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Weavile(BW2 Revamp) [QC: 3/3][GP: 0/2]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by CedOmega, Jan 15, 2013.

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  1. CedOmega

    CedOmega

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    Please Read before proceeding (open)

    This is my first attempt at making a Pokémon Revamp, so if I've made any mistake, don't hold back in telling me. I'm really trying to become more involved with the site outside of OU RMTs.



    [​IMG]

    Weavile


    [Overview]

    <p>Since its debut, Weavile has always a niche Pokemon. However, the introduction to BW2 hasn't done much to change this. It is noteworthy that there are many Pursuit users, but only a few handful of Pokemon such as Weavile can really pull it off effectively, while not being a liability outside of Pursuit-trapping. Weavile also works well with new BW2 threats, such as Keldeo and Sheer Force Landorus, as its most common checks are included in the list of the select Pokemon Weavile can trap and KO. Ice Shard also revenge kills many dangerous threats, namely Rock Polish Landorus and +1 Salamence. Its amazing 125 base Speed allows it to outrun significant threats such as Alakazam, Starmie, and Scarftar. Combined with access to Pursuit, Weavile can prey on many top Ghost and Psychic types of OU; namely Latios, Gengar, and Starmie. However, life is not so sweet for Weavile. Both old and new counters still pose the biggest threat to its longevity in battle. Scizor, Gyarados, Keldeo, and Volcarona are still major problems for Weavile. Add a weakness to Stealth Rock and you'll find Weavile requiring a lot of support from its partners. As for its shortcomings, the lack of high-powered moves to complement its high Attack has to be its greatest flaw, as it struggles to maim Pokemon that it hits neutrally or even super effectively at times. Weavile has an especially tough time breaking past Water- and Steel-types taking neutral damage from Low Kick. Evaluating it all, one will see the reason behind Weavile remained OU in the previous generation.</p>

    [SET]
    Name: Physical Attacker
    Move 1: Ice Shard
    Move 2: Night Slash / Ice Punch
    Move 3: Pursuit
    Move 4: Low Kick
    Item: Life Orb
    Ability: Pressure/ Pick Pocket
    Nature: Jolly
    evs: 28 HP / 252 Atk / 228 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>The standard Life Orb set makes the most of Weavile's best attributes: base 120 Attack, 125 Speed, powerful STAB Pursuit, and priority Ice Shard. With these moves in tow, an Outraging Dragon is never truly safe, fearing a swift icicle to the face in the middle of its rampage. With 228 Speed investment, Weavile can outpace everything necessary in OU, while the remaining 28 HP EVs add bulk. The spread allows Weavile to be faster than Alakazam and anything slower, including Starmie, Latios, and Tornadus. While switching in is almost never advisable, Weavile can usually catch its targets after they take something else out, leaving them trapped, helpless, and vulnerable to the inevitable KO.</p>

    <p>Night Slash is preferred to be used when bulky Water threats pose a problem for its team. Night Slash also hits Pursuit targets for super effective damage, such as Jellicent and Starmie, thereby punishing these Pokemon if they are ever bold and decide to stay. Night Slash also allows Weavile to connect with Water-types (Rotom-W, Politoed, and Tentacruel) and Jirachi for strong neutral damage. On the other hand, Ice Punch is certainly useful for hitting Dragons Pokemon for strong damage, while actually threatening to KO Pokemon such as Hippowdon, Amoonguss, Gliscor, and Landorus-T if they decide to stay. It also punishes Conkeldurr that would otherwise set up on Weavile with ease.</p>

    <p>Pursuit is arguably one of the most useful moves in the game, punishing predicted switches and effectively trapping. Pokemon such as Alakazam, Gengar, Starmie, Latios, and Latias. Keep in mind that Latios and Latias may require prior damage to be KOed by Pursuit on the intended switch. Using this against bulky Psychic types, such as Reuniclus, is not advised, as they don't fear a weakened Pursuit while Weavile can be hit by a status move or Focus Blast.</p>

    <p>Low Kick rounds off Weavile's needed coverage, ensuring that it is not restricted to only two Base 40 power moves; Pursuit and Ice Shard. It is a major boon to Weavile's otherwise limited physical movepool, allowing it to lethally combat Steel-types, namely Ferrothorn, Heatran, and Magnezone. It's also essential in nabbing KOs against Tyranitar, Terrakion, Mamoswine, and offensive Kyurem-Black (after Stealth Rock).</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>This set will require plenty of switching, making entry hazards a considerable factor in how you'll play in the match. You're also going to want Rapid Spin somewhere on your team in order to allow Weavile to switch in a maximum number of times. Starmie and Forretress work well in this regard, but keep in mind you're going to have to decide between the lesser of two evils: a compounded Bug- or Fire-type weakness. To complement this, you'll really want something with Roar or Whirlwind on your team, preferably with a lot of physical bulk too. Gyarados, Skarmory, and Hippowdon immediately come to mind, though many notable walls will work well for this role and keep Weavile from becoming a liability once its done its job.</p>

    <p>Scizor and Volcarona checks are needed as well for Weavile to function efficiently. Terrakion and Dragonite handle Volcarona, Keldeo, and Landorus-T and check Scizor, while Gyarados deals with all three.</p>

    <p>Punishment is an option over Pursuit if your team needs some extra help in taking down bulky Calm Mind users. Calm Mind Latias, Reuniclus, and Jirachi are but a few examples that come to mind when considering Punishment. Another option for Weavile is Choice Band. Although it seems to bestow more power behind its attacks, it makes Weavile a very easy victim to a setup sweeper, such as Swords Dance Scizor. Having to choose between either Life Orb or Choice Band may be a difficult decision, although another item does make a nice alternative: Expert Belt. Expert Belt must be played very strategically, as it only grants its power boost when hitting super effectively. In a life or death situation, the standard items will serve you better.Brick Break could work over Low Kick, although you'll find the lack in damage inflicted will add up. Heavier foes are often its most common switch-ins, making Low Kick the superior choice.</p>

    [OTHER OPTIONS]

    <p>Fake Out and Counter on a lead set could work to lure out and eliminate threats, but Weavile is a much better niche abuser than a suicide lead. Swords Dance is an option over Pursuit, although Weavile doesn't find much time to set up in the current metagame and it would have to sacrifice its role as a revenge killer. Taunt is another option to help stop Volcarona and Gyarados from coming in and setting up on Weavile as they expect you switch out and score a +1. Pickpocket is an option over Pressure, being easier for Weavile to utilize such items as Ice Gem, Dark Gem, Focus Sash, and Fighting Gem.</p>

    [CHECKS AND COUNTERS]

    <p>Weavile as a plethora of counters that are very abundant in the OU tier. Consequently, these commonly come it the form of priority moves, such as Bullet Punch, Mach Punch, and ExtremeSpeed. Choice Scarf users are a huge threat to Weavile, as they easily outpace and KO Weavile easily, including Jirachi, Terrakion, and Heatran. Weavile also has a weak point to almost any defensively inclined Pokemon. Vaporeon, Gyarados, Forretress, and Skarmory wall almost all of its attacks; Vaporeon being especially troubling if Weavile lacks Night Slash. Skarmory and Forretress can use Weavile as an easy opportunity to set up entry hazards. Gyarados and Volcarona deserve special mentions, being very effective at walling Weavile with Ice Punch over Night Slash. Said threats can come in on, or after, a Pursuit or Ice Shard and set up in Weavile's face. Jirachi is a unique threat, as it can run a variety of sets that can either directly KO Weavile or status, often paralyze, it and spam Iron Head. Ice Punch variants that lack Night Slash often find themselves having a hard time denting Jirachi entirely. Scizor is Weavile's biggest direct threat, being able to come in easily and take little damage from all other attacks barring Low Kick and use either U-Turn or Bullet Punch to finish Weavile off. Fighting-types are generally good for keeping Weavile in check as well. Conkeldurr is easily Weavile's biggest threat among them, as it can Bulk Up on a Pursuit-locked Weavile and continue threatening the rest of its team, or KO instantly with Mach Punch. Lucario and Infernape resist both of its STABs and can either set up or KO with priority.</p>
  2. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    The formatting on the sets is wrong. It should look something like this:

    [SET]
    name: Physical Attacker
    move 1: Ice Shard
    move 2: Pursuit
    move 3: Low Kick
    move 4: Night Slash / Ice Punch
    item: Choice Band / Life Orb
    ability: Pressure
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe

    EVs absolutely MUST be in this order: HP / Atk / Def / SpA / SpD / Spe.

    Personally, I would make Physical Attacker the only set since it takes advantage of Weavile's niches in the best way possible and Swords Dance is outclassed. On top of that, the Lead set just isn't good in general. I would also make Ice Punch the first slash since it hits Tornadus-T harder and OHKOes YacheChomp, and also make it fast enough to outrun Tornadus-T (subject to change depending on the suspect test results, but regardless of the suspect test results Ice Punch is generally the better move)

    You also need to stress the fact that Weavile is one of the few Pokemon that outspeeds Tornadus-T, though this may change depending on the suspect test results. Also, I would remove Escavalier from Checks and Counters since it's nonviable in OU (and you already mentioned Scizor who is practically the same Pokemon but 100x better). Mention actually relevant Pokemon like Skarmory and Forretress. You should also give Pokemon like Rotom-W and Vaporeon strong mentions in C&C, especially if Weavile isn't running Night Slash (Rotom-W/Vaporeon can eat Low Kicks all day)
  3. TheWaddleDeeKing

    TheWaddleDeeKing

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    As LucaroarkZ said, Scizor does most of the sets mentioned much better than Weavile ever could. It doesn't help that Mamoswine also serves as a better attacker due to Thick Fat and equally satisfying attack. Honestly with all the Fighting-types with access to Mach Punch as well as Scizor himself, he's just hard to use. I actually recommend the SD set over the rest in my opinion, as Mamoswine basically took anything this guy could do when he got buffed up and amplified it, lacking only Swords Dance to further boost that awesome attack stat. I can see a CB set being viable for Psychic-types though.

    You also really need to mention his weaknesses. Only a select few Pokemon have the audacity to boost their ego by saying they have little flaws, and Weavile is not one of them. Between the common Mach Punch users like TechLoom and Bullet Punch Scizor, along with garbage defenses and a major weakness to all hazards, he really isn't as good as he used to. He fills a niche for being able to reliably kill Psychic-types like Latios as well as meddling Dragon-types like Salamence. For all other purposes, TechLoom, Gyarados and Scizor fill the roles perfectly.
  4. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    I was talking about how Scizor was 100x better than Escavalier, thus why Escavalier shouldn't be in C&C. That's what I was trying to say, not that Scizor is 100x better than Weavile. Scizor is most certainly not 100x better than Weavile, since Weavile does have its perks over it.

    Also, SD Weavile is outclassed by... Pretty much anything in OU that uses Swords Dance. Terrakion, Lucario, Scizor, Garchomp, you name it. Even with Swords Dance, Weavile is still easily walled due to its relatively low Base Power moves, while Terrakion/Lucario/Garchomp not so much. Scizor and Lucario both do SD + Priority better. The physical attacker set is the better set to use because its niches as a Pokemon are just being able to Pursuit trap and revenge kill Dragons at the same time. It also has its perks over Mamoswine, i.e. being able to outspeed and OHKO YacheChomp with Ice Punch. Mamoswine is slower and does not OHKO YacheChomp with Ice Shard. This is a big deal. Outspeeding Latios and Latias is also huge, which is a pretty big deal since Scizor may end up getting its ass handed to it by HP Fire. So, basically, if you need a Pursuit user and an Ice Shard user that can beat YacheChomp in some way, Weavile's your man. Swords Dance just doesn't accomplish this.
  5. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene ᴜияᴇᴄᴏɢиɪsαβʟᴇ
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    Hey. From prior experiences, the Physical Attacker set should be the top set, and if anything, it should be the only set listed. Thanks to its frailty, Weavile has practically no set-up opportunities in the current OU metagame, and as LucaroarkZ stated, its best niche is beating Dragons and YacheChomp (which can beat Mamoswine by the way), while acting as a Pursuit trapper that can beat the Lati twins without the use of a Choice Scarf. Provided Tornadus-T doesn't get the boot (which it most likely will), Weavile can boast that it is one of three Pokemon that has use in OU that can outspeed Tornadus-T without the use of a Choice Scarf or boosting move (the other two being Jolteon and Aerodactyl).
  6. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Yep, physical attacker is definitely the best. If those suspects get banned I really worry for it though. Checking torn-t and supporting keldeo are some of its greatest strengths. I'd probably still approve the physical attacker even then though - that fast, powerful pursuit is entirely unique. The other sets are really bad I'm afraid. SD is very hard to set up, and even then is weaker than and effectively slower than lucario. Fast taunt is not enough on its own for a lead - unless it's something special, you don't really want to have a fixed lead any more.
  7. CedOmega

    CedOmega

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    Ok. Thanks for these tips everyone. Seeing as it's my first attempt at this, I knew I'd make some mistakes. Anyways, I'll make the changes around noon tomarrow when I'm free.

    Thanks again, and keep the suggestions coming, please.

    EDIT: Fixed up some of the things suggested. I hope noone minds, but I took the liberty of quoting some of the things I neglected to point out. Thank you to everyone for helping me.
  8. CedOmega

    CedOmega

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    Also, wondering if Pickpocket should deserve to even be mentioned?
  9. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

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    Life Orb > Choice Band for sure. Choice Band is AC mention tbh. Choice locked ice moves suck and Pursuit is even worse (just let your team get swept by Lucario or Terrakion why don't you?!?!). Ice Punch > Night slash. Everything you want to hit with the dark move you will Pursuit for heavy to fatal damage.

    Weavile is NOT outclassed by Scizor. Weavile outspeeds EVERYTHING that it needs to Pursuit. That is deserving enough. Weavile doesn't give a damn if you switch our not because it is going to make it's trap. Weavile traps EVERYTHING that is anti-spikes as well - Espeon, Xatu, Starmie cough cough.

    Swords Dance Weavile I haven't tried but should work fine in this metagame. It is fast and Ice / Dark / Fighting is awesome coverage. Most offensive teams don't wanna fuck with it. Again, haven't tried it yet, but it shoulds good with Magnezone.
  10. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    RestTalk Gyarados can be added as a counter to the Physical Attacker set:

    -1 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 86-101 (21.82 - 25.63%) -- possible 4HKO after Stealth Rock

    meanwhile, even without investment:

    0 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 148-175 (51.21 - 60.55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  11. CedOmega

    CedOmega

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    Changes Made.
  12. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    Pickpocket deserves a mention, but just mention why it should absolutely never be used, and why doing so will prevent you from getting headaches.

    Additionally, please un-bold the set; the other analyses don't do that.

    I also agree with Life Orb being the primary item over Choice Band, since Weavile has the potential to become a good cleaner with decent coverage, and being locked into a weak Ice- or Dark-type move isn't that hot when Steel-types can easily switch in and do horrible things later. The boost from Life Orb should also suffice to KO the targets it should be hitting; Tornadus-T dies after Stealth Rock damage and a turn of Life Orb damage from Pursuit, while 252/0 Latios and Latias are pretty much KO'd no matter what. You must mention, however, that these threats can try playing smart by staying in, take a weaker Pursuit, and attempt to damage Weavile in their last moments.

    I'll try out Swords Dance, though currently I have a low opinion of it due to its relative reliance on the boost in addition to the threats that can revenge kill it.
  13. CedOmega

    CedOmega

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    Ok AccidentalGreed, I'll add the above changes right away. The set is bolded due to a technical error I was having earlier. Sorry, I must have forgotten to unbold it; my mistake. Thanks.

    EDIT: Also, I forgot how to multiquote, so I wasn't able to do that while responding earlier, neither. Sorry.
  14. Layell

    Layell Alas poor Yorick!
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    I'll make the point that Weavile can make a suicidal use of Pickpocket with Focus Sash or a gem. That would be the only use of it.
  15. CedOmega

    CedOmega

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    I've actually tested out PickPocket upon its release back in BW1. With Sash, it doesn't take the item after Sash's activation; which leaves something to be desired. Thief and KnockOff are actually better moves to use over the ability itself. A Gem could work, however, but it'd need to be used when Weavile is sure to survive the attack.
  16. Rhys DeAnno

    Rhys DeAnno Slacking Off

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    Relevantly for the LO/CB discussion, if Torn-T isn't banned, Weavile needs either a CB or to run Ice Punch.

    252Atk Life Orb Weavile (Neutral) Ice Shard vs 4HP/0Def Tornadus Therian (Neutral): 66% - 78% (198 - 234 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    252Atk Choice Band Weavile (Neutral) Ice Shard vs 4HP/0Def Tornadus Therian (Neutral): 74% - 88% (224 - 266 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    LO Ice Shard rarely kills even with rocks, CB Ice Shard almost always does. Of course sometimes you will pursuit if you think it'll switch out, but not being able to back that decision up with a kill is pretty bad.
  17. Deglas

    Deglas

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    As someone who has been using Weavile recently, I wish to say a few things.

    First, Life Orb is much better than Choice Band the ability to switch moves is much more useful than the power increase. Swords Dance does not work well enough to use, due to the abundance of Fighting attacks, as well as Weavile being to frail to set up.

    Second, you might wish to mention in OO that you can chose to forsake Low Kick for the ability to run both Night Slash and Ice Punch. This is very situational, and works best when partnered with Magnezone, but it can be useful to have both.

    Third, given the slightly unusual EV spread, you might wish to explain it. The 224 Speed EVs outspeed Tornadus-T and below, and increasing them to max will only serve to allow Speed ties with opposing Base 125s, namely Weavile, Swellow and Darkrai, and neither of the latter will appear in an OU match. The 32 HP Evs are there to make Weavile a tad more durable.

    Fourth, mention that Life Orb Ice Punch has a 87.5% to OHKO Dragonite through Multiscale. Here is the calc:

    252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs 4 HP/0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 98.15% -114.81% 87.5% chance to OHKO

    This is most useful against Dragon Dance Dragonite, which often chooses to Dragon Dance then Extremespeed when facing Weavile and at full health.
  18. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    I guess the main argument against it is that RestTalk isn't that great this gen, so no one really uses that Gyarados anymore. The Bulky Support could be a check though, as it can Paralyze it (nerfing Weavile's speed, one of its main niches) or just destroy with Waterfall.
  19. CedOmega

    CedOmega

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    Gyarados with T-wave are very rarely seen in the current meta. Gyarados itself is rarely seen in OU nowadays. Although, I'll keep Gyarados in mind should its popularity go on the rise.



    Changes made, open to more Changes/OO/C&C suggestions.
  20. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    Since you've rightfully removed SD and the lead set, you'd best remove mentions to those sets in the rest of the analysis to reflect that. Stuff like

    and
    and
    need to be removed.

    Just saying though, at least at my brief look through this, the skeleton looks very messy and some stuff in there doesn't sound like you've used Weavile very much at all. The EVs line should read evs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe and Hitmontop being a good partner to Weavile (I mean, he's not BAD, but seriously, if Hitmontop is the first Rapid Spinner you can think of for OU, you should stop writing now) doesn't help.

    EDIT: Oh yeah, since Tornadus-T is banned now, change the EVs to 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe.
  21. CedOmega

    CedOmega

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    Sorry for the inconvieniance, but all changes will be made on Tuesday. Thank you.
  22. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Hi and good luck on your first attempt. Here are a few suggestions:

    • Remove the bit about Pickpocket from the AC of the set
    • Add Deo-D and Gengar as partners. Weavile works very good in offensive teams that use the above Pokemon and makes sure that even if Starmie kills Gengar, Weavile will then trap and OHKO it
    • Volcarona usually walls Weavile unless SR is up and you are using Night Slash. Mentioning teammates that can check Volcarona is appropriate, and some good ones are Terrakion, Gyarados, and Heatran
  23. CedOmega

    CedOmega

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    Changes made. Thanks to everyone for your help and support!
  24. AJC

    AJC

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    brick break isn't worth the extra power on chansey/blissey (low kick is 15 less BP on them) over low kick when low kick gets powerful hits on many much more dangerous OU threats like heatran ferrothorn t-tar terrakion kyurem-b mamoswine

    it's just not worth the drop in power on these threats and i think it not even OO material anymore.
  25. CedOmega

    CedOmega

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    Yeah, I can see your point about BrickBreak. I'll take it off of the OO.
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