Update on Celebi: Offensive Celebi is horrendous just use Lele instead.
Celebi: UR -> C/C+ Rank
Celebi has the stats and movepool to back up being a decent (though flawed) Pokemon in the USUM OU metagame. I thought of this mainly due to the torrential abuse of teams supported by Pelliper's Drizzle. Celebi, with a bit of Defence investment, avoids a 2HKO from Mega Swampert's Ice Punch; it can outspeed at 2HKO Manaphy (they don't run much speed iirc) and can deal with threats like Azumarill and Crawdaunt (though it can't reliably switch into the latter). It also survives an OHKO from Ash-Greninja's Dark Pulse pre-Battle Bond and can punish it, provided it doesn't get flinched.
The spirit of Ilex Forest has uses outside of the rain matchup too. With a bit of speed investment, it can outspeed all versions of Heatran and 2HKO even Specially Defensive variants with Earth Power. If you have managed to Knock Off Celesteela's Leftovers, then Celebi can come in, wall it and prevent it from recovering from Leech Seed due to its useful Grass typing and Recover off any Heavy Slam or Flamethrower damage. Celebi also walls several threats such as Mega Lopunny and Mega Diancie.
Celebi can run a number of moves to give its user utility. HP Fire can be used to surprise Scizor users and dent Ferrothorn; Thunder Wave can be used for speed control; Leech Seed is useful for punishing non-Grass-type Pokemon that would like to switch in like Heatran, Medicham and Kyurem; Worry Seed can remove Gliscor's Poison Heal, Mawile and Medicham’s attack boosting abilities and stop Regenerator; Toxic can be aimed at Latios/Latias and Tapu Bulu and HP Ice can be used to 2HKO Gliscor and the list goes on - use your imagination lol. Heck, this thing can even get Rocks up. Natural Cure is obviously a really good ability allowing it to pivot into Toxapex and other such passive status spreaders with ease.
Celebi is not without its flaws though. 4x weakness to a move as spammable as U-Turn is not great, and it can sometimes be quite passive in the face of Pokemon that tend to set-up (though this can be mitigated with the correct team support. It can be walled by opposing Pokemon like Mega Sableye and Tapu Bulu quite easily. Four moveslot syndrome takes its toll on our little Onion Fairy as it has so many good utility moves but can't run them all. Grass STAB and Recover are necessary, the other two slots can be left to the imagination, though I have always ran Earth Power leaving only one slot left to get creative with.
For these reasons, I think that Celebi's niche earns it a spot in either C+ or C rank. I haven't yet tried to use an offensive Celebi, but I will make sure to and give my thoughts afterwards. May the spirit of Ilex Forest bring you good health and prosperity. Peace xx
Some replays coz Jordy asked. I had much better quality games in testing with a friend but I don't usually save replays of friendlies so I just went to mess around on ladder.
Vs Rain
Vs Scizor
Vs Charizard X (tbf I should have attacked with Celebi turn 2 instead of switching but whatever I guess this is a demonstration of its bulk)
Vs Webs
I'm hella hype someone finally nommed this. It takes some support but b/c of it's ability you can make it such that it literally cannot be touched and ur win condition. On stall this can be so goddamn annoying and it forces uncertainty on your oppositions side - which is always good; deceit's the name of the game boys. Just make sure you can run some weather/status/defog support depending on ur item, it cannot be touched otherwise itll go down, which is the downside. I really wish we could do dry baton pass as well but it's all good.Really surprised that this isnt already ranked so
Shedinja: UR -> C
Shedinja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- X-Scissor
- Shadow Sneak
- Protect
Shedinja is a super solid pick on stall teams right now, with Wonder Guard letting it wall a lot of the common pokemon that stall usually has trouble with. It got used a bunch in OLT mainly to counter Manaphy rain among other things but with the rise in SD Gliscor Shedinja is getting even better. But if you're not convinced by that alone heres more in-depth about what Shedinja does:
Tapu Lele is a huge threat to Mega Sableye stalls, and Shedinja walls it completely and threatens the 2hko with X-Scissor if Lele doesn't have HP Fire. Even with HP fire, if its a specs/scarf set (which it usually is if HP Fire), it won't matter when Lele's locked into Moonblast/Psyshock/Psychic. And stall doesnt have trouble scouting for this most of the time, regen mons/chansey can soak up damage and protect isn't a rarity on stall. Obviously Shedinja isn't the only mon that beats Lele (@ Mew) but Shedinja has benefits that differentiate it from Mew in that regard- Shedinja having 1 HP means it literally can't be worn down over the course of the match, so the game plan of "chip down the stall player's specs Lele check until its in range of getting 2hkod" is off the table.
Gliscor is worth noting not because its especially problematic for stall- stall has trouble touching it, but it also can't really touch stall in return- but its rise in usage, especially the SD set, just makes a pokemon that can switch in and completely wall it that much better. Its especially worth noting that the Gliscor/Reuniclus core gets eaten alive by Shedinja, with both members giving it a free switch in and forcing it out. Toxic on Gliscor can be a problem but its not the hardest thing to scout for, usually you should switch into something like Skarm or your own Gliscor to catch a Toxic or Defog away rocks before you know the set anyways. But yeah Shed shits on Gliscor and as long as Gliscor's good Shed's gonna be good too to counter it.
Tapu Fini is one of the biggest headaches for stall imo, Misty Terrain blocking Toxic for it and its teammates along with the combination of Taunt/Nature's Madness to punish switches is really rough to deal with. Enter Shedinja, who is immune to everything Tapu Fini runs. Shedinja is in kind of an awkward spot vis a vis Fini where Taunt stops you from Swords Dancing, which means youre relying on the 14-17% of Shadow Sneak to 9hko Fini. More realistically, Fini Taunts and switches out, letting you get a bit of chip in on whatever switches out.
Manaphy is a big part of why Shedinja got popular during OLT, with its Tail Glow+Rest+Waterium Z+Psychic set on rain being able to dismantle stall pretty easily. Shedinja puts a stop to that, walling Manaphy and threatening to turn it into setup bait. But beyond that, Shedinja is the last puzzle piece along with Sableye and Chansey that makes that particular stall build have a really solid rain matchup. Shedinja easily switches into and walls Manaphy and Swampert (or Kingdra or Koko, depending on the team), Chansey switches into and walls Greninja, and Sableye switches into and walls Ferrothorn. These 3 aren't amazing vs Torn/Pelipper (Shed can technically counter Pelipper but you really don't want to risk taking a surprise Hurricane when you need Shed for Mana+Pert), but you have 3 more team slots that can cover those. But yeah overall Shedinja makes stall really safe against rain, in spite of Manaphy otherwise destroying it.
Theres a bunch of other stuff that Shedinja counters but its usually contingent on that pokemon not having a given move so I don't want to go as in-depth on those: pokemon like non-Stone Edge/Fly Lando, non-Toxic Toxapex, non-HP Fire Magearna, non-Knock Off Kartana, non-Knock Off/Fire Fang Mega Mawile (even if its sucker punch, you just burn it and watch it get chipped to death while clicking SD/Wisp), non-Heat Wave Zapdos, non-Wisp/Toxic Rotom-W, non-Stone Edge Bulu, non-Fire Blast Clef, non-HP Fire Mega Latios, non-Knock Off Mega Scizor... the list goes on. Shedinja is just a very solid blanket check to a lot of dangerous mons for stall, and stall teams that are built to support it by keeping hazards off the field and soaking up damage from pokemon that threaten it (ttar, gren, blace, torn, etc) are really rewarded for it.
Obligatory Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-980350523 Shedinja gets a free switch into and walls Gliscor and Lele whenever they come in, forcing them out and getting chip on whatever switches in (usually Heatran)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-980581994 Shedinja is able to wall and force out Fini and Gliscor until it sets up to +6 on them and sweeps
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-980593057 this ones really short (rip) but it shows how sableye+pex+sableye+chansey are able to switch around ferrothorn and fini and make the opponent waste pp super easily
also like. shedinja's OLT success shows how good it is. shed for C
if I take a shedinja team to lets say... 1900 with it consistently doing work. will u redact your statement?I would love Shedinja to be viable, because it can check big threats to stall like cm Keldeo, Kommo-o, and pain split Magearna, BUT there is just too much holding it back, and it can't make measures to deal with all of its problems. Sash allows you to scout for potential coverage moves once per battle, but then you can't use protective pads for stuff like Garchomp and Ferrothorn. You also lose to sand without safety goggles, and no item can protect Shedinja from pursuit (except sash once, but you'll almost certainly get trapped again, and if its Tyranitar you drop to sand anyway).
You can get some wins with a Shedinja team, perhaps sweep with it low ladder, and if you're really good, you can get high ladder with it (I do believe there is an old RMT stall team that peaked fairly high). However, at the end of the day, Shedinja is more of a burden than a boon. The only way to fit it on a team is to have it check what the rest of your team can't, so if it faints, you're screwed. It's susceptible to too much, and the threat of hazards relegates it to stall. Stall teams can provide lots of support for Shedinja, but in turn demand support from Shedinja. So again, if it faints to stray burn/poison, sand etc., the whole team folds.
No. Like I said, you can get high ladder with a Shedinja team, but that's true with pretty much any other mon if the rest of your team is good and you're a good player. Shedinja doesn't check anything other Pokemon can't check, it requires heavy support, and it straight up loses in certain MUs even with this support (pursuit, sand, etc.).if I take a shedinja team to lets say... 1900 with it consistently doing work. will u redact your statement?
You're vastly overestimating the detriment of item choice here lmao. Shedinja being weak to weather + rough skin/iron barbs isn't a death sentence, it just means you're forced to play more smartly with it... if they have a Ferrothorn/Garchomp/Helmet Lando/Helmet Zapdos in the back when you have Shedinja in it just means you can't click X-Scissor freely which tbh. Not only would you not do that anyways since getting a burn on all 4 of those pokemon is infinitely better than getting a tiny amount of chip damage, and considering that those pokemon all force Shed out anyways it pretty much doesn't change the matchup at all. As for Ttar yeah it smashes Shed with Pursuit and sand but you pretty much just have to be smart with double switching and teambuilding in that regard. Its a headache for Shed stall admittedly but theres no stall team that beats everything and Shed's strengths more than make up for that weakness imo.Sash allows you to scout for potential coverage moves once per battle, but then you can't use protective pads for stuff like Garchomp and Ferrothorn. You also lose to sand without safety goggles, and no item can protect Shedinja from pursuit (except sash once, but you'll almost certainly get trapped again, and if its Tyranitar you drop to sand anyway).
This is also a pretty ridiculous statement, Shedinja's good bc of its unique ability to check a bunch of stall threats but there's nothing to say that it has to be the only thing on your team that can check those pokemon, especially when stall is already full of so much role compression. Like out of the pokemon I mentioned in the post above that its important for Shedinja to beat, Mew also beats Lele, Skarmory also beats Gliscor, Pyukumuku also beats Manaphy, Zapdos also beats Fini, etc etc... if Shedinja drops its not like you suddenly lose, ideally you'll have built your team to have multiple answers to threats... like a good stall team should. And before you say something like "why not play Mew/Skarm/Zapdos/Pyuk/etc instead" Shedinja is unique in that it offers unique role compression, there's no other pokemon that can just as effectively handle this specific combination of setup sweepers, specific wallbreakers and stallbreakers with only one teamslot. Shed for CThe only way to fit it on a team is to have it check what the rest of your team can't, so if it faints, you're screwed. It's susceptible to too much, and the threat of hazards relegates it to stall. Stall teams can provide lots of support for Shedinja, but in turn demand support from Shedinja. So again, if it faints to stray burn/poison, sand etc., the whole team folds.
I don't see why the heavy support thing really matters when Shedinja can only be used on one sort of team anyway, which is a style that directly caters to the needs of Shedinja. You can obviously get high on the ladder with essentially any pokemon, but we're talking about a pokemon that is actually used at high ladder (and a lot in OLT), and not as a completely meme.No. Like I said, you can get high ladder with a Shedinja team, but that's true with pretty much any other mon if the rest of your team is good and you're a good player. Shedinja doesn't check anything other Pokemon can't check, it requires heavy support, and it straight up loses in certain MUs even with this support (pursuit, sand, etc.).
Guardsweeper said:
Mega Latias A >>> A+ [Has been the best Psychic type in Tour for a while, definitely more relevant than Mega Zam]
MLati is def more relevant than Mega Zam
Balance and semi-stall seem to be doing much better than full stall right now (because of the popularity of Swords Dance Gliscor, Mega Latias, Reuniclus, Manaphy, etc.), which is why I think that Skarmory (which appears on a range of bulky team archetypes) is much better than most of if not all the Pokémon in B-, which is where the full stall Pokémon reside (Alomomola, Pyukumuku and Quagsire, which barely see tournament usage). I believe it's better than most of B rank too, which matches its tournament usage (in both SSD and OLT).After being overshadowed by Celesteela for the entirety of USM OU, Skarmory has finally come into its own in the tier. It has recently seen a large influx in usage on bulky balance and stall teams, as it can check some very prevalent threats to those archetypes, such as Kartana, Swords Dance Gliscor, Choice Band Tapu Bulu, and Excadrill. Skarmory is also a great Spikes setter thanks to the large number of switch-in opportunities it can provide with its fantastic defensive typing and physical bulk. As far as teammates go, nothing can top Chansey; it's a fantastic blanket check to specially offensive Pokemon that Skarmory struggles with like Ash-Greninja, Mega Alakazam, Rotom-W, and Volcarona while also being able to set up Stealth Rock and form a hazard stacking core alongside Skarmory.
I really don't want to give Breloom any more negative attention (I love the little thing, I really do), but it's been proven time and time again why it doesn't belong in OU.
Answer me this Dapesa, what does Breloom do that the other Grass-Types and Fighting-Types don't that set it apart?
Spore and Focus Punch on paper are decent options (in previous Generations, it was successful), but there are numerous issues with the strategy now.
1. Terrain. Tapu Fini and Tapu Koko both set up terrain that prevent its primary move, Spore, from being used.
2. There are Grass-Types that can handle Breloom 1v1 like Tangrowth and Mega Venusaur, while Ferrothorn and Kartana can be used with proper prediction to nullify Spore and bait the Fighting-Type move.
3. Once Spore is used up, Breloom doesn't have any easy way back into battle if forced out until either the opponent's sleeping Pokemon wakes up or you attempt a Revenge Kill (I would say switch into Leech Seed, but Breloom has no business switching into the Grass-Types that do this, maybe short of Ferrothorn).
4. Breloom isn't bulky. Sure it can tank a resisted hit, but not much else. The one plus it has against Kartana is being a bit more Specially Bulky, but it's not worth a significant drop in both Speed and Attack.
5. What Mega Scizor is running 0 Attack IVs? I know this doesn't count, but I can't let that one go. Plus, your Defensive Calcs prove nothing since it resists Ground already; why not post relevant Calcs against Pokemon Breloom can stop but its competition might have problems with?
The real 5. If Breloom is incredibly match-up reliant, what's stopping a trainer from using something more consistent? If it's due to the team, it might need a rebuild, not a struggling Pokemon.
6. You bring up the potential of Breloom checking Ash Greninja. Firstly, it doesn't get Poison Heal immediately, it takes a turn. Second, the chances of surviving both Hydro Pumps are incredibly low, even with the chance of one missing. Finally, Ice Beam exists. It's not reliable in the slightest when it comes to its ability to check Ash-G.
There are more reasons why Breloom isn't viable in OU, but I'm currently busy. Somebody else will likely go into more detail.
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 16 Def Tapu Fini: 453-546 (132 - 159.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery
1- Breloom does have poor matchup against all the Tapus, thats just a fact.
2- It also does pretty poorly against most grass types (however this specific set beats Ferrothorn, I forgot to mention it in the post). However, if the enemy isn't careful enough, they might be too weakened for them to check Breloom. Also, Breloom can act as a very soft check to Scarf Kartana on the resisted hits.
3- That's already covered in the original post, Breloom really needs to think about when it should use spore. As I said, it's definitely not a reliable pokémon that will be worth using every game, but it can sometimes come again and again.
4- It has some useful resistances, which are taken advantage in that set.
5- Thats just standard Mega Scizor. They usually run Swords Dance to make up for the lack of attack investment, but doing that in the face of a Breloom behind substitute won't end up well. Also, as for the calc Breloom deals with Rockium Z Landorus while grass types not named Kartana or Ferrothorn have trouble with it.
6- Gliscor is considered a Heatran check too, but Gliscor also relies on Poison Heal being already activated and Heatran not being Z-move. Same goes for a SpDef Breloom against unevolved Ash Greninja. It can relieve some pressure for the main checks, but I already stated that other grass types do that job much better and as main checks, not secondary checks. For example, you could change the spread of the Breloom i used to 236 HP / 36 Atk / 12 Def / 128 SpD / 96 Spe and an Impish nature to allow Breloom to be an Ash Greninja 1-time check at the cost of dealing less damage.
I'm aware that Breloom is pretty bad in the current meta, that's why I put it in C-. However, I don't think it's ability to threaten most pokémon with the threat of Spore + good damage output should be overlooked either. I do understand that the fact that it's not ranked is probably because of its unreliability and matchup-dependency and I'm fine with that. However, when it works it really does work, that's why I wanted to see what people have to say about Breloom being in the lowest rank in OU viability rankings.
Thunder Pwoell was referring to a completely different set that lures and kills Tapus. The set I imagine they would be using is this one:Im getting confused about the breloom discussion. I thought its all about the sub punch set which obviously has a fair amount of problems against the tapus (as it simply cannot afford to run bulled seed and SD and Iron tail or max attack). And even if its running these moves setting up will be kinda hard with it being easily worn down (im assuming a set with 3/4 moves or SD and LO and technican), having no heal and btw not enough space for seed, tail, mach and focus and spore and SD).
As Long as there is a fini or Koko Alive they can block spore for like 5 turns so it clearly has a Bad mach up against them lol.
I do not see what altaria brings to the table, it has one set that I'd even call usable which is 2 attacks, dd and roost, which gets walled by celesteela and other mons that resist Return while also handling eq.RG Moti said:Altaria-Mega: Unranked to C-
Altaria has always been a mediocre pokemon, but in this current meta, we had the rise of Kommo-o in all his versions, and also the Rise of Weather, Rain and Sun, and Altaria puts on work on this styles cause of his bulk and typing, I don't think a DD set is any good, but Defensive versions can put work against a lot of teams
Altaria-Mega @ Altarianite
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Body Slam
- Roost
- Toxic / Heal Bell / Defog / Haze / Flamethrower
- Earthquake / Flamethrower / Ice Beam
Max Defense so it can take on stuff like Lopunny or Swampert, also with Toxic or Haze this can check most versions of Volcarona, a menace for a lot of teams in the current meta, I think this meta is really favorable rn for this mon while still having problems, mostly because stuff like LO Clefable and Gliscor (w/o Ice Beam) switching in for free against Alt and having the 4mss syndrome, and being really weak to steel types, especially Magearna, and really weak to Hazards, so even if he runs Defog by his own is recommendable to run another Defog/Spinner alongside him, also Checking both Zards is a really good thing to have right now to have considering they are rising.
Just gonna point out here, pex does definitely not wall all Kommo sets, BD Tpunch beats it, which is the only set alt is a good answer to. Also comparing the 2 is odd to me, they don't really fill the same roles outside of both being gren checks and SSIs for kommo.As a defensive wall, it is outshined by toxapex, which both does similar things to it, like walling all kommo-o sets (z clang into +1 tpunch has a very small chance of ohkoingthe spdef set). Another problem with it is that it doesn't do well against defensive teams at all, since it just gets statused and doesn't fight back. It is incredibly passive, while also taking up a mega slot.
Kommo doesn't actualy give altaria a free switch, as both the z clanging scales set and spdef set (why) can cripple it through poison jab (2hkos 68% of the time and can poison) or toxic (RIP).
BD tpunch doesn't beat pex unless you belly drum on the switch. BD is also much less common compared to the other two sets, which, as I pointed out is terrible for alt.Just gonna point out here, pex does definitely not wall all Kommo sets, BD Tpunch beats it, which is the only set alt is a good answer to. Also comparing the 2 is odd to me, they don't really fill the same roles outside of both being gren checks and SSIs for kommo.
So this post isn't just a useless nitpick, I support Alt to be ranked as it does have some useful qualities outlined in the original post, as well as offering some decent role compression in fog + gren check + tran check (depending on set). While other mons can perform the same role (like fini), it can distinguish itself from these via its unique attributes like hyper voice going through sub (very useful for BD Kommo, particularly if it's pjab as you'd lose to it otherwise) as well as reliable recovery in roost. Far from the best mon, but definitely worthy of a rank considering shit like zydog is on here (not saying it shouldn't be, but alt is probably above it imo).