-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Project Uber
- Thread starter Matthew
- Start date
- Status
Parasect is now listed as a failure in the OP, so Quagsire is actually considered to be better than Parasect.
And Quagsire at least is one Pokemon that can switch into Kyogre with little to no worry.
Rotom-W anyone?
Not sure about the specific EVs, but I was thinking of a choice scarf looking something like this:
Thunder
Hydro Pump
Shadow Ball
Trick / Hp Ice (for Rayquaza)
Suppose to abuse rain, has the same immunities as Gengar, so if gengar can swap in easily enough, why not Rotom?
Not sure about the specific EVs, but I was thinking of a choice scarf looking something like this:
Thunder
Hydro Pump
Shadow Ball
Trick / Hp Ice (for Rayquaza)
Suppose to abuse rain, has the same immunities as Gengar, so if gengar can swap in easily enough, why not Rotom?
Bold is better, for it reduces the amount of damage taken by confusion. It's a very very small benefit, but a benefit neverthless. That reminds me, Gen. change the nature for my Skarmory set to Bold.
If you want to test Umbreon, go for it. The main problem I see with this is that Ubers hits too hard. It can only set up on pokemon like Blissey, and they will be guaranteed to swap out before you can Mean Look them.
The main problem I see with it is what does it have over other Scarfers apart from immunities? Palkia and Kyogre can both abuse Thunder and STAB Surf with far superior SpA and Speed, and even better defenses thanks to Rotom's pitiful HP.
And with the topic of immunities, despite 3 immunities, it'll be hard to take advantage of them. Normal attacks are never used; the only exception is Rayquaza's Extremespeed (meaning you'll want HP Ice to make use of this). Fighting attacks can be seen on Mewtwo, Darkrai and Dialga, but you need prediction to switch in on all of them (plus Rotom-W doesn't threaten Dialga). Ground - that's Groudon or Garchomp, and maybe Rayquaza's Earthquake. Garchomp is usually Choiced, so it'll be forced to swap out. But this set has little against Groudon thanks to his Sun rendering Hydro Pump a weak attack. I'll also like to point out that Gengar is very very rare in Ubers, and I'll probably wouldn't consider Gengar a "works" pokemon.
I must agree, this works well. However, I find that I rarely ever manage to set up SR with him. Against Deoxys-S, I Earthquake and then Ice Shard, so Deoxys-S doesn't have time for SR. Against Darkrai, I swap out, because without Focus Sash, Endeavour is near useless - this set should always have a Focus Sash. Against almost everything else, I am forced to Endeavour on the first turn.
I have Avalanche in place of Stealth Rock. Avalanche + Ice Shard = 2HKO on Groudon if Avalanche gets the boost. The only time Avalanche won't get the boost is if Groudon uses SR - you still win.
I quoted this here, because this set is more related to this thread than the Uber metagame thread.
Can't Quagsire also be a good anti-set upper with Encore, and not just a Kyogre Switch-in?
Say its facing support Groudon and switches in on Thunder Wave, Stone Edge, Fire Punch, or Stealth Rock. Wont Groudon be afraid of Toxic or Yawn? Also Quagsire can really Encore anything that isn't a direct attack. Quagsire can come in on Groudon fairly easily as well on the moves listed above (baring EQ), and force a switch.
Additionally, having a Pokemon use Encore can also make it easier to switch in Wobbafett. Either they wont switch out right away and will repeat the move as you switch in Wobbafett, or they will switch out as you send in Wobbafett and trap them...
Anyways what do y'all think of:
Gallade can be useful?
With a Lum Berry, it can handle Lead Darkrai (Close Combat on the Dark Void or Trick). With a Life Orb + Swords Dance, it can deal significant damage to enemy Psychic/Ghosts like Lati@s with Night Slash or Ice Punch, or (perhaps Shadow Sneak?).
In Comparison to Lucario, Gallade can use a Jolly Nature and have only 1 less Attack point than an Adamant Lucario, and still have 5 more Speed points. Also, both pack a STAB Close Combat, and whilest Shadow Sneak is only half the power of Extreme Speed in terms of priority moves, the number of Psychics and Ghosts around allow for it to be useful, (effectively making it 80 Base Power). Additionally, since Shadow Sneak has both priority and coverage on Psychic / Ghost types, Gallade has more freedom to choose its other moves (Ice Punch, Destiny Bond, status, etc.) Lucario, on the other hand, would have to select between Crunch, Ice Punch, or Stone Edge on its final slot to cover common Ghosts or Psychics.
It's nice Special Defense also helps to make up for its low HP (to an extent).
Perhaps someone (I cannot) can test this moveset:
Gallade: Lum Berry / Life Orb
4 HP 252 Attack / 252 Speed
Jolly
~ Swords Dance
~ Close Combat
~ Shadow Sneak / Night Slash
~ Ice Punch / Destiny Bond
Use Gallade as a Lead if you are using Lum Berry in order to counter opposing Lead Darkrais, or use Life Orb with some Wobbaffet support to become an all around sweeper with Swords Dance, (similar to Lucario). Another advantage over Lucario is not worrying about lead Darkrai's Focus Blast, as Lucario's weakness wont allow him the grace to pull off the same set as a Lum Berry lead.
Also more bulky sets could be made with SpD investment and perhaps W-o-w or Thunder Wave, or even Focus Sash Destiny Bond sets. I just thought I would mention Gallade since he offers some strong Attack power with STAB Close Combat, a useful priority move, and stellar coverage that could be an alternative to Lucario due to its wider movepool.
Say its facing support Groudon and switches in on Thunder Wave, Stone Edge, Fire Punch, or Stealth Rock. Wont Groudon be afraid of Toxic or Yawn? Also Quagsire can really Encore anything that isn't a direct attack. Quagsire can come in on Groudon fairly easily as well on the moves listed above (baring EQ), and force a switch.
Additionally, having a Pokemon use Encore can also make it easier to switch in Wobbafett. Either they wont switch out right away and will repeat the move as you switch in Wobbafett, or they will switch out as you send in Wobbafett and trap them...
Anyways what do y'all think of:
Gallade can be useful?
With a Lum Berry, it can handle Lead Darkrai (Close Combat on the Dark Void or Trick). With a Life Orb + Swords Dance, it can deal significant damage to enemy Psychic/Ghosts like Lati@s with Night Slash or Ice Punch, or (perhaps Shadow Sneak?).
In Comparison to Lucario, Gallade can use a Jolly Nature and have only 1 less Attack point than an Adamant Lucario, and still have 5 more Speed points. Also, both pack a STAB Close Combat, and whilest Shadow Sneak is only half the power of Extreme Speed in terms of priority moves, the number of Psychics and Ghosts around allow for it to be useful, (effectively making it 80 Base Power). Additionally, since Shadow Sneak has both priority and coverage on Psychic / Ghost types, Gallade has more freedom to choose its other moves (Ice Punch, Destiny Bond, status, etc.) Lucario, on the other hand, would have to select between Crunch, Ice Punch, or Stone Edge on its final slot to cover common Ghosts or Psychics.
It's nice Special Defense also helps to make up for its low HP (to an extent).
Perhaps someone (I cannot) can test this moveset:
Gallade: Lum Berry / Life Orb
4 HP 252 Attack / 252 Speed
Jolly
~ Swords Dance
~ Close Combat
~ Shadow Sneak / Night Slash
~ Ice Punch / Destiny Bond
Use Gallade as a Lead if you are using Lum Berry in order to counter opposing Lead Darkrais, or use Life Orb with some Wobbaffet support to become an all around sweeper with Swords Dance, (similar to Lucario). Another advantage over Lucario is not worrying about lead Darkrai's Focus Blast, as Lucario's weakness wont allow him the grace to pull off the same set as a Lum Berry lead.
Also more bulky sets could be made with SpD investment and perhaps W-o-w or Thunder Wave, or even Focus Sash Destiny Bond sets. I just thought I would mention Gallade since he offers some strong Attack power with STAB Close Combat, a useful priority move, and stellar coverage that could be an alternative to Lucario due to its wider movepool.
Weavile @ Choice band
Nature: Jolly nature
Evs: 252 Att, 252 Spd.
Ability: pressure
- Night Slash
- Ice Shard
- Pursuit
- Brick Break
Uber utility Weavile.
Nature: Jolly nature
Evs: 252 Att, 252 Spd.
Ability: pressure
- Night Slash
- Ice Shard
- Pursuit
- Brick Break
Uber utility Weavile.
who the fuck will quagsire encore? its so slow, and anyone can juist switch out. just use wobb
Weavile@Choice Band
Jolly nature
252 Att, 252 Spd
- Night Slash
- Ice Shard
- Pursuit
- Brick Break
Jolly nature
252 Att, 252 Spd
- Night Slash
- Ice Shard
- Pursuit
- Brick Break
all of the pokemon that think they can sit there and boost up(CM latios anyone?).
This just seems like an inferior wobbuffet. Sure Quag has immunity to Thunder Wave, but by encoring a pokemon, they can just switch out, so there isn't much time to set up. Furthermore, what its passing the set up too may not be immune to TWave (luke/gallade/Latios) and it will severely hamper their sweep. I would much rather take the thunderwave with Wobbuffet (who doesn't really mind the speed drop) and throw up a safeguard, so, not am i only getting an absolutely free switch in, but I also get a free turn of Stat-up from the remnants of shadow tag.
Gallade seems like an OK sweeper, but it would need a LO, so it could do as much damage as possible in order to OHKO as opposed to 2HKO certain threats. Its still overshadowed by Lucario, mainly because of its typing. Luke only takes 3% from SR, whereas Gallade takes 6%. However, much more importantly, Lucario has important resistances to Dark (4x), Dragon (2x), and Ice (2x), which are all rampant in ubers, allowing him to come in one, and take more hits while setting up.
I don't think it can really switch in with its mediocre SpDef, can it?
Run some calcs and see how it takes hits from the common ubers. The only problem with this set is that after Sleep Clause is put into effect, your just trapping, not encoring (unlike Wobb), which allows them to switch moves and possibly counter what you Baton Pass to. For example, switching in Lucario to an Encored Dragon Claw, Extremespeed, or even -2 Draco Meteor from Rayquaza is simple, but if it can switch moves, it can just slam Lucario with EQ/Fire Move (which most carry) when it tries to set up.
Honchkrow would need Insomnia. The added chance of critting is far inferior to the ability to switch into Darkrai's Dark Voids. Again, run some calcs, but it seems like the Choice Scarf set would be completely walled by Groudon (and why is Sucker Punch on a Choice Set? If your opponent knows your locked into it, your set up bait...)
With 88 HP it takes 30-35% from Dark Pulse and it survives unboosted Focus Blast. 88 HP is standard as the rest of EVS in speed are enough to outrun MewTwo. Primeape also takes maximum 60% from Life Orb Rayquaza Extremespeed (without boost to attack of course). It can also takes NP Boosted Dark Pulse. It's frail, but not that frail.
With Max HP/Max SpD it handles two Specs Draco Meteors from Dialga/Palkia and he can recover it with Wish+Protect combination. 95/130 is good stats even for ubers. For supporting Umbreon isn't bad. I used it in the past. You need only to watch for heavy super-effective hits and Taunt.
Wobb can't handle Kyogre like Quagsire and Encore gives you a weapon on Quaggy to beat CM Kyogre 1on1. Also if you can predict right, it's funny to see for example DDQuaza or SDQuaza locked in stat-up move. And you may always run Substitute to make using Encore easier.
Being walled by only Groudon doesn't mean that set is horrible if it deals with another pokemon. I would rather say that SR weakness is a problem here and Honchkrow isn't the bulkiest guy around to easily switch in.
Since Jibaku didn't really explain...
I didn't test a "sweeper" Jolteon. I tested Substitute Baton Passing. Sweeper Jolteon would obviously suck, as it'd be easily walled by Groudon.
Coming in on an Electric-type move is good, but Jolteon doesn't need Wobbufett support to work. Switch in on something that can't hurt you, like an Electric-type move or whatever, and Substitute Baton Pass to Swords Dance Rayquaza, and you'll often win.
I would also like to address that it isn't outclassed by Mew. Mew does pass bulkier Substitutes and can pass stat boosts, but Jolteon's higher base 130 Speed is incredibly helpful, as it outspeeds most of the common Ubers. It also has a STAB Thunder that can hit pseudo-hazers like Lugia hard.
Sorry for constantly bringing this up, but I just don't understand why it was so easily dismissed.
I didn't test a "sweeper" Jolteon. I tested Substitute Baton Passing. Sweeper Jolteon would obviously suck, as it'd be easily walled by Groudon.
Coming in on an Electric-type move is good, but Jolteon doesn't need Wobbufett support to work. Switch in on something that can't hurt you, like an Electric-type move or whatever, and Substitute Baton Pass to Swords Dance Rayquaza, and you'll often win.
I would also like to address that it isn't outclassed by Mew. Mew does pass bulkier Substitutes and can pass stat boosts, but Jolteon's higher base 130 Speed is incredibly helpful, as it outspeeds most of the common Ubers. It also has a STAB Thunder that can hit pseudo-hazers like Lugia hard.
Sorry for constantly bringing this up, but I just don't understand why it was so easily dismissed.
My mistake then. Sorry
Gallade is something I'm unsure on. It has a base 115 SDef, which is nice for surviving Palkia's Surfs or something (though you'll need to not have CCed otherwise the defense drop gets you)...however, Shadow Sneak as its priority move hurts it somewhat, as you won't be doing enough to Kyogre and Rayquaza. With things sitting faster than Gallade, IMO Shadow Sneak is a necessity.
Gallade is also neutral to Groudon's Earthquake, meaning he could SD twice. SD on the switch, and SD again as Groudon quakes, then OHKO with Close Combat. Don't try surviving LO Quakes though
I'd drop Destiny Bond if it KOes Groudon already. I'd probably go with SD/CC/Sneak/[Stone Edge/Ice Punch] or something. SE hopefully hurts Lugia and still KOes Rayquaza. Ice Punch hurts Giratina who walls this set otherwise. It -could- work, but I can't tell that for sure.
Gallade is something I'm unsure on. It has a base 115 SDef, which is nice for surviving Palkia's Surfs or something (though you'll need to not have CCed otherwise the defense drop gets you)...however, Shadow Sneak as its priority move hurts it somewhat, as you won't be doing enough to Kyogre and Rayquaza. With things sitting faster than Gallade, IMO Shadow Sneak is a necessity.
Gallade is also neutral to Groudon's Earthquake, meaning he could SD twice. SD on the switch, and SD again as Groudon quakes, then OHKO with Close Combat. Don't try surviving LO Quakes though
I'd drop Destiny Bond if it KOes Groudon already. I'd probably go with SD/CC/Sneak/[Stone Edge/Ice Punch] or something. SE hopefully hurts Lugia and still KOes Rayquaza. Ice Punch hurts Giratina who walls this set otherwise. It -could- work, but I can't tell that for sure.
Hmmm, well then let me go give it a few tests alright.
Gen, I tested a weavile set against you.
IT IS UBER STRONG.
IT IS UBER STRONG.
As I was playing the uber ladder again, I noticed that Infernape could be pretty useful when it comes to the uber metagame, since he does benefit from Groudon's sun (Groudon seems to be quite common nowdays, so yea)
Infernape@Life Orb
EVs: 52 HP / 252 Att / 204 Spe
Jolly Nature
-Close Combat
-Flare Blitz
-Swords Dance/Mach punch
-Stone Edge
This Infernape is designed to be used in tandem with Groudon, bringing out the Sun and increasing the power of Flare Blitz in the process. The Speed EVs let you outspeed Jolly Garchomp, and the maxed EVs in Attack lets you deal the maximum damage in the process. Close Combat OHKO's Dialga, and 2HKOs most things that are not resistant to it, while Stone Edge hits Flyers like Rayquaza.
It should be noted that while Infernape doesn't have extremespeed like Lucario does, his higher Speed and access to Flare Blitz (also powered up in the sun) more than make up for this downside.
Mach punch can be random, but it's useful for taking down Darkrai along with a few other weakened pokemon.
(Just wondering, but may I test if Infernape works in ubers or not?)
A 2+ Flare Blitz in the sun against a Max HP/Max Def Lugia
614 Atk vs 394 Def & 416 HP (120 Base Power): 391 - 462 (93.99% - 111.06%)
Close Combat against Max Hp / Min Def Kyogre
614 Atk vs 394 Def & 416 HP (120 Base Power): 262 - 309 (62.98% - 74.28%)
Kyogre requires Choice Scarf if it wants to force it out.
A 2+ Flare Blitz against Max Hp / Min Def Groudon (in the Sun)
614 Atk vs 316 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 486 - 573 (120.30% - 141.83%)
edit: Also stating that most of the walls that are in the Uber metagame are basically composed of Steels, which makes this set even more effective. Really though, since Infernape has a hard time switching into anything, this is basically used as a revenge killer.
Infernape@Life Orb
EVs: 52 HP / 252 Att / 204 Spe
Jolly Nature
-Close Combat
-Flare Blitz
-Swords Dance/Mach punch
-Stone Edge
This Infernape is designed to be used in tandem with Groudon, bringing out the Sun and increasing the power of Flare Blitz in the process. The Speed EVs let you outspeed Jolly Garchomp, and the maxed EVs in Attack lets you deal the maximum damage in the process. Close Combat OHKO's Dialga, and 2HKOs most things that are not resistant to it, while Stone Edge hits Flyers like Rayquaza.
It should be noted that while Infernape doesn't have extremespeed like Lucario does, his higher Speed and access to Flare Blitz (also powered up in the sun) more than make up for this downside.
Mach punch can be random, but it's useful for taking down Darkrai along with a few other weakened pokemon.
(Just wondering, but may I test if Infernape works in ubers or not?)
A 2+ Flare Blitz in the sun against a Max HP/Max Def Lugia
614 Atk vs 394 Def & 416 HP (120 Base Power): 391 - 462 (93.99% - 111.06%)
Close Combat against Max Hp / Min Def Kyogre
614 Atk vs 394 Def & 416 HP (120 Base Power): 262 - 309 (62.98% - 74.28%)
Kyogre requires Choice Scarf if it wants to force it out.
A 2+ Flare Blitz against Max Hp / Min Def Groudon (in the Sun)
614 Atk vs 316 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 486 - 573 (120.30% - 141.83%)
edit: Also stating that most of the walls that are in the Uber metagame are basically composed of Steels, which makes this set even more effective. Really though, since Infernape has a hard time switching into anything, this is basically used as a revenge killer.
See, the problem with most non-uber Pokemon is that they aren't threatening in their own right. Unless the circumstances are extreme (like Jumpluff in the sun), nothing is going to switch out generally. So relying on stat-upping isn't very easy because you're not as terrifying as Ubers.
I can't even find time to set Kingdra up.
I can't even find time to set Kingdra up.
That isn't true for all non-uber pokemon. For example, Lucario can easily set up on Choice Draco Meteors after they kill something, and sweep an entire team!
- Status