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Gen 3 RoA Speed CCAT - [DONE]

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by sandshrewz, Mar 18, 2013.

  1. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    I like Sir's suggestions. Also the lead probably shouldn't be Moltres, perhaps Metagross would work best?
  2. Ryanor

    Ryanor

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    Metagross would be great. Pokemon such as Forretress, Skarmory and Cloyster who start in the lead position would be punished by Hidden Power and Psychic.

    I like Pory too.
  3. Danilo

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    i think gengar or celebi should lead. probably gengar.
  4. Lavos Spawn

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    i like sir's p2 for this team, and gengar or metagross should lead.
  5. sandshrewz

    sandshrewz
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    Step 5b: Moltres Move Replacement Voting

    Okay adding Sir's P2!!

    [​IMG]
    Moltres @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 40 HP / 252 SAtk / 216 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Fire Blast
    - Hidden Power Ice
    - Sunny Day
    - Morning Sun
    >Will-O-Wisp somewhere

    [​IMG]
    Metagross @ Leftovers
    Trait: Clear Body
    EVs: 188 HP / 160 Atk / 160 SpA
    Brave Nature
    - Psychic
    - Hidden Power Fire
    - Meteor Mash
    - Explosion

    [​IMG]
    Gengar @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 40 Atk / 216 SpA / 252 Spe
    Hasty Nature
    - Thunderbolt
    - Ice Punch
    - Explosion
    - Hypnosis

    [​IMG]
    Dugtrio @ Choice Band
    Trait: Arena Trap
    EVs: 8 HP / 208 Atk / 40 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly or Adamant
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide
    - Hidden Power [Bug]
    - Aerial Ace

    [​IMG]
    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 240 HP / 128 Def / 140 Spd
    Bold Nature
    - Baton Pass
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Calm Mind

    [​IMG]
    Porygon2 @ Leftovers
    Trait: Trace
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SAtk
    Modest Nature
    - Thunderbolt
    - Ice Beam
    - Recover
    - Thunder Wave

    Time to decide which move to replace on Moltres
    Replace Hidden Power Ice
    Replace Sunny Day

    Replace Morning Sun
    Meanwhile, continue to discuss the lead since there's no consensus at it :O! The voting will last ~24 concurrent with lead discussion.
  6. Crystal_

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    Hidden Power Ice

    Lead: Metagross

    The team looks a bit weak to Snorlax (?)
  7. BKC

    BKC
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    Morning Sun

    Lead: Metagross
  8. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Morning Sun

    Lead: Metagross

    Maybe even HP Grass > HP Ice to hit waters and Tyranitar on the switch in case Metagross/Dug struggle to do their jobs (for Metagross in particular, maybe they predict the bomb and switch that Suicune out, or Substitute shenanigans happen, or that Milotic hits us with Hypno) and, in general, to make support between Moltres and its teammates less of a one-way street. Of course, then the Mence and (to a lesser extent) Aero problems are magnified a bit by Moltres's inability to outright smash them, but at least WoW is guaranteed to ruin them (if it hits), whereas for most bulky waters it's more of an inconvenience than a wrecker.
  9. Ryanor

    Ryanor

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    Hidden Power Ice

    Lead: Metagross
  10. Danilo

    Danilo
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    leading with metagross guarantees any skarm lead 2 layers of spikes ._.

    morning sun

    lead: gengar
  11. sandshrewz

    sandshrewz
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    Step 6: Final Adjustments

    Not a lot of votes but let's move on~


    [​IMG]
    Metagross @ Leftovers
    Trait: Clear Body
    EVs: 188 HP / 160 Atk / 160 SpA
    Brave Nature
    - Psychic
    - Hidden Power Fire
    - Meteor Mash
    - Explosion

    [​IMG]
    Moltres @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 40 HP / 252 SAtk / 216 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Fire Blast
    - Hidden Power Ice
    - Sunny Day
    - Will-O-Wisp

    [​IMG]
    Gengar @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 40 Atk / 216 SpA / 252 Spe
    Hasty Nature
    - Thunderbolt
    - Ice Punch
    - Explosion
    - Hypnosis

    [​IMG]
    Dugtrio @ Choice Band
    Trait: Arena Trap
    EVs: 8 HP / 208 Atk / 40 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly or Adamant
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide
    - Hidden Power [Bug]
    - Aerial Ace

    [​IMG]
    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 240 HP / 128 Def / 140 Spd
    Bold Nature
    - Baton Pass
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Calm Mind

    [​IMG]
    Porygon2 @ Leftovers
    Trait: Trace
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SAtk
    Modest Nature
    - Thunderbolt
    - Ice Beam
    - Recover
    - Thunder Wave

    The final touches to the team?? Suggest fine tuning if there's a need to :)! After this, we're (nearly) done!
  12. Awoken

    Awoken

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    Metagross lead is free spikes, which is terrible for a spinner-less team, so lead with Gengar as Sir suggested. With some spikes up, Salamence/Aerodactyl/etc. can easily break through Porygon2. Also lead Suicune can be dangerous (both offensive CM and especially CM roar), so you really don't want to be put into a situation where you either give it a free CM or explode blindly.
    Opposing Roar Zapdos may also prove troublesome. You would probably need a well-timed explosion to take it down.
  13. Crystal_

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    What about eving Gengar to survive Aero's Rock Slide then? Aero looks like a huge pain to this team.
  14. Danilo

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    ladies and gents we have a suicune problem
  15. Jorgen

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    Isn't the plan against Suicune to either blow up on it or set up CMs with Celebi? I feel like with this team, we're inevitably going to have to deal with Suicune a bit more offensively than normal if we're going to be able to preserve our offensive core.

    Gengar always has a chance to survive a Jolly RS at full health regardless (Adamant is a different story), and I think we'd need to pump too many EVs away from offenses if we're to guarantee survivial, especially since there's still the flinch chance that could screw us over.

    Personally, I feel that Moltres should not have HP Ice as I first suggested, but instead should have Hidden Power Grass. I touched on this briefly before, but basically, it makes Moltres less support-dependent and, in fact, allows it to bait and cripple some of its common switch-ins so that Metagross doesn't have to Explode on them.
  16. Danilo

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    I feel that using Toxic > Will-O-Wisp accomplishes the same thing as what you're suggesting. We really don't have a great switch into Suicune. CM Roar destroys us but CM Roar admittedly destroys a lot of things. Even if we go to +6 with Celebi as Suicune boosts up with us what are we passing to? None of our receivers are actually doing much to Suicune. In the few games I've played, even though I haven't played very many games, the only way to deal with Suicune effectively is to boom on it.

    Now, onto using Toxic > Will-O-Wisp. I haven't made the change yet but it sounds near perfect on paper. Moltres has problems with Water-types, Snorlax, and Blissey. With the exception of Suicune since Suicune can CM against Moltres, landing a Toxic on say a Swampert or a Milotic is very helpful toward a Moltres sweep, especially if we can pass it a CM. Against Snorlax we have to do a little scouting first. If it's Immunity Lax then we do a ton of damage to it with a Fire Blast in the sun. If it's Thick Fat then we can wear it down with Toxic. Forcing Snorlax to Rest prematurely makes luring it with Gengar much easier. Blissey really isn't a huge problem. We have Dugtrio and Gengar; the latter is a very good lure for Blissey. Also, I was playing a game yesterday where I passed a CM to Moltres and I got the sun up as my opponent switched to Blissey. Fire Blast was nearly a 2HKO. I'm sure Fire Blast will 2HKO Calm Mind Blissey since my opponent was using what seemed to be a very bulky Blissey since its Ice Beam did nothing to my Dugtrio. Landing a Toxic on the switch while the sun is up makes life very difficult for Blissey. Finally, Toxic means that we have to rely less on Metagross for booming on Water-types. I think this team is good but we need to figure out a way around this Suicune weakness, IMO.
  17. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    This team is pretty fast-paced, though. Do we really have time to wait for Toxic to whittle down its targets? I guess that's what testing is for.
  18. Danilo

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    I think we can. I had a long game versus a good player yesterday. The only way this team can survive for a long time is to prevent Spikes from coming down. That's why lead Gengar is necessary.
  19. sandshrewz

    sandshrewz
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    I'm probably going to rely on some consensus here before we can call this done. Unless we get like 2 different but also good options then we vote ~ :)
  20. Danilo

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    can we get some extra time? i've been testing different versions of this team and idk which one is better O_O
  21. sandshrewz

    sandshrewz
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    Yea just don't take too long xD Thank you for testing it!! :)
  22. Ryanor

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    Once Metagross blows up, this team just can't do anything to CurseLax.
  23. Kennen

    Kennen dont you worry child

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    Toxic > Sunny Day
    Rest > Morning Sun
  24. Ryanor

    Ryanor

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    Using Rest on Moltres definitely would do the team more slow-paced than it should be, and I think that is not a good option. Anyways, Moltres hasn't Morning Sun in the current version and Sunny Day is pretty valuable.

    I've tested the team and I agree on leading with Gengar instead of Metagross.

    CurseLax still is a huge threat. After a single Curse, Explosion does around 40% and that's not enough.
  25. Danilo

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    So here's the version of the team that I have been using.

    Moltres @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 28 HP / 252 SAtk / 228 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Fire Blast
    - Sunny Day
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    I have found that lead Moltres isn't that bad. It beats Metagross, can Will-O-Wisp Snorlax early, and it beats Salamence. I'm not leading Gengar because I don't like leading with it unless it has Hypnosis. Too many Pursuit TTar.

    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 12 Def / 92 SAtk / 152 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Giga Drain
    - Baton Pass
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    The same thing but with more Speed. I found that Salamence is a threat so being able pass a CM to Metagross and tank the CB HP Flying is pretty important.

    Gengar (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 44 Def / 24 SAtk / 188 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Ice Punch
    - Taunt
    - Will-O-Wisp

    I made the spread defensive because Porygon2 wasn't performing well and I needed another way to deal with Mence. Taunt + WoW is sometimes less effective than Explosion but it still gets the job done against Blissey and Snorlax, sometimes.

    Dugtrio (M) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Arena Trap
    EVs: 224 Atk / 32 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide
    - Aerial Ace
    - Hidden Power [Bug]

    I'm using fewer Special Defense EVs so that offensive cune is less of a problem. this will be explained later.

    Metagross @ Leftovers
    Trait: Clear Body
    EVs: 196 HP / 176 Atk / 32 Def / 104 SAtk
    Naughty Nature (+Atk, -SDef)
    - Psychic
    - Meteor Mash
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Explosion

    Same thing with a much bulkier EV spread because I like bulk.

    Regice @ Chesto Berry
    Trait: Clear Body
    EVs: 252 HP / 136 Atk / 120 SAtk
    Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunderbolt
    - Explosion
    - Rest

    This is probably the most controversial change and I really have been having trouble this last set. I'm using Chesto Rest because it's cool but mostly because I want to be able to take Gengar's Will-O-Wisp, check Gengar, and still be able to boom on Snorlax/Blissey for maximum power. The set has been either really good or just okay in practice. I feel that has been better than Porygon2 though. The Attack EVs let you put 252 HP Suicune into a range where you can revenge kill with Dugtrio, in most scenarios(Suicune is rarely at 100% HP anyways when you go this route). This is why there a fewer Special Defense EVs on Dug, to ensure that you're killing Cune. It also helps vs Blissey! I EV'd Regice this way because I had a lot of trouble with offensive Cune. Defensive cune isn't a huge deal.

    What do you guys think? I'm still unsure about a few things

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