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Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Green Mage, Mar 6, 2011.
Feraligatr wouldn't Hydro Pump, that's for wusses. He'd just Crunch them into dinner!
Breloom: He had Psychic
Sawk: Almost certainly Stone Miss.
Meh, IMO, the hardest fights in the game are Elesa [You can't hit her Emolgas with a Super Effective STAB, as the two Rock types at this point both get destroyed by Volt Switch, Sturdy lets you get one hit in though], and, N, only if you play like a man and ignore the Uber thrown in your face. [Otherwise, it's Gehetis]
Seriously, I had little trouble with Gehetis. That said, I had a Samuwott and Revenge'd Hydregion's face in.
That said... I swept N by Acupressureing almost everything to +6 on a Maractus [Stupid Sp.Attk took forever to get...], in the face of his Carracosta. Water Absorb made half it's movepool useless, and my Maracrus was Bold with a 31 Defense IV...
Also, I'm of the opinion that the B/W starters are even worse than the Jhoto ones. Serperior is replaced by Petilil after the 2nd Gym [Petilil outclasses Snivy since the moment you get it... then Quiver Dance Lilligant kills everything]. Darumakka is a million times better than Emboar, and Samuwott just fails, but is useable purely because of the lack of B/W water types.
B/W is the only game where I replace my starter. Even in Jhoto I don't. If only because Jhoto is so underleveled and is so annoying to grind in, and half of the Jhoto dex is trash anyway. [Some of it's awesome, like Tyranitar...]
I was gonna say BUT COUNTER, then I realised that Volcarona was special. >_>
Palpitoad vs. Elesa's Emolga x2
Darmanitan vs. Elesa's Zebstrika
Elesa killed my Roggenrola after it used Stealth Rock. But Palpitoad did its job of Supersonic and Bubblebeams. Darmanitan just Fire Punch'd.
My toughest fight was against Kyurem.
Agreeing with the power of Samurott. Most i got from it was from flinching + Aqua Jet OR Razor Shell + Aqua Jet. Was bulky, but replaced it with Basculin once i found an Adaptability. Soak is fun.
Gah, that Hydreigon was a prick for me the first time I played through this, because I basically soloed the game with Emboar, which kept getting KOd by Surf.
I understand the dislike for Unova starters, but I personally got over it.
Samurott is bulkier than Basculin, which allows it take even Super-Effective hits. Plus, Basculin's coverage mid- to late-game is kinda stinky. I was actually wanting to use one during my Snivy playthrough at some point, but ultimately went with Simipour because that monkey fills a similar role while also providing better coverage with slightly more options (Work Up). So, in the end, if you absolutely wanted to replace Oshawott, you might as well just spend the extra time in Pinwheel Forest to find a Panpour or something, although I'd recommend sticking with the otter because of the natural bulk and overall coverage you'll get mid-game and beyond. I like Basculin, though. He's a cool guy, etc.
Serperior is still better than most other Grass-types you can get, especially Lilligant. See, Petilil requires an Evolutionary Stone that isn't directly handed to you before your third Gym Badge and then will need a Heart Scale if you level it beyond Lv28. And for what? A Pokemon with less overall stats than the Starter and less coverage. Despite Snivy's Coil coming a little later, it's at the same level it evolves into the final stage (Lv36 on Servine) and is just as helpful given the role Serperior will play (Defensive and supportive). During my Snivy run, I was very close to replacing the sucker but I stuck with him and it paid off.
I do have mixed feelings about Emboar. On one hand, Fire/Fight is getting tired. I wish he was something different. On the other hand, he played very well during my Tepig playthrough. I took him as he was, a fairly well built double-type with great coverage. The thing was able to plow through a lot of trainers mid-game and I was consistently impressed with . Granted, he plays similarly to Darmanitan (whom of which I also really like), but the Fighting-type offers more defensive play by adding some resistances (Dark resist and Rock neutrality, especially) that helped out in a few Gyms and in the E4. In the end, I see him as a Fighting-type starter with a 75BP Flame Charge, which isn't bad in the slightest.
See, the starters take a little longer to pay off but, by the time you hit the 5th or 6th Gym, they begin to grow into their fullest potential which is better than most replacements. I'm not trying to convince anyone to like them, but to respect them for what they are.
An NPC gives you the Sun Stone in Nimbasa, and you shouldn't be using Grass Pokemon against the third Gym anyway unless you like being roflstomped.
Sorry, I didn't elaborate on those ideas. I was attempting to say that Lilligant isn't worth waiting so long to get the Stone, while also attempting to say that the Monkeys are worth using the Stones because you get them earlier (before your third Gym). See, I was using the third Gym Badge as a unit of measurment, not saying you'd use the Pokemon in the Gym. Sorry, it came out all wrong lol.
I'll try to elaborate a little better on my stance, though.
Lilligant is better than Servine.
Serperior is better than Lilligant.
This makes Lilligant better earlier on but Serperior better in the late-game. But since the Gyms are basically anti-Grass mid-game, Lilligant's marginally higher SpAtk is near meaningless in comparison to Serperior's greatly improved bulk and speed for the late-game.
Well, the whole God damn game is anti-grass, so maybe it's all moot.
bulk doesn't matter as much as offence.
also, 75 base attack is laughable compared to 110 base Special Attack. that's not a marginal difference.
Serperior is far worse than lilligant.
Also Quiver Dance+Petal Dance >>>>> Coil+Leaf Blade.
At this point I just hope I wasn't the only one to go looking for Cynthia swimming alone.
My mistake, I meant to remove "marginally" since I had restructured that sentence.
Why doesn't bulk matter as much as offense?
How is Serperior far worse than Lilligant?
Is it just Quiver Dance? How is it better than Coil? Because it boosts Speed instead of Accuracy?
Is it Petal Dance? How does that factor in when Lilligant gets Petal Dance at Lv46?
How is Petal Dance better than Leaf Blade? Is locking yourself into the same move 2-3 turns better than a higher Critical Hit ratio?
Is Own Tempo + Petal Dance a lot better than Overgrow + Leaf Blade?
How much Speed above Serperior would Lilligant have with one Quiver Dance if both Pokemon were the same level and Nature?
Well, I understand what makes Lilligant a relatively good Pokemon. I have no arguments about it and of itself. What I'm curious about is how Serperior is "so horrible" but Lilligant is "oh so good". They seem to be on equal footing with all things considered. Not this over-reaction of Serperior being a shit-turd and Lilligant being some savant.
Looking over Serperior's movepool:
Coil / Glare / Leaf Blade / Dragon Tail
Sounds rad. I'm going to try it.
Basically B/W tried to make making a F/W/G core really easy but ended up making most of the wild ones better than the starters. Serperior is Meganium with more speed and worse offenses, Emboar is fat Blaziken, and Samurott is Feraligatr with a smaller movepool and better SpA.
Cue everyone picking Oshawott because it's less bad than the others.
I dunno man, this is most of the reason I picked Oshawott back in March...
Skorpius, because Serperior has only one stat - Speed. Defenses are very good but nothing spectacular. Attacks are simply bad. NFE usually hit harder than Serperior. In-game Atk/SpAtk are the most important stats - you want to OHKO as much as possible because you fight vs millions of weaker Pokemon and constant healing is pain in the ass. Serperior has no moves. Really, no moves. Like other Grass types... Serperior has weak moves - Leaf Blade being strongest because you don't like -2 SpAtk on something that is supposed to kill 10 opponents in row.
80 BP move with horrible coverage coming of 75 base Atk. Kind of pitiful.
On the other hand you have Lilligant. After Quiver Dance or two, you simply don't care about resists. Especially with 120 BP STAB coming of really good 110 SpAtk and no drawbacks (Own Tempo). You have Sleep Powder (also useful for catching).
Both have Giga Drain. Only Lilligant can OHKO something with it.
Yeah, I know, Snivy looks great (imo best Grass starter) while Tepig and Oshawott are ugly as hell (both are imo the worst of their types, especially otter). Unfortunately, only Samurott and Emboar can do something more than subseed. Also, Samurott faces no competition (okay, Carracosta is slightly better however you might want to get Archeops). Emboar and Serperior are severely outclassed (Darmanitan/Chandelure [Larvesta is too hard to get and train imo] and Simisage/Leavanny/Lilligant/Maractus/Sawsbuck/Ferrothorn respectively).
Dragon Tail - kind of fun but useful only with ton of entry hazards.
You know that there exists nsfw ending of that comic? ;>
I chose Oshawott because of Samurott, planning to evolve it as soon as possible. Megahorn is badass \m/
Progeusz: Serperior [is] severely outclassed [by] Simisage/Leavanny/Lilligant/Maractus/Sawsbuck/Ferrothorn.
QFT. Plus I always pick the Water starter when I start a new game... Except HG, because I couldn't say no to Chikorita's face. SO DAMN CUTE.
I only picked Wotter because I've never picked the Water starter. SoulSilver and White were when I decided to try out the water guys. I wish I could use Charmander in ever game, though. Or Turtwig. Torterra was rad.
yeah, Maractus as well. It has 11 base Atk more, 31 base SpAtk more, Synthesis and powerful Petal Dance. With Cotton Guard it takes hits much better than Serperior with Coil. Sucker Punch might prove useful as well. It really hurts me to say that but yeah, in-game Maractus is better than Serperior.
Heart Gold... only game where Water was my first choice (you know, physical split is huge boost to Feraligatr and little nerf to Typhlosion - Thunderpunch).
See, now I can't take you seriously. 75/67/67 defenses, 60 Speed. So Synthesis doesn't help out much. Petal Dance at Lv38 locks it into confusion, Sucker Punch doesn't get STAB and is at Lv42, and Cotton Guard is almost completely irrelevant because it's at Lv55. You trollin' me, bro.
No. We're talking about in-game. Have you EVER cared about confusion after Thrash etc.? You simply switch out. It's not Battle Tower. EVs/nature let you outspeed potentially faster Pokemon.
Defenses are irrelevant if you ohko your opponent. Sucker Punch is for picking off something that has low HP and outspeeds you. Still is better than lolSlam or lolReturn on Serperior. I'm just naming options.
Petal Dance is easily the best grass type move in-game. Immense power and great PP.
@Arcticblast, sorry ^^"
Yeah, you're trolling me.
Sorry for popping bubble filled with love towards Serperior. I like him a lot however he's really weak. I admit, 'severely' was too much. However... I can't say that Serperior is better. Not when he fails to 1hko anything without Grass weakness. On the other hand, anything is usable in-game.
btw nice level of replying, maybe try to think of something constructive.