I'm saying "one side" here, not necessarily mine exactly :)
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More Thoughts on Stealth Rock
- Thread starter MythTrainerInfinity
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Kay, your argument is terrible.
The point isn't that 4 or 5 Pokemon would benefit becaues they wouldn't take 50% damage. It's also the fact that a lot less pokemon would take 25%. My argument is this. Spikes takes 3 turns to get 25% damage. SR. Takes one to do 25% or 50% to super effective switch-ins. It hits everything. So, every Pokemon with a Focus Sash loses that ability automatically. 25% Damage is substantial as well. It practically ruins any pokemon that is Super Effected by rock.
How do you propose we figure out if SR is broken if we don't test it? Also, you aren't even looking at my argument. Not once did I say we can't use Charizard. I named the Pokemon that take 50% damage from SR. If you want, I'll name every Pokemon that takes 25% damage from SR, and then we can start to see the big picture.
The point isn't that 4 or 5 Pokemon would benefit becaues they wouldn't take 50% damage. It's also the fact that a lot less pokemon would take 25%. My argument is this. Spikes takes 3 turns to get 25% damage. SR. Takes one to do 25% or 50% to super effective switch-ins. It hits everything. So, every Pokemon with a Focus Sash loses that ability automatically. 25% Damage is substantial as well. It practically ruins any pokemon that is Super Effected by rock.
EQ isn't an automatic hit that no one can avoid, and no one can get in a hit before hand. EQ just happens to be the most effective Ground Attack, but is easily countered. There isn't a scenario (unless you have a poorly constructed team or it's late in the battle) where EQ will just rip through every single Pokemon you have, without a chance to counter. SR can do that.
Are Gyarados and Salamence the only two Pokemon from the Advanced generation that got a benefit from the Satk / Atk split? No. There are many others. I think that without SR some of the BL/UU Pokemon could be more prominent in the OU metagame because of the absence of SR.
The metagame as it is right now circles around SR. The only way to see if it is broken is to test a metagame without it, and see the effect that has. How else would you propose we do it?
"Is the current metagame too imbalanced?"Pink said:
"No"
"OK stealth rock isn't broken then"
testing a metagame absent of Stealth Rock can only tell us whether a SRless metagame is "better" or not. And even that's arguable.
What Blame said. Even though I'm insulted that he seems to be quoting me or something.
Pokemon take damage from SR. Wow, what a surprise. So, how is that broken? And do you really want 6 random sweepers with Focus Sashes?
Only if you 1. have several Pokemon on your team weak to Rock, which would be retarded even if SR was banned or 2. Your Pokemon are ridiculously beaten up anyways. Just like EQ can rip through your team if you have a bunch of Pokes weak to ground.
...like?
What effect? A metagame without SR is different, sure. But how are you going to prove it's better one way or another?
and that's fine, but we need a little more than "well yep everyone who wants an SR test thinks the metagame is imbalanced!" we need to actually define what's acceptable in terms of balance, or otherwise everyone will change their minds about the balance of the game whenever something new comes up that irritates them.
edit: also sorry on the quoting mistake, lol
edit: also sorry on the quoting mistake, lol
Not to change the subject, but I never really saw why those moves were banned. Sure they're annoying, but also really risky to waste turns on moves that have a good chance on doing nothing.
Back on topic, I really don't see the huge problem with stealth rock. Sure it's centralizing, but if you don't like it you can take action against it. Taunt and rapid spin aren't as hard to fit in a moveset as many people claim. You just have to be smart about it.
And while I agree it might be refreshing to see more of the fire, flying, and bug types that have been quite rare in the metagame, things would simply centralize in another annoying way. Focus sash strategies are hard to set up, and for good reason. Many of the fragile sweepers only need one free turn to reap havoc on an entire team.
Sure it's centralizing, but it's not broken or unfair. It's just one of those things you have to learn to deal with.
Interesting ideas, but too much theorymoning going on in here. Chances are, if it does get banned, the changes wont bee too radical. (who really wants to use Moltres anyways?)
You seemed to have missed the point of Kay's argument. From the "How to argue and start discussions" thread:
If usage in teams = ban, then you have to look at all the other moves commonly used in teams to see if that is really true. Kay picked EQ in his argument.
And I argued that EQ isn't broken because it isn't an automatic, switch-in damager. I'm not arguing that Bronzong's SR should be tested but Steelix's shouldn't. Every SR should be tested. EQ isn't overcentralizing. SR is.
Fighting Ground and Steel are really the only safe types from SR. Otherwise, you're taking upwards of 12.5% damage from switching in. Also, going back to the RMT. When I looked, every team that was rated that didn't run SR was recomended to get SR. Going back to an allusion of Brawl...
Metaknight has been recomended for banning by the Smash world Forums crew. They basically encompass every pro player there is. One person gave a perfect argument for the banning of said character. (paraphrasing from memory)
SR is doing this, in my opinion. If you don't have SR, you put yourself at a distinct disadvantage.
Sure, many teams run EQ, but you're not murdered if you don't have it. HP Ground can pick up the slack. Earth Power, Mud Bomb, both attacks can be used in exchange for EQ.
When you can do over 100% damage in a single match just from having pokemon switch in, I'd say that is broken. You keep over looking my arguments. I'm not arguing that Charizard and Moltres will be better. I'm arguing that SR does too much unavoidable damage and that it's ruining teams.Kay said:
Fighting Ground and Steel are really the only safe types from SR. Otherwise, you're taking upwards of 12.5% damage from switching in. Also, going back to the RMT. When I looked, every team that was rated that didn't run SR was recomended to get SR. Going back to an allusion of Brawl...
Metaknight has been recomended for banning by the Smash world Forums crew. They basically encompass every pro player there is. One person gave a perfect argument for the banning of said character. (paraphrasing from memory)
This player MAINS Metaknight, and is supporting the ban of him, because he has seen that nearly every player that hopes to succeed in Tournament Play needs to at least have Meta as a secondary character because he's such a godly force. Not playing Meta puts you at a distinct disadvantage. He's centralizing the game around himself.
SR is doing this, in my opinion. If you don't have SR, you put yourself at a distinct disadvantage.
Sure, many teams run EQ, but you're not murdered if you don't have it. HP Ground can pick up the slack. Earth Power, Mud Bomb, both attacks can be used in exchange for EQ.
Then your argument has nothing to do with that Kay said or what I said.
Ruining teams how? By punishing people for switching in? If anything, that would increase the amount of skill required to play the game effectively. With Stealth Rock, Pokemon now have limited switch-ins, which makes the trainer who can maximize their pokemon's power by minimizing the number of times they have to switch the better trainer.
I believe differently. Simply using SR does not win you games. SR might make the difference between a win and a loss between two evenly matched players, but unlike Meta Knight, using SR cannot magically help you beat a better player not using SR. In addition, if you look at a lot of pokemon analyses, Stealth Rock is not recommended on certain pokemon like Tyrannitar because "they have better things to do." What? Better things than Stealth Rock? Does not having Stealth Rock on Tyrannitar put you at a distinct disadvantage like not using Metaknight does? I think not. Pokemon who use Stealth Rock(in most cases) have nothing better to do because they have obvious moves and common switch-ins/counters which they do little against(think Hippowdown, Swampert, or even Heatran) or they lack the offensive power to threaten the opposing pokemon(think Blissey, Skarmory, Forretress). In both cases, it is better to set up Stealth Rocks to support your team than to hit an incoming pokemon for minimal damage.
Sure, but in the end, you're still using a ground move, and EQ is still the best ground move because of its higher base power,the fact that most pokemon who learns it also learns EQ, and even then, they have a higher base Atk than SpAtk, the fact that the group of pokemon who learn it are not viable in OU, and that so many pokemon can learn EQ but not EP. So you're at a "distinct disadvantage" because you chose to use a ground move other than EQ.
First, I would like that thank you for rebutting thoughtfully. Really, no sarcasm here.
Now...
Also, to bring up another point to illustrate the centralization around SR... Spikes and toxic spikes used to be pretty common (when the Metagame was still evolving from the Adv. generation) However, now I rearely see them used to the extent they were because SR is the obvious choice for maximum, easy to set up damage. Also, many people have simply given up on Rapid Spin (I know I have) because of the ease of setting SR up. Bronzong can sit there all day and set SR up without fear of being hurt by Rapid Spin. Same with Steelix and Metagross. And, they have formidable weapons to deal with common Spinners like Starmie and Forretress.
Now...
But instead of switching less, Pokemon that take 12.5% or under damage from SR are free two switch in, thus, centralizing teams to Steels (primarily, from what I've seen), Grounds, and the likes. Metagross and Bronzong can switch in multiple times without fear of getting completely demolished. (These are just examples. There are obviously more than just these two Pokemon.)guoguo said:
Yes, but the SR sets have become more and more prominent on many teams because it is just such a great asset. Either that, or trainers add a "less useful" pokemon just for the addition of SR, then usually blow up in the opponent's face.guoguo said:
I don't see not having EQ as a distinct disadvantage. Sure, you may have an disadvantage, but it's certainly not game breaking.gougou said:
Also, to bring up another point to illustrate the centralization around SR... Spikes and toxic spikes used to be pretty common (when the Metagame was still evolving from the Adv. generation) However, now I rearely see them used to the extent they were because SR is the obvious choice for maximum, easy to set up damage. Also, many people have simply given up on Rapid Spin (I know I have) because of the ease of setting SR up. Bronzong can sit there all day and set SR up without fear of being hurt by Rapid Spin. Same with Steelix and Metagross. And, they have formidable weapons to deal with common Spinners like Starmie and Forretress.
Quite odd for a personal opinion seeing as i've seen the exact same opinion about 50 times in this topic
Showing signs of 'brokeness' is completely subjective, when Garchomp was tested you also had 'two' different metagames. There were many people that thought (and no those are not noobs) both were not broken.
Just like always have been people will have to vote which one they prefer the most
Thanks, you too :D
I don't think we have a sure way of knowing that is true. First of all, many of the OU Steels are good in themselves because of their great stats and numerous resists. Four out of the nine OU steels don't even resist SR. That said, the SR resist might really be the reason they're used so much. Or perhaps Salamence is the secret centralizing force in OU which makes carrying Steel types obligatory for teams. I don't think we'll know for sure until the test is over.
I admit that the suicide SR lead is an exception to what I said. But as they become common, they also risk predictability and will get specialized counters. While SR is a prominent part of the metagame, I don't think the Why and How they are a part of the metagame can be pinned down exactly.
I, too, have given up on Rapid Spin, though admittedly, I never thought that having a spinner was a completely necessary part of team building. The fact that SR and new Rotoms renders Rapid Spin obsolete doesn't necessarily make Stealth Rock overpowered. If every other pokemon got Natural Cure, I'm sure status moves would fall out of favor as well. The fact that Rapid Spin isn't used as much anymore can be seen as a progression of the metagame.
The impact a ban of stealth rock on stall teams would be devestating. Most teams have stealth rock as a staple, but stall teams rely on stealth rock. Stealth rock punishes flyers and levitaters and who dodge spikes and poison types who laugh at toxic spikes. In an offense based metagame, stealth rock is one of the moves that allow well built stall teams to still be viable.
I know the impact on stall teams has already been discussed in this thread. It should be emphasized though. The absence of stealth rock would endanger an entire style of playing, not just a place on one's team. In this way, it could be putting a danger on the overcentralization of the metagame.
I know the impact on stall teams has already been discussed in this thread. It should be emphasized though. The absence of stealth rock would endanger an entire style of playing, not just a place on one's team. In this way, it could be putting a danger on the overcentralization of the metagame.
And relying on Stealth Rock to do so somehow isn't?
Sashed sweepers may be dangerous, but no one's going to run a whole team of them. Hail/Sandstorm/Spikes/Tspikes ruin the strategy, and any bulky priority user will give them a very difficult time. Ghosts block counter-sash, as do all special moves. Trick gets rid of the sash quite quickly. Sure, many teams may use one or two sashed mons, but most pokemon have better options. I think people overestimate how dangerous sashes are.
As for stall teams, they tend to rely on switching a lot. Guess what tends to hinder that? There was a good reason that a lot of teams in the more stallish RSE metagame had a spinner despite spikes being the only entry hazard.
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Aren't stall teams suppose to be able to take care of Stealth Rock? Stall Teams are really affected by it unless they're are hail team. Most Stall Teams rely on switching, so they would need to be able to switch without hindrances.
In a "MetaGame" where SR is prevalent there will be in most cases be less use of Focus Sash. Remove SR then Focus Sash will be problematic.
Though it may seem Gimmicky in a SR game.. Focus Sash Salamence, Gyarados, Heatran, and pretty damn well anything with some attack power now has less effective counters if any at all and enables bigger wholes to be opened up in the opposing team. I'll correct this in the morning..
As someone who exclusively plays stall, I will observe that that is generally not too big of a problem if only SR is on the field, as almost every Pokemon on a stall team carries a recovery move of some kind. And I can generally get rocks removed on any team that decides to be dumb and use suicide lead, so the damage from switching from just SR isn't that much of a detriment for stall. The fact that we can actually do something to heavy hitters like Gyara and Mence is much more of a benefit to a stall team than the possible downside of SR damage from switching in and out.
And there was no physical/special split and offensive Pokes just didn't hit as hard back then. There's a reason Blissey runs Sp. Def. EVs now and not in R/S.
Even if SR was banned, you would still have a very large number of Steels due to their excellent defensive typing and being the sole Dragon resist, particularly if we choose to re-instate Lati@s. And I would also point out that Bronzong and Metagross do take some damage from SR, in contrast to Flying and levitators if it was banned.
Yes, because Azelf (the prime example of that concept) is completely useless otherwise.
Added, thanks dude. I think I'll expand on that section later seeing all the discussion around it.
This iz stupid, Stealth Rock is a vital move on pokemon, it iz stupid to even run a 'ban-a'move' test soley on the move.
The reasonz why it shouldn't even ban, because i have deepest love and affekshun for the move.
You could counter SR:
-Taunt the move
-Rapid Spin
I don't see why doing this makes sense, I know it dealz plenty damage to the OU pokemon. It dealz plenty of damage to them, SR provides support and damage to the most kommon pokemon that could potentially hurt the team..
-Zapdos
-Salamence
-Yanmega
-Fire Typez
-etc.
If Sr was banned, Focus Sash iz going to be popular and these pokemon will be harder to take down. These flyerz don't stand a chance against Spikes, given that the only way to break their sashez is through 'Weather teamz'
and statuz.
Banning SR is ludakriz.
The reasonz why it shouldn't even ban, because i have deepest love and affekshun for the move.
You could counter SR:
-Taunt the move
-Rapid Spin
I don't see why doing this makes sense, I know it dealz plenty damage to the OU pokemon. It dealz plenty of damage to them, SR provides support and damage to the most kommon pokemon that could potentially hurt the team..
-Zapdos
-Salamence
-Yanmega
-Fire Typez
-etc.
If Sr was banned, Focus Sash iz going to be popular and these pokemon will be harder to take down. These flyerz don't stand a chance against Spikes, given that the only way to break their sashez is through 'Weather teamz'
and statuz.
Banning SR is ludakriz.
If we remove Stealth Rock from the metagame, I believe this will reduce the need for spinners. Yes, one layer of spikes can be a bitch to pokemon who resist SR but don't avoid the spikes, but the situation regarding entry hazards would be only slightly different to the situation regarding an opponent's permanent weather. You don't see pokemon using Sunny Day or Rain Dance just to cancel out Tyranitar's Sand Stream, so you probably wouldn't see as many pokemon using Rapid Spin just to get rid of an entry hazard that several pokemon are immune to.
haterguy, your argument will be taken more seriously if you actually spell correctly rather than phonetically, especially regarding ending words with 'z'. Still, if you're worried about sashes ruining the metagame, there will probably therefore be an increase in the use of priority moves. For the record, my work-in-progress OU team doesn't have and doesn't plan to have Stealth Rock on it at all.
haterguy, your argument will be taken more seriously if you actually spell correctly rather than phonetically, especially regarding ending words with 'z'. Still, if you're worried about sashes ruining the metagame, there will probably therefore be an increase in the use of priority moves. For the record, my work-in-progress OU team doesn't have and doesn't plan to have Stealth Rock on it at all.
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