Gimmick Sets - The Bronzong Principle

Jahikoi

Jahikoi

At what point does a Gimmick Set lose its title of Gimmick and gain acknowledgement as a powerful set? The following post is what I have written regarding me running Calm Mind Heatproof Bronzong, which I initially ran as a dual screener joke set which turned into a game-winning wonder. Keep in mind this set isn't designed for sweeping early game. It is designed to come out early game, score surprise KO's, then to sweep late game.


When people say I'm stupid for running Heatproof Bronzong, I just know they are ignorant to how useful it is.


Until the opponent becomes aware to the fact that Bronzong is Heatproof, you're basically immune to ground-type moves.

The only times that an opponent finds out about Heatproof are:

1. Your opponent predicts a switch when you come in on a resisted move.
2. Your opponent sets up spikes, and you dont spin them.
3. Your opponent uses a Fire-Type move, which would otherwise kill him anyway.


But with all this, he still takes a good chunk from fire attacks. That is why I invented this set:

Bronzong w/ Leftovers
Modest Nature, 252 SpA, 252 HP
Heatproof

Calm Mind
Psychic
Hidden Power Ground
Grass Knot

After one Calm Mind, Bronzong is a beast. The most common switch ins to Heatran are probably Salamence, Heatran, Infernape etc - Things packing a powerful fire move, generally. On the other side, we have pokemon like Swampert to take advantage of it usually not being able to do anything to it. If Hippowdon swaps in to phaze, OHKO it with Grass Knot.

Almost anything all of these former threats can do to Bronzong (Apart from Ground-Type moves) will do pitiful damage. Bronzong does a large chunk (60%-ish I believe) to Salamence with Psychic, one shots Heatran with Hidden Power Ground, one shots Infernape with Psychic, One shots Swampert with Grass knot.

Now, the counters to this set -

Blissey and Skarmory - After 6 Calm Minds, Psychic will do 50-60% before the special defense drop; but if they have Blissey with Seismic Toss you will have a hard time getting it out. Skarmory simply walls this set. Psychic after one Calm Mind does about 35%. If you manage to score a good prediction and HP Ground as he Roosts, you can score a cheap ko... but this is unlikely.

Suicune - If you start even with Suicune, it will win. If both of you have +6/+6, you will do 40%-ish with Grass Knot, which they can stall with RestTalk.

Latias - It can trick you a scarf, which can lead to prediction and switching. If it tricks specs, you can go nuts with Psychic. Latias with CM and Roost is the number 1 counter to this set. If Latias doesn't have CM, this Bronzong beats him though.

Ground Moves - IF THEY KNOW YOU ARE HEATPROOF! If they don't find out, they wont even try to use Earthquake.

Scizor - After one Calm Mind, you can do about 35% to Scizor with Hidden Power Ground, but not before Scizor decides to U-Turn for approx 50% (with Choice Band). If Scizor comes in, unless you can KO it or leave it on quite low hp then switch, unless you know what is going to come in.








I could go on, but these are just a few examples. Opinions, Comments (regarding the original question of what a set needs to be a self-functioning set rather than being 'a gimmick')?
 
Here's the thing I hate about that set. Spikes are common enough where it will give away your Heatproof ability. If you don't have Spikes, you will get hit by a fire attack rather quickly, which will also reveal Heatproof. From here, it may be good enough for a KO, but you must remember that you will still lose a significant chunk of health, even though it's not "Super Effective" damage. From here, a lot of Earthquake users will just have a field day with you, and the most you've accomplished is trading a Pokemon for a Pokemon.

It doesn't help much that your Bronzong is not too difficult to wall.

EDIT: I've gotten hung up on your Bronzong and didn't answer the main question:\.

When a "gimmick" set doesn't need massive team support and can operate effectively without the need for surprise factor (as your Bronzong does, which prevents it from becoming standard), then it can become a powerful standard. I mean, let's take, I don't know, MixApe for example. Fairly often, you can guess what set it's running, but despite this, it can still operate well and put serious hurt on your team.
 
Most competent players would look on the side (if its shoddy) or notice (on wi-fi) if the message shows up and says "Bronzong makes ground moves miss with Levitate" and if that doesn't show up, its grounded w/Heatproof and EQ KOs it.
 
bearsfan092 said:
Here's the thing I hate about that set. Spikes are common enough where it will give away your Heatproof ability. If you don't have Spikes, you will get hit by a fire attack rather quickly, which will also reveal Heatproof. From here, it may be good enough for a KO, but you must remember that you will still lose a significant chunk of health, even though it's not "Super Effective" damage. From here, a lot of Earthquake users will just have a field day with you, and the most you've accomplished is trading a Pokemon for a Pokemon.

It doesn't help much that your Bronzong is not too difficult to wall.
Click to expand...

...did I wake up in an alternate timeline? Spikes is in no way common, except on Stall teams, but they hate Setup sweepers anyway and will Whirlwind (or Roar) you away.
 
@Mattman, Stall teams are fairly common, so Spikes are by association common enough. Two of the most popular Spikers, Skarmory and Forretress, are on 9.7 and 6.7 percent of teams respectively, which is enough of an occurrence, even with overlap. That Bronzong is a gimmick, but CMZong with Levitate, I'd say is not.

And my other point still stands.
 
1. Your opponent predicts a switch when you come in on a resisted move.
2. Your opponent sets up spikes, and you dont spin them.
3. Your opponent uses a Fire-Type move, which would otherwise kill him anyway.
Click to expand...

Just thought I'd add that if the opponent uses Will-o-wisp, they will find out due to reduced burn damage.
 
First off, I believe that this set is very creative and has a potential to do very well. In fact, it is something that I would like to try out myself.

Second, this Bronzong would probably do better on WiFi than on Shoddy. I play mostly WiFi and a little bit of Shoddy. On WiFi stall teams are much less common, so that helps to solve the Spikes issue. Also, on WiFi there is more of a diversity of Pokemon used. Your Bronzong is more likely not to stick out like a sore thumb if your opponent realizes your strategy.
 
I think the main drawback of Heatproof Bronzong is that you lose the ability to switch into Earthquake, the most common move. If you have several Pokemon that are already immune / resistant to Ground moves, then sure, Heatproof Bronzong might be the way to go. However, switching is probably the most important move in Pokemon, and Heatproof loses that.

I would say a gimmick set is one that can win a few battles by surprise, but if the opponent knows what it is, you're unlikely to win with it. Another possible definition is that it's something that does really well against a very small minority of teams and does horribly against the rest.

Based on the surprise definition, I think gimmick sets can be useful under one condition: you're willing to update your team often. Otherwise, you'll face many of the same battlers eventually and they'll see it coming (and if it's successful, it will be copied).
 
Jewgong said:
Most competent players would look on the side (if its shoddy) or notice (on wi-fi) if the message shows up and says "Bronzong makes ground moves miss with Levitate" and if that doesn't show up, its grounded w/Heatproof and EQ KOs it.
Click to expand...
That message only comes up if you actually attack the Bronzong with a ground move, though. Unfortunately, Heatproof Bronzong really is too easily given away (spikes, switching into a stray ground move, obvious after the first time it's attacked with a fire move), and additionally, giving it Heatproof means that you can't switch it in on ground moves, which is a serious disadvantage even if the opponent doesn't guess what you're doing.
 
someone trying to take my heatproof mindzong set

i don't care really, i used that set since the beginning of 4th gen play, it works for a little bit but it's not that great

it will basically only work on hail teams since on a hail team, one is going to have a couple more pokes weak to fire, removing zongs fire weakness benefits the team more than being immune to ground moves since most pokes that use earthquake/earth power are not going to be switching in that often due to the fear of a water/ice move (since your team is going to be carrying them a little more than usual)

and what jewsgong said also defeats the purpose of running it, they'll notice it didn't say "Bronzong makes ground moves miss with levitate" so they'll know it's heatproof and then hit you with earthquake

it'll work once on an opponent but not again
 
and what jewsgong said also defeats the purpose of running it, they'll notice it didn't say "Bronzong makes ground moves miss with levitate" so they'll know it's heatproof and then hit you with earthquake
Click to expand...

That message only comes up if you actually attack the Bronzong with a ground move,
Click to expand...
 
Whether you run Levitate or Heatproof on Bronzong should depend on what your team wants. Levitate is usually the better option, but as I've said before, don't just choose it without thinking.

Incidentally, a more 'standard' Bronzong, but with Heatproof, can come in on fire types and threaten with Earthquake or use a support move, provided the fire type doesn't have its own EQ. True it's only neutral to fire, but often has enough defenses to not be 2HKOed anyway.

In general about gimmicks: if they work, they may become popular and 'mainstream'. Though another possibility is they turn into a fad, as people adopt them, then fall away again when people realise they're actually not that good.
 
I used to use a Dugtrio, and instead of Arena Trap I had it with Sand Veil, and it worked extremely well. It only ever backfired once.

Whenever you're up against a trapping Pokemon, always attempt to switch out anyway. Because you'll just be asked to redo your selection, you literally have nothing to lose from trying.
 
I also used to use sand veil dugtrio, never backfired :)

I like gimmick sets if you're trying to have fun or don't plan on playing often. If you're trying to climb the ladder it's not usually worth it.
 
On shoddy I always try to switch out of magnezones. Just in case they forgot to change the button to/from magnet pull

on topic
Wouldn't this set be just as effective if not more so as levitate?

Calm mind helping to bolster Spd. Most fire attacks, outside the occasional flare blitz, are special anyway no?
 
The idea behind gimmicks is to win through suprise. In pokemon ignorance kills; this means that if you don't know what's coming and I take advantage of that fact then you are probably going to lose. In the past I used a ScarfSkarm as my lead. It worked very successfuly a few times at absorbing trick and laying down entry hazards. Even today the set still works every so often if I feel like using it. Basically a gimmick is a one time suprise move that works a lot like trick plays work in football. It may work some of the time but you shouldn't base every game around it.
 
if i ever used such a moveset i would use it on jirachi who could much more efficiently use the set due to a higher speed and special attk. u dont need heatproof b/c jirachi outspeeds nonscarf varients of heatran
 
I faced a Heatproof Zong once, and the easiest way to figure out if they're Heatproof or Levitate is just have Rotom Will-O-Wisp it. Luckily, Heatproof cuts even Burn damage, so you can check.
 
It's a cute set, however like other people have mentioned when your opponent if observant can tell that Bronzong doesn't have levitate.

A surprise factor? Yes. Will it remain a gimmick? I'm afraid so.
 
I was just thinking about Bronzong when I entered the thread.

A gimmicky I can see becoming standard is Block Bronzong Lead. It's only teory, but there's so many Pokemon who run away from Bronzong that Block could prove useful. You can also Block and Explode some kind of threat to your team. Also can get you time for setting up Stealth Rock, if they send out some kind of staller who can't 2HKO Bronzong.
 
Glen ^^ said:
I was just thinking about Bronzong when I entered the thread.

A gimmicky I can see becoming standard is Block Bronzong Lead. It's only teory, but there's so many Pokemon who run away from Bronzong that Block could prove useful. You can also Block and Explode some kind of threat to your team. Also can get you time for setting up Stealth Rock, if they send out some kind of staller who can't 2HKO Bronzong.
Click to expand...
... Except the fleeing Pokemon will get away before Bronzong Blocks it, meaning you instead Block something Bronzong isn't going to do very well against.
 
Thanks for the discussion guys. For the set itself, I knew about the burn doing 6% thing - if a Rotom uses Will-o-wisp, it's likely you will be able to fire off a Psychic on the same turn and do a large amount of damage to it.

The main problem, as people have said, is not being able to swap into Earthquake. I manage to avoid this by using another set which I use as a gimmick but find ridiculous success with - Flame Orb Trick/Psycho Shit/Roost/Dragon Pulse Latias.

Keep in mind, that when they find out that Bronzong is heatproof, they will come in and try to earthquake it. As soon as they are going to use EQ, just swap to something that is immune, as you would if Bronzong were Metagross, Heatran etc. Rememember you're using this Bronzong as part of a team, not just itself.


if i ever used such a moveset i would use it on jirachi who could much more efficiently use the set due to a higher speed and special attk. u dont need heatproof b/c jirachi outspeeds nonscarf varients of heatran
Click to expand...
Except Jirachi is weak to both fire AND ground moves... Jirachi is definately doing something different to this Bronzong (Although I do agree that Calm Mind Jirachi is a very powerful threat also)


@Mattman, Stall teams are fairly common, so Spikes are by association common enough. Two of the most popular Spikers, Skarmory and Forretress, are on 9.7 and 6.7 percent of teams respectively, which is enough of an occurrence, even with overlap. That Bronzong is a gimmick, but CMZong with Levitate, I'd say is not.
Click to expand...

A large amount of Skarmory run Stealth Rock/Roost/Roar/Brave Bird. Whatever happens, Forretress, in my experience, will almost always spend two turns setting up Toxic Spikes before ever even trying to set up regular spikes - people nowadays enjoy them more for some reason.

Spikes are fairly rare otherwise - All good teams nowadays bar few run Stealth Rock - most offensive teams do not usually run two support pokemon and do not run Spikes, or Rapid Spin. Most medium paced teams usually run SR and Spikes, SR and spin block, SR and rapid spin; very rarely more than two - if you run three or four of them, you are basically automatically labelled as a stall team. Just for the record, Bronzong does enjoy the sand - using Grass Knot you can OHKO Hippowdon (Who will never see it coming, nor try to EQ) or Tyranitar (CBTar has too much special bulk to be beaten 1v1 without, i think, 3 calm minds? Even without, Grass Knot is a good 120 base grass move and you can take down Ttar most of the way.)

Someone trying to take my heatproof mindzong set

i don't care really, i used that set since the beginning of 4th gen play, it works for a little bit but it's not that great
Click to expand...
Super cool story bro.

I was just thinking about Bronzong when I entered the thread.

A gimmicky I can see becoming standard is Block Bronzong Lead. It's only theory, ...
Click to expand...
I would argue that most leads nowadays have Trick, Taunt or Explosion (in conjunction with Stealth Rock)... I don't think it would be very good but I do agree that it could catch some teams entirely off guard. If the aim is, as said, to catch the enemy off guard, a Meanlook/Curse/Baton Pass/Wish Umbreon is a beast to pass to a regular bronzong, to sweep with a max-power Gyro Ball.


If I forgot any main points, feel free to tell me.
 
Also, just a quick addition - If you say 'oh if they just use a fire move they will know'; think about it this way; if the bronzong had Levitate and they used a fire move, it would be dead.
 
And a quick addition number 2.
If they ever happened to use a ground move with something that usually carries a ground move (say, Gliscor? Swampert?) wouldn´t they easily think how easy switchin you would´ve got by switching Bronzong into something like that thet possibly is never very big threat to Bronzong?
If you had levitate, it would´ve been a free switchin (exept for stuff like Roar or Ice beam freeze) and some standard Bronzong sets would have got a easy time to set up Stealth rock, weather, etc. or throw a Hypnosis just for the sake of it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top