-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
The First Smogon Council - Salamence
- Thread starter Aeolus
- Start date
- Status
Well obviously unpredictability isn't the only reason he's been nominated for Uber. If that were the case, Smeargle would be an Uber! Obviously Lucario and Infernape both have the dominate set out of those two- looking at suspect stats, we can see that Lucario runs Swords Dance 87.2% of the time and is holding Specs 5.3% of the time. Obviously, Swords Dance is the dominant set, and once the surprise value of specs wears off, you have an underwhelming, easily manageable choiced attacker. Clearly, the swords dance set is the only viable one of the two.
As for Infernape, the vast majority of his sets are countered by the same pokemon, bulky waters. Physical Ape is only run 25.2% of the time (taking U-turn usage as the statistic). Unlike Specs Lucario, Physical Ape is, admittedly, pretty good in this metagame, but is worn down quickly by Life orb, all entry hazards, SS and spamming U-turn.
Dragonite, as we all know, is basically an inferior Salamence in every category except for support (for which I personally prefer Mence anyways, due to Intimidate and Wish, but that's somewhat irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make).
Yes, other Pokemon are unpredictable. But no other Pokemon has two unique sets, with entirely different counters, that both are extremely effective in the metagame and are both commonly used. Specs Lucario and Physical Ape and Dragonite in general will never be as dangerous as MixMence or DDMence, nor as prevalent.
tl;dr version: The difference between the above mentioned Pokemon and Salamence is that (1) Both of Salamence's set are used prevelantly because (2) both of them are extremely potent, or at least more potent that the aforementioned Pokemon.
No.
@Toxic Spork, I guess the point I'm trying to make is that listing attributes of Salamence does not determine his tier status. There is no statistical evidence supporting metagame centralization around Salamence. If he was so Uber, the metagame would center around Salamence checks such as Bulky Waters, Cresselia, Weavile, Mamoswine, and faster pokemon with Ice Moves. However, this is certainly not the case. You can point to Scizor being the #1 pokemon but that is clearly the quadruple threat of Salamence / Latias / Gengar / Tyranitar, with whom Scizor checks. The suspect data was a significant metagame shift, but was more geared towards the removal of Latias due to the immediate rise of Heatran and Infernape to top status.
I think most of the focus of this discussion has been on how well each Pokemon performs in a single battle against single Pokemon. If your Infernape uses Swords Dance on the switch-in and your opponent happens to use Vaporeon as their primary answer to Infernape, then you have just forced out Vaporeon and significantly weakened your opposition by taking advantage of Infernape's unpredictability. So yes, you could say that there isn't a 100% safe switch-in to Infernape in the metagame. However, this only reflects one side of the equation. Good players try to keep as much of their team hidden as possible until the right moment. Assuming the two players have never faced off before and don't know each others' teams, it is very possible that the obvious switch-in to Infernape is not Vaporeon, and is instead Starmie, or even a risky Gengar. If Starmie is sent in on SDnape, Nape is going to lose no matter what move it picked. What this means is, not only does Infernape (or any other Pokemon) need to predict correctly to beat its switch-ins, it needs to be running the right set. A blind attack will always be much more likely to hit something that it is no good against than something that it kills. Salamence is the only Pokemon in OU which this does not apply to. We are only discussing two sets here, and they use the same three or four attack moves, but no matter what you switch in, Salamence has a solid chance to blast right through it. There is no overlap for switch-ins to the two sets. Fire Blast and Draco Meteor alone tear through a huge portion of the metagame. By and large, the Pokemon that can switch into both of those moves and kill or force out Salamence are beaten by Dragon Dance. These odds, while not the 50-50 as touted by some on the pro-Uber side, are still too great to simply ignore. I think it's safe to say that regardless of which set it's running, and whether you believe Salamence is Uber or not, Salamence will always create a pretty high-stakes mindgame situation when it comes into play.
Now, after playing Suspect some more, I've changed my mind. Like some others have mentioned, I'm not entirely convinced that Salamence is Uber under any of the characteristics of an Uber anymore. Although it wreaks complete havoc on the metagame, it is just too easily worn down by residual damage to "win games" just like that. It also lacks Rayquaza's priority, even more massive attack stats, and Swords Dance, forcing it to lock itself into Outrage to beat a certain number of Pokemon. However, there is no denying that Salamence completely changes the type of metagame that OU is. A lot of Pokemon need to run Choice Scarf to check it and only it, and Steels have a lot more prominence than they otherwise would because of it. There's no denying that Steel is a good type, but Fire, Fighting, and Ground attacks are extremely common, and the existence of Salamence and its convenient resistances and immunities to each of the three really dampen their usage. Although Salamence may not perfectly fit the characteristics that we have defined for Uber Pokemon, I think it's still worth looking into whether its impact on the metagame is negative or not. After all, those characteristics were defined by Smogon, and can be changed by Smogon.
Now, after playing Suspect some more, I've changed my mind. Like some others have mentioned, I'm not entirely convinced that Salamence is Uber under any of the characteristics of an Uber anymore. Although it wreaks complete havoc on the metagame, it is just too easily worn down by residual damage to "win games" just like that. It also lacks Rayquaza's priority, even more massive attack stats, and Swords Dance, forcing it to lock itself into Outrage to beat a certain number of Pokemon. However, there is no denying that Salamence completely changes the type of metagame that OU is. A lot of Pokemon need to run Choice Scarf to check it and only it, and Steels have a lot more prominence than they otherwise would because of it. There's no denying that Steel is a good type, but Fire, Fighting, and Ground attacks are extremely common, and the existence of Salamence and its convenient resistances and immunities to each of the three really dampen their usage. Although Salamence may not perfectly fit the characteristics that we have defined for Uber Pokemon, I think it's still worth looking into whether its impact on the metagame is negative or not. After all, those characteristics were defined by Smogon, and can be changed by Smogon.
Jumpman said:
I'm not... Of course there are good reasons for the particular road that we're going through, which I mentioned. I was describing the two extremes as "blind", not what we're doing ("compromise" was a terrible word for it now that I think about it). Sorry if that wasn't clear before.
@ other dudes:
What I think people don't realize is that Lucario used to be primarily a Choice Specs user. Then, SD Lucario became popular and now it's hard to justify NOT using SD on Lucario. That doesn't mean Specs is bad. Also, have you guys even looked at Lucario's analysis? Specs is Lucario's second set.
I have yet to comment on this topic or read most of the posts within it, so my sincerest apologies if I bring up something mentioned already. I'm not in the mood for several paragraphs, but I would say that I agree that Mense should be Uber. Dragonite is essentially a more balanced version of Mense, and the latter's ban would give the former, one of my favorite pokemon of all time, a chance in the limelight.
played with earthworms stall team for about 40 games over the last two days, I did this to experiment on how "unpredictable" mence really is, DD is pretty much a joke when using a stall team as its easily checked by like everything except blissey on the team, the only hard part about mence is trying to guess its set when it comes in, but I do this with many pokemon. examples include
suicune - is it offensive or bulky?
infernape - is it special or physical mix?
gengar - life orb ? explosion sub? pain split? hp fire?
tyranitar - mixed? scarf? cb?
heatran - does it have explosion? is it safe for blissey to stay in
etc the list goes on. Anyways going on to mixmence vs stall, roost variants cause a little bit of trouble but its nothing that cant be taken care of, I faced more classic mixmences than new mixences, but I would say that classic > new in terms with dealing with stall. Not once did mixmence ever win a game for anyone. A lot of people think they can just slap a mixmence on a team and think they are good to go against stall, but this wasnt the case.
I can't believe people dont mention CB mence, that thing is pretty beastly and even won me a tour
suicune - is it offensive or bulky?
infernape - is it special or physical mix?
gengar - life orb ? explosion sub? pain split? hp fire?
tyranitar - mixed? scarf? cb?
heatran - does it have explosion? is it safe for blissey to stay in
etc the list goes on. Anyways going on to mixmence vs stall, roost variants cause a little bit of trouble but its nothing that cant be taken care of, I faced more classic mixmences than new mixences, but I would say that classic > new in terms with dealing with stall. Not once did mixmence ever win a game for anyone. A lot of people think they can just slap a mixmence on a team and think they are good to go against stall, but this wasnt the case.
I can't believe people dont mention CB mence, that thing is pretty beastly and even won me a tour
Flygon is overall a better choice user. Resistance to SR, and immunity to sand, spikes, t-spikes and thunderwave make it much more durable for the whole switch-in-switch-out game. Throw in U-Turn and Levitate, and you have a dragon that's arguably better at choice than Garchomp.
All Choiced' mence is good for is getting the power to make one kill. If raw power is all you want, Mixmence is pretty much better.
All Choiced' mence is good for is getting the power to make one kill. If raw power is all you want, Mixmence is pretty much better.
Extremespeed doesn't change the fact that Dnite is so damn slow. If Dnite is locked into any other move, you'll be wishing you have Mence instead.
I don't think SR weak Pokemon make great choicers anyway. Choice users need to switch constantly and getting in to do damage only a couple of times is a pretty raw deal.
Dragonite doesn't care that he's slow. He's outspeeding the Pokes that need to be outsped anyway (Mostly slower walls which Dragonite 2HKOs just like Mence, not to mention Fire Punch gets Skarm, which Mence has to resort to Fire Blast, which is unboosted). Revenging +1 50% Gyarados with Extremespeed is invaluable too.
yeah speed + intimidate is a lot better, and choice users are just all preference
@shrang, i find it a necessity to at least speed ties with base 100s so i want speed
It's true that weavile is a very useful pokemon, but the main reason he's not used a lot is that it's too easy to revenge kill him with scizor, who has become ever so popular.
However, I would like to say that weavile does do one other thing that makes him unique. Weavile is an excellent counter to latias. Weavile is one of the many reasons that latias shouldn't have been banned to ubers. Not to mention snorlax, blissey, tyranitar, choice scarf heracross, etc.
I wouldn't really say CB flygon is better than CB Chomp. Chomp can actually 2HKO Cress and Hippowdon with Outrage while Flygon can't. Plus Chomp has better defenses and more overall power.
If Dragonite is Choice banded, it's possible that it can 2HKO Gyarados. This sounds really useful just in case you make a mistake and let an opposing Gyarados stack up Dragon Dances. While Dragonite is slower compared to Mence, he has a better movepool (Superpower anyone) as well as more overall bulk.
Most things that will switch in on Dragonite will be slower than Dragonite anyways so speed seems to be hardly an issue here.
It can't take a Draco Meteor, but has a chance at coming into anything else and OHKO Latias with Ice Punch or Pursuit, so he makes a great check.
Well, he can't switch in directly, but he can revenge kill latias once he gets in. In fact, now that I think about it, that's your argument for salamence, right?? While it's true, that not much can switch into salamence, there's plenty of stuff that can easily revenge kill it. The same thing can be said for latias.
True. I'd say checking things is more Weavile's field, as very rarely does his defensive typing allow him to come in on most OUs with impunity. It is worth nothing that special attackers like Starmie can't KO you without rocks up.
So can just about anything else that fast...revenge killing doesn't mean anything, anything thats faster than something or has a decent priority move or scarf can revenge kill...
Then Weavile isn't a counter only a revenge killer, that is what everyone has said for the last 50 pages. Weavile and Mamoswine can only revenge kill Salamence or Dragonite or Latias. They are not or ever have been counters. They are Revenge Killers, please don't act as if they are counters.
Im not sure how that post was meant to be taken, be I am replying to the post which I had quoted, in that just about anything can revenge kill >.>, counter means exactly what you said. Im just saying that Weavile is not a counter, which is what this guy is trying to make Weavile out to be.
@Misa
Unless my calcs are incorrect (they could be) but I think that a CB Earthquake does
87.66% - 103.25% to the standard Scarf metagross. this has a 53.84% chance to OHKO factoring in SR. Judging from my calcs I don't really think that taking 87% on a switch in counts as a counter, nor can you state that "it can take on any attack by Mence" since Earthquake is crippling it on the switch in. Meaning that Salamence can freely switch out and your Salamence "Counter" is dead (or very near dead anyway).
But please, check my calcs first as I may have made a mistake.
Have a Nice day!
Unless my calcs are incorrect (they could be) but I think that a CB Earthquake does
87.66% - 103.25% to the standard Scarf metagross. this has a 53.84% chance to OHKO factoring in SR. Judging from my calcs I don't really think that taking 87% on a switch in counts as a counter, nor can you state that "it can take on any attack by Mence" since Earthquake is crippling it on the switch in. Meaning that Salamence can freely switch out and your Salamence "Counter" is dead (or very near dead anyway).
But please, check my calcs first as I may have made a mistake.
Have a Nice day!
Yeah, no one cares about whether or not Mence gets any usage after it's banned, since this process has absolutely nothing to do with helping Salamence. We're trying to help the standard metagame and determine whether or not Salamence is detrimental enough to warrant a ban.
I'd say it's worse than Specs Latias since we have both the physical and the special attacking stats to worry about, as well as the sheer amount of Pokemon Salemence checks to get in and start wreaking havoc to begin with. I would have much rather seen Mence go before Latias.
I'd say it's worse than Specs Latias since we have both the physical and the special attacking stats to worry about, as well as the sheer amount of Pokemon Salemence checks to get in and start wreaking havoc to begin with. I would have much rather seen Mence go before Latias.
With latias gone, teams are more free to run pokemon like bulky suicune/celebi/swampert, etc. These pokemon check dd mence while also having reasonable game against mix mence if they have to. The big problem with latias was that it overloaded steels so far, and made it to easy to win once they were worn away. DDmence is still good without latias to mess up the metagame, but not crazy like it was before. When I play standard I find that mence isnt just straight up winning me games like it did back in latias' standard.
On the suspect ladder, plenty of shit steps and shits all over stall just like mence allegedly did in standard. sub gengar, non-sub gengar, pretty much every gengar, all heatran except scarf, taunt gyarados, shaymin, infernape, and plenty of others. Gyarados, shaymin, and ape sure as hell aren't uber.
Pretty much every offensive team can run lucario+jolteon+sub gar and break stall every game without fail, and current suspect stall doesn't even run rapid spin except on something dumb like LO starmie that can easily be fainted, so roserade+sub rotom-a is also a stall break every game. No matter how we ban pokemon, there is always going to be a pokemon that can shit on stall. You can ban every ou sweeper, but gallade, raikou, and even dumb shit like ninetales will still go to work on stall. A balanced metagame is not one where every pokemon has a counter necessarily.
On the suspect ladder, plenty of shit steps and shits all over stall just like mence allegedly did in standard. sub gengar, non-sub gengar, pretty much every gengar, all heatran except scarf, taunt gyarados, shaymin, infernape, and plenty of others. Gyarados, shaymin, and ape sure as hell aren't uber.
Pretty much every offensive team can run lucario+jolteon+sub gar and break stall every game without fail, and current suspect stall doesn't even run rapid spin except on something dumb like LO starmie that can easily be fainted, so roserade+sub rotom-a is also a stall break every game. No matter how we ban pokemon, there is always going to be a pokemon that can shit on stall. You can ban every ou sweeper, but gallade, raikou, and even dumb shit like ninetales will still go to work on stall. A balanced metagame is not one where every pokemon has a counter necessarily.
- Status