np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

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SJCrew said:
In theory, of course. Not enough Pokemon are running Taunt in this metagame at all, let alone anything fast enough to actually do it for that to be a serious deterrent. And if Deo-D starts becoming popular, I'm curious as to how many of the Pokemon that even learn Taunt can find any space for it on their moveset.
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Yeah, that's the thing in hindsight: There's quite a few good users, like Hydreigon, Gliscor, Gyarados, Tyranitar, etc, but how many of them can afford to invest a moveslot for that this generation?

THE ENEMY said:
If we are going to talk bans, lets talk bans. But, dont bring up a no-brainer.
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Okay, so tell me, what's a "no-brainer"? That your "opinion" that Reuniclus should be banned is the only correct one? Just no. Fuck no. How dare I have a differing opinion on the matter! How dare I think that Reuniclus isn't broken, just powerful! Another note, read an entire argument before you comment. Just ignoring the entire thing just because of one thing you patently disagree with is the fastest way to piss me off.

By the way, I used a specially defensive Drapion back in Generation IV and actually hit 1450+ ladder ranking using it, so it's not that bad, if not a bit outclassed, but then again, this is a different generation with Garchomps and such running around, so I haven't bothered to run it since.

Thing is, Reuniclus really suffers from the likes of Jirachi, Metagross, Trick users, etc. Jirachi and Metagross can muscle their way through the psychic fetus by virtue of their bulk, Psychic resist, and either hard-hitting STAB or paraflinch abuse, TR nonwithstanding. Trick shuts it down by making it completely useless. Hell, if you're feeling ballsy, use Gastro Acid to get rid of Magic Guard. Or even Unaware Quagsire with some special bulk. Besides, I know what the hell I'm talking about. I was in the top 100 on the smogon server a bit ago but dropped off due to unforseen circumstances.
 
I thought most Gyarados ran Taunt and Hydreigon needs Taunt to set it apart from Latios. Also, despite being rare Taunt Gliscor are not uncommon.
 
Demo-Kun said:
Yeah, that's the thing in hindsight: There's quite a few good users, like Hydreigon, Gliscor, Gyarados, Tyranitar, etc, but how many of them can afford to invest a moveslot for that this generation?



Okay, so tell me, what's a "no-brainer"? That your "opinion" that Reuniclus should be banned is the only correct one? Just no. Fuck no. How dare I have a differing opinion on the matter! How dare I think that Reuniclus isn't broken, just powerful! Another note, read an entire argument before you comment. Just ignoring the entire thing just because of one thing you patently disagree with is the fastest way to piss me off.

By the way, I used a specially defensive Drapion back in Generation IV and actually hit 1450+ ladder ranking using it, so it's not that bad, if not a bit outclassed, but then again, this is a different generation with Garchomps and such running around, so I haven't bothered to run it since.

Thing is, Reuniclus really suffers from the likes of Jirachi, Metagross, Trick users, etc. Jirachi and Metagross can muscle their way through the psychic fetus by virtue of their bulk, Psychic resist, and either hard-hitting STAB or paraflinch abuse, TR nonwithstanding. Trick shuts it down by making it completely useless. Hell, if you're feeling ballsy, use Gastro Acid to get rid of Magic Guard. Or even Unaware Quagsire with some special bulk. Besides, I know what the hell I'm talking about. I was in the top 100 on the smogon server a bit ago but dropped off due to unforseen circumstances.
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@ Last paragraph
What about Reuniclus that carry HP-Fire for Escavalier, Metagross, Scizor, etc.? I also thought that max Attack CB Scizor U-Turn didn't OHKO, but I haven't done any calcs (Although I do remember one time that I lost to it since U-Turn didn't kill)

Not arguing to ban Reuni, just saying that I'm certain he can beat the Steels if he happens to carry TR and HP-Fire (Or only one of them)
 
I think Reuniclus is definately broken. There are things that beat it, but they have to be at 100% to do so, so you're basically fighting 5-6 down from the start until you get rid of it. Additionally, Scizor is hard to keep alive at the moment because literally everything is running HP Fire for Ferrothorn. That adds up to an unusable team member. Special Defensive Jirachi is an intersting counter. You are basically relying 100% on luck to win the match. On top of that, +1 focus blast does like 48%, so Rachi has to be in good health or it can lose. The TR set also deals huge damae to Jirachi - it will take at least 40% before it paralyzes and Reni is still faster so unless parahax strikes it can hit you again. Yes, there are things that can kill Reuniclus. But they are very very specific. If it has Shadow Ball it can break through Deo-D with a little luck. If it uses FB as you switch in and gets a spdef drop, you may have just lost. Consider Reuniclus versus Garchomp. Chomp can beat any of its counters without huge difficulty with Sand Veil, but even when specifics are gone, you can play around it to eventually get a Burn of somesuch. Reuniclus can't be played around - If it's counter dies, you probaby just lost the game. What it does is immediately put you on the back foot, because you are limited by it's existence. It gives the user free momentum by existing. That's unquestionably broken.
 
Sp.Def Tta say high, Ttar can survive unboosted Focus Blast and hit back with STAB Crunch or Pursuit.
Can anybody give me a good 5th gen damage calc, similar to the Smogon one?
 
I think that the frustrating thing for many is that Reuniclus basically forces you to run specialised checks in order to defeat it. In addition, many checks are avoided by switching out. For example using Trick to check Reuniclus is like using Balloon Tran to counter Excadrill.Techniqually you counter it, but if Excadrill uses RS on the switch or Reuniclus switchs out of your Trick user then you may have lost the game. Roar uses lose if Reuniclus is the last poke which pretty much leaves SDef Jirachi, T-Tar and Scizor as pretty much the top checks. All dislike switching into a Focus Blast and Rotom W actually beats all three of those.

Stall has a tougher chance at beating it. Granted Taunt Mew/Deoxys/Jellicent all "beat it" but asside from Tyranitar there really are a lack of viable options for stall in order to check it well. Basically Reuniclus has triggered a fair bit of centralisation but with the right team support, its quite easy for it to sweep. I do not think Reuniclus is "unquestionably broken" but it certainly deserves suspect status at the very least.
 
KurashiDragon said:
The only reason Latios is in a "Ferrothorn / Jirachi / Tyranitar-infested metagame" is because latios is in the metagame. Specially defensive Jirachi was made specifically to check Latios, ferrothorn takes 33% min from specs latios Draco meteor, (This does not make it a counter) and CB Pursuit was made for stuff like Latios. (Apart from the fact that Tyranitar is a weater starter :D)
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Special Defensive Jirachi is used because it beats the majority of common special attackers in BW. Latios is one of them, but don't say ridiculous statements like "Latios is the metagame". Examples being Tornadus, Reuniclus, Thundurus (luck is a factor on both sides for this one), CM Virizion and Rotom-W. It also provides useful paralysis on things like Politoed coming in to get Rain up and use specs hydro pump (Tyranitar benefits greatly from being able to outspeed Politoed), Gliscor switching in for the first time, negating Poison Heal (and therefore taking away its recovery), and basically everything else.

Latios, Reuniclus, Excadrill etc, none of these pokemon centralise OU. If anything, Ferrothorn is the pokemon everything is centralised towards. I would even be willing to say that Ferrothorn's popularity is why things like Starmie will probably not make OU.
 
I never really found Rank broken, because it is completely possible to overwhelm it. CB Metagross overpowers it, as do Scizor and Escavalier. If youre using Sun or Rain you have scary boosted attacks to hit it with, such as CB waterfalls and flare blitzes. For example my CB Gyarados could OHKO TR Rank and takes less than 2/3s from a +1 defensive rank. Stall does have to go out of its way to beat it, but there are options, Mew, Deoxys-D, Jirachi, and PP stalling with stuff like Sub/Protect Gliscor, stockpile/Yawn quagsire, etc. You could even use Spiritomb but the only set that does it guranteed is the mono attacker and it tends to die before reuniclus does. Boosting CMers that phaze, such as Suicune and Latias can get the job done too. This list only makes it counterable on paper, but in practice it never seems broken to me.
 
With the newly realised epicness of V-create, Victini is as close to a perfect counter to Reuniclus as you can get. As long as you don't switch into Shadow Ball, Choice Banded V-create will always OHKO Reuniclus, and if Reuniclus ever decides to set up Trick Room, then you can say gg to 4 members of that team, since Victini can survive Shadow Ball and become slower and slower until it massacres like half your team.

But then again, using something completely broken to counter something else doesn't say much about the checkee =D.
 
shrang said:
With the newly realised epicness of V-create, Victini is as close to a perfect counter to Reuniclus as you can get. As long as you don't switch into Shadow Ball, Choice Banded V-create will always OHKO Reuniclus, and if Reuniclus ever decides to set up Trick Room, then you can say gg to 4 members of that team, since Victini can survive Shadow Ball and become slower and slower until it massacres like half your team.

But then again, using something completely broken to counter something else doesn't say much about the checkee =D.
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Scizor.

But your enthusiasm is expected, V-create Victini is freaking awesome. I thought it would be on par with Darmanitan, but that extra bulk and lack of recoil after attacking is awesome.
 
PK Gaming said:
Scizor.

But your enthusiasm is expected, V-create Victini is freaking awesome. I thought it would be on par with Darmanitan, but that extra bulk and lack of recoil after attacking is awesome.
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Thirding what shrang said. If you've got sun up, and there are no Fire-immune Pokemon on the opponent's team....everything just dies. More reason to ban all forms of auto-weather imo.
 
KnightoftheWind said:
Thirding what shrang said. If you've got sun up, and there are no Fire-immune Pokemon on the opponent's team....everything just dies. More reason to ban all forms of auto-weather imo.
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Admittedly this probably isn't your whole opinion on the matter, but saying something which is essentially - "one pokemon is incredibly powerful under one weather, therefore all auto-weather should be banned" - really annoys me. If you think all auto-weather should be banned, okay, at least explain why instead of just using some immense logic leaps.

That said, I really don't think Victini being overpowered under Sun is any reason to ban Sun, we've claused SwSw out from Rain and voted on Excadrill three times, the weather itself shouldn't be the target if there are a small minority of mons it breaks. Also, since Sun was voted OU with a huge majority last round and the only thing added to it is Victini, I find it hard to believe that Sun is the broken factor here.
 
I've often thought that focus blast is the chink in reuniclus' otherwise flawless armor. Absol, Bisharp, Spiritomb and Weavile can all abuse their dark typing + pressure to stall out the fetus' eight focus blasts. An absol running salac berry and sub / SD / night slash / brick break can set up on CM reuniclus and sweep once its blasts have been used up.

Does anyone else think that we should have some kind of triple jeopardy rule for voting? Latios has been voted OU thrice now. I think that we've ascertained beyond any doubt that it's OU.
 
Well Latios got a majority last time so it could be on its way out. I agree though, there should be a point where you can't nomiate a suspect. I mean Excadrill and Reuniclus have been nominated and voted on 3 times and all 3 were overwhelmingly OU. I'd think that people would realize that they're not broken by now
 
The issue with that is that its entirely possible for checks to strong pokes to disappear or get neutered. Suppose Azumarill and Mach Punch get banned (It wont happen, but just pretend), would we still not want to ban Excadrill even if he was voted OU 3 times before?
The meta changes and thus so do the roles of the stronger pokes.
 
My opion is we don't ban anything

I'd be fine if Dexoy, latios,and reunculus to be banned, but I don't think it's needed.

In my opinion, because Victini doesn't have more than just 100 base atk and spd and no atk boosting move outside work up, it's not that broken. If V-generate was given to Blazikin, Infernape or Darmanatan or if victini got swords dance, I think that would be broken

Just what I think
 
But Reuniclus IS broken. It may be because I run a very bulky team with only average offensive pressure, but if Scizor goes down (and as I metioned, it's very easy to lose it to an unexpected HP Fire) it will definately kill something on my team
The same can be be said for basically any team once the counter goes down. Other than perhaps Victini and similar really really really strong attackers, it's counters need most of their health remaining or they lose, which puts instant pressure on you to keep them alive and therby give reuni an advantage. Also, Clus can just switch out of general "really strong lol" mons and go directly to a counter. After that, oh dear, gg. There is a huge amount of stuff it can set up on too. -2 Lati@s are everywhere and massive Fetusmagnets, not to mention weaker revenge killers that are primarily relying on SE coverage to nab ko's. Banded Scizor also loses to a dgree because if you switching into FB and then it recovers as you U-turn then you have to do like 60% to it or it can carry on it's merry way and the second FB will KO unless you're spdef.
 
FastFlygon said:
But Reuniclus IS broken. It may be because I run a very bulky team with only average offensive pressure, but if Scizor goes down (and as I metioned, it's very easy to lose it to an unexpected HP Fire) it will definately kill something on my team
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The same could be said for a huge variety of other threats and teams. If Gliscor goes down on a team with an Excadrill weakness, Excadrill will more than likely kill something. Same can be said for Conk if you use that to check it. If your Heatran goes down chances are you'll be swept by Venusaur. It applies to non-weather mons too; if your SpD Steel dies something will most likely die the next time Latios comes in. The same applies for if said counters have little health left.

I'm not saying Reun isn't broken necessarily, just that this isn't a good argument for its brokenness.
 
Ruiniclus also can't do everything it'd like to. Reuniclus always runs Psyshock/Psychic and Focus Blast. That means that it has to choose the last two slots between Calm Mind, Recover, and Trick Room. It's either losing its ability to stat up, its ability to stay alive, or its ability to out speed the majority of faster threats.

If it lacks Recover, it isn't even a major threat. It will die simply by pounding on it, especially if it is packing Life Orb and not Leftovers. If it lacks Trick Room, anything faster than it that is able to deal 50% or more has a reasonable shot of taking it out. If it lacks Calm Mind, its limited in the damage it can do.

I'd also like to note that Taunt and Trick typically ruin Ruiniclus.
 
Ulevo said:
Ruiniclus also can't do everything it'd like to. Reuniclus always runs Psyshock/Psychic and Focus Blast. That means that it has to choose the last two slots between Calm Mind, Recover, and Trick Room. It's either losing its ability to stat up, its ability to stay alive, or its ability to out speed the majority of faster threats.

If it lacks Recover, it isn't even a major threat. It will die simply by pounding on it, especially if it is packing Life Orb and not Leftovers. If it lacks Trick Room, anything faster than it that is able to deal 50% or more has a reasonable shot of taking it out. If it lacks Calm Mind, its limited in the damage it can do.

I'd also like to note that Taunt and Trick typically ruin Ruiniclus.
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My Reuniclus carries HP-Fire, Psyshock, CM and Recover, but mine isn't defensive so it takes 60%+ from most decently-strong moves :L
 
don't forget shadow ball, without that it can't touch the Lati twins and basically every other psychic type in the game. TR Reuniclus is definitely a threat but far from being broken imo.
 
note on reuniclus: once sabelye DW is released it'll be the perfect counter.

but on reuniclus, its not really broken, and be honest how many tr teams do you see. heavy hitters like Cb scizor and tyranitar OHKO it. If you run shadow ball, you miss out on recover. so reuniclus got impressive bulk. it is a pain in the ass, but shouldn't be banned.
 
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