As a massive fan of BW, I feel that some parts of this list (and this thread lol) are a bit off.
As you can see in that image, those are general good teams from BW, all of which I collected from a thread elsewhere (can't remember the exact website). Each team is from a different user, and you'll notice a lot of different trends (in case you are curious, each team is ordered by when you get each Pokemon). Based on that image, there are quite a few things that the thread gets right. Archeops at S rank is definitely a correct choice. Nearly all of those teams have Archeops, for very obvious reasons. However, one S rank that I am a bit confused about is Darmanitan.
To talk about Darmanitan a bit, I think it is definitely being overrated by a ton. I think most people enjoy it because of its early access, as well as having really good stats for that point of the game, but really, there are a lot of flaws to Darumaka and Darmanitan. Darumaka evolves at level 35, which seems like it isn't that bad of an evolution level, but remember where you get this Pokemon in the game: Desert Resort. At this point in the game, your Pokemon are going to be somewhere in the level 22-24 range. By the time you get to the 35 range, you'll probably be a bit after Skyla. This means that these shiny stats, which are good for the point of the game in which Darumaka is found, slowly wears off overtime, and won't pay off until you get to Brycen, which I suppose is good timing.
Speaking of Brycen, that is the only gym Darmanitan has a truly good match up in. Elesa will definitely cause trouble for Darumaka due to all the Volt Switch pivoting, especially since Darumaka is slow and not the bulkiest Pokemon in the world. Clay has Palpitoad, and Krokorok and Excadrill are more than likely going to be faster. Once you get to Skyla, your stats don't really mean much, and Swanna, as well as her other Pokemon (although mostly Swanna) are going to give Darumaka a run for its money. It isn't until you get to Brycen that Darmanitan is going to do something, and then you hit a Dragon-type gym right after, which Darmanitan is fairly useless in.
Perhaps this wouldn't matter too much if Darumaka got some good coverage. However, it generally only gets Fire- and Normal-type moves, with Rollout being the only exception early on. It isn't until level 35 (when Darumaka evolves) that it gets Hammer Arm, a move that lowers your Speed. at level 47 rather (39 for Darumaka), you can also pick up Superpower, another coverage move with some massive negatives. There are quite a few TMs you can teach them like Bulldoze, so it does make up for the struggle a bit (for Bulldoze in particular, Darmanitan won't use it for any super effective coverage in any major way, especially since he tears through Chargestone Cave regardless).
I guess Darmanitan's best positive for the late game is its incredible stats. It has a huge Attack stat, and fairly decent Speed as well. However, what it has in those fields, it lacks in bulk. Darmanitan runs the risk of dying to a lot of attacks, and will probably not be able to take any super effective hit. This means that Darmanitan either has to OHKO the opposing Pokemon before taking a heavy hit, or it might as well just die. It doesn't help that its best move has recoil damage either. If you choose not to run Flare Blitz, you'll be rocking out with Fire Punch as a STAB move, which certainly won't be OHKOing anything. It is great that Darmanitan is decently fast, because otherwise, it wouldn't be as effective as it is.
This isn't to say Darmanitan isn't a good Pokemon to use in this game, that is. Being strong is obviously a crazy good thing, and will tear through a lot of teams. The early availability of Darumaka is also extremely helpful, giving you another relatively strong Pokemon right after the third gym. However, as discussed, that strength wears off until just after the 6th gym. There are other things I could talk about as well, such as choosing either to pick up Darumaka and leave Pokemon like Sandile and Archen, or choosing those Pokemon together and having to suffer the consequences of adding two or three Pokemon to your team at once. That is a point that is really team dependent though. Overall, I think Darumaka is still a great pickup for this game, but I don't think it is S rank worthy.
I think it is great that Joltik was included in A rank, but I definitely think that it should move up to S rank. One of the main reasons why so many people use Joltik and Galvantula in their Black & White runs is that it is really the best Electric-type. Zebstrika and Emolga are piss weak and lack necessary coverage. While it is found a bit after the 5th gym, I don't see how availability is ever an issue in this way. If a Pokemon is found in the late game, I definitely don't think that should affect their rank, considering you don't get six Pokemon right off the bat. Pokemon is designed to plan your team out widespread, rather than filling your team before half way through the game. Most people go with that route (not saying that is the wrong way to play the game, but it isn't the way it was intended to be done) and end up not being able to pick up some cooler late game Pokemon like Druddigon and Pawniard. On top of that, most people still have room for Galvantula by the time they get to that point of the game, especially shown in the picture of teams above.
Since someone is going to bring up Galvantula vs. Eelektross, let's talk about that. Both Pokemon get some nice coverage, although Eelektross probably succeeds on that front. It also succeeds on the damage front as well, carrying a much higher Special Attack stat. However, what makes Galvantula so much better than Eelektross is Galvantula's Speed. Galvantula is extremely fast. This allows Galvantula to be on the weaker side, as it can simply just 2HKO through out speeds. Galvantula also has some good utility moves as well, including Thunder Wave and Electro Web. That's really what I think makes Galvantula better than Eelektross, I guess it is more team dependent if anything, but I think most people want a Pokemon like Galvantula, especially in a casual setting, when most people want fast-paced game play.
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Those aren't the only issues I have with this tier list, but these are my thoughts at a first glance. I might make another post at some point this week, but we'll see how this plays out.
I want to say before talking about these that this is a great post overall. However, I'm going to make my opinion known. I have soloed the game with Darumaka with only 2 whiteouts and used it in other runs, so I have plenty of experience with it. I have used Joltik slightly less, but still have experience with it.
To talk about Darmanitan a bit, I think it is definitely being overrated by a ton. I think most people enjoy it because of its early access, as well as having really good stats for that point of the game, but really, there are a lot of flaws to Darumaka and Darmanitan. Darumaka evolves at level 35, which seems like it isn't that bad of an evolution level, but remember where you get this Pokemon in the game: Desert Resort. At this point in the game, your Pokemon are going to be somewhere in the level 22-24 range.
What does this prove? Scrafty reaches Scrafty at level 39. Archen reaches Archeops at level 37. Of the four S tiers, only Drilbur (which has the most rough time getting off the ground imo) reaches earlier than Darumaka at level 31. Speaking of Drilbur, Darumaka actually has marginally higher bulk than Drilbur, and 5 points higher in Attack. What Scraggy falls behind in stats, it more than makes up for in moves. You can even catch one at level 20 in the inner Desert Resort ready to go with Brick Break, though it misses out on a couple rival fights. And Scraggy sweeps Clay, Brycen, likely Drayden, Shauntal, Caitlin (save Sigilyph), and N and Ghetsis if you are smart. Archen is unquestionably best in both stats and matchups.
By the time you get to the 35 range, you'll probably be a bit after Skyla. This means that these shiny stats, which are good for the point of the game in which Darumaka is found, slowly wears off overtime, and won't pay off until you get to Brycen, which I suppose is good timing.
This is untrue. Most have been about level 36-38 around here. Skyla's ace is 35, and Darmanitan can easily tank through Swoobat and Unfezant.
With a six mon team, it's still doable if you prepare in advance.
Perhaps this wouldn't matter too much if Darumaka got some good coverage. However, it generally only gets Fire- and Normal-type moves, with Rollout being the only exception early on. It isn't until level 35 (when Darumaka evolves) that it gets Hammer Arm, a move that lowers your Speed. at level 47 rather (39 for Darumaka), you can also pick up Superpower, another coverage move with some massive negatives. There are quite a few TMs you can teach them like Bulldoze, so it does make up for the struggle a bit (for Bulldoze in particular, Darmanitan won't use it for any super effective coverage in any major way, especially since he tears through Chargestone Cave regardless).
Darumaka can be equipped with Dig and Rock Tomb almost immediately, with Rock Slide and Brick Break later. What do you mean it doesn't get good coverage?
Of all the bosses, here's what resists Fire STAB:
Rivals: Monkey and starter depending on team choices.
Burgh: Dwebble
N 3: None.
Elesa: None. You can probably kill Zebstrika if you make it the last mon standing if you have Eviolite.
Clay: Palpitoad, but this is a matchup you probably shouldn't partake in.
N 4: Boldore (and it rips the others apart)
Skyla: Swanna
Brycen: None
Drayden/Iris: All. Though you can probably sweep this too. Belly Drum while they DD.
Shauntal: Jellicent
Grimsley: None
Caitlin: None
Marshall: None.
N Final: Both dragons, Archeops, and Carracosta. You still rip through half the team, and you can smash Carracosta with a Fighting move.
Ghetsis: Hydreigon, Seismitoad
On average, you kill two mons a team at least.
I guess Darmanitan's best positive for the late game is its incredible stats. It has a huge Attack stat, and fairly decent Speed as well. However, what it has in those fields, it lacks in bulk. Darmanitan runs the risk of dying to a lot of attacks, and will probably not be able to take any super effective hit. This means that Darmanitan either has to OHKO the opposing Pokemon before taking a heavy hit, or it might as well just die. It doesn't help that its best move has recoil damage either. If you choose not to run Flare Blitz, you'll be rocking out with Fire Punch as a STAB move, which certainly won't be OHKOing anything. It is great that Darmanitan is decently fast, because otherwise, it wouldn't be as effective as it is.
Uh, it's not quite as frail as you make it out to be. You have 105 HP as Darmanitan, which is enough to take a hit, though 55 defenses aren't optimal.
It doesn't help that its best move has recoil damage either. If you choose not to run Flare Blitz, you'll be rocking out with Fire Punch as a STAB move, which certainly won't be OHKOing anything. It is great that Darmanitan is decently fast, because otherwise, it wouldn't be as effective as it is.
Fire Punch as a STAB move is OHKOing a lot of things. Even as Darumaka:
75 power*1.5=112.5*1.5=112.5+33.75=168.75 damage.
As Darmanitan:
75 power*1.5=112.5*0.30=112.5+33.75=146.25 damage.
Note I'm not the best with damage calcs, but seriously. Only Scrafty HJK, Archeops Acrobatics, or Excadrill EQ is this strong.
And Flare Blitz obviously destroys everything. 3 uses per major battle doesn't really matter when Fire Punch laughs at most, and most leaders have 3 mons. Let's not forget Darmanitan doesn't really have to setup.
This isn't to say Darmanitan isn't a good Pokemon to use in this game, that is. Being strong is obviously a crazy good thing, and will tear through a lot of teams. The early availability of Darumaka is also extremely helpful, giving you another relatively strong Pokemon right after the third gym. However, as discussed, that strength wears off until just after the 6th gym. There are other things I could talk about as well, such as choosing either to pick up Darumaka and leave Pokemon like Sandile and Archen, or choosing those Pokemon together and having to suffer the consequences of adding two or three Pokemon to your team at once. That is a point that is really team dependent though. Overall, I think Darumaka is still a great pickup for this game, but I don't think it is S rank worthy.
Um, you get it pre-Burgh, actually. It's not even that bad of a walk, and you can pick up Amulet Coin and Eviolite on the way, both helpful.
How does base 90 Attack wear off? Only Archen overpowers it. Add in the fact most don't reach final form until mid 30s and nothing really compares to it's power aside from Sigilyph or Sawk (both A tiers).
There are other things I could talk about as well, such as choosing either to pick up Darumaka and leave Pokemon like Sandile and Archen, or choosing those Pokemon together and having to suffer the consequences of adding two or three Pokemon to your team at once. That is a point that is really team dependent though. Overall, I think Darumaka is still a great pickup for this game, but I don't think it is S rank worthy.
Objection, Your Honor, relevance? We are not considering opportunity cost unless it is something like a starter or a fossil.
I think it is great that Joltik was included in A rank, but I definitely think that it should move up to S rank. One of the main reasons why so many people use Joltik and Galvantula in their Black & White runs is that it is really the best Electric-type. Zebstrika and Emolga are piss weak and lack necessary coverage. While it is found a bit after the 5th gym, I don't see how availability is ever an issue in this way. If a Pokemon is found in the late game, I definitely don't think that should affect their rank, considering you don't get six Pokemon right off the bat. Pokemon is designed to plan your team out widespread, rather than filling your team before half way through the game. Most people go with that route (not saying that is the wrong way to play the game, but it isn't the way it was intended to be done) and end up not being able to pick up some cooler late game Pokemon like Druddigon and Pawniard. On top of that, most people still have room for Galvantula by the time they get to that point of the game, especially shown in the picture of teams above.
S tier? Are you for real?
Look, I'm not trying to discredit your opinion, but it has been established repeatedly that Joltik is an A. Personally, I even have issues with A, because while Compound Eyes Thunder is great, you don't get the option until Iccirus. Sure, you have Skyla but any mon with an attack smashes Skyla so it's not an accomplishment. It's also not as good in matchups as it seems on paper.
Let's not forget Bug STAB (the one that matters more in endgame) will be Signal Beam as it gets Bug Buzz at 60, which is by and large never happening before postgame. 75 power is good, but Galvantula doesn't have the stats to really use it without issue. 97 Sp. Atk is serviceable with Thunder, but I can definitely see it missing OHKOs in the E4 with Signal Beam.
Skyla is easy, but I never see you sweeping Brycen. Cryogonal has the bulk to live Thunder, and there's a decent chance it may be faster (105 vs. 108 Speed isn't super guaranteed depending on level). I also doubt you OHKO Beartic, who has Rock Slide to laugh at you.
What is it doing versus Drayden again? Signal Beam? His mons are bulky enough to live it-I doubt you sweep here.
Rivals are fine save for Simisear and Emboar, though I doubt you OHKO Musharna. Stoutland probably lives and hits you hard. Cheren is a joke really so he's not notable.
League time.
Shauntal: Uh, I doubt it beats anything besides Jellicent. You can Thunder things but there's a decent chance Cursed Body may disable it. I also doubt you OHKO anything, as 97 Special Attack falls a little here.
Grimsley: You can maybe sweep here, but it's shaky. Scrafty lives and fires back with Crunch, Liepard uses Fake Out, and Bisharp can probably live a Thunder (65/70 bulk makes it possible to survive, albeit unlikely, especially if underleveled).
Caitlin: Her mons are too bulky to kill with Signal Beam. All will fire back with STAB Psychic. You'll be lucky to kill two.
Marshall: Too bulky and Stone Edge everywhere.
N: Dragon is bad, Carracosta lives and one-shots back, Archeops likely outspeeds and OHKOs, Zoroark might outspeed and Flamethrower...Vanilluxe and Klinklang are neutral.
Ghetsis: Yeah, I don't see Galvantula doing much at all here. You aren't outspeeding Hydreigon nor one-shotting it, my Stoutland of 120 Speed failed to outspeed, and Hydreigon's 92/90/90 bulk can take a hit fine. At best you hit something hard then die.
Since someone is going to bring up Galvantula vs. Eelektross, let's talk about that. Both Pokemon get some nice coverage, although Eelektross probably succeeds on that front. It also succeeds on the damage front as well, carrying a much higher Special Attack stat. However, what makes Galvantula so much better than Eelektross is Galvantula's Speed. Galvantula is extremely fast. This allows Galvantula to be on the weaker side, as it can simply just 2HKO through out speeds. Galvantula also has some good utility moves as well, including Thunder Wave and Electro Web. That's really what I think makes Galvantula better than Eelektross, I guess it is more team dependent if anything, but I think most people want a Pokemon like Galvantula, especially in a casual setting, when most people want fast-paced game play.
Eelektross is awful, and nobody should use it. Look at Tynamo's stats:
HP: 35
Attack: 55
Defense: 40
Sp. Atk: 45
Sp. Def: 40
Speed: 60
This is what you have to put up with for 12 levels, and you still have to find the thing in the first place. This is not anywhere near the best Electric, and no matter the coverage or lack of weaknesses, Eelektross is slow and overhyped. At best it's D tier, simply because Tynamo is gutter trash and Eelektross doesn't roll over E4 like it should for all the effort invested.
Electroweb and T-Wave? Why would I use these on a frail mon when I could be using Thunder? Most mons you'll outspeed.
Joltik and Galvantula are not S tier. If they are, then Axew should be S tier instantly, because it dumpsters endgame.
By all means, great post, and I respect your opinion. You are very well-informed. I could maybe see Darumaka dropping to A. But Joltik to S is not something I will ever be comfortable with-I can see it in B.
As for Darumaka to S, look at how many support it:
-Darumaka, even with Hustle, is still an S-rank mon imo. It can miss a move or two, but in most good matchups (Ice, Steel, Bug, and Grass), it isn't too threatened anyways. Has a high encounter rate, gets ridiculous moves, and is obtained relatively early. Evolving it into Darmanitan makes it a beast. Clearly something an S rank mon would have.
In my last Black playthrough, Darumaka was a continuous nuke button, from the moment I caught it, up until the very end. It learns hard hitting moves early on, has great coverage throughout the game, and hits hard enough to take down most foes with just neutral damage.
Indeed, missing with Hustle sucks. But for me personally, it was never a major issue. I don't remember it costing me an important match. It's like paralysis, sometimes it won't happen for several battles, sometimes it'll happen 3 times in a row. You kind of "suffer through it", and you're rewarded with Sheer Force, which just DESTROYS.
I also agree about the recoil on Flare Blitz. That's why I just kept using Fire Punch all through the Elite Four. Darmanitan rarely had any issue 1-shotting things. I only used Flare Blitz when I needed the extra power to secure a kill against a foe that wasn't weak to Fire or the other coverage moves.
I personally agree with describing Darumaka as one of the best Pokemon in the game, deserving of a S-rank.
Took a quick look at some stuff in my old black file to remind what I used, some quick thoughts:
Archen: probably the biggest S in any gen
Darumaka: pretty close behind
Joltik: I remember this being A worthy now, I had Modest Compundeyes with Thunder / Thunderbolt / Charge Beam / Signal Beam and not having any issues at all
So yeah, I don't see why Darumaka should drop.