Meloetta

Thorhammer

Thorhammer

Seems kind of like a mess made out of what could have been cool. Needing to set up to become Stem Forme doesn't seem worth it, even if the setup can hurt things. And the regular forme doesn't look all that notable for this tier.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
Rizen said:
So everyone's ignoring the songstresses ability and the majority seems determined on her physical form.

I didn't see this and if it was posted I apologize, but I just think wasting a turn with Relic Song for a 10 (boosted to 20% due to Serene Grace) letting your opponent do whatever they want is a really bloody bad idea.

Especially with such a diverse special movepool where leaving it in Voice form can easily work once you ignore Relic Song:

Meloetta-Aria form
Serene Grace
Timid
@Expert Belt/Wise Glasses
4HP/252 Sp. Atk/252 Speed
Shadow Ball (40% chance of lowering the target's Sp. Def)
Charge Beam(140% chance of raising Sp. Atk one stage/Guaranteed)
Hidden Power(Fighting)/Hidden Power(Ice)/Hidden Power(Fire)/Focus Blast/Grass Knot
Substitute

It's going to have to hide behind a substitute unless something else is going to be tanking hits for it, it doesn't have the bulk, but I still think it's a waste of time when the songstress' sp.atk is already that high and can do some severe damage. Besides looking at this thread most people are going to expect the switch and bring in something to deal with a physical hitter.

Shadow Ball has a 40% (a 2 in 5) chance of lowering your opponents Sp. Def, and it let's you take care of a few things.

Against a Max Sp. Def Gengar Shadow Ball does 55%-66% of it's health as damage if Wise Glasses are used. Expert Belt raises it to 61%-72% which is still a guaranteed 2HKO.

Against a Max Sp. Def Frosslass Shadow Ball w/ Wise Glasses does 55%-65% of it's health. With Expert Belt 59-70% of it's health which is still a guaranteed 2HKO.

The problem now comes with Jellicent.
Bulky Max Sp.Def Jellicent can take a few Shadow Balls even with Wise Glasses or Expert Belt. Against Jellicent Shadow Ball w/ Wise Glasses does 36-43%. Expert Belt only moves that to 39%-46% forcing Jellicent to be a 3HKO by it, two maybe with the lowering of Sp. Def barring Substitute.

Now onto the Psychics which is where this also becomes useful:

Max Sp. Def Espeon taking a Shadow Ball when the user is holding Wise Glasses puts it at doing 46%-55% damage as a 7% chance to 2HKO. Expert Belt boosts that damage to 50%-60% as a Guaranteed 2HKO.

Reuniclus is another Pokemon that hurts this set forcing a 3HKO if Meloetta can even stay around.
Shadow Ball w/ Wise Glasses does 39-46% damage. Expert belt boosts it to 42%-50% so barring a crit Reuniclus can sit there and Calm Mind and make her say bye bye.

Alakazam is yet another 2HKO. Wise Glasses allowing Meloetta to do 53%-63% damage to it, while Expert Belt boosts this to 57-68%.

And yet another 3HKO is forced by Celebi as Shadow Ball maxes out at 37-44% w/ Wise Glasses or 40%-48% with Expert Belt.

Onto Charge Beam.
Charge Beam isn't the greatest move for it's power but it does the important job, the important job of raising Meloetta's Sp. Atk stage by 1, each time used, and after a couple, it could be a nightmare if Meloetta can stay behind a substitute. That's the entire point of Charge Beam, you'd use it on a switch, when behind a sub, to boost Meloetta's Sp. Atk because that's the entire point, to build it, while Calm Minding will have Tyranitar/Terrakion/any Physical Sweeper trying to wreck you. The only things worth mentioning where Charge Beam could possibly be useful are Gyarados or Tornadus.

Charge Beam vs Gyarados does 47-56% damage when the user wields Wise Glasses, 52%-61% when holding an Expert Belt.

Vs Tornadus 30%-35% w/ Wise Glasses. Expert Belt minimally raises that to 33%-38% damage.

Beyond these two, maybe against Jellicent or Tentacruel as they try setting up to raise your Sp.Atk to a decent level although it barely does damage to them sitting around 25%-30% damage before a boost with the items.

There's a lot to say with the third moveslot. Focus Blast is powerful and will let you hit for a good amount of damage, but the accuracy is risky at 70% and if you miss you may as well say goodbye. Hidden Power Fighting can make this useful as it will allow you to hit the same Pokemon without missing at the cost of some damage, Normal/Rock/Steel/Ice/Dark is nice, hitting 5 types supereffectively. The problem is, as great as moves like Close Combat have become, from the OU list you're hitting:
Hydreigon
Scrafty
Mamoswine
Heatran
Ferrothorn
Cloyster

If you really wanted you could try and dent Chansey and Blissey although that's for Physical Sweepers.

Hidden Power(Ice) lets you hit the following from the OU list supereffectively:
Hydreigon
Haxorous
Dragonite
Salamence
Latias
Latios
Tornadus
Virizion
Breloom
Venusaur
Dugtrio
Donphan
Landorous
Gliscor

Hidden Power Fire lets you hit the following from the OU list:
Forretress
Scizor
Breloom
Venusaur
Ferrothorn
Skarmory
Metagross
Jirachi

Lastly you have Grass Knot, not the greatest but can help with coverage. Seeing as it falls heavier foes such as Terrakion (2HKO/ 56%-70%), Tyranitar (2HKO/ 50-59%), Gastrodon (2HKO/50%-59%).

So it really comes down to preference and what you don't want to be walled by. Based on numbers I'd go for Ice since Dragons can be a nightmare

Substitute is supposed to keep you alive, while something else heals/tanks for you as much as possible because before at least 2 Charge Beams I doubt this is going to work well.

In addition to that why not Choice Scarf/Choice Specs/etc? You're going to need versatility in order to meet against the team, if you're locked into the weakest move on this set (Charge Beam) it's not going to help, and if you're using Substitute on a set where you'd use a Choice Item there's something wrong with you. Other mons should fill that place, especially with Item Clause. For example Dragonite tends to be used physically but given enough speed and the right environment a Choice Specs one can be used well only due to it's large move pool.

Another thing to note that this was all calculated without SR/Spikes damage. I also don't know how accurate these numbers are but here's the calculator I used:
http://kalashnikov.pokecenter.ru/damage/

Anyone see anything wrong?
Click to expand...
Technically you can beat just about anything with the right coverage move, but even with it there's plenty that can switch in on a sub, take a hit, and force you out. Not to mention, you can only really beat a few of your counters. Weak.


to the above poster, why SubCm meloetta over SubCm jirachi? Jirachi has better physical bulk, better speed, and lefties healing in SS. They both have around the same amount of coverage moves. As for choiced sets... the best thing about meloetta is step forme, which it can't get to if choiced. Why would i use specs or scarf this when i could use specs or scarf anything else? (jirachi, celebi, mew, even LO alakazam does the job in the same way). Inevitably, it will be step forme or bust, with maybe the occasional utility gengar counter.
 
doughboy

doughboy

is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
The only place I can find Meoloetta's Psychic-forme finding a place is on stall teams. As tehy mentioned she is a nice counter to Gengar, which is a Poke somewhat difficult to deal with on stall teams. The amount of Perish Song users is in short supply, but Meoletta has it. It is pretty neat slot to fill on a stall team considering you can beat baton pass, CM Reuniclus, and end games pokes with it. A special tank with Perish Song and Rest will suffice.
 
Kenpach2

Kenpach2

i made this defensive meloetta set awhile ago. calm @leftover/chestoberry EV:252hp 232sp.def 22def healbell, psychic, u-turn, thunderwave/rest. not sure but more advice would be nice.
 

Saitsuofleaves

Thorhammer said:
Seems kind of like a mess made out of what could have been cool. Needing to set up to become Stem Forme doesn't seem worth it, even if the setup can hurt things. And the regular forme doesn't look all that notable for this tier.
Click to expand...
Well, if it goes to UU, it'd probably be good for Meloetta since Mienshao went down and Mew vacated to OU.
 

Dragontongue195040

No, but soon (July 8 I think it is? Correct me if I'm wrong)
I personally think that her P forme is better (I mean, banded Uturn+Close combat+return wrecks shit) but too bad she's restricted by relic song.
I have a feeling Meloetta A will be obliterated by scizor/tyranitar- just throwing that out there. She DOES get HP fire for scizor and some nice fighting physicals but I don't think she can cut it because of her low def. and atk. Any suggestions?

EDIT: lol ninja'd
 

Saitsuofleaves

Dragontongue195040 said:
No, but soon (July 8 I think it is? Correct me if I'm wrong)
I personally think that her P forme is better (I mean, banded Uturn+Close combat+return wrecks shit) but too bad she's restricted by relic song.
I have a feeling Meloetta A will be obliterated by scizor/tyranitar- just throwing that out there. She DOES get HP fire for scizor and some nice fighting physicals but I don't think she can cut it because of her low def. and atk. Any suggestions?

EDIT: lol ninja'd
Click to expand...
She can't use Banded P-Form even if she wanted to since she apparently switches form on switch out. Only way you could use a Banded P-Form (without being locked into Relic Song) is if someone for some strange reason decides to Trick a Choice Band on her.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
Well, trickband spiritomb. But i think his point was more, oh, i wish that was possible because it would be balling. And, to an extent, it would. Let's hope GF realises that.
 

Saitsuofleaves

It's also a Dragon Dance that can be blocked by Ghost-Types and Negated by Protect and actually makes you frailer...it's pretty easy to use that comparison the other way.
 
Superpowerdude

Superpowerdude

!
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Odd i thought it was released july 14 i am pretty excited for meleotta and i am curious in how it will do it is a pokemon known to exist for over a year but no one has seen it competitivly. Also whats witj all the relic song hate
 
Thorhammer

Thorhammer

The problem with Relic Song isn't the process; it's the results. Salamence uses Dragon Dance and you're dealing with a monster with over 600 Atk and over 450 Spe. Meloetta uses Relic Song and it's got at most 390 of one and 355 of the other. Getting a turn of setup is non-trivial, and you expect terrifying results for it - results Meloetta just doesn't have. Not on the level expected in OU.
 

bubbly

Well yeah. The recent DW CCAT focused on abusing Meloetta's form changes with Spikes support, since most opponents switching into one will lose to the other. If Meloetta is going to be viable in OU that looks like the way to go.
 
Shouting

Shouting

Thorhammer said:
The problem with Relic Song isn't the process; it's the results. Salamence uses Dragon Dance and you're dealing with a monster with over 600 Atk and over 450 Spe. Meloetta uses Relic Song and it's got at most 390 of one and 355 of the other. Getting a turn of setup is non-trivial, and you expect terrifying results for it - results Meloetta just doesn't have. Not on the level expected in OU.
Click to expand...
This is kind of one sided don't you think? Salamence can't change his typing on a whim and has much less diversity than Meloetta. Slamence can run pretty much three sets: Choice Scarf, Mixed, and Dragon Dance. Even then, Salamence usually uses all the same moves regardless of the set (Earthquake, Outrage, Fire Blast etc.)

Meloetta can abuse rain in a similar fashion to Jirachi, she can play defense - being special defensive with access to numerous supporting moves, can use a simple 4-attacks Life Orb set while in Aria form, Calm Mind, go mixed by using both Aria and Pirouette form, go full on offensive with Pirouette, Substitute sets while in Aria, Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, I could go on and on. The point is that Meloetta is diverse as pokemon such as Celebi and Jirachi in that you don't know quite what set they are running. (although in my opinion Meloetta is more diverse than those two) Just because you see Meloetta doesn't mean she has Relic Song.
 

Dragontongue195040

I don't even think Meloetta P is very viable now because she is bound by relic song. It has base 75 (112 power with STAB) power and has a 20% chance to put things to sleep but she can't use it more once. That leaves MP room for 3 extra moves. Because her movepool isn't the best, she generally has four moves to use- uturn, cc, return, and shadow claw. That makes her quite predictable. Should she try to run a boosting set, shadow claw and cc are her only options, as uturn would be unwise and return would give you bad coverage. Sure she has great stats but there are a ton of things in the worse for her. I'm not saying that MP will suck but she definitely will not see much usage until someone finds a creative set for her (or future gens give her more options.)
 
Shouting

Shouting

Dragontongue195040 said:
I don't even think Meloetta P is very viable now because she is bound by relic song. It has base 75 (112 power with STAB) power and has a 20% chance to put things to sleep but she can't use it more once. That leaves MP room for 3 extra moves. Because her movepool isn't the best, she generally has four moves to use- uturn, cc, return, and shadow claw. That makes her quite predictable. Should she try to run a boosting set, shadow claw and cc are her only options, as uturn would be unwise and return would give you bad coverage. Sure she has great stats but there are a ton of things in the worse for her. I'm not saying that MP will suck but she definitely will not see much usage until someone finds a creative set for her (or future gens give her more options.)
Click to expand...
Meloetta has an a movepool on par to that of Jirachi and Celebi, and Close Combat is really all you need when Skarmory, Gliscor, and most other physcial walls are deathly afraid of the Aria form. It even works both ways. Tyranitar is not so willing to come in on Aria if it can use Relic Song to transform into Pirouette.

Keep in mind that Pirouette actually has good physical defense (100HP 90 Def) so I don't see why it can't take a Crunch or Pursuit.
 
Onicon

Onicon

Her pool for physical moves isn't that bad. In most she pretty much only need both of her STAB moves to hit anything but ghosts for neutral damage. Besides those there are Acrobatics, Stone Edge and all three elemental punches. What bugs me is the extreme case of 4-move-syndrome, since one slot has to be given to Relict Song. It wouldn't be that bad if it wasn't a special move.
I still think type changing is the way to go, because she isn't reliant on team partner to cover her weaknesses. If only Meloetta had a way to recover besides Rest, it would have been indefinitely more awesome.

Shame on Troll Freaks for not giving her more dances, like Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, Quiver Dance ...
 

Bardische

superbadd said:
Hopefully if a third game comes out meloetta-p will be used w/o relic song.
Click to expand...
How would that work out, though? Relic Song was basically made to give Meloetta the quality of being able to change form through the use of a move. Seemingly saying it can now change form without using Relic Song is just weird.

Well, they did have Feebas evolve into Milotic through a different method, but only because Contests were abandoned altogether and the Beauty stat is just rubbish.

I dunno, this is pretty much Meloetta's signature novelty and suddenly getting a different method for it to change form in another game is weird.
 
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