Why restrict a mega stone? It's not broken, it has counters. It's just centralising, and not pleasant to face. Why not just ban -ate + priority? You solve all the problems
If you'll notice, I said stab ate speed. Stab makes a huge difference. This seems like the best option as people will just continue to complain about getting destroyed by Dnite after it comfortably sets up on whatever thanks to Multiscale. DD, Espeed, EQ/Fire blast, superpower is pretty damned good coverage.Old_Gregg there are many other things that can use -atespeed besides togekiss.
-Atespeed is not broken. More specifically -ate Dragonite is not broken. I've both never had a problem with beating it, or finding checks to it. One of the big weaknesses it has is the fact that it will almost always be weak to Fridge and pixi users(if dnite uses pinsirite, fridge weavile OHKOs with fake out) if not running aggronite or something. That, and it HAS to run Superpower to get around Latiasite Heatran, who is both common and easy to fit on teams, or it gets walled hard by it, and eats a flash cannon or burn. Being forced to run superpower over earthquake leaves it walled by pretty much any steel type with a superpower neutrality/immunity(flying/steels,fairy/steels,ghost steels ect).Heck one of my favorite e-speeders, entei beats it HARD with alterianite, due to both resisting espeed, and having pixilate return/espeed of its own. Altarianite landorus is also a fine check to it, eating it alive with pixilate return, but that's beside the point. Things that have large amounts of bulk can also check it pretty decently, like sabenite users, or stuff that has access to status moves like t-wave or will-o-wisp. Not to mention that without EQ, a top threat in the meta-Victini- can check i very nicely.
-Ate checking -Ate is not an argument for not banning -Ate, its actually an argument for banning -Ate. It's similar to Fakespeed in AAA as in it restricts multiple pokemon from functioning properly, which is why priority is a double-edged sword between checking and centralising.Old_Gregg there are many other things that can use -atespeed besides togekiss.
-Atespeed is not broken. More specifically -ate Dragonite is not broken. I've both never had a problem with beating it, or finding checks to it. One of the big weaknesses it has is the fact that it will almost always be weak to Fridge and pixi users(if dnite uses pinsirite, fridge weavile OHKOs with fake out) if not running aggronite or something. That, and it HAS to run Superpower to get around Latiasite Heatran, who is both common and easy to fit on teams, or it gets walled hard by it, and eats a flash cannon or burn. Being forced to run superpower over earthquake leaves it walled by pretty much any steel type with a superpower neutrality/immunity(flying/steels,fairy/steels,ghost steels ect).Heck one of my favorite e-speeders, entei beats it HARD with alterianite, due to both resisting espeed, and having pixilate return/espeed of its own. Altarianite landorus is also a fine check to it, eating it alive with pixilate return, but that's beside the point. Things that have large amounts of bulk can also check it pretty decently, like sabenite users, or stuff that has access to status moves like t-wave or will-o-wisp. Not to mention that without EQ, a top threat in the meta-Victini- can check i very nicely.
Please take up all bug reports regarding this metagame on the main server with Slayer95, as he recoded Mix and Mega such that it would fit on there.I just found the number one biggest bug in the code I've seen or even heard of. Baton pass treats mega evolution as a volatile status condition or whatever, and therefor PASSES IT. Something is very wrong here! Someone just passed sablenite from togekiss to magnezone- then mega evolved AGAIN w/ alakazite! This is so very wrong and incredibly broken. Pikachuun! HELP!
Not to be a douche, but I'd be more likely to take this seriously if you weren't always calling for a suspect of something, bruh. The ates are not only checkable, but COUNTERABLE, as I explained in a lengthy post a little while back. And not just by ates. Pixinite (by FAR the more popular of dragonites options) is HARD walled by poison types that are immune to ground (I.e., levitating or flying types), and a bunch of different steels can hard wall it depending on wether it chooses to use EQ or super power, on the defensive side, venusaurite skarm (my favorite physical wall/support) walls it like its absolutely nothing, and deals a solid chunk back w/ iron head. Manectite users can knock it back down to square one, then let something else come in to tank the hit or voltturn out or whatever. It's also incredibly prone to status; adamant can't outspeed timid pidgeotite gengar at +1, it's walled fairly hard by Pdon (then lava plume has a great chance to burn it and deals more than you'd expect and precipice blades really hurts it), etc.. It's not unstoppable. I've conceded on every other ban thus far (with some convincing), but this is completely unnecessary.-Ate checking -Ate is not an argument for not banning -Ate, its actually an argument for banning -Ate. It's similar to Fakespeed in AAA as in it restricts multiple pokemon from functioning properly, which is why priority is a double-edged sword between checking and centralising.
ok sorry about that, I forgot. And I didn't mean to complain, it was just a major bug I found, and it really needs to be fixed.Please take up all complaints regarding this metagame on the main server (in terms of bugs) with Slayer95, as he recoded Mix and Mega such that it would fit on there.
I meant bug reports in my post, not complaints, so I fixed that to be more accurateok sorry about that, I forgot. And I didn't mean to complain, it was just a major bug I found, and it really needs to be fixed.
I just found the number one biggest bug in the code I've seen or even heard of. Baton pass treats mega evolution as a volatile status condition or whatever, and therefor PASSES IT. Something is very wrong here! Someone just passed sablenite from togekiss to magnezone- then mega evolved AGAIN w/ alakazite! This is so very wrong and incredibly broken. Pikachuun! HELP!
Fairly certain you'll get an error if you try going below 0 or above 255.Avalugg @ Abomasite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Avalanche
- Earthquake
- Crunch/Stone Edge
95 HP
117+40 Atk
184+30 Def
44+40 Sp. Atk
46+20 Sp. Def
28-30 Speed
That's right, -2 speed. NOTHING will be outspeeding you and with 157 attack gyro ball hits like a truck full of explosives in an oil field. Giggity.
Yes, I recognise it's counterable, but there's something you're forgetting. In Inheritance Gale wings was completely counterable, viable and good counters. The problem was that none of these counters were viable on offence, even if they were they could rarely handle multiple Gale wings spammers, Salamence, Dragonite and Landorus-Therian in particular. Two days after Inheritance was over Gale wings was banned. It was not because of it being uncounterable, but extremely pressuring towards offence, making offence rather unpleasant where people would just try to win speed ties, leaving the game up to 50/50s a large portion of the time. And lets take a look at the most common Manectite user, because I like to fiddle with that kinda stuff.Not to be a douche, but I'd be more likely to take this seriously if you weren't always calling for a suspect of something, bruh. The ates are not only checkable, but COUNTERABLE, as I explained in a lengthy post a little while back. And not just by ates. Pixinite (by FAR the more popular of dragonites options) is HARD walled by poison types that are immune to ground (I.e., levitating or flying types), and a bunch of different steels can hard wall it depending on wether it chooses to use EQ or super power, on the defensive side, venusaurite skarm (my favorite physical wall/support) walls it like its absolutely nothing, and deals a solid chunk back w/ iron head. Manectite users can knock it back down to square one, then let something else come in to tank the hit or voltturn out or whatever. It's also incredibly prone to status; adamant can't outspeed timid pidgeotite gengar at +1, it's walled fairly hard by Pdon (then lava plume has a great chance to burn it and deals more than you'd expect and precipice blades really hurts it), etc.. It's not unstoppable. I've conceded on every other ban thus far (with some convincing), but this is completely unnecessary.
They're basically the megagross of OU. If you aren't prepared for it, it will straight up sweep your entire team, gg. But any decent player can prepare for it.
ok sorry about that, I forgot. And I didn't mean to complain, it was just a major bug I found, and it really needs to be fixed.
Avalugg @ Abomasite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Avalanche
- Earthquake
- Crunch/Stone Edge
95 HP
117+40 Atk
184+30 Def
44+40 Sp. Atk
46+20 Sp. Def
28-30 Speed
That's right, -2 speed. NOTHING will be outspeeding you and with 157 attack gyro ball hits like a truck full of explosives in an oil field. Giggity.
Excellent that we're seeing progress. Any reason for why we're suspecting Dragonite over the link of Priority + -Ate?We are now suspecting Dragonite.
Monstrous offense, two different powerful -ate builds that can cut through way too many things, a diverse movepool, powerful setup, Altarianite to patch up its typing, Multiscale to setup in the first place... Dragonite is pretty nuts, and I'm unconvinced that it's helping to "stabilize the meta" by being centralizing.
I was originally unconvinced of its problem-ness, but having spent some time on the ladder, yeah, I'm getting concerned.
Further discussion go!
Also thanks Tyrell D. Barnes. I have linked to your document in the OP. Your help is appreciated!
Excellent that we're seeing progress. Any reason for why we're suspecting Dragonite over the link of Priority + -Ate?
Other than that, why can't we use Preevolutions with mega stones? Doublade :(
That's the thing tho, it's really not that hard for offense to beat. I assume you saw the core I've been running a few pages back, I assume; it was full offense, hyperoffense even, but I have no difficulty dealing w/ it. It's not all that bulky, and multiscale, while awesome, can be very difficult to keep intact. It's very easily worn down despite having roost, as roosting means killing momentum. It is also prone to status (even offense will often run a status-inducer as an E-Brake to opposing sweepers), and it's coverage is only meh in this meta, meaning that it actually requires significant support against any decent team of any archetype, as it isn't that hard to wall it w/ at least something. Skarm (despite being a defensive mon) actually works very well on offense to control hazards on the field and help to pivot stuff in, and (especially w/ venusaurite) completely stops it dead in its tracks. Any (well, i suppose technically not all, but basically any good) offensive team will have at least one support/pivot/whatever, and so saying that offense has no checks for it just isn't true.Yes, I recognise it's counterable, but there's something you're forgetting. In Inheritance Gale wings was completely counterable, viable and good counters. The problem was that none of these counters were viable on offence, even if they were they could rarely handle multiple Gale wings spammers, Salamence, Dragonite and Landorus-Therian in particular. Two days after Inheritance was over Gale wings was banned. It was not because of it being uncounterable, but extremely pressuring towards offence, making offence rather unpleasant where people would just try to win speed ties, leaving the game up to 50/50s a large portion of the time. And lets take a look at the most common Manectite user, because I like to fiddle with that kinda stuff.
252+ Atk Pixilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 162-191 (49.2 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
Raikou fails to OHKO with Hidden power Ice and Dragonite wins (most of the time :p)
252+ Atk Pixilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 169-199 (56.5 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Same deal except Thundurus has a great chance to knock Dragonite out, and this disregarding the fact that there's so many viable -Ate abusers. Hydreigon, Suicune, Lucario, Entei which all are fully capable of beating these counters. If you truly want to abuse -Ate, make a team with enough -Ates to switch into these counters and handle them.
Personally, I'm not running offence in Mix and Mega. But I can see how it would become a problem which is why I supported Gale wings ban in Inheritance, and that's why I suggested we DO NOT BAN -ATE because that would mean we're removing multiple mega stones from play, this is not what you'd want to do. Rather, ban Priority + Ate and before you bring up why we should be more conferrable discussion complex bans in Mix and mega, that is because if we ban stones we're not removing Dragonite, we're removing every viable users of said stone, and since we cannot manipulate a mega stone we should be prone to complex ban.
Actually, I feel gengar fulfills this role far better. Despite not having as many status options, it is faster, and it hits way freaking hard. Nothing walls this monster. It's pretty dang frail, but it's destructive none the less.What I've found to be even worse than dragonite due to its effectiveness in a horrid playstyle is pideotite mew. With 120 base speed and no guard, this thing can put anything to sleep with hypnosis, or go for zap cannon/dynamic punch confusion para hax, as well as spam focus blast. And with that 160 SpA, a zap cannon/focus blast from mew hurts anything, and zap cannon can render anything essentially useless. Its moveset is simply too large for it to have no guard and 160 SpA.
You say that like it's easy to widdle Dragonite, who sends their dragonite in random to sponge an attack? You wait until you can sweep, set up a dragon dance, mega evolve and then spam Extreme speed. What on offence even stops this monster? There are very few reliable answers to ALL ates. Skarmory doesn't want to take a +2 Close combat, Nor does it like the burns from sacred fire and Thunder punch still hurts. Any offensive team runs atleast on status inducer? Where are you getting that from, offence runs hazard and then it uses momentum to overpower the opponent, it doesn't run toxic/will-o-wisp because that would mean it would be balance. Not offence. If you run your skarmory on offence you lose momentum, losing momentum in offence is terrible.That's the thing tho, it's really not that hard for offense to beat. I assume you saw the core I've been running a few pages back, I assume; it was full offense, hyperoffense even, but I have no difficulty dealing w/ it. It's not all that bulky, and multiscale, while awesome, can be very difficult to keep intact. It's very easily worn down despite having roost, as roosting means killing momentum. It is also prone to status (even offense will often run a status-inducer as an E-Brake to opposing sweepers), and it's coverage is only meh in this meta, meaning that it actually requires significant support against any decent team of any archetype, as it isn't that hard to wall it w/ at least something. Skarm (despite being a defensive mon) actually works very well on offense to control hazards on the field and help to pivot stuff in, and (especially w/ venusaurite) completely stops it dead in its tracks. Any (well, i suppose technically not all, but basically any good) offensive team will have at least one support/pivot/whatever, and so saying that offense has no checks for it just isn't true.
Tl;dr, you're wrong.
Actually, I feel gengar fulfills this role far better. Despite not having as many status options, it is faster, and it hits way freaking hard. Nothing walls this monster. It's pretty dang frail, but it's destructive none the less.