• Smogon Premier League is here and the team collection is now available. Support your team!

The "tier" of "NU" Items, and a discussion on how can they be used competitively.

skorpion123

Now we all know and used Leftorvers , the Choice items , life orb , focus sash ,expert belt , petaya/salac/liechi specific type move increasing items but their are other items , less popular and less used than those which are overused or even underused.

It would be interesting to think about them and if there any way to use them competitively.
You can disagree of course with my selection , if you wish and choose to include some other items in the list that i forgot about. I have selected items which i believe are not completely useless competitively. Well as much useful a never used item can be. Some of them may be considered "useless" , anyway , even if there is slight hope that they might find some use. That slight hope , maybe the reason they are included here. Also note that some are completly never used while others are rarely used , and i choose to even include some of those as well.

brightpowder http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/brightpowder
Custap Berry http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/custap_berry
Enigma Berry http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/enigma_berry
Focus Band http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/focus_band
Full Incense http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/full_incense
Grip Claw http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/grip_claw
Jaboca Berry http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/jaboca_berry
King's Rock http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/kings_rock
Lansat Berry http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/lansat_berry
Light Clay http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/light_clay
Micle Berry http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/micle_berry
Macho brace http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/macho_brace
metronome http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/metronome
Quick Claw http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/quick_claw
Razor Fang http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/razor_fang
Rowap Berry http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/rowap_berry
shell_bell http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/shell_bell
Scope Lens http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/scope_lens
Sticky Barb http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/sticky_barb
Wide Lens http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/wide_lens
White Herb http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/white_herb
Zoom_lens http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/zoom_lens


Anyway , some of my thoughts on how some of those could be used.

Sticky Barb is a useful item on a trick user , especially if you also have a knock off Pokemon in your team.

Another item that can be used in a trick team is Full Incense , an alternative choice , to tricking Macho Brace. Lopunny might have a use for them.


I imagine Absol or other pokemon that are using high critical chance attacks or have a trait that boosts critical strike rate , or critical damage, can use Lansat berry instead of scope lens , in a set where the objective is to use a stat increasing move first and then sweep. Drapion can use agility for example and absol can use sword dance instead.

Lansat berry in that case will also have to compete with liechi or salac berries as well for a spot, but it can be tried on either sniper or super luck pokemon.


Anyway , i am more interested in what others have to say.
 
Light Clay isn't neverused. Light Clay is used all the time on Duel Screeners like Azelf, Uxie, Bronzong, Cresselia, and the Rotom forms.
 
Light Clay is standard on Dual Screeners. Using it on something with only one screen will bring less benefits, but may still be worth it.

Brightpowder, Focus Band, King's Rock, Quick Claw, Razor Fang, and to an extent Scope Lens and Lansat Berry all fall into the category of 'hax items'. While not banned, they're generally discouraged.

Wide Lens would be good if missing bugs you. The problem is, you're probably better off carrying the more accurate equivalent move and a power boosting item. Then again, Wide Lens + high power low accuracy moves brings you close in power and accuracy to Life Orb + the more accurate moves, and without the recoil. I can't off the top of my head think of a good user.

Shell Bell might be a nice alternative to Leftovers on Pokemon with low HP that hit hard. It's particularly good for taking the edge off recoil moves.

Enigma berry probably has the problem that damage comes first, any many things get OHKOed if struck by a super effective hit.

Grip Claw's worth it if you're using the relevant moves a lot.

White Herb gives you a 'free' Draco Meteor, Overheat, Superpower, etc. The problem is it's a one-shot thing.

Metronome would be good on things that tend to spam the same move. It springs to mind as a great choice on Jirachi. Repeated flinching is bad enough, add to that ever-increasing power and it's an even bigger threat.

You haven't mentioned the type boosting items. They're rarely used, but if a Pokemon uses one type of move a lot, they give a way to boost power, without LO recoil or Choice locking. Iron Plate Scizor is not uncommon I believe. Dragon Fang/Draco Plate Salamence, perhaps?

Another ersatz option is Mail. Apparently, Mail cannot be tricked. Thus, if you have a Pokemon that really hates being tricked choice items, and frequently seems to suffer it happening, giving it Mail stops that.
 
I thought that the main use of white herb was that you could baton pass curses to something without lowering your speed. There was, previously, an Aerodactyl set in the analysis using it as well (with curse.)

Brightpowder does see use on snow cloak/sand veil abusers (such as Frosslass on a Hail team)

Power Herb deserves a mention. Its not great but better than enigma berry. Good for firing off a quick Sky Attack or Skull Bash which I should add still gives a defense boost

Zoom lens > wide lens on slower pokemon (Including Aggron if its not the Rock Polish variety)

I remember being surprised by a draco plate Salamence, but its not worth it (it may get one surprise KO, but the opponent will realise quickly) particularly as ddMence is more common than choice Mence. Works better on scizor, because choice band is the standard.

I think that Iron Plate > Metronome on Jirachi. In general type boosting or physical/special boosting items are better on everything. Consider, over 5 turns (unlikely to be more than this,) adding up the additional damage for metronome gives 0+10+20+30+40=100 extra damage if the original move did 100 damage. 20*5 gives the same for a type boosting plate, except that over any shorter period this does less, and, of course, you can switch attacks without losing the boost.
 
The problem with Grip Claw is that most of the Pokemon who would like to use it have a hard time doing so. I remember using a Tentacruel with Grip Claw that Wrapped the opponent, then proceeded to set up Toxic Spikes while they were trapped. It was a neat idea; the problem was that Tentacruel began to die really fast, and Wish support was almost a necessity.

I've found Aggron to be a relatively good user of Wide Lens. The extra accuracy comes in handy when spamming Head Smash. xD
 
Some times I like to use Muscle Band on Scizor. While it does miss out on many KOs, one advantage I love is the bluff. If I would successfully KO a Gengar with Pursuit, and then they come in with Lucario, to try to set up on me, I proceed to Superpower, so Scizor kills two Pokemon in one sitting.
 
jc104 said:
I thought that the main use of white herb was that you could baton pass curses to something without lowering your speed. There was, previously, an Aerodactyl set in the analysis using it as well (with curse.)
Click to expand...
It may well be.

I remember being surprised by a draco plate Salamence, but its not worth it (it may get one surprise KO, but the opponent will realise quickly) particularly as ddMence is more common than choice Mence. Works better on scizor, because choice band is the standard.
Click to expand...
On Salamence, I'd use it on the DD version. My experience has been Life Orb cuts my sweep too quickly, and means if I'm forced out I'm in a bad position to come back what with Mence taking 25% from SR. I've tried Lum Berry, which is nice for dancing on a status move, or getting a second outrage run. But Draco Plate offers a good in-between option I think. Power not much less than Life Orb on Outrage, and the lack of recoil means Salamence has a better chance of two shots at sweeping. Plus it might deter status if your opponent thinks you have Lum Berry. (The damage difference for Outrage may give it away to an expert player though.)

I think that Iron Plate > Metronome on Jirachi. In general type boosting or physical/special boosting items are better on everything. Consider, over 5 turns (unlikely to be more than this,) adding up the additional damage for metronome gives 0+10+20+30+40=100 extra damage if the original move did 100 damage. 20*5 gives the same for a type boosting plate, except that over any shorter period this does less, and, of course, you can switch attacks without losing the boost.
Click to expand...
Point.

verycoolguy said:
Some times I like to use Muscle Band on Scizor. While it does miss out on many KOs, one advantage I love is the bluff. If I would successfully KO a Gengar with Pursuit, and then they come in with Lucario, to try to set up on me, I proceed to Superpower, so Scizor kills two Pokemon in one sitting.
Click to expand...
I don't think Muscle Band is worth it. The boost is only 10%, that's less than the random part of the damage formula. CBless Scizor aren't uncommon; anyone switching Luke in assuming Scizor's choice locked deserves what happens to them. Iron Plate or Expert Belt are probably the better options.
 
Expert Belt are probably the better options.
Click to expand...
Is it really ? On what pokemon it makes 2KOS , 1HKO ? (or it allows them to be 2HKO instead of 1HKO) (I am talking about Scizor and it's common adversaries)

Though i would sooner use Iron Plate or Life orb than Muscle band.
 
Alright, I admit to not checking Expert Belt on Scizor. It was just a gut feeling. It's obviously only going to influence things Scizor hits super-effective - steel types mainly.
 
cantab said:
Alright, I admit to not checking Expert Belt on Scizor. It was just a gut feeling. It's obviously only going to influence things Scizor hits super-effective - steel types mainly.
Click to expand...

Scizor is not going to hit many steels with super effective moves. I am thinking currently of only two it can hit. Heatran and Lucario (oh and Magnezone which is quite uncommon) with superpower and , i believe superpower can OHKO both with or without an expert belt (or any item for that matter. But i don't know maybe some Heatran can survive , who knows . I doubt 252 Hp 252 defence + defence nature Heatrans are very common though. And even that one i am not sure that it would survive. Need to calculate to see. )

Bullet punch against rocks may be where expert belt can help but again , Iron plate.

Am i missing anything ? (Genuine question , i am not sure if there are no circumstances that it would help. Maybe Against Latias. )

Well it can help against Dark pokemon as well. Still need to calculate if there are many circumstances where it's better than simply boosting bullet punch with iron plate. A fist impression says that it doesn't appear to.

I think it's because it's bug and fighting moves hit most OU adversaries that are weak to them , enough without it. I could be mistaken but that it's my first impression.
 
I actually like the idea behind Wide Lens, as I think accuracy increasing options would give even more dimension to the game. Imagine if Compound Eyes was a more widely distributed ability.

Unfortunately, to me the big flaw behind Wide Lens is its dependancy on percentages. Wide Lens is supposed to reward the use of inaccurate moves, but in practice the less accurate the move, the less of an accuracy boost you get.

Essentially, Wide Lens would make Draco Meteor 99% accurate, but no one's going to devote an item to that when the move already has 90% accuracy. Inversely, it would make Zap Cannon 55% accurate, but again no one will use up their item for a mere 5% boost.

Compared to that, LO rewards more powerful moves by giving you a bigger boost the more powerful your move is.

If GF really wanted to make an item that would reward inaccurate moves, they should have made it so that the less accurate the move, the bigger the accuracy boost you got , or at least give all moves a straight 10% boost based on addition instead of multiplication (ie. make Wide Lens Hypnosis 70% Accurate, not 66%).
 
ChouToshio said:
I actually like the idea behind Wide Lens, as I think accuracy increasing options would give even more dimension to the game. Imagine if Compound Eyes was a more widely distributed ability.

Unfortunately, to me the big flaw behind Wide Lens is its dependancy on percentages. Wide Lens is supposed to reward the use of inaccurate moves, but in practice the less accurate the move, the less of an accuracy boost you get.

Essentially, Wide Lens would make Draco Meteor 99% accurate, but no one's going to devote an item to that when the move already has 90% accuracy. Inversely, it would make Zap Cannon 55% accurate, but again no one will use up their item for a mere 5% boost.

Compared to that, LO rewards more powerful moves by giving you a bigger boost the more powerful your move is.

If GF really wanted to make an item that would reward inaccurate moves, they should have made it so that the less accurate the move, the bigger the accuracy boost you got , or at least give all moves a straight 10% boost based on addition instead of multiplication (ie. make Wide Lens Hypnosis 70% Accurate, not 66%).
Click to expand...


the argument against wide lens is that though it makes powerful moves more accurate , it still less than just using the less powerful moves with a life orb.

But i don't see anything better if you just NEED to have your Sleep powder or Hypnosis (or even better a move with higher accuracy) hit , and can't take a miss. As far as status inducing moves is the matter , then it's probably the only option. Even if it's not as much as it should.

(Well choice scarf may be better if you are not fast enough to even use the sleep move in the first place . And if you go second the chances of using the status move with success also diminish)

Oh and wide lens could be i suppose useful in pokemon with an extremely limited movepool (i.e they have to use focus blast or similar moves for coverage)


If GF really wanted to make an item that would reward inaccurate moves, they should have made it so that the less accurate the move, the bigger the accuracy boost you got , or at least give all moves a straight 10% boost based on addition instead of multiplication (ie. make Wide Lens Hypnosis 70% Accurate, not 66%)
Click to expand...
I like your idea. In fact i think we should get two items. One with a + 10 accuracy to everything and one that gives a bigger percentage increase the more inaccurate the move is. (Though OHKO moves may not get the boost.) Only useful for very inaccurate moves.
 
By the way , i am looking at Luna , and i am wondering if a wide lens set would be a viable alternative or not.

Luna
Jynx (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Forewarn
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Ice Beam
- Lovely Kiss


With Wide Lens
Jynx (F) @ Wide Lens
Ability: Forewarn
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Lovely Kiss
- Blizzard
---

Now lovely kiss has a 82/5 chance to hit (7.5 more than previously) while Blizzard has an 77% chance instead of 70

It seems that you trade a 7.5 higher chance to hit with LK with a far lower chance (23%) to hit with your main attacking move but you in compensation use a 25% more powerful move also. But i would rather use an 100% move , so you may use ice beam with wide lens as well. Life orb of course provides an 125 power move with 100% accuracy. So again , it's superior if pure attacking is the concern and you don't expect Jynx to stay for long in the field. ( and you are playing with more of an offensive mindset.)

Doesn't sound too bad though . Especially since hitting with LK is vital. I am not saying that the leftovers set is not better however . I am also seeing that wide lens may also find a use here as well.
 
ChouToshio said:
Compared to that, LO rewards more powerful moves by giving you a bigger boost the more powerful your move is.
Click to expand...
But with a 10% recoil

If GF really wanted to make an item that would reward inaccurate moves, they should have made it so that the less accurate the move, the bigger the accuracy boost you got , or at least give all moves a straight 10% boost based on addition instead of multiplication (ie. make Wide Lens Hypnosis 70% Accurate, not 66%).
Click to expand...
The thing is that inaccurate moves are often inaccurate for a REASON. No Guard Machamp DynamicPunch is a prime example of what can happen when an inaccurate move is made accurate - if it weren't blocked by ghosts, I'd say it was on the edge of being broken in OU.
A 10% additive boost would probably be best. Maybe 15% or 20% at most. Zoom Lens gives a 20% boost if you're slower, but I assume it's multiplicative.
 
cantab said:
But with a 10% recoil


The thing is that inaccurate moves are often inaccurate for a REASON. No Guard Machamp DynamicPunch is a prime example of what can happen when an inaccurate move is made accurate - if it weren't blocked by ghosts, I'd say it was on the edge of being broken in OU.
A 10% additive boost would probably be best. Maybe 15% or 20% at most. Zoom Lens gives a 20% boost if you're slower, but I assume it's multiplicative.
Click to expand...

How about my idea of an item that only boosts those inaccurate moves. (but not to 100% either , i am unsure to what it must be , maybe to 85% if it's a 50% accurate move.) I am not sure if it would be broken really considering that at most one or two moves will get the benefit , and none sounds so broken . And it's taking an item space. Even a Zap Cannon with 85% accuracy to hit does not sound to me m to be the most broken thing.

Zoom Lens gives a 20% boost if you're slower, but I assume it's multiplicative.
Click to expand...
Really ? I missed to include that item . And i forgot about it. Done. (edits OP)
 
Well I remember using an old Hypnosis Yanmega back in the D/P release days and it owned but with the accuracy drop everyone started to forget it since it didn't put anything to sleep but not me, I just used Wide Lens and voila accuracy is back of course one would say it's not viable but the most common items on a yanmega would be focus sash or choice specs or anything not called wide lens but why would I want focus sash if It would break if I switch into stealth rocks also why would I want it if I'm going to get killed at sandstorm it would be better to just boost that hypnosis so that I can put anything to sleep after 1 speed boost. Of course that's just my opinion but still I use wide lens a nu item and I feel great, also used brightpowder on a garchomp in a sandstorm and it was rarely hit.
 
Can we actually use Power Herb on Shoddy? I remember trying to make a gimmicky Gliscor set with Sky Attack (yes, Gliscor can learn Sky Attack) and seem to remember being unable to find/use Power Herb. Also, I seem to recall Quick Claw being banned.
 
Darth Kaiser said:
Well I remember using an old Hypnosis Yanmega back in the D/P release days and it owned but with the accuracy drop everyone started to forget it since it didn't put anything to sleep but not me, I just used Wide Lens and voila accuracy is back of course one would say it's not viable but the most common items on a yanmega would be focus sash or choice specs or anything not called wide lens but why would I want focus sash if It would break if I switch into stealth rocks also why would I want it if I'm going to get killed at sandstorm it would be better to just boost that hypnosis so that I can put anything to sleep after 1 speed boost. Of course that's just my opinion but still I use wide lens a nu item and I feel great, also used brightpowder on a garchomp in a sandstorm and it was rarely hit.
Click to expand...

Wide Lens Hypnosis is only 66% accurate. You lose your item for just a 6% boost. That's why I was saying Wide Lens' boost should have been a 10% "add" instead of a 1.1 multiplication increase.

cantab said:
The thing is that inaccurate moves are often inaccurate for a REASON. No Guard Machamp DynamicPunch is a prime example of what can happen when an inaccurate move is made accurate - if it weren't blocked by ghosts, I'd say it was on the edge of being broken in OU.
A 10% additive boost would probably be best. Maybe 15% or 20% at most. Zoom Lens gives a 20% boost if you're slower, but I assume it's multiplicative.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but it's all about Opportunity Cost. If you're using Wide Lens, you don't get to use LO, Choice Band, etc. Keeping in mind that even a 100% accurate Fire Blast or Hydro Pump would not be as powerful as an LO boosted Flamethrower/Surf, you have to be getting a huge accuracy boost with a really good move to make giving up your item slot worthwhile.

Even if there were an item that gave a +20 acc boost (ie. made Focus Blast 90% accurate), there would be few pokemon that would give up their item spot for it, and even so not without giving up on some major options.

Gengar is one poke that might do it, considering how much Gengar depends on Focus Blast an how much an 80% acc Hypnosis would bring to its game. But without LO Gengar can't 1hko 252 hp Tyranitar, which is a serious loss. I'm sure Milotic would be loving 80% accurate Hypnosis and 100% accurate Hydropump (and 90% Blizzard), but losing leftovers is nothing to scoff at.
 
Losing leftovers isn't a huge issue for Milotic. What is the huge issue is adding Aqua Ring to its moveset to compensate for the loss of Leftovers, then losing out on something more useful like Recover.
 
Lol Jaboca Berry looks pretty awesome. Maybe with Natural Gift and Recycle with a recover move such as Softboiled or Recover, this can be awesome :P. Just throwing in a random idea.
 
I think some of those items are banned by default unless you allow "Extended Game" clause, which also allows you to use Arceus.
 
None of those items should be banned right now actually because they have all been released in some way. The only items that would have been banned were berries, but the last berry was given with Arceus.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top