bluffing aspect? That's seriously stupid . . . trying to use info directly from your opponent's mouth (fingers?) one way or another is just dumb . . . I seriously don't think that should be taken into account.
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Differences in Competitive Play between WiFi and Shoddy
- Thread starter kokoloko
- Start date
Lol, I wasn't the one to bring it up. I am actually arguing against it.
Another point I'd make about Wifi is that less legends will be seen, not only because of lack of access, but because finding good Iv's and Natures can be frustrating since they can't breed. Often when they choose to use Legends they might get a silly nature that would reduce their potential. I am sure if there were usage statistics for Wifi then guys like Heatran and Zapdos would be lower than on Shoddy.
Basically it's because on Shoddy if you don't get up rocks in one match, you want to get them up the next match even if it makes you do a bad move. On wifi you have more time between matches and you won't mess up like that and possibly lose more.
quoted from someone but don't know who
quoted from someone but don't know who
I heard some people on wifi ban Pursuit because of the weather glitch. That's obviously a major difference considering who the top two Pokemon on our Shoddy server are.
It's kinda funny that this environment we play in, with Tyranitar pursuiting Rotom-A's without a problem, doesn't really exist... and competitive Pokemon centers around it anyway. I guess Shoddy 2 is going to change that.
It's kinda funny that this environment we play in, with Tyranitar pursuiting Rotom-A's without a problem, doesn't really exist... and competitive Pokemon centers around it anyway. I guess Shoddy 2 is going to change that.
The only experience I have with battling other players is going against my friends and on the Shoddy simulator. To me, I'll always love the real thing more than Shoddy, but I really appreciate the speed and accessibility that it provides. Unfortunately for me, my internet doesn't support Wi-fi on my DS, so I am unable to obtain the online experience for it.
I would have to say the one downfall with cartridge games is that if you're not using an action replay, then you need to put a lot of time and dedication into it. Considering my generally low amount of free time when I was training my team, it took me around two months to get it completed. One good thing about that is the sense of pride you get with that team, knowing you spent so much sweat and blood to make it.
I would have to say the one downfall with cartridge games is that if you're not using an action replay, then you need to put a lot of time and dedication into it. Considering my generally low amount of free time when I was training my team, it took me around two months to get it completed. One good thing about that is the sense of pride you get with that team, knowing you spent so much sweat and blood to make it.
Hello, all. I'm a first-time poster, and a very light user of both Shoddy and Wi-Fi (since I'm still trying to overcome the terrible luck I have at the Battle Frontier). My attitude has been one of "try the Pokemon on Shoddy, then attempt to recreate it for Wi-Fi if it works".
However, due to the factors mentioned above, it's almost like Shoddy just creates another layer of theorymon. (Also, I can't use Rotom-W in my rain team on Wi-Fi, which is totally uncool.) To phrase it another way, I could create a team on Shoddy, have it win more than it loses, then watch helplessly as some of Wi-Fi's infamously unorthodox tactics exploit openings in my team that I never knew existed (alas, if only someone had used Toxicroak against me on Shoddy). They're two totally different metagames, and my success in one usually leads to overconfidence in the other. I'm working on that. >_>
However, due to the factors mentioned above, it's almost like Shoddy just creates another layer of theorymon. (Also, I can't use Rotom-W in my rain team on Wi-Fi, which is totally uncool.) To phrase it another way, I could create a team on Shoddy, have it win more than it loses, then watch helplessly as some of Wi-Fi's infamously unorthodox tactics exploit openings in my team that I never knew existed (alas, if only someone had used Toxicroak against me on Shoddy). They're two totally different metagames, and my success in one usually leads to overconfidence in the other. I'm working on that. >_>
I tend to become more emotionally invested into individual battles when i play on wifi or with friends, and i often feel cheated if i lose to gimmick teams. In shoddy if i lose to a gimmick set or just lose in general i dont really care. I guess this is because i am playing more against the ladder metagame then against that individual player, but in wifi I am playing for victory in that individual battle and for nothing more.
Most Youtube videos are doubles and Furret winning OU isn't very surprising because Furret is pretty much an OU Pokemon in doubles. Yea. WiFi has way less anal, competitive people. On Shoddy, everyone has Pokemon with perfect IVs (or almost perfect if you go for a Hidden Power) and on WiFi, the only people with that advantage are those who work hard raising their Pokemon. Also, there are less legendaries around so you don't have to face that many annoying, perfect IV Azelfs. Hidden Power is also rarely used because getting the right Hidden Power on your Pokemon is very tough.
Furret sucks in doubles, all it has is follow me which is always done better by other pokemon.
This could be read as 'on shoddy everyone is on even footing so battles are fair tests of skill (with a little bit of luck of course) unlike in wifi where some people have an advantage because they waste hours of their time resetting the game over and over to hope they get lucky/hit a specific 60th of a second'
Well here is something
on Wifi I would have a skarmory with sturdy, because I would also use it in game at battle frontier where 1hit ko moves are used.
Here is something else, on wifi there is a shiny obsession. So many Pokemon do not have ideal hidden powers or IVs.
Some people may not use tms to much (the ones that don't clone or get them cloned, for example before HGSS many people could only get one stealth rock tm)
people will also be hestitant to remove special moves or egg moves (draco meter jirachi, haze on gengar) that can not be replaced.
natures, especially on legendaries can't be switched on the fly.
Celebi, deoxys, mew, darkrai, shaymin, arceus, manaphy, jirachi are much harder for anyone to get (freakin celebi!) and of course no sky form, origin form, or rotoms forms
In all there are probably alot of minor changes overall due to player preference
on Wifi I would have a skarmory with sturdy, because I would also use it in game at battle frontier where 1hit ko moves are used.
Here is something else, on wifi there is a shiny obsession. So many Pokemon do not have ideal hidden powers or IVs.
Some people may not use tms to much (the ones that don't clone or get them cloned, for example before HGSS many people could only get one stealth rock tm)
people will also be hestitant to remove special moves or egg moves (draco meter jirachi, haze on gengar) that can not be replaced.
natures, especially on legendaries can't be switched on the fly.
Celebi, deoxys, mew, darkrai, shaymin, arceus, manaphy, jirachi are much harder for anyone to get (freakin celebi!) and of course no sky form, origin form, or rotoms forms
In all there are probably alot of minor changes overall due to player preference
This is not necessarily true. As some people have already pointed out, the smaller number of battles and lower likelihood of replaying the same person on Wifi make innovations much more effective. I saw a video the other day where a Lucario used Me First to steal a Heatran's Earth Power and KO. On the OU Ladder, this would not be nearly consistent enough.
I am reminded of the frequent discussions about tournament vs. ladder teambuilding. Top players often comment how, even on Shoddy, a tournament team is much more likely to risk a gimmick like Me First Lucario because it only has to work one time against a given opponent. On the ladder, people tend to fall back on movesets with consistent performance and which minimize the impact of good prediction from opponents.
I don't think this is really "more" or "less" competitive just because the Shoddy ladder makes it harder to be unpredictable.
Shoddy is for the most part used by Smogon members and thus hav epeople more likely to use standard Smogon sets. To people that have never met Smogon the game is very different. I get hounded by some of my friends for using standard sets and taking the game to seriously as a result. The way I see it Wi-fi and shoddy are completely different. The biggest diffeence i see is the fact that there is a ladder on shoddy. It entices peole to make competetitive teams and lose the fun. (I personally would argure the competitive nature is a fun part of the game but not really relevent here)
The fact that people don't have the pressure to appear brilliant makes Wifi less serious and people are more likely to use gimmicky sets. The other thing is that Shoddy has threats already laid out for the people that play and people make their teams to cater for them. Moves like Me First are WiFiers way of catering to the Wifi metagame, one where there is no set list of threats and therefore no real way to come out on top all of the time.
The fact that people don't have the pressure to appear brilliant makes Wifi less serious and people are more likely to use gimmicky sets. The other thing is that Shoddy has threats already laid out for the people that play and people make their teams to cater for them. Moves like Me First are WiFiers way of catering to the Wifi metagame, one where there is no set list of threats and therefore no real way to come out on top all of the time.
Not entirely true. I have zero qualms about using a stall team on Wifi and I have met a few others doing the same. In general, it's accurate though because even I can't stand playing stall in every Wifi match.
The less predictable environment tends to make stall less effective though. There's bound to be a gimmick set that will give even the best stall teams trouble. Not having Rotom-A makes building stall a lot more rigid too.
For me, the most enjoyable part of the game is theorymoning new teams and movesets. This is really only feasible through Shoddy, since most of us don't have the time to actually breed, train, and test every new set that comes to mind. Also, I usually have seven or eight active teams that I switch between from battle to battle, which would be especially difficult when limited to in-game resources.
As far as stylistic differences go, my guess is that the volume, frequency, and proximity of Shoddy battles tend to make it much more dynamically stable than the Wi-fi world, despite the increased flexibility. The difference is likely the increased intermixing found on Shoddy, which leads to more rapid transmission of trends.
Many people like to criticize the Smogon community for being too dogmatic, especially when it comes to unorthodox pokemon/movesets, but I think it speaks volumes that, even with the ability to literally choose any set on any pokemon with a few clicks, players tend to gravitate to the same pokemon from month to month. However, contrary to popular belief, there is still a fair amount of creativity to be found on Shoddy, since, in such a standardized atmosphere, there is a large opportunity for surprise.
Also, I'm curious to know how many people play Wi-fi solely for the opportunity to play double battles, and how a potential implementation of this into Shoddy would affect Shoddy's popularity.
As far as stylistic differences go, my guess is that the volume, frequency, and proximity of Shoddy battles tend to make it much more dynamically stable than the Wi-fi world, despite the increased flexibility. The difference is likely the increased intermixing found on Shoddy, which leads to more rapid transmission of trends.
Many people like to criticize the Smogon community for being too dogmatic, especially when it comes to unorthodox pokemon/movesets, but I think it speaks volumes that, even with the ability to literally choose any set on any pokemon with a few clicks, players tend to gravitate to the same pokemon from month to month. However, contrary to popular belief, there is still a fair amount of creativity to be found on Shoddy, since, in such a standardized atmosphere, there is a large opportunity for surprise.
Also, I'm curious to know how many people play Wi-fi solely for the opportunity to play double battles, and how a potential implementation of this into Shoddy would affect Shoddy's popularity.
its like real poker vs online poker...online poker is much faster, you get more hands in the same amount of time BUT you are often less emotionally invested into each one of those hands.
iv been experimenting with shoddy. but have done some wifi...why do i use shoddy? to get a lot of quick battles in, so i can adust my shoddy team until imhappy with it and its results.
THEN ill go away and try to build that team with pokemon in the game itself.
shoddy is just a practice zone, ive noticed people come in to battle, lose their first move and then quit. because the matchups are so fast people dont mind spamming a start move just to tst if it works, and if they get interrupted or out moved they will just quit and find another match to try it on....
on wifi the amount of effort and time it takes to get a game going its not so easy to keep doing that.
ooc why is rotom a banned on wifi? and who does the banning? if i add a rotom a to m team and press wifi - does the game stop me froim using rotom, or is it more arbitary kids rules layered on top of the real game rules?
iv been experimenting with shoddy. but have done some wifi...why do i use shoddy? to get a lot of quick battles in, so i can adust my shoddy team until imhappy with it and its results.
THEN ill go away and try to build that team with pokemon in the game itself.
shoddy is just a practice zone, ive noticed people come in to battle, lose their first move and then quit. because the matchups are so fast people dont mind spamming a start move just to tst if it works, and if they get interrupted or out moved they will just quit and find another match to try it on....
on wifi the amount of effort and time it takes to get a game going its not so easy to keep doing that.
ooc why is rotom a banned on wifi? and who does the banning? if i add a rotom a to m team and press wifi - does the game stop me froim using rotom, or is it more arbitary kids rules layered on top of the real game rules?
Why wouldnt lucario just use close combat/aurasphere and why wouldnt heatran use fireblast? Also i thought gimmicks werent that popular due to how long training takes and that they generally get old far faster than reliable sets?
Sorry, I know I'm commenting on something from WAAY back in the thread, but I've just started watching Youtube battles, and this is something that struck me right off the bat.
An excellent example is Gigatitan battle #97 against "Smogon," where he rips on the guy for using a straight-up Smogon set... and then proceeds to lose. The thing about Smogon sets is that they're standards for a reason, and if another set will do better, people on Smogon will readily admit that.
I have comments on the whole Wi-Fi vs. Shoddy issue, but I'll save them for later.
IIRC, they were both Scarfed, the Heatran player was already locked into Earth Power, and he did not know that Lucario was also Scarfed. As for why Me First instead of a Fighting-type move, I guess because Me First is potentially more versatile assuming that you predict well? I don't know, it's not my set, and I was just using it as the first example that came to mind of the point I was making.
As for gimmicks being less popular due to training time, nearly every serious competitor on Youtube uses Pokesav to make Shoddy-like teams, for exactly that reason. The big justification for this is legendaries. Does a legit perfect Bold HP Fire Celebi even exist? If so, I bet it's extremely difficult to trade for. Some people do breed everything, though, particularly in the Wifi forums here on Smogon (and including me, but I'm not that competitive on Wifi), and of course such people are much less likely to use a gimmick.
I'd have to disagree about Wifi (Smogon) being full of less than flawless pokemon. With RNG abuse so widespread, flawless pokemon are just as common here as those with minor flaws. Pokemon with major flaws (IV's under 20) are fairly rare.
On Serebii, I bet their wifi metagame is a little different and overall less competitive, thus making the statements about less than flawless pokemon true.
On Serebii, I bet their wifi metagame is a little different and overall less competitive, thus making the statements about less than flawless pokemon true.
Quoted for extreme truth. PBR has it, why no love for us?
There is something interesting going through my head when someone says the "wifi metagame" and that is "what exactly is meant by that?"
On shoddy, you have mostly smogon players, or at the very least players who have some idea what they are doing. On wifi, everyone and everyone can get on, and say "Hey everyone! I'm the best! See how badly you lose!" And then they get buttraped by DDtar. A while ago, someone suggested a shoddy app for facebook, and the Idea was shot down because of the vast number of non competitive people on facebook. Someone mentioned that he thought Charizard would dominate On wifi, the equation is the same.
I think the wifi metagame is impacted mostly by hard to get legends. If your a normal player, who doesn't RNG or sav, it was almost impossible to get, say, a Raikou with passable IVs, much less a good Hidden Power, until HGSS came out. Take a look back at some trade threads from before the RNG was cracked if you want to see what that was like. Latias, Suicune, Raikou, wishbliss, and other insanely rare events. Theres a lot of hype and speculation surrounding Aura Sphere Raikou, but it will likely be a blip on the radar of wifi players.
Probably not OU, more like UU. If you don't know Furret's capabilities in doubles, you don't know doubles.