Champion Leon
Banned deucer.
Is it worth running Revelation Dance in case it gets Entrained?
I have debated it with myself on my own team.
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BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread
- Thread starter E4 Flint
- Start date
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I have debated it with myself on my own team.
I'd say it's probably good if you run sleep.
Again, scald burn chip is super valuable to wear down non regen walls or negate lefties recovery, registeel for example is much more pressured when burnt. It means unaware walls have to use pp even if you don't attack them which can mean a lot in the long term. Importantly it's also very valuable against imposter Chansey cause you don't wear it down very fast otherwise and it can be a pain.
But if you run spore last move, running scald would be counter productive, and revdance is kinda just better than surf as a last ditched gengar check.
I guess more than a gar check, it means gar doesn't check you as well when unboosted. But ogre is still forced out after entrain. So would I run PH kyogre as a gengar check? No. Would I forgo scald for revdance on a non sleep set? No. I think burn chip is too valuable for that.
On a sleep set yeh revdance is cool.
Champion Leon
Banned deucer.
Thanks. At least with Rev Dance it can KO Gengar after Shell Smash.
I agree with the people who say that Illusion was the wrong thing to suspect this time around, but as they are also saying, we should discuss what to suspect next. And though I did write a long post about Sleep clause, and I believe Sleep Clause is probably a good step as well, there's something a lot more serious we should deal with first:
V-Create
Yes, V-Create. Not Simple or Contrary, or Shell Smash or DQM.
Why V-Create?
It's by far the strongest move in the metagame, with only the unfortunate side effect of lowering the speed and defenses of the user.
It's as strong as or stronger than many crystal-powered Z-moves, but doesn't require a crystal of its own, and has 8 pp. We banned CFZ's before, and they only had 1 PP, so it's like being able to use a CFZ 8 times at the cost of some stats which you can just switch out of to reset.
It hits all relevant Steel-types except Dialga super-effectively for ridiculous amounts of damage. There are other moves to hit steel types, such as precipice Blades, Close Combat or mind Blown, but even the strongest among these has 16% less power than V-Create (we will ignore that it's a special move for now).
With contrary, the negative of V-Create, lowering speed and defenses, suddenly becomes a positive, by increasing the speed of the Contrary mon to such levels that it becomes more and more difficult to revenge kill with Scarf users. V-Create boosting defenses also can allow it to survive priority moves that it otherwise wouldn't have. For example, a full health mega Rayquaza that has used V-Create one time can live the combination of Fake Out and Extreme Speed from Mega Diancie and win 1v1 if it happens to be running Superpower or Leaf Storm. No other move in the Contrary toolkit can let you outspeed scarfers AND protect you from priority at the same time.
There are still powerful Fire-type moves as alternatives such as Sacred Fire, Flair Blitz, Blue Flare, and Mind Blown, all of which have different ways to deal with them, and pros and cons to using them.
The biggest argument in favor of banning V-Create, imho, is the one about banning how it is analogous to banning CFZ moves. With comparable power, 8 times as many chances to use it, and the ability to be actually BOOSTED by an item, it's just crazy.
Arguments against a ban
It can be resisted. bulky waters like Slowbro-mega, bulky Dragons like Giratina and Zygarde-C, and Flash Fire can all keep it under control. In a vacuum this might be true, but team support can allow you to easily break through these.
It forces you out after use. Offensive teams are not big fans of the speed drop which lets a lot of mons outspeed the user that otherwise wouldn't, and force it out. That's a huge momentum drain on offensive teams especially. The speed drdop dissuades people from setting up and then sweeping through teams with it as well.
Stab users of the move are weak to Stealth Rock. Very true. Most of them can recover their hp in some way. Primal Groudon and mega Blazicon, arguably the two strongest V-Create users, only take neutral damage from rocks though, and Mega Diancie which often runs it as coverage, takes neutral damgae as well.
With V-create gone, we can bring back Primal Groudon. We can revenge kill enemies that use Contrary again either by priority or with scarfers. We don't have to worry about switching our Regenvest Solgaleo into Mega Diancie, and dying to V-Crate which does about 85%).
V-Create
Yes, V-Create. Not Simple or Contrary, or Shell Smash or DQM.
Why V-Create?
It's by far the strongest move in the metagame, with only the unfortunate side effect of lowering the speed and defenses of the user.
It's as strong as or stronger than many crystal-powered Z-moves, but doesn't require a crystal of its own, and has 8 pp. We banned CFZ's before, and they only had 1 PP, so it's like being able to use a CFZ 8 times at the cost of some stats which you can just switch out of to reset.
It hits all relevant Steel-types except Dialga super-effectively for ridiculous amounts of damage. There are other moves to hit steel types, such as precipice Blades, Close Combat or mind Blown, but even the strongest among these has 16% less power than V-Create (we will ignore that it's a special move for now).
With contrary, the negative of V-Create, lowering speed and defenses, suddenly becomes a positive, by increasing the speed of the Contrary mon to such levels that it becomes more and more difficult to revenge kill with Scarf users. V-Create boosting defenses also can allow it to survive priority moves that it otherwise wouldn't have. For example, a full health mega Rayquaza that has used V-Create one time can live the combination of Fake Out and Extreme Speed from Mega Diancie and win 1v1 if it happens to be running Superpower or Leaf Storm. No other move in the Contrary toolkit can let you outspeed scarfers AND protect you from priority at the same time.
There are still powerful Fire-type moves as alternatives such as Sacred Fire, Flair Blitz, Blue Flare, and Mind Blown, all of which have different ways to deal with them, and pros and cons to using them.
The biggest argument in favor of banning V-Create, imho, is the one about banning how it is analogous to banning CFZ moves. With comparable power, 8 times as many chances to use it, and the ability to be actually BOOSTED by an item, it's just crazy.
Arguments against a ban
It can be resisted. bulky waters like Slowbro-mega, bulky Dragons like Giratina and Zygarde-C, and Flash Fire can all keep it under control. In a vacuum this might be true, but team support can allow you to easily break through these.
It forces you out after use. Offensive teams are not big fans of the speed drop which lets a lot of mons outspeed the user that otherwise wouldn't, and force it out. That's a huge momentum drain on offensive teams especially. The speed drdop dissuades people from setting up and then sweeping through teams with it as well.
Stab users of the move are weak to Stealth Rock. Very true. Most of them can recover their hp in some way. Primal Groudon and mega Blazicon, arguably the two strongest V-Create users, only take neutral damage from rocks though, and Mega Diancie which often runs it as coverage, takes neutral damgae as well.
With V-create gone, we can bring back Primal Groudon. We can revenge kill enemies that use Contrary again either by priority or with scarfers. We don't have to worry about switching our Regenvest Solgaleo into Mega Diancie, and dying to V-Crate which does about 85%).
We have had this before. Vcreate isnt broken, its just very, very good.
Champion Leon
Banned deucer.
I agree, without Contrary, or some random Speed Boost user I see the diminishing return of losing Defenses and Speed. Yes, PDon can boost off of DLand, but PSea and Flash Fire can be used. Plus, PDon is slow already, and doesn’t like to always take a hit and wonder if V-Create will be blocked by a Surprise Flash Fire (Celeseteelia).
morogrim
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Out of the previous suspects, I'd say for me only the last 2 were the ones that weren't clear-cut and required a bit of thinking. In the case of Illusion, there are valid arguments that could be made both for and against banning. I'll go over the most important arguments and offer some counter arguments for each of them and leave the decision to the ones that have made the reqs.
The most valid arguments for Illusion being uncompetitive stem from a. Illusion being something you cannot expect from team preview (except in cases such as Kangaskhan) and b. even if you do expect Illusion there is no way to see it coming if the user plays correctly and c. In the case of Red Orb Groudon (and other Illusion users that are holding Mega Stones), Illusion serves an additional purpose (in the case of Red Orb don, this is the only purpose that Illusion serves since DesoLand and the message saying that the mon is undergoing Primal Reversion makes it quite obvious that Pdon is on the field) that is also pretty strong: completely Improofing the mon without the need of any team support (in this case, damage will not break the Illusion so Imposter can not work on it until the mon switches out), and finally, d. The player using Illusion can play mind games with the opponent by bringing in the Illusion mon disguised as an "opposite" wallbreaker. For example, the opponent could have a Pixilate Mega Diancie and an Illusion Mmx. If they bring in their Mmx disguised as Mega Diancie (or if they just bring in Mega Diancie), the opponent would be forced to go for a coinflip play (given that the opponent has no way of telling the 2 mons apart) which would imply that Illusion is uncompetitive. I will not be bringing up the Illusion-related bugs as valid arguments for banning the ability since the existence of the bug is not really something that would make the ability banworthy, it just means that PS has some bugs that need to be fixed. Now for the counter arguments:
a. This is a pretty good argument, however this argument also implies that Illusion is only broken in tournament settings and not the ladder since you can usually face the same opponent multiple times on ladder (especially in high ladder games where the number of players in that elo range are low) which means that you know what to expect the second time around. So now assuming that Illusion is uncompetitive only in a tournament setting, let's look at why or why not something that is unexpected from team preview could or couldn't be broken. First off, we have to acknowledge that Illusion, while on paper is not something you can "see," is still something you can anticipate/mark/play around. As already mentioned in other posts, if you see the opponent pivot out to bring in a "Giratina" against your Registeel, more often than not it's actually Mmx or a similar mon that can KO Registeel. Additionally, Illusion users are extremely susceptible to getting "marked," either by hazard damage (for example, if the "Giratina" takes 6% from Stealth Rocks), their HP (once an Illusion user gets marked, that same mark can be used to identify them until the end of the match; for example, you will know that the Illusion Mmx is at 94% HP so even if the hazard damage taken by the Illusion user makes sense, their HP might not), or any status inflicted on them (for example if you burn/para the Illusion user you will be able to track it for the rest of the match. Additionally, if the Illusion user comes into the field disguised as a mon you know should be statused, that would be another giveaway). So in conclusion, Illusion is not something that has 0 counterplay or something that any player could use effectively for that matter as there are many things the Illusion user has to take into account and play around in order to make it work. I will however also acknowledge that not every Giratina that comes in on your Registeel is an Illusion Mmx, and that if you make the scout play you will more often than not end up losing momentum. But then again we are discussing tournament play and honestly making safe plays such as this in a tournament setting is completely acceptable and even expected given that the players in these kinds of games are assumed to be competent.
b. This argument brings in an additional element to the table which is player competency: "If played correctly, Illusion would then be a broken ability." What this implies is that if the Illusion user plays in a way that their Illusion mon doesn't get marked or give anything away, they would then be able to claim the key KOs they need in order to win the match. This is valid to an extent, but there still are some weaknesses present in the argument. First off, there are some things that are out of the Illusion user's hands when it comes to the match. For example, the player cannot always play in a way that the last mon in the party is the one they want when they need to bring the Illusion user into the field. To explain this in a more detailed way, let's say the opponent has brought in their Registeel on your pivoting move. Naturally, this means that it's the perfect time to bring in the Illusion Mmx and get a free KO on the unsuspecting Registeel, but at the same time you realize that the last mon in your party is your PH Giratina which has already been revealed during the match. So if you decide to bring in your Mmx at this time disguised as a non-statused Giratina, your opponent will definitely know what is going on. This is obviously just an example as there could be many other scenarios that would result in the same problem in situations such as this.
c. This is a good point, however imo I feel like this aspect of Illusion, if looked at in a vacuum, is not broken at all. If all Illusion did was give the user a way to be completely improof until they switch out by forgoing an item slot (Mega Stone) and potentially the ideal ability (Mega forms do not necessarily have the optimal ability for that mon), I would say that it's definitely a fair trade. Often times we improof our own mons by doing similar things (forgoing item slots for plates, using less than optimal abilities such as Unburden, and the list goes on). So in conclusion, using the improof aspect of Illusion to justify the banworthiness of the unexpected aspect of the ability does not seem like a sound argument.
d. This is the only argument out of the 4 that successfully justifies Illusion being uncompetitive. However, I will mention as a side note that in order for the scenario mentioned in this argument to happen, the user still needs to overcome multiple obstacles: they need to keep the Illusion mon undetectable (by any method available to the opponent), make sure that the non-Illusion breaker is the last mon in the party when they want to bring in the Illusion user, and make sure they can repeat that process multiple times to increase their chances of the opponent finally making the incorrect coinflip play so that they could get their KO. In other words, while this argument is completely sound, it still isn't a risk-free thing. The player using Illusion still needs to play in a way to make sure that the opponent eventually slips up and guesses incorrectly. If at any point during the match the Illusion mon gets marked by any of the methods already mentioned, the Illusion user has pretty much lost their wincon (given that the opponent has an answer to both of the wallbreakers).
After going over the arguments, my personal conclusion is that if the ability even has a chance of being uncompetitive (case d), then it should be banned regardless of its success rate. Even if case d happens 1% of the time, regardless of whether the Illusion user won the match or not, Illusion was still an uncompetitive ability. For that reason I think that the ability should be banned.
The most valid arguments for Illusion being uncompetitive stem from a. Illusion being something you cannot expect from team preview (except in cases such as Kangaskhan) and b. even if you do expect Illusion there is no way to see it coming if the user plays correctly and c. In the case of Red Orb Groudon (and other Illusion users that are holding Mega Stones), Illusion serves an additional purpose (in the case of Red Orb don, this is the only purpose that Illusion serves since DesoLand and the message saying that the mon is undergoing Primal Reversion makes it quite obvious that Pdon is on the field) that is also pretty strong: completely Improofing the mon without the need of any team support (in this case, damage will not break the Illusion so Imposter can not work on it until the mon switches out), and finally, d. The player using Illusion can play mind games with the opponent by bringing in the Illusion mon disguised as an "opposite" wallbreaker. For example, the opponent could have a Pixilate Mega Diancie and an Illusion Mmx. If they bring in their Mmx disguised as Mega Diancie (or if they just bring in Mega Diancie), the opponent would be forced to go for a coinflip play (given that the opponent has no way of telling the 2 mons apart) which would imply that Illusion is uncompetitive. I will not be bringing up the Illusion-related bugs as valid arguments for banning the ability since the existence of the bug is not really something that would make the ability banworthy, it just means that PS has some bugs that need to be fixed. Now for the counter arguments:
a. This is a pretty good argument, however this argument also implies that Illusion is only broken in tournament settings and not the ladder since you can usually face the same opponent multiple times on ladder (especially in high ladder games where the number of players in that elo range are low) which means that you know what to expect the second time around. So now assuming that Illusion is uncompetitive only in a tournament setting, let's look at why or why not something that is unexpected from team preview could or couldn't be broken. First off, we have to acknowledge that Illusion, while on paper is not something you can "see," is still something you can anticipate/mark/play around. As already mentioned in other posts, if you see the opponent pivot out to bring in a "Giratina" against your Registeel, more often than not it's actually Mmx or a similar mon that can KO Registeel. Additionally, Illusion users are extremely susceptible to getting "marked," either by hazard damage (for example, if the "Giratina" takes 6% from Stealth Rocks), their HP (once an Illusion user gets marked, that same mark can be used to identify them until the end of the match; for example, you will know that the Illusion Mmx is at 94% HP so even if the hazard damage taken by the Illusion user makes sense, their HP might not), or any status inflicted on them (for example if you burn/para the Illusion user you will be able to track it for the rest of the match. Additionally, if the Illusion user comes into the field disguised as a mon you know should be statused, that would be another giveaway). So in conclusion, Illusion is not something that has 0 counterplay or something that any player could use effectively for that matter as there are many things the Illusion user has to take into account and play around in order to make it work. I will however also acknowledge that not every Giratina that comes in on your Registeel is an Illusion Mmx, and that if you make the scout play you will more often than not end up losing momentum. But then again we are discussing tournament play and honestly making safe plays such as this in a tournament setting is completely acceptable and even expected given that the players in these kinds of games are assumed to be competent.
b. This argument brings in an additional element to the table which is player competency: "If played correctly, Illusion would then be a broken ability." What this implies is that if the Illusion user plays in a way that their Illusion mon doesn't get marked or give anything away, they would then be able to claim the key KOs they need in order to win the match. This is valid to an extent, but there still are some weaknesses present in the argument. First off, there are some things that are out of the Illusion user's hands when it comes to the match. For example, the player cannot always play in a way that the last mon in the party is the one they want when they need to bring the Illusion user into the field. To explain this in a more detailed way, let's say the opponent has brought in their Registeel on your pivoting move. Naturally, this means that it's the perfect time to bring in the Illusion Mmx and get a free KO on the unsuspecting Registeel, but at the same time you realize that the last mon in your party is your PH Giratina which has already been revealed during the match. So if you decide to bring in your Mmx at this time disguised as a non-statused Giratina, your opponent will definitely know what is going on. This is obviously just an example as there could be many other scenarios that would result in the same problem in situations such as this.
c. This is a good point, however imo I feel like this aspect of Illusion, if looked at in a vacuum, is not broken at all. If all Illusion did was give the user a way to be completely improof until they switch out by forgoing an item slot (Mega Stone) and potentially the ideal ability (Mega forms do not necessarily have the optimal ability for that mon), I would say that it's definitely a fair trade. Often times we improof our own mons by doing similar things (forgoing item slots for plates, using less than optimal abilities such as Unburden, and the list goes on). So in conclusion, using the improof aspect of Illusion to justify the banworthiness of the unexpected aspect of the ability does not seem like a sound argument.
d. This is the only argument out of the 4 that successfully justifies Illusion being uncompetitive. However, I will mention as a side note that in order for the scenario mentioned in this argument to happen, the user still needs to overcome multiple obstacles: they need to keep the Illusion mon undetectable (by any method available to the opponent), make sure that the non-Illusion breaker is the last mon in the party when they want to bring in the Illusion user, and make sure they can repeat that process multiple times to increase their chances of the opponent finally making the incorrect coinflip play so that they could get their KO. In other words, while this argument is completely sound, it still isn't a risk-free thing. The player using Illusion still needs to play in a way to make sure that the opponent eventually slips up and guesses incorrectly. If at any point during the match the Illusion mon gets marked by any of the methods already mentioned, the Illusion user has pretty much lost their wincon (given that the opponent has an answer to both of the wallbreakers).
After going over the arguments, my personal conclusion is that if the ability even has a chance of being uncompetitive (case d), then it should be banned regardless of its success rate. Even if case d happens 1% of the time, regardless of whether the Illusion user won the match or not, Illusion was still an uncompetitive ability. For that reason I think that the ability should be banned.
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The Suspect on Illusion has concluded with the decision to ban
History:
History:
So one guy who posted DNB in the voter ID thread decided not to actually vote and it is banned by one vote. Neat stuff.
Abstain all the time come to the majority like politics
This is my first time trying to ask for a suspect so I don't know how things go usually but I will try.
I may get some slack for suggesting this but
Suspect chansey.
Imposter won't get a ban as it is totally fair and a good check to the large amounts of set up sweepers in BH
I agree with that.
Chansey itself however I feel gives an unfair buff to an already powerful ability.
Blissey could be a fairer alternative imposter user as i feel without the boost from eviolite it is much fairer.
In a nutshell
Chansey copies any pokemon it comes in on ,unless it has a substitute up,with the powerful buff of 250 base hp and 1.5X both defences.
Set
Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Transform
- Soft-Boiled
- Refresh
- Seismic Toss
moves don't matter too much as imposter will activate 90% of the time.
Refresh is to remove any unwanted status and seismic toss is to break subs to potentially get a transform up
Strategy
swap in on a set up sweeper to steal their boosts and tank most hits they throw at you due to the 250 base hp and 1.5x defences.
counters and checks
With the ban of illusion there are only 2, held item gimmicks and substitute.
Gengar-Mega @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Secret Sword
- Quiver Dance
- Recover
Held item gimmicks like plates and safety goggles work well until you realise that chansey can just swap out. These sets often forgo coverage to make sure that imposter cannot affect you. This allows chanseys team mates to deal with the individual pokemon easier as it is less flexable in what it can use in its moveset.
example unaware users such as audio mega and zygarde complete can easily come in on this gengar and completely shut it down.
With unaware
+2 252+ SpA Gengar-Mega Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Audino-Mega: 77-91 (18.7 - 22.1%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 252+ SpA Spooky Plate Gengar-Mega Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Zygarde-Complete: 196-232 (30.8 - 36.4%) -- 62.8% chance to 3HKO
audio mega can even beat gengar without unaware and this is assuming the gengar is running simple.
+2 252+ SpA Gengar-Mega Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino-Mega: 153-180 (37.3 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
on the second turn you can prankster spore or heart swap or topsy tervy the gengar to shut it down as it cannot run safety goggles and needs simple or many other pokemon would wall it.
Substitute is a good check but in such an power heavy meta subs can often be broken without much effort.
Walls often carrying spectral thief (sometimes with normalize) ,which steals boosts through subs, such as the common walls and tanks audio mega , zygarde complete and registeel.
Sound moves such as
prankster taunt, or no guard sing/ grass whistle make sub users easy prey.
Boomburst-ate users can ignore your subs such as aerialate m-ray.
Infiltrator is not that viable but is an option too.
And if they ever do break your sub chansey can come in next turn and counter sweep stealing all your boosts.
even if you are not using boosts you have to forgo one of your move slots to put in substitute reducing your coverage and effectiveness.
Conclusion
with the ban of illusion we lost one of the better checks to imposter making it a much stronger ability.
i'm not asking for a imposter suspect but a chansey suspect as it makes a strong ability too powerful.
you could suspect eviolite but thats a whole item not just one pokemon.
I may get some slack for suggesting this but
Suspect chansey.
Imposter won't get a ban as it is totally fair and a good check to the large amounts of set up sweepers in BH
I agree with that.
Chansey itself however I feel gives an unfair buff to an already powerful ability.
Blissey could be a fairer alternative imposter user as i feel without the boost from eviolite it is much fairer.
In a nutshell
Chansey copies any pokemon it comes in on ,unless it has a substitute up,with the powerful buff of 250 base hp and 1.5X both defences.
Set
Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Transform
- Soft-Boiled
- Refresh
- Seismic Toss
moves don't matter too much as imposter will activate 90% of the time.
Refresh is to remove any unwanted status and seismic toss is to break subs to potentially get a transform up
Strategy
swap in on a set up sweeper to steal their boosts and tank most hits they throw at you due to the 250 base hp and 1.5x defences.
counters and checks
With the ban of illusion there are only 2, held item gimmicks and substitute.
Gengar-Mega @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Secret Sword
- Quiver Dance
- Recover
Held item gimmicks like plates and safety goggles work well until you realise that chansey can just swap out. These sets often forgo coverage to make sure that imposter cannot affect you. This allows chanseys team mates to deal with the individual pokemon easier as it is less flexable in what it can use in its moveset.
example unaware users such as audio mega and zygarde complete can easily come in on this gengar and completely shut it down.
With unaware
+2 252+ SpA Gengar-Mega Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Audino-Mega: 77-91 (18.7 - 22.1%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 252+ SpA Spooky Plate Gengar-Mega Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Zygarde-Complete: 196-232 (30.8 - 36.4%) -- 62.8% chance to 3HKO
audio mega can even beat gengar without unaware and this is assuming the gengar is running simple.
+2 252+ SpA Gengar-Mega Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino-Mega: 153-180 (37.3 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
on the second turn you can prankster spore or heart swap or topsy tervy the gengar to shut it down as it cannot run safety goggles and needs simple or many other pokemon would wall it.
Substitute is a good check but in such an power heavy meta subs can often be broken without much effort.
Walls often carrying spectral thief (sometimes with normalize) ,which steals boosts through subs, such as the common walls and tanks audio mega , zygarde complete and registeel.
Sound moves such as
prankster taunt, or no guard sing/ grass whistle make sub users easy prey.
Boomburst-ate users can ignore your subs such as aerialate m-ray.
Infiltrator is not that viable but is an option too.
And if they ever do break your sub chansey can come in next turn and counter sweep stealing all your boosts.
even if you are not using boosts you have to forgo one of your move slots to put in substitute reducing your coverage and effectiveness.
Conclusion
with the ban of illusion we lost one of the better checks to imposter making it a much stronger ability.
i'm not asking for a imposter suspect but a chansey suspect as it makes a strong ability too powerful.
you could suspect eviolite but thats a whole item not just one pokemon.
Storm Eagle
Banned deucer.
If I'm going to be honest with you I don't think the Illusion ban had a terribly big effect on Imposter's viability. The only major thing is that I believe Mega Kangaskhan has gotten much harder to improof. If anything, sets that used to be self-improof are no longer self-improof like Red Orb Shell Smash Groudon. I don't feel like Illusion has had a large enough presence in the meta to affect Imposter in any significant way.
I also disagree with a Chansey ban as I believe Chansey has more use than just Imposter and that's because it's the best special wall in the entirety of Pokemon. Banning Chansey would just end up making Pokemon like Mega Rayquaza and Mega Mewtwo Y stronger as they have one less check. Fur Coat Chansey is extremely strong in it's own right and not banworthy.
I also disagree with a Chansey ban as I believe Chansey has more use than just Imposter and that's because it's the best special wall in the entirety of Pokemon. Banning Chansey would just end up making Pokemon like Mega Rayquaza and Mega Mewtwo Y stronger as they have one less check. Fur Coat Chansey is extremely strong in it's own right and not banworthy.
pazza
Banned deucer.
Hi! Good post. I like most of your arguments but I don't think Chansey nor Imposter because
Anyway do not be discouraged of what I said.
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Storm eagle and pazza
would you ban eviolite then?
i dont think blissey is overpowered when using imposter i just feel the 1.5x defences are a bit too much with the limited counters that are reliable
Storm Eagle
Banned deucer.
I still don't agree on an Eviolite ban solely because it harms defensive Chansey sets. Trying to get rid of Imposter Chansey is only going to get rid of other viable sets. Eviolite isn't banworthy solely because of one set, and Eviolite doesn't really fall under the Ban Guidelines. I will admit that Chansey is the only relevant Eviolite user, however.
Pazza is right in that Imposter is only as strong as you enable it to be. Sadly checking Imposter may come at the cost of reduced pivoting, but you can prevent Imposter from gaining an edge otherwise.
Pazza is right in that Imposter is only as strong as you enable it to be. Sadly checking Imposter may come at the cost of reduced pivoting, but you can prevent Imposter from gaining an edge otherwise.
this isn't really a valid argument, because "collateral damage" isn't relevant to whether or not something is actually banworthy. for instance, i think most people would agree that illusion on red orb groudon wasn't broken and was a healthy addition to the metagame, but we still banned it because illusion was broken.
the argument on whether or not eviolite imposter chansey is banworthy is interesting. i think we can all agree that a mon with 1000 base hp (2204 hp, almost four times as bulky as zygarde if transformed into it) would be broken with imposter. it would unfairly shut down mons like mmy for the entire game unless they ran weird counterplay. so that begs the question: how much is too much?
it's true that eviolite chansey is very hard to ohko. only mons with high power to bulk ratios and 4x or stab weaknesses can try to pull it off, and even then they probably need a choice item unless you're using deo a.
however, chansey can't just indefinitely switch in against breakers. it gets punished harshly by mons like cb mmx or specs ray without too much prediction. it doesn't have its own boosting item, so it will often find itself 2hkod but unable to ohko in return.
most of us here think that imposter chansey isn't broken, but there's a case to be made for the other side.
A Pokemon ban should only be done if A) the Pokemon is overwhelming in general on all of its viable sets (Primal Groudon) or B) the Pokemon's primary set(s) are so grossly powerful it dominates the meta, even though the sets it runs are perfectly fine otherwise on other Pokemon (Gen VI Primal Kyogre).
Chansey doesn't qualify. It's non-Imposter sets are good, but not overwhelmingly so. And as good as Eviolite is, being shackled to it gives it significant vulnerabilities, such as to Spore. (Barring the stray Magic Bounce set). Meanwhile, Imposter is strong and imposes significant team building pressure, but can be controlled before a battle even starts. Chansey being shackled to Eviolite 99% of the time also makes it vulnerable to some anti-Imposter sets, like min-bulk Focus Sash Deo-A, Quick Feet sets, Unburden sets, Scarf sets, Poison Heal sets, Judgement sets, Shed Shell trap sets, and so forth. Imposter can switch items to counter these strategies, but it can't counter them all and it makes it worse against everything else.
Chansey doesn't qualify. It's non-Imposter sets are good, but not overwhelmingly so. And as good as Eviolite is, being shackled to it gives it significant vulnerabilities, such as to Spore. (Barring the stray Magic Bounce set). Meanwhile, Imposter is strong and imposes significant team building pressure, but can be controlled before a battle even starts. Chansey being shackled to Eviolite 99% of the time also makes it vulnerable to some anti-Imposter sets, like min-bulk Focus Sash Deo-A, Quick Feet sets, Unburden sets, Scarf sets, Poison Heal sets, Judgement sets, Shed Shell trap sets, and so forth. Imposter can switch items to counter these strategies, but it can't counter them all and it makes it worse against everything else.
Storm Eagle
Banned deucer.
While I agree, Smogon's banning policy does call for minimal bans when possible. And Eviolite Imposter Chansey simply isn't going to get a complex ban of any sort either.
Except there isn't a mon with 1000 base HP. Chansey only goes up to 250 base and 704 stat-wise. I'm not sure what you are talking about here.
Chansey got stronger with unlimited EVs. Without unlimited EVs Chansey was significantly weaker than it is now. Sadly unless you're running Shedinja or Deoxys-Attack, no one ever cares to run sets without Defense and Special Defense EVs or even IVs. There are still abilities that exist to circumvent Chansey such as Poison Heal, Unburden, in niche cases Dazzling, and Soundproof. There are also items and moves such as Judgment, Z-Moves (in cases like Soundproof), and Multi-Attack, for example. There are probably more but I can't remember off-hand.
This is true. I only say that I disagree. No opinion is incorrect.
wheres the dislike button.
I swear every suspect results in a ban. Will this bring a "healthier" meta? it gets unbalanced and stallier each time, but people who no longer play the meta must decide its fate huh.
Storm Eagle
Banned deucer.
If they didn't play the meta they wouldn't have gotten reqs. You know. Because you have to play the meta to get reqs. While I'll say that Illusion was more of a problem in a tour setting than on ladder, I do want to say that Illusion is no weaker on ladder than it is in tours.
I voted Ban because I do in fact believe this will bring a healthier meta. And no, Illusion will not make the meta more unbalanced or stallier. If anything, it makes Imposter a little bit stronger. Stall teams still struggle with Mega Kangaskhan regardless of Illusion. In fact Mega Kangaskhan might be stronger against Stall teams now because it can run Intimidate or Misty Surge.
pazza
Banned deucer.
you don't need to be able to play the meta to get reqs
just ask people for a good team and be generally ok at mons and you can get them easy
bh has been banning things that make stall even more better but illusion is one of them if used correctly
Everything you said about what will happen will contribute to the metting being stallier. More unbalanced, I don't really know, Defensive teams are really really strong at the high level, though they do require a lot of stamina to play because the pilot has to dig in and stay patient through the entire process, and even two missteps can turn a win with patience into a loss.
You said, no, Illusion will not make the meta more unbalanced or stallier. If anything, it makes Imposter a little bit stronger." Making imposter stronger/more effective will encourage people to use it more which will, in turn, make the meta stallier, thus your statement makes 0 sense at all. The longest battles consist of both players having imposter slowly trying to PP stall out the other one, and it takes twice as long since the imposter isn't really using PP. If a 200 or 300 turn battle isn't stally, I don't know what is. Any person who has played the meta knows this.
You say, "Stall teams still struggle with Mega Kangaskhan regardless of Illusion. In fact Mega Kangaskhan might be stronger against Stall teams now because it can run Intimidate or Misty Surge." This is another statement where the evidence actually helps disprove it. Since Kangaskan gets all its utility from parental bond Nature's Madness, it must mega evolve immediately, meaning it should only really be using its pre-mega ability one time. First of all, Illusion was by far the best ability for mega kang against any team, including stall, as it could disguise itself as something else, bring that check in and chop off 75%. Now there is no illusion tricks going on, so you can figure out what your least important mon is, and use it as a more consistent check.
And +1 to Dark Rising Ray!
Storm Eagle
Banned deucer.
I completely disagree. Just having a good team will only get you so far. Unless you know exactly what sets are run on what Pokemon, you'll never be able to beat players past the 1500s as those are decent players with decent teams who tend to know the meta better than you do.
I know Balanced Hackmons tends to attract a lot of low quality players, but to suggest that 'anyone can get reqs without knowing the meta' is completely asinine. That applies to absolutely no Showdown ladders at all. I guarantee you that if I stole a PU team and decided to play for a few days straight that I would not be able to participate in the Kingler suspect test. Why? Because I don't know the PU meta. You can not learn the meta in the span of a few days. Not a few days. Not a few weeks. Not even a few months.
You mean make stall worse? Because I highly doubt Water Bubble, Stakeout, or Psychic Surge makes stall better by any means. In fact I'd argue they do nothing short of make stall completely unviable. And Morogrim and Semako, both stall players, voted Ban, so your argument falls apart right there.
If you really have that big of a problem with Imposter to the point of where you end up in a stall war, then that is due to a structural flaw in your (and perhaps your opponent's) team. Running trapping moves on passive Pokemon can allow you to reduce the effectiveness of Imposter. If Imposter can't heal on your offensive Pokemon and can't heal because your defensive Pokemon will trap it, it'll eventually die.
I will not deny that Imposter is extremely strong in it's own right. In fact I somewhat agree that Imposter may have too much bulk (referenced earlier), but I don't think it's bad enough to be banworthy.
Mega Kangaskhan was a borderline overpowered wallbreaker before Illusion was banned. And 'sacking x mon' does not constitute checking Mega Kangaskhan. If you knocked something out then you've already done something good for your team, unless something like Prankster Destiny Bond happens, which then you've also gotten a nice win because your setup sweepers have one less check at that point. With the exception of Shed Stall, most Stall that I've seen heavily relies on inflicting status so Misty Surge does have a benefit.
Also, Red Orb Groudon uses Misty Surge too and that ability is one-time use. Don't act like Misty Surge Mega Kangaskhan is a theorymon set when there's precedent for it.
this doesn't make any sense. your "least important mon" is still going to get 2hkod by big kanga unless you have like prankster or shed (both of which lose to spikes).
also i'd argue that while illusion ban made imposter better, it didn't increase its use. imposter still only fills a specific niche in teambuilding. if imposter was bad on a team before illusion ban, it won't suddenly be good after the ban.
the bh and pu (or "main tier") ladders are really different. something important is that while pu and all the tiers above it have constantly shifting metagames as people discover new sets, the bh ladder usually stays the same except when new games come out.
also, in bh there are lots of ways to win on team preview against people with bad teams, like imposter, prankster haze, sweepers, etc. it's easy to get reqs if you don't make obvious misplays like hard switching imposter into gengar. that being said, the ban side has more established (and active) players supporting it, so thermp's argument doesn't hold up very well there.
he meant that banning the things makes stall better. stall sucked when water bubble was a thing, now it doesn't.
this is theorymon. if this mon did exist in this meta, it would (probably) be broken with imposter.
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