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Pokémon Bisharp

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Magick i use AV bisharp if it's my sole steel. it lets it tank a lati@s draco meteor once and pursuit them, tank aegi shadow balls better, even a thundurus LO tbolt, etc. i mean, it's not the /best/ ever (you should use blackglasses if you're using pursuit bisharp with another check to lati@s) but it's worth using for sure

252 atk / 80 spdef / 176 spe adamant
 
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Magick i use AV bisharp if it's my sole steel. it lets it tank a lati@s draco meteor once and pursuit them, tank aegi shadow balls better, even a thundurus LO tbolt, etc. i mean, it's not the /best/ ever (you should use blackglasses if you're using pursuit bisharp with another check to lati@s) but it's worth using for sure

252 atk / 80 spdef / 176 spe adamant

Honestly I really can't see much use for an AV set. Bisharp has so many better items and usually appreciates the boost it can get from a Swords Dance. Sure, it has Defiant, but switching into a defog can be pretty situational. I would never use an AV set, even if it is your sole steel. Life Orb is so much better of an option, the boost is very necessary, as it allows knock off to OHKO most pokemon that don't resist it on the first hit.
 
so you'd rather have power but be owned by lati@s and other special dragons... ?

sd bisharp is so overrated too lol
 
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so you'd rather have power but be owned by lati@s and other special dragons... ?

sd bisharp is so overrated too lol

Well, what Bisharp doesn't pack Sucker Punch?

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 398-471 (109.3 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

That's 252 HP EVs, which you almost never see.
 
you're assuming lati@s just can't switch out lol

you run avest so you can safely pursuit lati@s before it tramples you. it is most certainly viable and quite good on certain builds

your insinuations of it being a ludicrous option are just baseless; sd bisharp is kinda an obsolete set atm anyway with pursuit being realized as a very helpful move, and AV helps with this job so much
 
you're assuming lati@s just can't switch out lol

you run avest so you can safely pursuit lati@s before it tramples you. it is most certainly viable and quite good on certain builds

your insinuations of it being a ludicrous option are just baseless; sd bisharp is kinda an obsolete set atm anyway with pursuit being realized as a very helpful move, and AV helps with this job so much

Even if Swords Dance (which it isn't lol) is bad, AV on Bisharp is terrible and Life Orb is a much better option. You really, really want the power. Bisharp never goes defensive, anyway
 
if you can't realize the flaws in relying on sucker punch for lati@s and being 2hko'd with it being your only check..

i, myself, almost never even use life orb. you /really really/ want to not lose more than you /really really/ want power

if you also can't see the major flaws in your logic then i won't bother attempting to convince you b/c you're just arguing for the sake of arguing otherwise
 
if you can't realize the flaws in relying on sucker punch for lati@s and being 2hko'd with it being your only check..

i, myself, almost never even use life orb. you /really really/ want to not lose more than you /really really/ want power

if you also can't see the major flaws in your logic then i won't bother attempting to convince you b/c you're just arguing for the sake of arguing otherwise

Arguing for the sake of arguing? This is ridiculous. Life Orb is standard on Bisharp, never AV. It's not even on the analysis. You want power on Bisharp, there's literally nothing else to use on it. There are more flaws in your logic than mine, considering I use Bisharp on every OU team I use.

Seriously, almost no one uses AV on Bisharp.
 
Arguing for the sake of arguing? This is ridiculous. Life Orb is standard on Bisharp, never AV. It's not even on the analysis. You want power on Bisharp, there's literally nothing else to use on it. There are more flaws in your logic than mine, considering I use Bisharp on every OU team I use.

Seriously, almost no one uses AV on Bisharp.

no one in my family goes to college
it's standard practice
thus, i shouldn't go to college

following the hive mind is such a fallacious and dangerous argument in and of itself. just because something isn't popular doesn't mean it's not good. there are several tournament sets that haven't spread much yet. recover hazard-setter deo-d, substitute thundurus, and most recently, assault vest azumarill among many others.

don't assume that because a set is rare it is bad. with this logic, shifts and innovation would never occur and we'd be playing a stagnant metagame.
 
no one in my family goes to college
it's standard practice
thus, i shouldn't go to college

following the hive mind is such a fallacious argument in and of itself. just because something isn't popular doesn't mean it's not good. there are several tournament sets that haven't spread yet. recover hazard-setter deo-d, substitute thundurus, and most recently, assault vest azumarill which still hasn't really caught on.

don't assume that because a set is rare it is bad. with this logic, shifts and innovation would never occur and we'd be playing a stagnant metagame.

Yeah, but AV is not good on bisharp if you read what I said. I'm done arguing with you; I know I'm right.
 
Isnt Dread Plate/Black Glasses getting more common then Life Orb or am I going crazy ?_? Especially with triple dark attacks if you use Pursuit.
I'm not a fan of LO, cuts down on his longevity which is important for a trapper, not being able to safely switch in your supposed target is ass. (Which is why AV is good lol)
 
Yeah, but AV is not good on bisharp if you read what I said. I'm done arguing with you; I know I'm right.

I read what you said, and I fail to see anything that supports why it's bad. All you said is "No one uses it" and "it's not on the analysis". So you're implying that just because it's not given a huge mention in the analysis, it means that AV Bisharp sucks? Lol okay. I don't understand why some of you people treat the analysis like they're some kind of bible which commands you to use something a specific way, or else you're doing it wrong. This is far from the truth. For example, one of Aegislash's best sets, the Sub Toxic set, was at one point not even mentioned on the analysis because no one had ever discovered how good it was yet. Same kind of goes with Azumarill, where everyone at one point was only really using CB but now it's become somewhat rare and almost obsolete to its other sets; Belly Drum and the big hyped Assault Vest set which also at one point wasn't on the analysis. In order to find out what good in the meta, you often have to branch out and try other things, or else you're just going to be using the same shit over and over again instead of finding new ways to exploit the Pokemon's strengths.

And yes, Dice is indeed right, Swords Dance Bisharp is indeed pretty overrated. He's not saying it's bad in the slightest, but Bisharp's role in the meta as a Pursuit trapper is just so much more valuable than its ability to sweep. Life Orb is still a decent item, but to be honest Bisharp hates the extra recoil from it because it compromises its valuable bulk which it needs in order to trap the Lati twins and Aegislash better. That's why Blackglasses and Assault Vest are often considered the better items because your allowing Bisharp to become a more formidable and flexible trapper, which is what most teams want Bisharp to be. With an Assault Vest, Bisharp forgoes the ability to hit things harder in order to pretty much become the most reliable Pursuit trapper in the tier. If Latios for example chooses to stay in on a non AV Bisharp and Draco Meteors as you Pursuit, not only will you still fail to OHKO after LO recoil if its near full health, but Bisharp itself is also going to be in range of being 2HKOed by Draco Meteor, which forces you to either Sucker Punch the following turn or risk him going for Draco again and losing your trapper. Even if you manage to predict correctly, Bisharp is going to be sitting at almost below 30% health, and factoring in continual LO recoil and hazards, Bisharp is pretty much dead after that endeavor. With Assault Vest, you're able to take Draco Meteors like a champ from both Lati twins and still beat them with Pursuit before they do the same with Draco, whereas with LO you're basically dead. AV is definitely the superior option if your team desperately needs trapping support, but if it doesn't as much, than yeah opting for Life Orb or Blackglasses is fine because it fits better on other kinds of teams. AV also has other merits like checking other special attackers better such as Greninja, Manaphy, and Kyurem-B, which can often be huge threats to a lot of teams.

Overall, you're incredibly ignorant if you think Assault Vest is bad just because the average garbage ladder player doesn't use it. Assault Vest has its merits on some teams just as much as LO or Blackglasses, regardless on the OHKOes it misses out on. My point is, they allow Bisharp to function better on specific teams, and they each have their reasons to use them on different teams.

tl;dr
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Both Assault Vest and Life Orb have their place on Bisharp. Assault Vest is better versus offensive teams whose Defoggers can heavily damage Bisharp to the point of being crippled, and where 50 / 50's with Pursuit vs Sucker Punch can cost you the match. Basically over a long period of battles you realize that Life Orb's Pursuit trap vs Defoggers is inconsistent. Assault Vest fixes that inconsistency by giving enough bulk to prevent the 2HKO from a Defogger. In addition, AV Bisharp isn't as reliant on Sucker Punch vs offensive teams because it has enough bulk to tank a hit and go for a reliable Knock Off / Iron Head.

Life Orb paired with Pursuit 's only real merit is vs Aegislash, where you can threaten an immediate OHKO with Knock Off as 100% health. At full health, Shield-forme Aegislash can tank a Knock Off from AV and go for the OHKO with Sacred Sword. Aegislash will be incredibly crippled, but it still isn't removed from the field. This can be especially annoying if you have paired Bisharp with a choiced or HJK using Fighting-type such as Choice Specs Keldeo, Choice Scarf Terrakion, and Mega-Medicham.

Life Orb is much better against defensive teams. AV Bisharp can't break through Steel-types like Life Orb+SD can because if it uses Knock Off it lessens the damage output you will have if you get a future Defiant boost. Even with a Defiant boost, AV Bisharp with max+ attack "only" does 38% to 45% to Skarmory after its Leftovers has been Knock'ed Off, so it is possible to survive a 2HKO from +2 Knock with item then without item. Defensive teams without Unaware Quagsire struggle with Life Orb Bisharp's nearly unresisted coverage + ability to cripple their passive recovery. It still is a good set.

With the trend towards the metagame towards offense (which has so many great sweepers), it is understandable that AV is becoming the set of choice on Bisharp and Life Orb is losing usage due to the reasons listed in the first paragraph. Analyses aren't the end all be all that people make them out to be. Many of them are uncompleted right now and are old and outdated. Sometimes the writers behind the analysis aren't very good and simply list bad set combinations and leave out other good ones.

Also guys cut him some slack :|
 
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I'm kind of amazed at how good Bisharp got it this gen. It didn't actually change in any way, but its moves, typing and the environment around it all changed as if to perfectly suit it. Now it has a more powerful and reliable dark type STAB with Knock Off, no longer needing to rely on Night Slash for reliable Dark-type damage. Both it's types got buffed offensively; Dark no longer being resisted by Steel is huge, and Fairies take Iron Head from being a grudging concession to being an asset. Defensively it didn't suffer from either the Steel or Dark type's defensive nerfs (lost resistances and new weakness respectively) because its dual typing covers all those up. Hell, because Flying type has become such an important offensive type now and Fighting types have become less common, you could say it's been indirectly buffed defensively. And all of this isn't even considering the biggest boon of all it got this generation; the Defog buff. Because of that, Defiant went from a small bonus to being Bisharp's defining asset, and cemented it as the very best Pokemon in an all new niche; Defog deterring.

Now I haven't used Bisharp, but I have played against it a lot and I think it's interesting to analyse the impact it has on the OU metagame this generation. I'd have to say the bit that makes it most interesting and powerful is it's ability to deter hazard removal simply by being on the field. You don't even need to activate Bisharp's Defiant boost to make it useful. Hell, it doesn't even have to hit the field. All it has to do it sit there and threaten, keeping your hazards safe and forcing the opponent to act in ways that you control. Bisharp basically becomes a spinblocker for Defog... one that doesn't even need to be sent out to do it's job. Add in it's natural offensive presence even without a Defiant Boost and you have a Pokemon that basically defines the word "pressure". One wrong move against it and you're finished. Its constant threat forces your opponent to play conservatively, something which any competitive player knows is a great help in controlling a match.

Now seeing as I don't use it, I'm more interested in ways to counteract Bisharp's assets than I am in exploiting them myself. The thing that really needs to be countered for Bisharp isn't preventing it from sweeping and breaking your walls though; it's figuring out how remove hazards safely when it's looming there as a threat. The most common counterplay for Bisharp that you see is taking advantage of the more predictable aspects of its play and hitting it when it switches in on a predicted defog, rather than defogging blindly. Of course, this is a prediction game and leads to some pretty heavy mind games, and the advantage still goes to the Bisharp user, especially since they can run stuff like Assault vest to allow them to beat you anyway. They have less to loose and can afford to make more mistakes than the person trying to get off the defog. Of course, the other possibility is to simply pass up Defog altogether and use a Rapid Spinner, but that usually means making compromises in other areas of your team composition, since if you can't fit Excadrill onto your team nicely you're going to end up having to use a less than ideal Pokemon like Starmie or Donphan. Another counterplay option is setting up your team so that it can handle a +2 Bisharp if need be, though this is hard to do with most teams. A new strategy I've been experimenting with are lure strategies; equipping your defogger so that it can lure in and eliminate Bisharp on it's own. This usually means compromising the defogger in other areas of its performance though, so I think it's only a real option if guaranteed hazard removal is an absolute must for your team.

I'm curious to hear if people have other ideas of how to play against Bisharp, not just ideas on how to better use it. Bisharp is one of those Pokemon that has to be considered during teambuilding because it fills such an important niche, so it bears talking about ways to deal with it.
 
I'm kind of amazed at how good Bisharp got it this gen. It didn't actually change in any way, but its moves, typing and the environment around it all changed as if to perfectly suit it. Now it has a more powerful and reliable dark type STAB with Knock Off, no longer needing to rely on Night Slash for reliable Dark-type damage. Both it's types got buffed offensively; Dark no longer being resisted by Steel is huge, and Fairies take Iron Head from being a grudging concession to being an asset. Defensively it didn't suffer from either the Steel or Dark type's defensive nerfs (lost resistances and new weakness respectively) because its dual typing covers all those up. Hell, because Flying type has become such an important offensive type now and Fighting types have become less common, you could say it's been indirectly buffed defensively. And all of this isn't even considering the biggest boon of all it got this generation; the Defog buff. Because of that, Defiant went from a small bonus to being Bisharp's defining asset, and cemented it as the very best Pokemon in an all new niche; Defog deterring.

Now I haven't used Bisharp, but I have played against it a lot and I think it's interesting to analyse the impact it has on the OU metagame this generation. I'd have to say the bit that makes it most interesting and powerful is it's ability to deter hazard removal simply by being on the field. You don't even need to activate Bisharp's Defiant boost to make it useful. Hell, it doesn't even have to hit the field. All it has to do it sit there and threaten, keeping your hazards safe and forcing the opponent to act in ways that you control. Bisharp basically becomes a spinblocker for Defog... one that doesn't even need to be sent out to do it's job. Add in it's natural offensive presence even without a Defiant Boost and you have a Pokemon that basically defines the word "pressure". One wrong move against it and you're finished. Its constant threat forces your opponent to play conservatively, something which any competitive player knows is a great help in controlling a match.

Now seeing as I don't use it, I'm more interested in ways to counteract Bisharp's assets than I am in exploiting them myself. The thing that really needs to be countered for Bisharp isn't preventing it from sweeping and breaking your walls though; it's figuring out how remove hazards safely when it's looming there as a threat. The most common counterplay for Bisharp that you see is taking advantage of the more predictable aspects of its play and hitting it when it switches in on a predicted defog, rather than defogging blindly. Of course, this is a prediction game and leads to some pretty heavy mind games, and the advantage still goes to the Bisharp user, especially since they can run stuff like Assault vest to allow them to beat you anyway. They have less to loose and can afford to make more mistakes than the person trying to get off the defog. Of course, the other possibility is to simply pass up Defog altogether and use a Rapid Spinner, but that usually means making compromises in other areas of your team composition, since if you can't fit Excadrill onto your team nicely you're going to end up having to use a less than ideal Pokemon like Starmie or Donphan. Another counterplay option is setting up your team so that it can handle a +2 Bisharp if need be, though this is hard to do with most teams. A new strategy I've been experimenting with are lure strategies; equipping your defogger so that it can lure in and eliminate Bisharp on it's own. This usually means compromising the defogger in other areas of its performance though, so I think it's only a real option if guaranteed hazard removal is an absolute must for your team.

I'm curious to hear if people have other ideas of how to play against Bisharp, not just ideas on how to better use it. Bisharp is one of those Pokemon that has to be considered during teambuilding because it fills such an important niche, so it bears talking about ways to deal with it.
Try defog Zapdos. Bisharp gets murdered by heat wave. I am on phone so i can't do calcs, but heat wave from 0 spA Zapdos does around 90% to standard bisharp and zapdos can take knock off and roost the damage.
 
Is running HP Fighting on Lati@s viable?

252 SpA Latias Hidden Power Fighting vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 316-372 (113.2 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Latias Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 316-372 (94.6 - 111.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Latias Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Bisharp: 208-248 (62.2 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It should 1hko Bisharps switching into a predicted Defog, but can't do much against AV Bisharp who Pursuit or Sucker Punch Lati@s into death. (Which shows how useful AV Bisharp is)

Try defog Zapdos. Bisharp gets murdered by heat wave. I am on phone so i can't do calcs, but heat wave from 0 spA Zapdos does around 90% to standard bisharp and zapdos can take knock off and roost the damage.

0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 222-262 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
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You can pair a Defog user with Unaware Quagsire to prevent both a +2 Bisharp or a +2 Thundurus-I from using their attack boosts to sweep your team.
 
Just so you know, the standard AV Bisharp spread is 64 HP, 252+ Atk, 192 SpD, this is a lot more effective at switching into special hits than your max hp 0 spd variant.
 
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