XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)

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Eievui-Nymphia said:
How does Mega Lucario fare against lower usage pokemon

Blastoise (only Mega): Mega lucario can't OHKO Mega Blastoise, MBlastoise can OHKO with Aura Sphere. The special set can't even 2HKO. And Water Pulse clearly 2HKO and can cripple Lucario with confusion hax.

Mega Gardevoir: Loses with almost OHKO with Bullet Punch and clear OHKo with Flash Cannon but Lucario can't come on a Mega Gardevoir and neither can set up becuase Hyper Voice, which OHKOes.

Scolipede: It can outspeed mega Lucario with Speed Boost. Apart of that, needs Earthquake if Scolipede want to have a chance (and probably not ebing a dedicated BP user)

Vaporeon: Loses because Fighting STAB from the special set from either side 2HKO. Can try fighting the special set with Scald.

Terrakion: Can defeat Mega Lucario on turn 1 (or Scarfed) with Close Combat.

Jolteon: Outspeed on turn 1 and after. Thunderbolt has a chance of OHKO with Choice Specs. Special Lucario can't OHKO.

Mega Medicham. loses 1 vs1 with Drain Punch that overkills. No attack from Lucario can OHKO at +0.

Hydreigon: Scarf Hydreiugon 8the msot common) can outspeed M;ega lucario and OHKO with Fire Blast and Focus Blast.

Landorus. Only CC and Flash Cannon 2HKo landorus. Only Ice Punchs OHKO Landorus Landorus outspeed Lucario on turn 1 and over kills with Earth Power (or even Earthquake).

Slowbro. Can dela with physical lucario which can defeat easily. Scald 3HKOes while Lucario can't. And his high chance opf burn can cause a 2HKO.

Noivern: Outspeed every time. Specs Noivern OHKO Lucario with Flamethrower and Hurricane. The "frail" Noivern can't even OHKo back.

Chandelure: usually it's Scarfed and then outspeed every time and defeats it with 2 Shadow Ball and one Fire move. Lucario can't OHKo with any of his moves.

Mega Manectric: With Intimidate in, CC can't OHKO. Always outspeed Mega lucario. With Modest Nature, (outspeed Mega Lucario) Flamethrower is a guaranteed OHKO. And Thunderbolt is a clear 2HKO.

Mega Heracross: possible 2HKO only with Flash Cannon. CC overkills.

Jirachi: It wins with Choice Scarf Jirachi 1vs1 because Jirachi can'0t be 2HKoed, Jirachi will 2HKO Mega lucario. And Jirachi can have more than one set.

Chansey Obviously loses.

Kyurem-B: Loses against him with the Fighting move.

Deoxys-S: Deoxys-S has a chance of OHKoing Mega Lucario with Psycho Boost. Always outspeeds, it's guaranteed to 2HKO with Psycho Boost, etc.

Jellicent: loses aginst physical set. Wins against special set.

Metagross: Assuming leftovers, Lucario has to be lucky that Earthquake doesn't OHKO. If ti uses CC, it will OHKO.

Umbreon: Always loses. Free set up.

Politoed: Does poorly but has a chance of win to the special set if Aura Sphere doesn't 2HKO.

Celebi: Normally loses but Earth Power has a chance of OHKO. Don't use CC against him.

Gastrodon: Has a chance of OHKO with Earth Power. Guaranteed if Lucario decides to use Close Combat.

Arcanine Wins or ties with Flare Blitz.

Porygon2: Free set up.

Florges. Normally it loses, but it can set up that freely.

Darmanitan: Wins 1vs1 with Flare Blitz if it's the Scarf version. It's better with the special version because Aura Sphere can't even OHKO.

Kelode: OHKOed with Secret Sword and outspeed on turn 1. Special Lucario can't OHKO.

Deoxys-D: Free set up.

Mega Absol: clearly loses (300% from CC, no thanks)

Reuniclus: Given his usual EV spread, it does btter vs Physical version. Normally it loses vs Mega lucario. it clearly OHKoed with Focus Blast.

Magnezone: loses to the fighting STAB.

Haxorus: Risky but it can't set up because oHKO with Earthquake. Flash cannon doesn't even OHKO.

Mega Aggron: Earthquake OHKO Mega lucario. oses to the special set 80% of the time.

Diggersby: I'm sure that Earthquake will OHKO Mega lucario but can't take a Fighting STAB

Quagsire loses to Physical Lucario unless it's burned. Special Lucario loses against it. Earthquakes 2HKO. Swords Dance against him can'0t cost a Mega Lucario.

Crobat: genberally wins vs Physical lucario. 50/50 vs Special lucario (the key it's if Brave Bird 2HKoes).

Crawdaunt: Crabhammer and Super Power OHKoes Mega lucario but don't even try.

Zapdos: better surprisingly with modest in that case, because int hat case Thunderbolt OHKoes after CC (2HKo). Counter of the special set.

Weavile: Don't try with it. The best option if you don'0t have a ghost is tolose your Weavile by clicking Low Kick.

Manaphy: normally lsoes but can use Surf well. If Manaphy got the +3, Koes Mega lucario woith Surf/Scald (can't learn Hydro Pump).

Kingdra: It'0s OHkoed with CC. With this pokemon, there are two situations:
Not rain: Loses to the physical set compeltely. Wins vs the special set if it lacks Aura Sphere.
Rain: Normally: Wins 100% vs Special Mega Lucario and has a 50% of wiining with Surf (Hydro Pump is 80% OHKOed).

Whmsicott: Don't even try.

Ninetales: Wins on turn 1. Wins against Special lucario not having S.

Nidoking it wins with Earth Power.

Thundurus-T: Possible OHKO with Thunderbolt. Lucario can't even 2HKO with his special set.

Ambipom: Does pretty bad but has a chance of winning if he has Low Kick.

Mega Aerodactryl: Risk an OHKO with Earthquake. NMLucario has no problem taking it down.

Miloitic. Normally lose vs physical set, wins vs special set.

Rotom-H; wins with Overheat. Can't swithc in a Close Combat.

Mega Ampharos: . Wins vs Special set. OHKo with Fopcus Blast. high chances pof OHKo with Thunderbolt.

Malamar: Risk of a OHKO with Super Power. Specially Pohysical lucario, don't set up.

Snorlax: You forgot Aura Sphere, you lose. Be warned that Snorlax can cripple it. Obviosuly, CC OHKOes.

Starapotor: Mirror match. Depends of the luck and the set of Staraptor.

Hippowdon. Don't play with the high cance of OHKO with EQ, guaranteed with CC.

Machamp: Can lsoe vs physical lucario. But it will vs Special lucario with Dynamic Punch. You hope that MLucario can't

And I will end with Mew: His most usually it loses tot he physicalmwins versus the special special, but you never know what Mew has.


I got to the following conclusion:
Lucario is very frail, specially from the special side, which has a greater amount of moves that doesn't resist. Having a physical weakness to Fight and ground hurts. the difference between 70/88/70 and 105/100/100 are very different things. For example, Cleebi has 70% to Mega Lucario with Psychic, only 40% to not invested Mega Kangaskhan with psychic (and no super effective move)

The most strong set is the physiucal set with CC.

The special set has a sever case of 4MSs, you have to miss coverage (Dark pulse), miss priority (Vaccum Wave) or miss power (auyra Sphere). Flash cannon is very underwhelming when dealing with Electric, Water and Fire types. and Vaccum Wave don't patch that 90% of the time.
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Noone is saying that he doesn't have checks...
problem is, that he doesn't (almost) have COUNTERS!
 
Eievui-Nymphia said:
How does Mega Lucario fare against lower usage pokemon

Blastoise (only Mega): Mega lucario can't OHKO Mega Blastoise, MBlastoise can OHKO with Aura Sphere. The special set can't even 2HKO. And Water Pulse clearly 2HKO and can cripple Lucario with confusion hax.

Mega Gardevoir: Loses with almost OHKO with Bullet Punch and clear OHKo with Flash Cannon but Lucario can't come on a Mega Gardevoir and neither can set up becuase Hyper Voice, which OHKOes.

Scolipede: It can outspeed mega Lucario with Speed Boost. Apart of that, needs Earthquake if Scolipede want to have a chance (and probably not ebing a dedicated BP user)

Vaporeon: Loses because Fighting STAB from the special set from either side 2HKO. Can try fighting the special set with Scald.

Terrakion: Can defeat Mega Lucario on turn 1 (or Scarfed) with Close Combat.

Jolteon: Outspeed on turn 1 and after. Thunderbolt has a chance of OHKO with Choice Specs. Special Lucario can't OHKO.

Mega Medicham. loses 1 vs1 with Drain Punch that overkills. No attack from Lucario can OHKO at +0.

Hydreigon: Scarf Hydreiugon 8the msot common) can outspeed M;ega lucario and OHKO with Fire Blast and Focus Blast.

Landorus. Only CC and Flash Cannon 2HKo landorus. Only Ice Punchs OHKO Landorus Landorus outspeed Lucario on turn 1 and over kills with Earth Power (or even Earthquake).

Slowbro. Can dela with physical lucario which can defeat easily. Scald 3HKOes while Lucario can't. And his high chance opf burn can cause a 2HKO.

Noivern: Outspeed every time. Specs Noivern OHKO Lucario with Flamethrower and Hurricane. The "frail" Noivern can't even OHKo back.

Chandelure: usually it's Scarfed and then outspeed every time and defeats it with 2 Shadow Ball and one Fire move. Lucario can't OHKo with any of his moves.

Mega Manectric: With Intimidate in, CC can't OHKO. Always outspeed Mega lucario. With Modest Nature, (outspeed Mega Lucario) Flamethrower is a guaranteed OHKO. And Thunderbolt is a clear 2HKO.

Mega Heracross: possible 2HKO only with Flash Cannon. CC overkills.

Jirachi: It wins with Choice Scarf Jirachi 1vs1 because Jirachi can'0t be 2HKoed, Jirachi will 2HKO Mega lucario. And Jirachi can have more than one set.

Chansey Obviously loses.

Kyurem-B: Loses against him with the Fighting move.

Deoxys-S: Deoxys-S has a chance of OHKoing Mega Lucario with Psycho Boost. Always outspeeds, it's guaranteed to 2HKO with Psycho Boost, etc.

Jellicent: loses aginst physical set. Wins against special set.

Metagross: Assuming leftovers, Lucario has to be lucky that Earthquake doesn't OHKO. If ti uses CC, it will OHKO.

Umbreon: Always loses. Free set up.

Politoed: Does poorly but has a chance of win to the special set if Aura Sphere doesn't 2HKO.

Celebi: Normally loses but Earth Power has a chance of OHKO. Don't use CC against him.

Gastrodon: Has a chance of OHKO with Earth Power. Guaranteed if Lucario decides to use Close Combat.

Arcanine Wins or ties with Flare Blitz.

Porygon2: Free set up.

Florges. Normally it loses, but it can set up that freely.

Darmanitan: Wins 1vs1 with Flare Blitz if it's the Scarf version. It's better with the special version because Aura Sphere can't even OHKO.

Kelode: OHKOed with Secret Sword and outspeed on turn 1. Special Lucario can't OHKO.

Deoxys-D: Free set up.

Mega Absol: clearly loses (300% from CC, no thanks)

Reuniclus: Given his usual EV spread, it does btter vs Physical version. Normally it loses vs Mega lucario. it clearly OHKoed with Focus Blast.

Magnezone: loses to the fighting STAB.

Haxorus: Risky but it can't set up because oHKO with Earthquake. Flash cannon doesn't even OHKO.

Mega Aggron: Earthquake OHKO Mega lucario. oses to the special set 80% of the time.

Diggersby: I'm sure that Earthquake will OHKO Mega lucario but can't take a Fighting STAB

Quagsire loses to Physical Lucario unless it's burned. Special Lucario loses against it. Earthquakes 2HKO. Swords Dance against him can'0t cost a Mega Lucario.

Crobat: genberally wins vs Physical lucario. 50/50 vs Special lucario (the key it's if Brave Bird 2HKoes).

Crawdaunt: Crabhammer and Super Power OHKoes Mega lucario but don't even try.

Zapdos: better surprisingly with modest in that case, because int hat case Thunderbolt OHKoes after CC (2HKo). Counter of the special set.

Weavile: Don't try with it. The best option if you don'0t have a ghost is tolose your Weavile by clicking Low Kick.

Manaphy: normally lsoes but can use Surf well. If Manaphy got the +3, Koes Mega lucario woith Surf/Scald (can't learn Hydro Pump).

Kingdra: It'0s OHkoed with CC. With this pokemon, there are two situations:
Not rain: Loses to the physical set compeltely. Wins vs the special set if it lacks Aura Sphere.
Rain: Normally: Wins 100% vs Special Mega Lucario and has a 50% of wiining with Surf (Hydro Pump is 80% OHKOed).

Whmsicott: Don't even try.

Ninetales: Wins on turn 1. Wins against Special lucario not having S.

Nidoking it wins with Earth Power.

Thundurus-T: Possible OHKO with Thunderbolt. Lucario can't even 2HKO with his special set.

Ambipom: Does pretty bad but has a chance of winning if he has Low Kick.

Mega Aerodactryl: Risk an OHKO with Earthquake. NMLucario has no problem taking it down.

Miloitic. Normally lose vs physical set, wins vs special set.

Rotom-H; wins with Overheat. Can't swithc in a Close Combat.

Mega Ampharos: . Wins vs Special set. OHKo with Fopcus Blast. high chances pof OHKo with Thunderbolt.

Malamar: Risk of a OHKO with Super Power. Specially Pohysical lucario, don't set up.

Snorlax: You forgot Aura Sphere, you lose. Be warned that Snorlax can cripple it. Obviosuly, CC OHKOes.

Starapotor: Mirror match. Depends of the luck and the set of Staraptor.

Hippowdon. Don't play with the high cance of OHKO with EQ, guaranteed with CC.

Machamp: Can lsoe vs physical lucario. But it will vs Special lucario with Dynamic Punch. You hope that MLucario can't

And I will end with Mew: His most usually it loses tot he physicalmwins versus the special special, but you never know what Mew has.


I got to the following conclusion:
Lucario is very frail, specially from the special side, which has a greater amount of moves that doesn't resist. Having a physical weakness to Fight and ground hurts. the difference between 70/88/70 and 105/100/100 are very different things. For example, Cleebi has 70% to Mega Lucario with Psychic, only 40% to not invested Mega Kangaskhan with psychic (and no super effective move)

The most strong set is the physiucal set with CC.

The special set has a sever case of 4MSs, you have to miss coverage (Dark pulse), miss priority (Vaccum Wave) or miss power (auyra Sphere). Flash cannon is very underwhelming when dealing with Electric, Water and Fire types. and Vaccum Wave don't patch that 90% of the time.
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Those calcs are interesting, but I'd like to note that several of those are 2HKO's and as such can be beaten if at +2, only do well against one set, or need Luke to not be MEvod. If Luke gets to +2 or predicts correctly, then they can't switch in. As such many of those cannot be called very good checks/counters as they require Luke to be the specific set they beat and have a few other factors in play. On your last sentence, of course Flash Cannon is underwhelming if you use it against a type that resists it! Why would you deliberately use an attack that your opponent resists? That doesn't make sense. Though Flash cannon is sometimes replaced with Dark Pulse or Shadow Ball for the noted resistances, so NP/Aura Sphere/Vacuum Wave/Shadow Ball is a set you see often.

What do you mean by Staraptor being a "mirror match"? Luke outspeeds and KO's if it's already MEvod, Staraptor wins if not.

Aside from those nitpicks though, these calcs provide some good food for thought.

EDIT:
Eievui-Nymphia said:
The calculations are made thinking that your comes is in full health when Mega Lucario comes. This proves that switching against him is a "terrible" idea 90% of the time. the calculation show that if you have a Mega Lucario the first thing that you have to do is to use a super effective move or a strong neutral move against him, preferably in turn 1 and from the special side.
This calculations are to show that the true move that Lucario threathens the mertagame is the physiucal set ansd in particular, Close Combat. Crunch takes care of anything that CC can0t handle with his perfect coverage. Bulet Punch is for fairies.
That priority is overrated in generak, and Mega Lucario. Mega Lucario has 112 Base Speed and almost always run max+ speed outsppeding almost all the metagame. That means specially with this set of Mega lucario. Notice that many priority users are slow in nature, where proprioty and not poriority makes a huge difference; this is not the caseof Lucario, spoecially with it having 4MSS.
Nasty Plot/Vaccum Wave/Dark Pulse/Flash Cannon
This set can be defeated by good Fire, Water and Electric types easily, even at +2. Soory, Aura Sphere > Vaccum Wave, you can't miss 40 BP vs ire, Water, Elwctric and Steel which togethers takes many position from the Top 100. also, the Aura Sphere BP nerf (90' < 80 BP) it's noted much on Mega Lucario way more than the nerf of other special moves like Thunderbolt, Surf and Flamethrower.
And I notice tht a lot of pokemon has a way to deal with Mega lucario at +0. Mega lucario is a pokemon that it'snprefrred to be OHKOed if you know that X move can't OHKO it. Because a t +0, is not as bad as +2.
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Which brings us back to a point I mentioned earlier: Luke is usually going to come in on either something that can't hurt it, or things that it can KO. If it comes in on something it will KO, it's just as likely to use the CC/Extremespeed/whatever that will kill your mon as try to set up, so by staying in you're basically giving your opponent a free kill. Every time it comes in. Which is complete idiocy.
 
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Can I point out about the scoliopede calcs; that quite a few people (including myself) are actually using him as a sweeper not as a BP so earthquake is an option.
 
Salt the Flesh said:
Your experience doesn't matter to anyone else. Just because you can predict Lucario to boost doesn't mean it isn't broken. If your opponents are boosting on something that can potentially carry a dangerous move, then you're just fighting terrible people. People need to stop using "their experiences" as arguments. I don't understand how anyone can deny Mega Lucario's brokenness unless it's a desperate attempt to keep something grossly overpowered and easy to use to get automatic wins. It's Mega Kanga all over again....
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The same arguement can be applied to Genesect. I don't understand how anyone can deny it's brokenness, unless they use it themselves and like the fact they generally win all the time.
 
Jps101 said:
The same arguement can be applied to Genesect. I don't understand how anyone can deny it's brokenness, unless they use it themselves and like the fact they generally win all the time.
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Actually, I'd say the argument for banning Genesect is a bit more based on practice than in theory. MLuke is a broken sweeper according to the official definition, but there's really nothing which directly states that Gene is banned, since nothing has ever been broken in quite the same way it is. But pretty much everybody who played against or with Genesect understand that it may be too good for the metagame and why.
 
Albacore said:
Actually, I'd say the argument for banning Genesect is a bit more based on practice than in theory. MLuke is a broken sweeper according to the official definition, but there's really nothing which directly states that Gene is banned, since nothing has ever been broken in quite the same way it is. But pretty much everybody who played against or with Genesect understand that it may be too good for the metagame and why.
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Then why is it so that half of the people on here think Genesect should remain OU?
 
Jps101 said:
Then why is it so that half of the people on here think Genesect should remain OU?
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I'd say it's more of an 80/20 split in favor of the Genesect ban. MLucario is pretty much unanimous while the opinion on Deo-S is closer 50/50, but more leaning towards keeping it in OU.
 
I'm going to do calculations with Genesect. I will redeuce the threats respecting Mega Lucario. I am going to name threats in the tier S, A+, A, A-, B+, some B types and "all relevant Fairy types". and I will only talk about the Scarf set with the moves Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, U-turn, Bug Buzz and Iron Head.
 
Chiki said:
No one uses mixed Lucario.
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Nobody really used perishtrap mega gengar. Didn't make it any less broken.

Albacore said:
I'd say it's more of an 80/20 split in favor of the Genesect ban. MLucario is pretty much unanimous while the opinion on Deo-S is closer 50/50, but more leaning towards keeping it in OU.
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Deo-s is like a 20/80 in favor of OU imo. I haven't seen too many great arguments for it staying. It's really really good in OU but it has plenty of flaws that prevent it from being Ubers this gen.
 
Albacore said:
I'd say it's more of an 80/20 split in favor of the Genesect ban. MLucario is pretty much unanimous while the opinion on Deo-S is closer 50/50, but more leaning towards keeping it in OU.
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That's strange then because literally every post I see is Genesect should remain in OU, whilst Lucario should be uber. I think it should be the complete opposite as Lucario can be OP, but it can be stopped.
 
I would say, it is definately visible how Lucario is overpowered.

In terms of Genesect. STAB U-turn and good Att stat doesn't make him UBER. I mean U-turn is good if you know how powerful it can be, however the problem, main problem, lies in DOWNLOAD. You HAVE TO predict him well, I don't know if there is some wall that can take every his moves after stat boosts, but I don't think there is. He can easily U-turn, hurt you very very very good and he gets momentum (probably U-turns to something that forces you to switch).


If U-turn wasn't so strong and he wasn't so fast it wouldn't be problem at all. I mean, look at Scizor, he does have STAB U-turn, but he isn't any problem at all. He is all physical and slow.
And what is worst? Probably when he runs Shift Gear and you predict badly U-turn or badlier Sp.Atk (then you switch into BAD wall) and he will sweep your time with E-Speed and Iron Head, Blaze Kick and whatever, because he got +2 Atk +2 Spe.

Deoxys-S is a question, but I think Deoxys should be uber as well.... Why? Its attack can pretty much kill every Rapid Spinner (I don't have to mention it is faster than you) and it can learn TAUNT. Honestly, it will set up SR before you switch into something that can OHKO it. For example I don't play anything that can OHKO it - maybe bad teambuilding I agree, but my team works on everything but Deoxys. Dark, Ghost and Bug Pokémon might deal with it, if it doesn't carry F sash. If it does it can even destroy you. Scizor is too slow and hit by Fire Punch, Tyranitar is hit by Superpower and there isn't so much Ghosts - only Aegislash, Gengar and Jellicent.
Can Jellicent OHKO it ? Probably not, Gengar? He is OHKOed by its Psycho Boost. So... there is only Aegislash, that can't OHKO it, but at least get some boosts.
It CAN'T learn all those attack, the problem is you never know and it can really change the game. I admit it isn't too gamechanging like it is in Lucario's case, but still pretty enough! Against her you either sacrifice Pokémon, or get many layers of entry hazards under your feets. You may have Rapid Spinner, but it takes time and he can have anything that might ruin your Rapid Spinner.

Conclusion
Lucarionite - UBER with no questions
Genesect - Download is too powerful, because then he becomes viable as Physical and even Special Attacker and you can never know what he runs and it might ruin your team (similar case to Lucario). U-turn gives him pretty good momentum and hits hard and fast and you have to be prepared for it, but if you predict U-turn and he uses Shift Gear... you might lose anyway. UBER
Deoxys-S - This is hard, I know you don't want it to be UBER anyway, because you think it ISN'T too strong, anyway I think it shall be UBER.
 
Going back and forth between the hospital and laddering didn't go so well. I screwed up so many times, THEN I make the best stall team possible... today when it's too late.

Anyway as I said earlier:

- MLucario gtfo
- Genesect should stay
- Deoxys-S idc but should probably stay

Oh well, the discussion was kind of fun. Good luck Genesect, you'll need it.
 
genesect result vs main threats.
Using Scarf genesect with 4 Special Attacks and Band Genesect with U-turn, X-Scissor, Iron head, Extremespeed. Usually, Pokemon with equal attacking stats has EV in SpD. If those 4 Ev it's on HP or Def... his SpA is boost and all results is multiplied by x1.5

Mega Lucario Mega Lucario can OHKO with CC or 2HKO with Aura Sphere.
Aegislash Can be considered a counter (or a reliable Check) by the mixed version.
Mega Venusaur The difference betwen Mega lucario and Aegislash is that unlike it, it can be walled hard. Mega Venusaur laughs at genesect... if it doesn't have HP Fire.
Mega Pinsir The good thing is that it's OHKOed by Return, the bad one is the OHKo with Flamethrower, Thunderbolt and Ice Beam at +1.
Mega Charizard X Overkills with Flare Blitz. Only Ice Beam can 2HKO.
Mega Charizard Y A serious check Overkills with Fire Blast.
Deoxys-S OHKOed by U-turn, Bug Buzz and X-Scissor.
Heatran COUNTER. Lava plume OHKOes.
Garchomp Earthquake doesn't OHKO. Ice beam does.
Mega Garchomp Same than normal garchomp except a crit EQ OHKOes.
Manaphy Hate the Bug Attack or Thunderbolt which outspped. Surf can 2HKo at +0.
Talonflame Flare Blitz overkills Brave Bird (which it's priority; it's known) can OHKo. But not a counter (thunderbolt)
Thundurus 2HKoed by ice Beam or Extremespeed. Not the same with Thunderbolt (only 2HKo)
Rotom-W U-turn 2HKo. Hydro Pump can 2HKO.
Landorus Ice Beam OHKoes. Flamethrower and Iroin head can 2HKO. Earth power doesn't Earthquake won't.
Kyurem-Black Loses to the Band set (Iron Head, u.turn, X-Scissor). Fusion Bolt 2HKO.
Latias If you are consider non-HP fire latias, it will lose. loise specially to the Band set.
Latios More a check (because DM, Surf and Tbolt are 2HKo) Has ways to OHKO it as gene want.
Greninja Hydro Pump OHKoes. Some of genesect will. Band U-turn OPHKoes a Water Greninja.
Excadrill it defeats it with Flamethrower. Walls the physiucal set.
Deoxys-D Genesect demolished it.
Gengar The Steel nerf gave Shadow Ball a possible 2HKO. It can win vs the physical set... wait, Iron head.
Keldeo One of the better checks. Hydro Pump/Surf 2HKO. Thunderbolt doesn't.. if it's 0 HP/4 SpD. If it not, maybe OHKOes.
Azumarill Thunderbolt doesn't OHKO If it not, maybe OHKOes. And Iron head ios too much for him.
Mega Mawile Genesect checks Mega mawile with Flamethrower.
Landorus-T OHKoed by Ice Beam. Not OHKo by Earthquake.
Tyranitar Sandstorm boost to SpD it's not taken note to Download. U-turn and Iron Head from band Gene can't OHKo. 2HKo with U-turn is a hoorible idea (momentum)
Mega tyranitar A bit better than tyranitar. Has a chance of OHKO with Stone Edge. But is still 2HKo with Bug Buzz
Scizor Has Flamehtrower? If positive, bye Scizor. band Super Power can 2Hko.. by crippling your Scizor.
Mega Scizor Same with Scizor, except a little better.
Dragonite Depends of Fire Punch/Fire Blast. if ti has, ti wins. it does not, normally loses.
Terrakion Can't risk an iron head. CC can OHKo if LO/CB.
Bisharp A acheck with Bug Buzzand Flamethrower. Suycker Punch hurts.
Mamoswine Earthquake and Ice Shard can OHKO. Can. But I'm sure that Banded Iron head OHKO.
Gyarados Thunderbolt.
Mega Gyarados U.turn opr X-Scissor, sorry. Does very decently vs Thunderbolt.
Conkeldurr one of the few that can deal with gene with Drain Punch
Mandibuzz Wins vs Choice Band. Loses vs the special set with Ice Beam/thunderbolt.
Clefable Tricky. if it has Iron head, genesect wins. if it does not, depends.
Skarmory Thunderbolt/Flamethrower/Ice Beam love Skarmory.
Politoed Problem with Thunderbolt and Banded U-turn/X-Scissor. Scald not guarantteed to 2HKO.
Ferrothorn Flamethrower or U.turn. Can cripple it if it's the latter.
Chansey Can u.turn from him freely. loses to the physical set.
Togekiss It does surprising well vs standard Gene... if ti doesn't have iron head on it. Use a Fire move if you have.
Zapdos Heat Wave OHKO. But Ice Beam 2HKo. Good vs the Physical set.
Gliscor Good against physical. Bad against the usual Scarf set.
Mega Medicham OHKO by Physical Gene.
Volcarona His Bad Physical Defense makes vulnerable to Extremespeed which is everything but good. Does well against the usual set.
Blissey See CHansey becuase there are not much difference.
Blastoise Can win if ti doesn't Thunderbolt.
Scolipede 2HKoed by iuron head from the physical set. No talk about the Special set. I didn't use Earthquake but I'm sure won't OHKO.
Sylveon The threat of Iron head is too much.
Alakazam With his paper, it can anything, And now it doesn't usually outspped. And it's not OHKOed by anything but HP Fire.
Starmie Weak to Bug. NO.
Entei very well to avoid a OHKO with Thunderbolt. Good check.
Rotom-H Counter to any set of Genesect.
Darmanitan Extremespped can OHKO, not good. Of course.
infernape Extremespped or Thunderbolt, not good.
Moltres The threat of SR is too much by taking 50% versus it. Does "well" but it's not a counter because Rocks.

For me, Genesect is more broken than Mega Lucario because.
Scarf genesect can outspeed 99% of the metagame.
It doesn't need to set up to be effective.
U.turn gives too much momentum, specially with his two most popular sets. One of them is too powerful, ther other is almost guaranteed a return and put another member to take the hit.
Tweaking the Ev of many pokemon to be sure that Genesect doesn't get the SpA boost.

Sorry, but Genesect is too much for the metagame, even more than mega Lucario. not for the offensive part, but for the support part.

it has true counters: but only two, and one of them is rare. Heatran lone can't stop momentum, and one pokemon doesn't make another pokemon non-broken.

If a Pokemon has qualities that suit well in the Uber tier while being fine in OU, the pokemon can be used just fine. If a pokemon has qualities that suit well the Uber tier, it can be used very well there (Gen IV Blissey, Gen V Ferrothorn) while being fine in OU.
 
So, there's been a lot of conversations about pokes who can counter, revenge kill, and check Lucario, and in that process, a lot of people have claimed it's easy for Mega Luke to force people out and set up. I was bored so I looked at every OU pokemon and its performance against Lucario in a neutral setting
Blue means Luke can either win or force the switch out most of the time, and usually get a boost
Green means Luke wins most of the time, but can't usually get the boost
Black means it "depends"
Red means Luke shouldn't even try to fight this one

Rotom-Can WoW physical set, or 2HKO special set. If it uses the wrong move though, it'll either get set up on and 2HKO'd by CC or get set up on and 3HKO'd by Aura Sphere
Aegislash-This one mostly depends on prediction. Whoever wins the mind games wins the fight
Talonflame-OHKO's with flare blitz and almost OHKO's with BB. Luke's either switching out or dead
Genesect-OHKO's with flamethrower and blaze kick. Also outspeeds 1st turn and every turn with a scarf
Greninja-Has a 68% (really 54% factoring the miss) chance to OHKO with Hydro Pump, but is always 2HKO'd by vacuum wave. Greninja will either win or cripple most of the time though, and Luke can never set up
Charizard-is outsped and OHKO'd on the 1st turn. Luke can't OHKO without boosts even if it does outspeed anyway
Lucario-Do I need to say it?
Heatran-OHKO each other, but Luke is faster
Gliscor-Physical set's toast unless it has ice punch, but the special set can 2HKO with flash cannon, but will be left with about 10%. I'd just switch out, but if you're ok with a +2 Mega Luke at 10%, then feel free to stay in
Garchomp-Always run from the EQ
Azumarill-without thunderpunch, either OHKO'd by superpower, or 2HKO'd by STABs. Special set can 2HKO Flash Cannon, but it won't work on either AV, lefties, or Sitrus sets
Scizor-Finally a safe one. Scizor's best option is to U-Turn out, dealing very little damage. You'll get very safe set up
Ferrothorn-Easy set up and OHKO. You'll probably get a leech seed and maybe some recoil damage though. Careful about Twave too
Tyranitar-Blue, unless it has Fire Blast or Earthquake, I'd just KO to be safe
Conkeldurr-Get out, it'll just kill you
Excadrill-You both OHKO, but Luke's faster
Dragonite-2HKO'd by coverage moves
Venusaur-Kinda messy theoretically. You can be 2HKO'd by HP Fire, or 3-4HKO'd by Giga Drain, or seeded, or put to sleep. If it has HP fire or sleep powder, you want to run. If it doesn't, you can set up 2 boosts and OHKO with either CC or Flash Cannon
Mandibuzz-special sets can set up and KO, taking ~66% damage in the process, but physical sets will get stalled out or KO'd by foul play
Gengar-You OHKO each other, but Gengar's faster at first
Espeon-If you have a dark move, you should have no trouble. It can set up screens, but it has to guess which one to do since it'll only have 1 guaranteed turn
Mamoswine-You OHKO each other, and Luke's faster, but watch out for sash
Goodra-Physical sets can OHKO (93% chance) with CC, but you'll be left with -1 Def, SpD, and possibly Spe. Goodra always OHKO's with fire blast anyway
Alakazam-OHKO each other, but Alakazam's faster
Landorus-T-Run from the EQ
Togekiss-If you have a steel STAB (other than bullet punch), you're good. If not, you'll probably get Twaved
Skarmory-Luke can boost, then OHKO (only 88% chance on CC), but it risks the whirlwind or taking 50% from BB
Breloom-OHKO each other, but Mach Punch goes first
Infernape-Run, you'll be outsped and OHKO'd
Volcarona-OHKO'd by fire STABs
I'll update later with more

Now, neutral situations are so laughably rare that this doesn't mean much. Lucario's being suspect tested because when your opponent plays it right, it is unbelievably difficult to defeat, but it is not a one sided argument.
 
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Kairyu_Gen1 said:
So, there's been a lot of conversations about pokes who can counter, revenge kill, and check Lucario, and in that process, a lot of people have claimed it's easy for Mega Luke to force people out and set up. I was bored so I looked at every OU pokemon and its performance against Lucario in a neutral setting
Blue means Luke can either win or force the switch out most of the time, and usually get a boost
Green means Luke wins most of the time, but can't usually get the boost
Black means it "depends"
Red means Luke shouldn't even try to fight this one

Rotom-Can WoW physical set, or 2HKO special set. If it uses the wrong move though, it'll either get set up on and 2HKO'd by CC or get set up on and 3HKO'd by Aura Sphere
Aegislash-This one mostly depends on prediction. Whoever wins the mind games wins the fight
Talonflame-OHKO's with flare blitz and almost OHKO's with BB. Luke's either switching out or dead
Genesect-OHKO's with flamethrower and blaze kick. Also outspeeds 1st turn and every turn with a scarf
Greninja-Has a 68% (really 54% factoring the miss) chance to OHKO with Hydro Pump, but is always 2HKO'd by vacuum wave. Greninja will either win or cripple most of the time though, and Luke can never set up
Charizard-is outsped and OHKO'd on the 1st turn. Luke can't OHKO without boosts even if it does outspeed anyway
Lucario-Do I need to say it?
Heatran-Surprisingly, Heatran can survive any unboosted fighting STAB and OHKO with fire STABs
Gliscor-Physical set's toast unless it has ice punch, but the special set can 2HKO with flash cannon, but will be left with about 10%. I'd just switch out, but if you're ok with a +2 Mega Luke at 10%, then feel free to stay in
Garchomp-Always run from the EQ
Azumarill-without thunderpunch, either OHKO'd by superpower, or 2HKO'd by STABs. Special set can 2HKO Flash Cannon, but it won't work on either AV, lefties, or Sitrus sets
Scizor-Finally a safe one. Scizor's best option is to U-Turn out, dealing very little damage. You'll get very safe set up
Ferrothorn-Easy set up and OHKO. You'll probably get a leech seed and maybe some recoil damage though. Careful about Twave too
Tyranitar-Blue, unless it has Fire Blast or Earthquake, I'd just KO to be safe
Conkeldurr-Get out, it'll just kill you
Excadrill-You both OHKO, but Luke's faster
Dragonite-2HKO'd by coverage moves
Venusaur-Kinda messy theoretically. You can be 2HKO'd by HP Fire, or 3-4HKO'd by Giga Drain, or seeded, or put to sleep. If it has HP fire or sleep powder, you want to run. If it doesn't, you can set up 2 boosts and OHKO with either CC or Flash Cannon
Mandibuzz-special sets can set up and KO, taking ~66% damage in the process, but physical sets will get stalled out or KO'd by foul play
Gengar-You OHKO each other, but Gengar's faster at first
Espeon-If you have a dark move, you should have no trouble. It can set up screens, but it has to guess which one to do since it'll only have 1 guaranteed turn
Mamoswine-You OHKO each other, and Luke's faster, but watch out for sash
Goodra-Physical sets can OHKO (93% chance) with CC, but you'll be left with -1 Def, SpD, and possibly Spe. Goodra always OHKO's with fire blast anyway
Alakazam-OHKO each other, but Alakazam's faster
Landorus-T-Run from the EQ
Togekiss-If you have a steel STAB (other than bullet punch), you're good. If not, you'll probably get Twaved
Skarmory-Luke can boost, then OHKO (only 88% chance on CC), but it risks the whirlwind or taking 50% from BB
Breloom-OHKO each other, but Mach Punch goes first
Infernape-Run, you'll be outsped and OHKO'd
Volcarona-OHKO'd by fire STABs
I'll update later with more

Now, neutral situations are so laughably rare that this doesn't mean much. Lucario's being suspect tested because when your opponent plays it right, it is unbelievably difficult to defeat, but it is not a one sided argument.
Click to expand...


main problem isn't that there aren't so much Blue Pokémon, but main problem is that Lucario can switch in against blue after kill and then you lost.
That means if you dont want to be swept you CAN'T PLAY BLUE-MARKED POKÉMON.
 
Aelsorm said:
main problem isn't that there aren't so much Blue Pokémon, but main problem is that Lucario can switch in against blue after kill and then you lost.
That means if you dont want to be swept you CAN'T PLAY BLUE-MARKED POKÉMON.
Click to expand...
Good point, and notice who they are. Scizor's considered one of the best pokemon in the game thanks to its capability last gen, Ferrothorn's one of the best support pokes, Espeon is one of my personal favorites, and Skarmory is arguably the best OU physical tank. Not being able to use them because of 1 pokemon is pretty lame.
 
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X5Dragon said:
Yeah I didn't post that to detract from your main point but I thought it was worth noting.
Click to expand...
No, I wasn't trying to argue, I was legitimately asking. I'd be stupid to assume my experience is all there is to know, so if Scizors really do run superpower that much, then I'd be wrong to not change the list.
 
Kairyu_Gen1 said:
No, I wasn't trying to argue, I was legitimately asking. I'd be stupid to assume my experience is all there is to know, so if Scizors really do run superpower that much, then I'd be wrong to not change the list.
Click to expand...
It was definitely true last gen, but now it doesn't really need to since Pursuit hits most Steel-types. Of course, running Superpower is a good idea if you're afraid of Lucario, and it's still a staple of the Banded set, which is the most common one. But if Scizor used SD or Roost, you can probably wager that it doesn't carry Superpower.
 
Aelsorm said:
Noone is saying that he doesn't have checks...
problem is, that he doesn't (almost) have COUNTERS!
Click to expand...

I would argue having several
(Assume this is greater than 10) checks is much better (for the game, not Luke) than having one or two counters and no other real checks.
 
Current opinions on suspects are:

Mega Lucario: Ban For the many reasons stated already in this thread. blablabla super fast super strong gtfo.

Genesect: Probably abstain. The non-choiced sets are terrifying, but I think I faced those in less than five battles (out of exactly a hundred on the normal ladder). Scarf set is easy to play around. Sure, it's strong and faast, but it's getting nowhere by locking itself into a single move. A amazing revenge killer for sure, but not broken. The other sets seem pretty damn scary in theory, but I had no chance to actually FACE them.

Deoxys-S: Why is this even being suspected? I'd sooner suspect test Aegislash, Mega Pinsir, both Mega Charizards, Manaphy or even Rotom-W than THIS. The lead set is pretty terrible now that Defog clears hazards from your side of the field. LO set is an awesome revenge killer or ultra late game cleaner, but base 95 offenses just aren't cutting it anymore.
 
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