That can only happen if CM Clefable runs Magic Guard and the stall team doesn't have Quagsire or Mega Venusaur (although Stored Power allows Clefable to get past it, it's less common than Flamethrower and will leave Clefable prone to Steel-types such as Ferrothorn). Also, Gliscor can PP stall it, while Chansey will be extremely annoying to eliminate. Clefable is not as big of a threat to stall as you think.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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That can only happen if CM Clefable runs Magic Guard and the stall team doesn't have Quagsire or Mega Venusaur (although Stored Power allows Clefable to get past it, it's less common than Flamethrower and will leave Clefable prone to Steel-types such as Ferrothorn). Also, Gliscor can PP stall it, while Chansey will be extremely annoying to eliminate. Clefable is not as big of a threat to stall as you think.
How about nominating Gothitelle to B+ or A-I mean its got a great niche over other pokemon like its versatile movepool it has awsome moves like psycic , psyshock(these two are stabs), energy ball , grass knot( helps take care of ground types like hippo or quagsire) thunderbolt( helps take skarm or mandibuzz out) HP Fire( helps vs ferro and scizors) , it even has Trick to cripple other dedicated walls that would normally take her hits all day long like chansey , another trait it also has over other pokemon is its ability shadow tag wich means it can basically choose who to cripple or take out something other Ou pokemon only dream of doing and its usually paired with volturn cores to get free switches so it makes trapping far easier so a set up sweeper can come and set up with its checks all gone so please consider ranking it to B+ or even A-
PS: I know its got flaws but its pros outweight its cons
PS: I know its got flaws but its pros outweight its cons
Gothitelle's a p good trapper, that's for certain, but it can't hit terribly hard and can easily be taken advantage of by specially bulky attackers like Mega Gardevoir, of which the CM variants set up in its face. Dark-types also aren't too kind to it, either. I'd say keep Gothie in B or move it to B+. It's simply not on the same level as many of the A- Pokémon, B+ still sounds reasonable in comparison.
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 252-297 (82.8 - 97.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
This right here is why Staraptor runs Adamant; that extremely high power output makes a huge difference between 2HKOs and OHKOs and all you need is to set up your Rocks and have Staraptor maul everything. It pairs excellently with Talonflame and Mega Pinsir to form a Flying Spam core, Staraptor crushing all the walls that need to be broken down to allow Talonflame or Mega Pinsir to sweep safely. As a last positive note, Staraptor attains perfect coverage between Normal/Flying/Fighting and in conjunction with its insane power, it's extremely difficult to switch in on. What keeps bomb burd down from being a total annihilator are its weakness to SR, its above-average Speed stat of 100, its relative frailty (85/70/60) and its common weaknesses to Electric-, Rock- and Ice-type moves. With Aegislash out of the picture, though, Staraptor has become a whole ton more impressive in OU. Staraptor for B+. Kacaw.
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Magic Guard Clefable is a huge threat to Stall: Cosmic Power sets pretty much 6-0 Stall teams by themselves. Your best bet is having Sleep Powder + Sludge Bomb Mega Venusaur, because quite frankly other Stall mons have no way to beat Clefable 1 vs 1. Status doesn't work, Taunt is not really common on stall (I guess Gliscor can use it, but it misses out on EQ which means you can't damage Clefable back). Phazing is only stalling the inevitable. Quagsire and Mega Venusaur both lose to Stored Power (if Venu switches in on Cosmic Power Sludge Bomb doesn't do enough anymore and gets setup on, that's why you need Sleep Powder). Steel-types are annoying, but Ferrothorn doesn't beat Cosmic Power sets with Magic Guard because Gyro Ball does pitiful damage, Leech Seed does nothing. Gliscor can't really stall something that has a 32 PP move in Cosmic Power, as well as Stored Power having 32 PP. You only have 32 PP between Sub and Protect, you can't do that forever. Chansey just dies.
+6 4 SpA Clefable Stored Power (380 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 667-785 (94.7 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
That's if you get to +6 in both defenses, on top of getting to +6 SpAtk with Charge Beam. Chansey can't beat that. Also, Magic Guard lets you use Softboiled which is much better than Moonlight.
So yeah, it's a pretty big threat to Stall if you use the right set that is.
Gothitelle's a p good trapper, that's for certain, but it can't hit terribly hard and can easily be taken advantage of by specially bulky attackers like Mega Gardevoir, of which the CM variants set up in its face. Dark-types also aren't too kind to it, either. I'd say keep Gothie in B or move it to B+. It's simply not on the same level as many of the B+ Pokémon.
Staraptor (B-) -> B+ | Speaking of actually underrated Pokémon, Staraptor is another fantastic wallbreaker to add the repertoire of rising stars in OU ever since Aegislash packed its stuff and left for the gods. Seriously, this thing can hit brutally hard when Banded, which is easily its best use. As people before me have pointed out (and I'm also saying this out of personal experience), Adamant Band Raptor just hits brutally hard with STAB Brave Bird and Double-Edge, shredding everything that doesn't resist it. Here's a small example:
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 252-297 (82.8 - 97.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
This right here is why Staraptor runs Adamant; that extremely high power output makes a huge difference between 2HKOs and OHKOs and all you need is to set up your Rocks and have Staraptor maul everything. It pairs excellently with Talonflame and Mega Pinsir to form a Flying Spam core, Staraptor crushing all the walls that need to be broken down to allow Talonflame or Mega Pinsir to sweep safely. As a last positive note, Staraptor attains perfect coverage between Normal/Flying/Fighting and in conjunction with its insane power, it's extremely difficult to switch in on. What keeps bomb burd down from being a total annihilator are its weakness to SR, its above-average Speed stat of 100, its relative frailty (85/70/60) and its common weaknesses to Electric-, Rock- and Ice-type moves. With Aegislash out of the picture, though, Staraptor has become a whole ton more impressive in OU. Staraptor for B+. Kacaw.
Mmmm..yes but gothitelle shines vs stall and balanced teams with defensive cores also like I mentioned thanks to its ability it is able to confortably choose who to cripple or take out and after doing so it opens an oportunity for a pokemon to set up and sweep and also after it does its job its nice to have a pokemon you can sac so anpther can come in and sweep (do take in mind it did its job Effectively something lots of wallbreaker find it hard to do since they lack gothitelles ability) so it never really is dead weight
About Staraptor IMO it hits strong yes but it sits in a traffical speed tier base 100 and adamant thats getting wrecked by megacham, both charizard forms etc ... Maybe with a scarfed adamant set it'll do but it should proly just stay where it is besides theyre are other and better flying pokemon like mega-pinsir and talonflame wich hit hard , have a boosting move in SD and better speed not to mention in Quick Attack and all of theye flying type moves (respectively)
The only reason I would keep Gothitelle B from my own experience is the fact that it kills so much momentum against things like Balanced teams. You take out one mon then they let whatever comes in and in most cases it's easy cause they'll switch into something that resists the move you're locked into (Specs Set) or just switch into something goth straight up loses to. So now you're forced to switch or get ko'd and hope that you're not letting something set up for a sweep.
Yeah it's not really dead weight against stall what so ever and I could see the move up considering that's one mon handling an entire play style by itself pretty well, but idk maybe I'm just missing a really good point about it.
Yeah you're right about it dismantling stall and defensive cores on balanced which could warrant a move up, but the fact that is all it can really do in most cases can be an issue. Sure it takes out a threat that can let you sweep more easily, but like I mentioned above, that's if their own sweeper or win condition isn't coming in first after you lost any form of momentum from using Gothitelle to trap and take out something.
Yeah it's not really dead weight against stall what so ever and I could see the move up considering that's one mon handling an entire play style by itself pretty well, but idk maybe I'm just missing a really good point about it.
well its definetly B+ or A- material considering it really only has trouble vs HO and it is usually paired with pokemon that trouble HO like mega-manectric and such and since the teams Gothitelle's are usually in are either volturn teams with a set up sweeper or Offensive teams themselves wich only really have trouble vs stall and balance teams with a defensive core , it means HO isnt that big of a problem for gothitelle teammates really help her out right there can be used as a pivot for a pokemon to get a free switch after its been sacced and set up on the switch, my point is its pros most DEFINATELY outweight her cons
Gothitelle's a p good trapper, that's for certain, but it can't hit terribly hard and can easily be taken advantage of by specially bulky attackers like Mega Gardevoir, of which the CM variants set up in its face. Dark-types also aren't too kind to it, either. I'd say keep Gothie in B or move it to B+. It's simply not on the same level as many of the B+ Pokémon.
Staraptor (B-) -> B+ | Speaking of actually underrated Pokémon, Staraptor is another fantastic wallbreaker to add the repertoire of rising stars in OU ever since Aegislash packed its stuff and left for the gods. Seriously, this thing can hit brutally hard when Banded, which is easily its best use. As people before me have pointed out (and I'm also saying this out of personal experience), Adamant Band Raptor just hits brutally hard with STAB Brave Bird and Double-Edge, shredding everything that doesn't resist it. Here's a small example:
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 252-297 (82.8 - 97.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
This right here is why Staraptor runs Adamant; that extremely high power output makes a huge difference between 2HKOs and OHKOs and all you need is to set up your Rocks and have Staraptor maul everything. It pairs excellently with Talonflame and Mega Pinsir to form a Flying Spam core, Staraptor crushing all the walls that need to be broken down to allow Talonflame or Mega Pinsir to sweep safely. As a last positive note, Staraptor attains perfect coverage between Normal/Flying/Fighting and in conjunction with its insane power, it's extremely difficult to switch in on. What keeps bomb burd down from being a total annihilator are its weakness to SR, its above-average Speed stat of 100, its relative frailty (85/70/60) and its common weaknesses to Electric-, Rock- and Ice-type moves. With Aegislash out of the picture, though, Staraptor has become a whole ton more impressive in OU. Staraptor for B+. Kacaw.
Never mimd I read staraptors analysis and it definately need B+ choice bandraptor 2HKOS almost every defensive poke and does crap ton of damage to anything bar skarm wich even then final gambit kinda criples it
Here are some 'mons in A-/B+:
'loom
KyuB
Mamo
Skarm
Chans
MCross
MChomp
Mew
Scizor
EDIT: Major issue w/ even CB Reckless 'Raptor: Evio Doublade exists, and it is out for you.
Do they compare w/ Gothitelle? Gothitelle suddenly pales in comparison to some of the best breakers/walls/utility mons in the game. While Gothitelle may be good against stall, it isn't nearly the death knell that everyone assumes it to be, judging by some replays that I have seen.
Doublade eviolite please its got tons of flaws knock off is a thing you know its dead weight really maybe itll work in UU but not in Ou and yes i know they are making an OU analysis fot doublade but still its not OU material
Gothitelle is the beast people thing it handles every stall mon viable in OU !! Those wallbreakers are strong yes but are managable you cant really prepare a stall team for gothitelle though remember shadow Tag they arent going ANYWHERE but to RIP Shadow Tag is the main thing those wallbreakers are jelous of gothitelle
Also read staraptors analysis one guy proved me wrong I thought raptor was crap then I read its analysis and it proved me wrong but again gothitelle should proly go B+ or A- and Raptor B+
Gothitlle is dead weight against offense, and needs a specs to hit things hard enough. Definitely not as good as kabutops or mega medicham is.
Doublade is actually really good for stall, as even w/o evio it has 150 base defense.
I've used Gothitelle quite a bit, and it's honestly fine in B. Pairing it up with Azu/Loom/Greninja/Mamo gives you a very effective way to beat stall while also being pretty good vs offense, but much of the time you're going 5v6 since Goth is very limited by what it can trap. Sure, it's a 5v6 where you presumably have a matchup advantage, (since you want Goth to trap stuff that threatens your team, and therefore if have nothing for Goth to trap you're set), but that doesn't change the fact that Goth is literal deadweight if there's nothing for it to trap (all it does vs non-venu offense is maybe check Keldeo.) It's still quite customisable (I used an HP Ground variant once to trap VenuTran), but anything offensive and even some defensive stuff (hello Knock Off Gliscor) eats it alive no matter what it runs. And while it's technically uncounterable since you can't switch into it, it's the easiest thing in the world to check, and it's really easy for any team that isn't full stall to take advantage of once it's done taking something out.
Don't get me wrong, the support it provides is incredible, but it has a metric ton of glaring flaws which prevent it from moving up any further.
Don't get me wrong, the support it provides is incredible, but it has a metric ton of glaring flaws which prevent it from moving up any further.
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What type of argument is that and remember its got trick so having isnt bad at all especially when the pokemon thats in wont be switching at all and my point is gothitelle is B+ or even A- material because its an amazing offensive support pokemon and it clearly has its niches over kabutops and megacham like for example doesnt waste a mega slot (wich is valuable and with trick can switch out so a set up sweeper can set up qnd sweep and over kabutops you can use another water type poke like keldeo and azumarill or even greninja wich dont heavily rely on rain) though I know it has its flaws but its not entierly dead weight vs HO because you can use it as a pivot and thanks to shadow tag if it switches on the right pokemon after you sac or switch to a another pokemon safely (thanks to shadow tag ) you can wreck havoc punch holes set up and sweep etc.. Again it has its flaws but its not like Im saying oh put gothitelle in S rank or something like that you should proly use gothitelle more youll then see its B+ or A- material hope you can see its pros outweight its cons
Raikou is a god in today's metagame. It beats so much it's incredible:
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.
A+ Rank
Azumarill-Beaten
Scizor (Mega)- Nope
Talonflame-Beaten
Tyranitar-nope
A Rank
Gliscor-Beaten
A- Rank
Breloom-Beaten
Chansey-Its a special attacker.
Diggersby-Nope
Gardevoir (Mega)-Nope
Gyarados-Beaten
Kyurem-B-Nope
So thats 22 of these A-Rank mons beaten. And even then, the ones it doesn't beat only need prior damage(varies on what is in question). And specs is a REALLY underrated raikou set, as it is a great pivot and wall breaker. AV is still a great general check to the meta tho, but Raikou I feel is more comparable to the likes of Tornadus-T than it is to Lucario and Conkeldurr. Raikou->B+
Yeah but it still deserves to at least be B+ because it helps though I can know see it most likely is not A- material but rather B+ material since it does have trouble vs Offense
Gothitelle for B+
I dunno, Skarm and Heatran usually carry Roar and Whirlwind
Like Albacore said, Gothitelle has too many flaws to warrant moving up at this time. I think it is right for Goth to be on the level of Conk rather than Scizor and MegaCham. Gothitelle should stay in B
On phone so I can't calc but I have a few corrections (in no particular order).->B+
Raikou is a god in today's metagame. It beats so much it's incredible:
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
Charizard (Mega-X)-Nope.
Landorus-HP Ice
Mawile (Mega)-Nope, leaving soon tho
Thundurus-Beaten
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.
A+ Rank
Bisharp-Beaten
Clefable-*Beaten *requires specs
Excadrill-Nope
Garchomp-Beats if not scarf
Greninja-Beaten
Gyarados (Mega)-Beaten
Keldeo-Beaten
Pinsir (Mega)-Beaten
Tyranitar (Mega)-nope
Venusaur (Mega)-beat if extrasensory
A Rank
Charizard (Mega-Y)-Beaten
Dragonite-Beaten* *multiscale not intact
Ferrothorn- Nope
Gengar-Beaten
Heatran-Nope
Hippowdon-Nope
Landorus-T-Beaten
Mandibuzz-Beaten
Latias-Beaten after SR
Latios-Beaten
Rotom-W-Beaten
Terrakion-Beaten if extrasensory, otherwise beats non scarf/band variants
A- Rank
Mamoswine-Nope
Manaphy-Beaten
Skarmory-Beaten
So thats 22 of these A-Rank mons beaten. And even then, the ones it doesn't beat only need prior damage(varies on what is in question). And specs is a REALLY underrated raikou set, as it is a great pivot and wall breaker. AV is still a great general check to the meta tho, but Raikou I feel is more comparable to the likes of Tornadus-T than it is to Lucario and Conkeldurr. Raikou->B+
You can't beat a boosted Bisharp because of Sucker Punch (and an unboosted one will still do like ~50% iirc).
I think AV Azumarill can take a hit from Specs. Maybe? It sure as hell can survive unboosted T-Bolts.
I don't think Extrasensory can OHKO Mega Venu even if you're at +1 or holding Specs, and you have to watch out for Sleep Powder, Giga Drain, and the rare Earthquake.
Your ability to beat Greninja is dependent on its movepool (does it have HP Grass/Grass Knot or U-Turn?) and Protean guessing games. AV can take a couple hits from it at least.
I think BU Talonflame can survive an unboosted T-Bolt and set-up on you. Don't quote me on this one.
You have to take a hit to deal with Gengar if it's the stallbreaker set and it got a Sub up.
I'm pretty sure bulky Lando-T can survive HP Ice (it happened to me once when I was using Mega Manectric) unless you have Specs and it will deal a considerable amount with Earthquake (if not OHKO).
CM and Rock Polish are both known to be used by Lando-I. Since you can't switch in immediately, it'll be boosted by the time you come in to deal with it.
DD Dragonite outspeeds you and can hit you hard with D-Claw or Earthquake. I'm pretty sure CBBnite wins even with Multiscale broken as long as it's reasonably healthy.
I believe you need to be boosted or have Specs to deal with the Latis. AV has to watch out for Psyshock.
Both Gyarados and Mega Gyarados outspeed you at +1 unless you're Scarfed, and I think Mega Gyarados is bulky enough to take a hit.
Not really your comparing it to scizor and megacham like why ? Anyways its got shadow tag and therefore its far easier to use since it basically can pick who it will kill or even cripple not many wallbreakers can do that so it should go up to B+ since it does have its flaws and PS mention a better argument next time please
I know what shadow tag allows you to do. MegaCham and Scizor have fewer flaws and are usually more successful then goth, and thus should be ranked higher
Yeah it was compared to those two (Scizor and M-Cham) because those are B+ ranked mons. If you're going to nominate something to a certain rank it's always a good idea to run a comparions to mons in that rank bracket and justify whether not its useful. Might talk about M-Cham more after I've had some more time to use it. It's looking pretty good for M-Cham right now.
Gothitelle is absolute shit against every other playstyle that isn't stall, literally the only reason it's as high as it is happens to be because of one niche role, its stats are hilariously bad, without the existence of stall Gothitelle wouldn't even be ranked. This is coming from an avid stall player that uses Gothitelle on several of my teams solely for taking out opposing stall, if I'm facing any other team archetype chances are Goth isn't going to see usage that round. Its got a fantastic niche but that's literally all it is good for so please stop trying to argue for this shit to be moved up.
Can you please use punctuation? It's really hard to tell what you're trying to say.
Gothitelle is perfect in the spot it's in now, because of it's frailty, lack of speed, matchup reliance and bad typing. These make it an inconsistent use of a team slot, because although goth is excellent at opening holes in defensive cores against offensive teams the most it's going to do is punish a choice locked pokemon it can take advantage of. When this is compared to pokemon of higher ranks the problems start to become more pronounced, and it shows why it's outclassed by other stall breakers like Gardevoir herracross Mawile or any of a few other choices who can actually hurt offensive teams as well as the defensive cores they're meant to break. It's lower because it's outclassed, not bad, and holds a niche as the best shadow tag user.
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