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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

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Natts can be abused with his fighting Weakness. SKarm not.
Also
Skarm counter Dory(although some dory hinder skarm's progress). Natts not, its a shaky counter if you use it as counter.

Also experience in uber metagame told me that moltres is good. Fire flying aside 4x SR is good typing. Remember despite that moltres is top UU and a suspect at UU. Has he dont have 4x SR he might be OU back in gen 4. Oh about chazirzard ? unlike zard, moltres is an adept defensive pokemon and able to abuse its bulk to become sort of bulky attacker. Face it, zard sucks while moltres not. But when compared, zapdos is a bit equal. Moltres is best counter to scizor had you
wanted to. In this meta, it can OHKO nattrei unlike zapdos which sometime fail to OHKO with heat wave. Its STAB isnt get ahndled by gliscor(alho glis lose to HP ice zapdos).

ATLEAST moltres get will o wisp
 
iDunno said:
They are two completely different Pokemon. They do NOT outclass each other in the slightest. If you need a Ground Immunity choose Skarmory. If you need an electric and Water resist use Nattorei. If you need anti-water-type utility, use Nattorei. If you want to not be set up fodder for anything resistant to your attacks, choose Skarmory. If you don't want your Steel-type to add a Fighting-type weakness to your team, choose Skarmory. And also, Zapdos doesn't outclass Moltres at all... (exept for SR compound weakness but if you have anti-hazard utility, that's not a problem)
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Why are you nagging me about Skarm vs Natt? I'm not the one who says that one outclasses the other....... you're thinking of masterful.



And yes, Zapdos does outclass Moltres. Zapdos is faster, bulkier, only 2x SR weakness, and fewer weaknesses as well as more resistances.

It can get Fire coverage with Heat Wave and (near) perfect coverage with HP Ice, while Moltres has pretty limited coverage other than Flamethrower and Air Slash.

Zapdos can serve a support role better with Thunder Wave for status and AgiliPassing.

Zapdos does almost everything that Moltres can do, better.



masterful said:
1)So you're saying Zapdos and Moltres are equally good. Riiiight...
2)Listing off different typing does not make them have any different roles. DUH
3)Nat can easily protect+Leech Seed when it needs to and has great synergy with other pokes
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1) Your post looks good so far.
2) Your post looks good so far.
3) Because switching removes Leech Seed, It can be somewhat unreliable healing. I'd say that Skarmory has the superior recovery option.
 
JSND said:
Natts cna be abused with his fightingw Weakness. SKarm not.
Also
Skarm counter Dory(although some dory hinder skarm's progress). Natts not, its a shaky counter if you use it as counter.
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I agree completely. If you really need your wall to counter Dory, then use Skarm (but Breloom's better). Also, USE SPELL CHECK. IT takes like 3 seconds to do. And a fighting weakness and a lack of a fighting weakness don't make Nat or Skarm perform different roles at all. Skarm is still outclassed. Don't be pedantic about this. I understand the differences in typing. They don't make either poke different enough to put them in different roles
 
masterful said:
1)So you're saying Zapdos and Moltres are equally good. Riiiight...
2)Listing off different typing does not make them have any different roles. DUH
3)Nat can easily protect+Leech Seed when it needs to and has great synergy with other pokes
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1) Give me a solid disadvantage that Moltres has from Zapdos BESIDES Stealth Rock instead of just acting like an idiot and I might actually respect your opinion for once.
2)Ok then typings don't matter, your right. I guess my team full of fighting weaknesses with no real counters to threats like Terakion and Landlos is perfectly viable, according to you. I mean Nattorei has SO many advantages to Skarmory, that I'd be an IDIOT to actually think of using Skarmory on any of my teams.
3)What does that have to do with anything I said in my post? I didn't deny Nattorei was good. I just deny that an incredibly overrated poke should be treated as the end-all physical/special defensive Steel-type of 5th gen.

Seriously... Nattorei is overrated as shit.

Edit @ masterful:
masterful said:
Also, USE SPELL CHECK.
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Lay off, what if English is not his first language? Spell Check works differently on foreign computers. Some browsers don't even HAVE SPELLCHECK.

Edit 2: I know, my posts are mostly towards masterful, SlimMan. Also, Moltres deals with Scizor and Urugamosu way better than Zapdos can. Moltres can also actually be used on a Sun team.
 
JSND said:
Also experience in uber metagame told me that moltres is good. Fire flying aside 4x SR is good typing. Remember despite that moltres is top UU and a suspect at UU. Has he dont have 4x SR he might be OU back in gen 4. Oh about chazirzard ? unlike zard, moltres is an adept defensive pokemon and able to abuse its bulk to become sort of bulky attacker. Face it, zard sucks while moltres not. But when compared, zapdos is a bit equal. Moltres is best counter to scizor had you
wanted to. In this meta, it can OHKO nattrei unlike zapdos which sometime fail to OHKO iwth heat wave.
Click to expand...

No one said that Moltres wasn't good. Just that Zapdos does its job better (normally).

P.S.-Experience in Ubers is irrelevant to other tiers. That's like saying Psychic was a good type in RBY. It's not nearly as good in other metagames.


masterful said:
Skarm is still outclassed.
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No. It's not.
 
When Nattorei gets instant recovery and phazing, then I'll consider that they might be comparable. As it is, they serve different enough roles that one can't outclass the other unless you're using it wrong.
 
iDunno said:
1) Give me a solid disadvantage that Moltres has from Zapdos BESIDES Stealth Rock instead of just acting like an idiot and I might actually respect your opinion for once.
2)Ok then typings don't matter, your right. I guess my team full of fighting weaknesses with no real counters to threats like Terakion and Landlos is perfectly viable, according to you. I mean Nattorei has SO many advantages to Skarmory, that I'd be an IDIOT to actually think of using Skarmory on any of my teams.
3)What does that have to do with anything I said in my post? I didn't deny Nattorei was good. I just deny that an incredibly overrated poke should be treated as the end-all physical/special defensive Steel-type of 5th gen.

Seriously... Nattorei is overrated as shit.

Edit @ masterful:
Lay off, english is obviously not his first language. And Spell Check works differently on foreign computers. Some browsers don't even HAVE SPELLCHECK.

Edit 2: I know, my posts are mostly towards masterful, SlimMan.
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1)Spellcheck is built into the forums. Also, capitalization exists in every language
2)Zapdos:better typing. ABSURDLY better typing. You can't just ignore the Stealth Rock weakness and act like that makes you argument sound
3)Skarm can't do shit to Landlos or Terakion. Stone Edge hits like a truck even neutrally from either, and the best you can do is Whirlwind them out which, despite what you may believe, does not in fact remove them from the match entirely, as they can just come back in and own you. Outside of whirlwind and a fighting NEUTRALITY (btw, Nat RESISTS water and electric), Nat completely outclasses it.
 
iDunno said:
1) Give me a solid disadvantage that Moltres has from Zapdos BESIDES Stealth Rock instead of just acting like an idiot and I might actually respect your opinion for once.
2)Ok then typings don't matter, your right. I guess my team full of fighting weaknesses with no real counters to threats like Terakion and Landlos is perfectly viable, according to you. I mean Nattorei has SO many advantages to Skarmory, that I'd be an IDIOT to actually think of using Skarmory on any of my teams.
3)What does that have to do with anything I said in my post? I didn't deny Nattorei was good. I just deny that an incredibly overrated poke should be treated as the end-all physical/special defensive Steel-type of 5th gen.

Seriously... Nattorei is overrated as shit.

Edit @ masterful:
Lay off, english is obviously not his first language. And Spell Check works differently on foreign computers. Some browsers don't even HAVE SPELLCHECK.

Edit 2: I know, my posts are mostly towards masterful, SlimMan. Also, Moltres deals with Scizor and Urugamosu way better than Zapdos can. Moltres can also actually be used on a Sun team.
Click to expand...

I agree with your whole post, minus the Zapdos/Moltres thing.

HOWEVER, I've only been arguing for Gen4. I haven't used Moltres yet this Gen, so I cannot speak for Gen5. But please, don't deny that Zapdos was better in Gen4.

But everything else you said = true.

@ masterful,
When will you learn?
 
BTW my first is indonesian sorry

I must say nattrei is good. But as some said even in smogcast said. Nattreii IS OVERRATTED. Hes great, he resist many thing. Back in gen 4 i theorymonned a pokemon that can make grass OU and solid top pokemon must have grass steel type. Having resistance to many type including the infamous dragon/water coverage. Back then i think with that typing and abuseable 4x fire weakness, it will become a very central pokemon and nattrei is the revelation that it does good.

However that is mind from gen 4. in gen 5 fighting type is everywhere. Abusing nattrei is very easy. While you can do the same with skarm, skarm has whirlwind. Skarm didnt instant lose to Breelom(a popular pokemon in both DW or wifi metagame) in some situation mainly due to some rising in popularity mono attacker nattrei, it just plain sucks against loom(for example).
I must say he remind me of scizor back in gen 4. Uberusable, good, but so overatted that everyone carry shit like HP fire starmie.
Just use single slot to abuse him. You will be satisfied to see how deadweight abusable nattrei was when that happen.

Also skarm isnt easily outclassed. Skarm's flying STAB is useful in this metagame. Also skarm's ability to counter Doryuuzu is great. Doryuuzu alone is good enough reason.
(because dory is the biggest threat in gen 5 IMHHHHHO and NO ONE use Bulky Rapin Spin dory like me)
 
masterful said:
1)Spellcheck is built into the forums. Also, capitalization exists in every language
2)Zapdos:better typing. ABSURDLY better typing. You can't just ignore the Stealth Rock weakness and act like that makes you argument sound
3)Skarm can't do shit to Landlos or Terakion. Stone Edge hits like a truck even neutrally from either, and the best you can do is Whirlwind them out which, despite what you may believe, does not in fact remove them from the match entirely, as they can just come back in and own you. Outside of whirlwind and a fighting NEUTRALITY (btw, Nat RESISTS water and electric), Nat completely outclasses it.
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1) You haven't studied very many other languages, then. Also, periods exist in English.
2) I'll grant that the typing is better overall, but SR weakness alone doesn't automatically make it useless. That's what team support is for.
3) There's more to the metagame than two threats, and Nattorei has even more trouble with both of them. Whirlwind is much more useful than you give it credit for. Also, Roost. Stop ignoring that.
 
JSND said:
BTW my first is indonesian sorry

I must say nattrei is good. But as some said even in smogcast said. Nattreii IS OVERRATTED. Hes great, he resist many thing. Back in gen 4 i theorymonned a pokemon that can make grass OU and solid top pokemon must have grass steel type. Having resistance to many type including the infamous dragon/water coverage. Back then i think with that typing and abuseable 4x fire weakness, it will become a very central pokemon and nattrei is the revelation that it does good.

However that is mind from gen 4. in gen 5 fighting type is everywhere. Abusing nattrei is very easy. While you can do the same with skarm, skarm has whirlwing. Skarm didnt instant lose to Breelom in some situation while some rising in popularity mono attacker nattrei just plain sucks against loom. I mus say he remind me of scizor back in gen 4.
Uberusable, good, but so overatted that everyone carry shit like HP fire starmie.
Just use sintgle slot to abuse him. You will be satisfied to see how deadweight nattrei was when that happen
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1)Loom can do very little to Nattorei, as most carry only MP as their only fighting move
2)There aren't that many great fighting types outside of Conkeldurr that Nat can't deal with, and Skarm can't do anything to fighting types either with its crap attack and NEUTRALITY, I repeat NEUTRALITY to fighting moves. 3rd time, NEUTRALITY. You don't use Skarm to counter Fighting types
3)Does spellcheck work on your browser? Cause it's really irritating
 
masterful said:
1)Loom can do very little to Nattorei, as most carry only MP as their only fighting move
2)There aren't that many great fighting types outside of Conkeldurr that Nat can't deal with, and Skarm can't do anything to fighting types either with its crap attack and NEUTRALITY, I repeat NEUTRALITY to fighting moves. 3rd time, NEUTRALITY. You don't use Skarm to counter Fighting types
3)Does spellcheck work on your browser? Cause it's really irritating
Click to expand...

Everything is wrong with this post. Everything.
1) Spore
2) Not gonna bother
3) STFU
 
masterful said:
1)Loom can do very little to Nattorei, as most carry only MP as their only fighting move
2)There aren't that many great fighting types outside of Conkeldurr that Nat can't deal with, and Skarm can't do anything to fighting types either with its crap attack and NEUTRALITY, I repeat NEUTRALITY to fighting moves. 3rd time, NEUTRALITY. You don't use Skarm to counter Fighting types
3)Does spellcheck work on your browser? Cause it's really irritating
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1) I still see quite a few SubPunch Brelooms around, actually.
2) 80 Atk isn't that spectacular, but it still hurts behind a 120 BP STAB SE move. Skarmory kills plenty of stuff.
3) Get over it.
 
Mono attacker nattrei is very popular right now. And breelom can switch in easily getting sub in the process. That is really big. Against skarm, breelom is forced to spore or getting phazed.

Everyone dont realize that breelom's best set in this meta is undeniably Subpunch or Subseed. Subseed lose coverage but with Focus Punch, Sub and seed, it make an insane one poke killer and become even worse with entry hazzard, Subpunch is very anti meta.

Natt cant wall terrakion. Skarm cant too. Roobushin is 2HKO by brave bird while not by power whip. Also tauntmory beats nattrei match up. When comparing the two, i think as a whole natts doesnt completely triumph skarmory.

Let me just ask, since when giving free sub to breelom a good thing anyway ? you think when breelom switcch in it will always spore ? no. when breelom enter, he must sub first then act with opponent's move. This way, your chance to have good match up rise considerably
 
masterful said:
1)Loom can do very little to Nattorei, as most carry only MP as their only fighting move
2)There aren't that many great fighting types outside of Conkeldurr that Nat can't deal with, and Skarm can't do anything to fighting types either with its crap attack and NEUTRALITY, I repeat NEUTRALITY to fighting moves. 3rd time, NEUTRALITY. You don't use Skarm to counter Fighting types
3)Does spellcheck work on your browser? Cause it's really irritating
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1) With STAB, Technician and the super effective bonus you're still using a 180 base power Mach Punch off of 394 Atk. Natty gets 2HKOed by a CB Mach Punch.

2) Skarmory has a STAB, super effective move. Even without investment, it'll still hurt the Fighting types pretty badly.

3) Wahts raelly irritatng is you complaning abuot spellcehck.



masterful said:
BRELOOM OUTSPEEDS.
Skarm goes to beddie-bye
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Technically, Skarm could run max speed and Jolly to outrun all Adamant Breloom and tie with max speed Breloom.

I know that no one would ever do that, but I'm jus sayin...
 
skarm dont give free sub. Skarm pretty much force you to use spore. Theres a huge problem with that since skarm can just switch on 80 % chance to use spore to a check/counter or fodder for activating sleep clause. Then it switch in again to BB for OHKO(2 including Sub). Skarm can take some special move well. Basicaly theres too much niche to use skarm for rather than natts.
Mono natts that most people use give free sub. Free sub is just a very game making situation in every kind.
 
JSND said:
skarm dont gove free sub. Skarm pretty much force you to use spore. Thats a huge problem with that since skarm can just switch on 80 % chance to use spore to a check/counter or fodder for activating sleep clause. Then it switch in again to BB for OHKO(2 including Sub). Skarm can take some special move well. Basicaly theres too much niche to use skarm for rather than natts
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I understood very little of what you just said, but here's what I could respond to.
1)Nat has better stats. Equal defensively (or close to), better specially defensively, better attack
2)Nat takes specail moves far better
3)Skarm=free sub
Nat=free sub
no difference there
 
masterful said:
I understood very little of what you just said, but here's what I could respond to.
1)Nat has better stats. Equal defensively (or close to), better specially defensively, better attack
2)Nat takes specail moves far better
3)Skarm=free sub
Nat=free sub
no difference there
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1) This has already been covered repeatedly. Fighting neutrality and better STAB.
2) And you were complaining about spell check? Also, that's why you don't use Skarmory as a special wall.
3) You sub, Skarmory attacks, now you're back where you started with 25% less health. Not a free sub.
 
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