np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

[KurashiDragon]

When Garchomp was banned, I heard no outcry that it could have been saved sans Yache Berry and SD. When Salamence was banned, I heard nothing about bringing it back without DD, Draco Meteor, or Outrage. What makes X factor + Pokemon ban combinations all the rage now? Why is Blaze Blaziken any more worthy of support than any other individual set on the other Ubers?

The reason to this is actually quite simple when you think about it. It's because people are empowered. This all started when Inconsistent was banned. Given the timing of the ban pretty much everyone and their grandma was excited not because Inconsistent was banned but because of an ability ban. Probably the very first one too. (You'll have to forgive if I'm wrong I've only been around sense mid platinum.) Because of this everyone got ban happy. The second testing round brought about the very first complex ban in SwSw and drizzle. Now in the third testing round a simple ban has taken place in blaziken. Blaziken is controversial because before gen 5 it was low uu. However, like every single other pokemon Blaziken only needed one thing in order to shine. That thing happened to be speed boost. This instantly knocked it to high ou and eventually uber. People pretty much just connected the dots in the bravado of their complex ban and questioned Blaziken's ban. Speed Boost is the main factor in Blaziken's ban. Without it, it'd be uu once again. Completely overshadowed by Infernape. That's pretty much what I feel is going on.

Now for my own agenda. People we're right on the money with complex bans. Everyone got ban happy as soon as we introduced it. In fact how many people actually know that Ingrain Smeargle was banned just a short while ago for gen 3? Gen 3 for goodness sake. There's to much bravado now. We need to do something about it. I feel we need to stop the bans for now and discuss the bans we made. Mabye make a seperate server in which we can test the bans we've done so far and make adjustments where nessessary. Is the SwSw Drizzle ban really fair and what changes can we make to it if it isn't? just how overcentralizing is weather in the metagame. Just how bad are some pokemon like Reuniclus, (I'm don't want it to get banned but it's been controversial for a long time now) Garchomp, Thundurous, and every other suspect to the metagame? Unless we do proper testing the chaos that's currently occuring right now isn't gonna stop and eventually we're gonna have a very bad metagame.

 

[Arc Tech]

The reason to this is actually quite simple when you think about it. It's because people are empowered. This all started when Inconsistent was banned. Given the timing of the ban pretty much everyone and their grandma was exited not because Inconsistent was banned but because of an ability ban. Probably the very first one too. (You'll have to forgive if I'm wrong I've only been around sense mid platinum.) Because of this everyone got ban happy. The second testing round brought about a second complex ban in SwSw and drizzle. Now in the third testing round a simple ban has taken place in blaziken. Blaziken is controversial because before gen 5 it was low uu. However, like every single other pokemon Blaziken only needed one thing in order to shine. That thing happened to be speed boost. This instantly knocked it to high ou and eventually uber. People pretty much just connected the dots in the bravado of their complex bans and questioned Blaziken's ban. Speed Boost is the main factor in Blaziken's ban. Without it it'd be low uu. Completely overshadowed by Infernape. That's pretty much what I feel is going on.

Now for my own agenda. People we're right on the money with complex bans. Everyone got ban happy as soon as we introduced it. In fact how many people actually know that Ingrain Smeargle was banned just a short while ago for gen 3? Gen 3 for goodness sake. There's to much bravado now. We need to do something about it. I feel we need to stop the bans for now and discuss the bans we made. Mabye make a seperate server in which we can test the bans we've done so far and make adjustments where nessessary. Is the SwSw Drizzle ban really fair and what changes can we make to it if it isn't? just how overcentralizing is weather in the metagame. Just how bad are some pokemon like Reuniclus, (I'm don't want it to get banned but it's been controversial for a long time now) Garchomp, Thundurous, and every other suspect to the metagame? Unless we do proper testing the chaos that's currently occuring right now isn't gonna stop and eventually we're gonna have a very bad metagame.

None of the reasons you give really apply to why people only want SB blaziken banned, bar 3 which is flawed logic (point 3).

1) The Moody ban is not a complex ban; it is a simple blanket ban, requiring only one condition, that the pokemon have the ability moody. It is a case of a broken factor, not a case of a pokemon being broken with a combination of factors.

2) Aldaron's proposal, while "complex", did not apply to a single pokemon but to a team as a whole, and therefore provides no precedent.

3) Speed Boost is not the only change that happened to Blaziken. He also acquired the newly-buffed Hi Jump Kick. Without it, he'd have no way past bulky waters, and would be forced to run Flare Blitz over blaze kick, probably even with sun support, making it all the easier to kill. In addition, other fire resists, such as garchomp, have an easier time with him. Without Hi Jump Kick, speed boost blaziken could probably be low-mid OU (very dangerous if it set up, but stoppable by most bulky waters afterwards, and ahs trouble setting up against more offensive teams).


And ingrain smeargle? I haven't played gen 3, but... after all this time? People are getting ban happy.

In my opinion, it's not complexity but arbitrariness that matters (removing broken things only has 1 way to do it, nerfing them has many), but they often mean the same thing, so I digress.

 

[yee]

Does anyone else think all weather abilities that automatically double your speed should get the Aldaron's proposal treatment? If you're not using weather, Chlorosaur and Excadrill will just mow you down, it takes a dedicated defensive core to stop them and because Choice Scarfers can't outspeed them, offensive teams must rely on a single weather stopper to have any hope at regaining an advantage. This takes a turn, makes you take a hit, then weather inducer comes right back in and sets up for next to no consequence. There isn't a "random hail user" that can stand in front of all the weather sweepers, therefore non-weather teams have crap chances of surviving against the sweepers that get free base 200 speed without a dedicated defensive core to deal with all of them, evidence is in the fact that all of the weather-free teams ive seen higher up are stall/defensive based teams, offensive teams can't fit it in a core or outrun these sweepers so it is a huge disadvantage to be facing weather- sun in particular.

I want "widespread Aldaron's proposal" so that all weathers are treated equally, random pokemon don't effectively have roughly 200 base speed and so teams without weather can be offensive without getting outclassed by it. Boosted Fire/Water moves and Hurricanes aren't broken, but removing weather based speed doubling abilities (alongside auto-inducers) would be beneficial to the metagame because we keep both offensive and defensive versions of all weathers, we gain a much more viable version of non-weather offense and the metagame becomes less centralized around 5 pokemon.

I would like a good response to this because personally I would like to have this tested, but I do realize there are people who know better than me.

 

[Blackdragonking]

I don't think that Chlorophyll is such a big deal, though; the strongest user of the ability is probably Venusaur, and even he's not broken with it, just a lot stronger than he normally is. Swift Swim was such a problem because most of the things that got it also get a double STAB on their attacks, and water is one of the best types, so they were obscenely fast, had good neutral coverage on offense and defense, and got a big power boost. Chlorophyll sweepers don't get that stuff, they just get really fast.

And Sand Rush is only really a concern on Excadrill, really, so if he was too much of a problem, it'd only really need to be an Excadrill ban.

As for Deoxys-S and Latios, good riddance if they do get banned. :/

 

[yee]

Its not the individual sweepers, its the combination of them (Venusaur, Sawsbuck, Excadrill, Swift Swimmers etc.) that a non-weather team without a serious defensive core cannot hope to consistenly win against. Getting rid of the abilities that double their speed alongside their auto-weather which means they require absolutely no setup preserves all existing playstyles and makes offense without weather viable. At the moment you cant use a Choice Scarfer, priority attacker, or single weather inducer to keep them at bay.

 

[KurashiDragon]

None of the reasons you give really apply to why people only want SB blaziken banned, bar 3 which is flawed logic (point 3).

1) The Moody ban is not a complex ban; it is a simple blanket ban, requiring only one condition, that the pokemon have the ability moody. It is a case of a broken factor, not a case of a pokemon being broken with a combination of factors.

2) Aldaron's proposal, while "complex", did not apply to a single pokemon but to a team as a whole, and therefore provides no precedent.

3) Speed Boost is not the only change that happened to Blaziken. He also acquired the newly-buffed Hi Jump Kick. Without it, he'd have no way past bulky waters, and would be forced to run Flare Blitz over blaze kick, probably even with sun support, making it all the easier to kill. In addition, other fire resists, such as garchomp, have an easier time with him. Without Hi Jump Kick, speed boost blaziken could probably be low-mid OU (very dangerous if it set up, but stoppable by most bulky waters afterwards, and ahs trouble setting up against more offensive teams).


And ingrain smeargle? I haven't played gen 3, but... after all this time? People are getting ban happy.

In my opinion, it's not complexity but arbitrariness that matters (removing broken things only has 1 way to do it, nerfing them has many), but they often mean the same thing, so I digress.

1. Never once did I say Moody was a complex ban. I was simply referring to the complexity of the situation when combining all these factors.

2. The point I was trying to make was not to the individual pokemon but to the proposal itself being complex.

3. Hi Jump Kick was buffed this gen that much is true. However, Speed Boost is the main reason as to why Blaziken was banned in the first place.

Before gen 5 there was a general minority on complex bans because of situations like this. Now that the general opinion has changed on complex bans people's opinion's have changed as well. While it is still a minority it still seems like enough to cause chaos in discussions and potential suspects. The prime example would be in the SwSw Drizzle ban. A majority voted for a complex ban instead of outright banning the suspects or Drizzle. That proof shows just how much the general ban process has changed from the days in gen 4. It's getting to that point where Complex bans will soon be supported instead of rejected.

Simply put the complexity of these bans and proposals together have changed opinions from the gen 4 way of thinking and it's really starting to show.

 

[Thorhammer]

When Garchomp was banned, I heard no outcry that it could have been saved sans Yache Berry and SD. When Salamence was banned, I heard nothing about bringing it back without DD, Draco Meteor, or Outrage. What makes X factor + Pokemon ban combinations all the rage now? Why is Blaze Blaziken any more worthy of support than any other individual set on the other Ubers?

That happened because a Pokemon + Ability ban is by far the most reasonable type of complex ban, and people are aware that they can support such a ban while staying within reasonable limits, which is not the case for a Pokemon + Move or a Pokemon + Item ban.

Some might suggest that that isn't the case, but it's clearly true based on things such as this.

 

[SJCrew]

That happened because a Pokemon + Ability ban is by far the most reasonable type of complex ban

And I'm willing to bet you can't give me any good reasoning as to why.

 

[Thorhammer]

And I'm willing to bet you can't give me any good reasoning as to why.

Limited, specific possibilities.

If you're going to say a set is broken because of a move, you have to isolate a move, and they might all be equally to blame. If you're going to say a set is broken because of an ability, there's only one ability that could possibly matter, and it's clear enough when that ability and only that ability can make that Pokemon or set broken, because a Pokemon only has two or three abilities, maximum, and they all differ greatly in their impact. Unless the abilities don't differ that much, in which case a Pokemon + Ability ban probably isn't the best idea.

 

[Benlisted]

Does anyone else think all weather abilities that automatically double your speed should get the Aldaron's proposal treatment? If you're not using weather, Chlorosaur and Excadrill will just mow you down, it takes a dedicated defensive core to stop them and because Choice Scarfers can't outspeed them, offensive teams must rely on a single weather stopper to have any hope at regaining an advantage. This takes a turn, makes you take a hit, then weather inducer comes right back in and sets up for next to no consequence. There isn't a "random hail user" that can stand in front of all the weather sweepers, therefore non-weather teams have crap chances of surviving against the sweepers that get free base 200 speed without a dedicated defensive core to deal with all of them, evidence is in the fact that all of the weather-free teams ive seen higher up are stall/defensive based teams, offensive teams can't fit it in a core or outrun these sweepers so it is a huge disadvantage to be facing weather- sun in particular.

I want "widespread Aldaron's proposal" so that all weathers are treated equally, random pokemon don't effectively have roughly 200 base speed and so teams without weather can be offensive without getting outclassed by it. Boosted Fire/Water moves and Hurricanes aren't broken, but removing weather based speed doubling abilities (alongside auto-inducers) would be beneficial to the metagame because we keep both offensive and defensive versions of all weathers, we gain a much more viable version of non-weather offense and the metagame becomes less centralized around 5 pokemon.

I would like a good response to this because personally I would like to have this tested, but I do realize there are people who know better than me.

I was thinking about your idea of removing the speed-boosting abilities similarly to Aldaron's Proposal did for rain, and I came across a few issues. For one thing, Excadrill is the only such mon for SS, which makes applying the whole thing across the board seem unfair, since if we're going to restrict Excadrill for anything involving its ability (and repeated tests have found it unbroken even with that) it would essentially function as banning it - or just making it a counter to SS teams not allowed to run it themselves.

Secondly, the same almost applies to Sun in terms of their speed boosting abilities. Packing any more than 2 Chlorophyllers on a team is generally not very viable if a Sun team wants to succeed, meaning that packing 3+ SwSwers on one team like Rain used to due to their great typing is simply not a good choice for it. A dedicated defensive core also isn't the only thing Sun falls to. Random combinations of the mons who wall their sweepers (and there are multiples for each - Blissey, Tran, Chandelure for Venu; Skarmory, Gengar, Ferrothorn for Sawsbuck for instance) give Sun huge trouble if played reasonably, as they frequently lack recovery and run both LO and recoil moves, meaning the sweepers can be worn down by a combination of residual damage and recoil.

I'm not trying to say that non-weather teams have an easy time beating Sun or any weather for that matter, but well constructed ones give at least the weather I play - Sun - hell if evenly matched. At the top of the ladder I admittedly don't know how this balance works out, but if its anything like what I'm currently seeing then I simply wouldn't call either of the other two speed-boosting abilities broken and needing a ban.

 

[Gneiss is nice]

Does anyone else think all weather abilities that automatically double your speed should get the Aldaron's proposal treatment? If you're not using weather, Chlorosaur and Excadrill will just mow you down, it takes a dedicated defensive core to stop them and because Choice Scarfers can't outspeed them, offensive teams must rely on a single weather stopper to have any hope at regaining an advantage. This takes a turn, makes you take a hit, then weather inducer comes right back in and sets up for next to no consequence. There isn't a "random hail user" that can stand in front of all the weather sweepers, therefore non-weather teams have crap chances of surviving against the sweepers that get free base 200 speed without a dedicated defensive core to deal with all of them, evidence is in the fact that all of the weather-free teams ive seen higher up are stall/defensive based teams, offensive teams can't fit it in a core or outrun these sweepers so it is a huge disadvantage to be facing weather- sun in particular.

I want "widespread Aldaron's proposal" so that all weathers are treated equally, random pokemon don't effectively have roughly 200 base speed and so teams without weather can be offensive without getting outclassed by it. Boosted Fire/Water moves and Hurricanes aren't broken, but removing weather based speed doubling abilities (alongside auto-inducers) would be beneficial to the metagame because we keep both offensive and defensive versions of all weathers, we gain a much more viable version of non-weather offense and the metagame becomes less centralized around 5 pokemon.

I would like a good response to this because personally I would like to have this tested, but I do realize there are people who know better than me.

The difference is that Swift Swim pokemon are mostly Water type, so in Rain, they outspeed everything and get a massive boost to their STAB. Chlorophyll is only on Grass types, which don't get Fire moves and miss out on the Fire damage boost, and furthermore, they're actually weak to Fire, which gets a big boost.

So Swift Swim pokemon are super fast and mow down everything with super boosted Water moves, while Chlorophyll pokemon only get the speed boost and are extra vulnerable to Fire attacks (they do get instant Solarbeam, though, but Water also gets 100% accuracy Thunder and Hurricane).

As for Sand Rush, there's also no move boosting, Sandstorm only gives a bonus to SpD on Rock types (I don't know how many Sand Rush users are Rock, I think most are Ground).

 

[masterful]

None of the reasons you give really apply to why people only want SB blaziken banned, bar 3 which is flawed logic (point 3).

1) The Moody ban is not a complex ban; it is a simple blanket ban, requiring only one condition, that the pokemon have the ability moody. It is a case of a broken factor, not a case of a pokemon being broken with a combination of factors.

2) Aldaron's proposal, while "complex", did not apply to a single pokemon but to a team as a whole, and therefore provides no precedent.

3) Speed Boost is not the only change that happened to Blaziken. He also acquired the newly-buffed Hi Jump Kick. Without it, he'd have no way past bulky waters, and would be forced to run Flare Blitz over blaze kick, probably even with sun support, making it all the easier to kill. In addition, other fire resists, such as garchomp, have an easier time with him. Without Hi Jump Kick, speed boost blaziken could probably be low-mid OU (very dangerous if it set up, but stoppable by most bulky waters afterwards, and ahs trouble setting up against more offensive teams).


And ingrain smeargle? I haven't played gen 3, but... after all this time? People are getting ban happy.

In my opinion, it's not complexity but arbitrariness that matters (removing broken things only has 1 way to do it, nerfing them has many), but they often mean the same thing, so I digress.

Arc, the reason Smeargle was banned was because the tour includes ADV and it was decided that Baton Pass teams would need to be nerfed in order to have a balanced metagame for that tier.

 

[IcyMan28]

Arc, the reason Smeargle was banned was because the tour includes ADV and it was decided that Baton Pass teams would need to be nerfed in order to have a balanced metagame for that tier.

Yeah, they decided this like 7 years after the fact. Weren't there advance tours last gen and in Gen 3 as well? If there is any metagame that hasn't changed, it is ADV, so this postmortem banning is just the community's banhappiness as a whole.

Does anyone have any idea when the next round starts?

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Yeah, they decided this like 7 years after the fact. Weren't there advance tours last gen and in Gen 3 as well? If there is any metagame that hasn't changed, it is ADV, so this postmortem banning is just the community's banhappiness as a whole.

Does anyone have any idea when the next round starts?

People had a "honor code" back in ADV, the newcomers don't, so they would abuse BP Chains like hell. There's a thread on PR about it, if you're interested; I don't think this suspect testing was a good idea to begin with, but it was reasonable still.

 

[JSND]

Well why SwSw is broken AND better compared to SR

They have :

1. Dual boosting. As everyone said, Dual boosting is HUGE. YOu get boost on both side making you hard to stop. Its even worse considering you are....

2 Water Type. Water Typing is just crazy lets face it. Water have 2 weakness, 1 that is now stopped by Ferro which cant take upward 3 Specs Hydro from Kingdra even worse factoring Spikes and he cant handle many threats in rain as well. Water has semi Dragon Coverage. Yeah 2 resist 1 abilitymune. BUT you have stronger move when rain boosted, its bassicaly Dragon with worse coverage better power. NOW considering Ttar, the most common anti Rain pokemon used, is weak to water....

3. Diverse attack. SwSw has the most abuser and all of them are great. However they also have one defining things. They have diverse attack typing and stats wise. Look at the Broken Trio(Kingdra, Colo, Tops) All three of them can play offensive role in awesome ways and all three of them can go physical and special except Tops. Kingdra can even go mixed. This already give advantage to SwSw


Some easy and simplest reason why SwSw is better and uncomparable

 

[Ulevo]

When Garchomp was banned, I heard no outcry that it could have been saved sans Yache Berry and SD. When Salamence was banned, I heard nothing about bringing it back without DD, Draco Meteor, or Outrage. What makes X factor + Pokemon ban combinations all the rage now? Why is Blaze Blaziken any more worthy of support than any other individual set on the other Ubers?

Just like to point out that during the time Salamence was being nominated for a ban by the community, there were people who were advocating the removal of either Outrage or Draco Meteor, under the pretense that it wasn't just Salamence by itself that was leading to its inevitable ban, but that Salamence + other Dragon type support with these supposedly "broken" moves was pushing the creme of the crop (Salamence) over the top and resulting in the nominations.

So yes, there were people nominating those moves. However, it didn't get very far.

 

[SJCrew]

If you're going to say a set is broken because of a move, you have to isolate a move, and they might all be equally to blame.

Swift Swim + Drizzle is the exact opposite of isolation: it is a combo, the same way any Pokemon + move, or Pokemon + ability is a combo. There really isn't much difference this time around, save for a few dissenters trying to get us to believe that Blaziken with one ability should be regarded differently than Blaziken with another.

We can easily apply this extension to moves and say Pokemon without their best moves aren't as good and should be allowed within a certain tier. And it would be true, to an extent: we changed the Pokemon at our convenience to force it into the tier we wanted. We've done it twice already and can probably do it again, but there's simply no good arguments as to why we should even bother saving Blaze Blaziken. If the best you can do is appeal to the principle that we banned two different Blaziken for the price of one, you might as well give up because it's not going to make it to the polls.

 

[iDunno]

The main reason that this Suspect testing process has gotten out of control is that there used to be a paragraph system and now there isn't. Before, you had to PROVE you were intelligent by providing detailed reasoning for your opinion. Sure, you could just bullshit it, but if you are able to bullshit something well enough, it shows that you are moderately intelligent and understand what the argument is about. This new system where "everybody can join" is toxic and introduces the common factor, stupidity, into the system. This leads into the seeping of baseless opinions like "ban move x therefore Pokemon y is not broken" into the official process. Just because someone is good at the game doesn't mean they understand why they are good at the game. They don't understand the mechanics that led to their success and the reason that led to the downfall of others. "Oh, I got my rating high enough because I am a quality Pokemon player" "Oh really? What's your strategy?" "I sweep with Blaziken." "Oh? How do you sweep with Blaziken?" "I use SD and then spam HJK. Blaziken's pretty broken, but if I couldn't use HJK, I would probably have a much harder time using it. I think it should be banned on Blaziken so I can still abuse it and so I don't have to change my team, because this team is the only real success I had in the metagame and I don't think I can recreate a team as successful as this one is." "Well, good thing you aren't a part of the suspect process then." "Oh no, I am; my rating is at 1400. It's never been even close to that before; my team must be awsom!"

 

[Nanoswine]

Suspects aren't even put up for nomination unless there are well-reasoned arguments for why they should be. And do you really think someone at 1400 rating could have gotten there if they didn't understand the metagame well enough to vote on it? Give me a break.

 

[Ulevo]

The problem is not about the voters being stupid. Again, I beg for proof that someone who isn't at least remotely intelligent can top the ladder.

The problem lies in the fact that we've been given too much room for our opinion. Voters have too much say in what goes on, and its become a classic example of give an inch, take a mile. Voters know what they can get away with---and they've even convinced themselves that they don't have to ban things under the premise that they're broken; they feel they can ban things they simply dislike. And that's what is happening.

 

[masterful]

Yeah, they decided this like 7 years after the fact. Weren't there advance tours last gen and in Gen 3 as well? If there is any metagame that hasn't changed, it is ADV, so this postmortem banning is just the community's banhappiness as a whole.

Does anyone have any idea when the next round starts?

It's not banhappiness, it's an oversight in the banning process. It was decided that BP Teams should've been nerfed previously. This is not a period of banhappiness, it is one of a greater understanding, and thus we can more clearly ascertain how a metagame works and what does not belong in the metagame.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

The combination and usage of Mean Look+Sleep Move+Perish Song wasn't banned from GSC until DPP...

lawyered

 

[Syberia]

The main reason that this Suspect testing process has gotten out of control is that there used to be a paragraph system and now there isn't. Before, you had to PROVE you were intelligent by providing detailed reasoning for your opinion. Sure, you could just bullshit it, but if you are able to bullshit something well enough, it shows that you are moderately intelligent and understand what the argument is about. This new system where "everybody can join" is toxic and introduces the common factor, stupidity, into the system. This leads into the seeping of baseless opinions like "ban move x therefore Pokemon y is not broken" into the official process. Just because someone is good at the game doesn't mean they understand why they are good at the game. They don't understand the mechanics that led to their success and the reason that led to the downfall of others. "Oh, I got my rating high enough because I am a quality Pokemon player" "Oh really? What's your strategy?" "I sweep with Blaziken." "Oh? How do you sweep with Blaziken?" "I use SD and then spam HJK. Blaziken's pretty broken, but if I couldn't use HJK, I would probably have a much harder time using it. I think it should be banned on Blaziken so I can still abuse it and so I don't have to change my team, because this team is the only real success I had in the metagame and I don't think I can recreate a team as successful as this one is." "Well, good thing you aren't a part of the suspect process then." "Oh no, I am; my rating is at 1400. It's never been even close to that before; my team must be awsom!"

Yes, let's go back to a system in which one inherently subjective trait, writing ability, is used as a stand-in for another inherently subjective trait, perceived intelligence. And to top it all off, let's have a single person with no accountability (because, let's face it, how can you have accountability when you're making subjective decisions about such a subjective trait) determining who gets to vote or not largely based on whether or not he agrees with their position/reasoning. Isn't that the point of a vote in the first place, because everyone's opinion will be different?

Yes, there will be votes that get through from time to time that we all think are "stupid." But that's a necessary evil if we're going to have a fair process, and as a whole they get cancelled out.

 

[scorchedsky]

Y'know threads like this and attitudes like this are the reason that I don't really play pokemon anymore.

"Blaziken is the chomp of gen 5" are you serious? Did you play with SB Blaziken for a year and a half? The game has been out in the US for a month now. 1 month. There is not even a US Dream World yet. There were glitches in PO until a few months ago, and there aren't even detailed statistics available yet! People say the community is ban-happy, but they're ban-ecstatic.

Banning things used to be a big deal. It used to be avoided. Smogon has always been (at least as far as I can recall) opposed to bans in general, and uses only as many as necessary. Yet there's already a complex ban and a pokemon+ability ban in gen 5, after a month of actual US gameplay?

Everyone here really just needs to reevaluate their mindset, or at least be clear about what it is that they want. Smogon needs to say outright that they think bans are good, and primarily want a "popular metagame" instead of one with the fewest bans. As long as Smogon will say that's their stance, I'll understand this absurdity. But if people really want to ban SB Blaziken and say "we are banning the minimum number of things to make the game balanced," they need a reality check.

 

[ginganinja]

you said it yourself, you don't play pokemon so firstly I am not sure why you are complaining so much about this when it does not even affect you. A selection of voters who had played in a metagame with Blaziken for approx 1 month received voting reqs and declared Blaziken Uber (for reasons in this thread), by a super majority. Sufficient time was devoted to seeing if Blaziken was uber and indeed it was. Smogon attempts to make a balanced and enjoyable metagame which cannot be achieved if there are broken pokemon in the metagame.

Banning things used to be a big deal. It used to be avoided. Smogon has always been (at least as far as I can recall) opposed to bans in general, and uses only as many as necessary. Yet there's already a complex ban and a pokemon+ability ban in gen 5, after a month of actual US gameplay?

oh the irony. Using your example Smogon DID attempt to make the least bans possible. It banned Moody instead of banning Bidoof, Octillery etc etc and declared a swift swim + Drizzle ban instead of banning things like Kingdra, Ludicolo or just Politoad. SO basically using your own examples Smogon did make the smallest number of bans it could.