Battle Tree Discussion and Records

[ReptoAbysmal]

The best way to deal with TR is to protect spam it out. I've been messing with the idea of a Pelliper/Z-Belly Drum Poliwrath team but the inability to deal with the mostly psychic type trick roomers turns me off from it. I honestly think that TR is just the best archetype in the BT this gen. We got some incredible TR abusers in Torkoal and Gigalith and Oranguru is the ideal TR setter, with inner focus and a mental herb there is absolutely nothing the enemy can do to stop TR from getting off.

The main problem Oranguru will face is being overpowered by sheer offense in tandem with other weaker moves. Its bulk is respectable but not particularly refined and the usual shit like Tyrantrum4 will be a significant threat. I whore TR like nobody's business and I can already tell that my randomizing method is not going to fly any more. Fake Out or Protect bait are going to be vital.

Second, stalling out TR is not nearly as feasible as being able to shut down the setter immediately through hyperoffense, which the multiple-thousand streaks are able to do. Stalling does work but it's too far from perfect. In those situations you win more because the enemy's team is too poor and unsynergetic to make full use of it. I've found Mara less dangerous than random Slowthing-packing trainers for this reason, as their potential combinations expand drastically. However, assuming this iteration expands the TR-abusing trainer roster to include most of these new sub-50 pokes, they will be a substantial threat more often.

 

[theyen]

Amoonguss-3RelaxedRocky HelmetRage PowderSporeGiga DrainSludge BombHP/Def
We can try to overwhelm the TR Setter, but if this set starts and clicks Rage Powder, we are done. A couple of tweaks and this can be used for VGC. Also note that this is the only user of Rage Powder and the only other user of Follow Me is weak Togekiss1 set

 

[Giratina93]

There's something weird about that data dump. I'm not seeing a Dragonium Z Noivern in there, which I know for a fact I ran across in the Battle Royal. Does the BR pull from a different list of mons, or is there some stuff missing from there?

 

[featherwick]

Don't know if this is the place to ask or not, but has anyone made any QR codes for the battle tree or battle royal?

 

[Magicxgame]

Here are some things I've noticed from the data dump from a quick glance:

Pokemon that were previously missing:
-Rotom forms
-Azelf
-Mesprit
-Uxie
-(Mega) Pidgeot
-(Mega) Banette
-(Mega) Mawile
-(Mega) Sableye
-(Mega) Audino
-(Mega) Glalie
-(Mega) Camerupt
-(Mega) Sharpedo (has four sets instead of two)
-Pelipper
-Amoonguss
-Whimsicott
-Jellicent


Notable MIAs:
-Ultra Beasts
-Tapus
-Aegislash
-Azumarill
-Cloyster
-Drought Torkoal

Other notable changes (not including Megas and Z-Crystals):
-Ferrothorn4 FINALLY got Seed Bomb instead of Rock Smash
-Latias3 is now a physical set instead of a Choice Specs set, while Latias4 is a Mega Latias
-Lapras4 changed from a medicore Perish Trapper into a special attacker
-All Porygon2 sets except the first carry Eviolite
-Blastoise4 changed from a physical set to a special set
-Cresselia3 changed from a support set into a mediocre stall set
-Snorlax4 now carries Fissure! (Vikavolt4 also carries Guillotine, so now there are two more Set4 OHKO users to worry about.)
-Shiftry4 carries Leaf Blade and X-Scissor instead of Sucker Punch and Low Kick.
-A lot of past-gen tutor moves, such as Icy Wind Suicune and Low Kick Shiftry, are now gone, ostensibly to make the Pokemon S/M legal.

Overall, it seems like the AI pulled out all the stops since it can use Mega Evolutions, Z-Moves, and Pokemon like Rotom forms and the lake trio that were previously missing. Expect the whining on other sites to go through the roof, though. :(

 

[Team Rocket Elite]

There's something weird about that data dump. I'm not seeing a Dragonium Z Noivern in there, which I know for a fact I ran across in the Battle Royal. Does the BR pull from a different list of mons, or is there some stuff missing from there?

That might be true. I found what looks like Battle Royal Pokemon movesets (which includes a Dragonium Z Noivern) and added them to the spreadsheet. I'll see if I can find the trainer data later.

Edit: Where "later" apparently means "right now". I added the Battle Royal Trainers as well.

 

[Giratina93]

Oh Gamefreak, you so silly. You get rid of most of the move tutor mons... yet you allow this to slip past:

Shiftry-2TimidExpert BeltIcy WindLeaf StormDark PulseHurricaneSpd/SpA

 

[turskain]

http://turskain.github.io/ updated with SM damage calculator and Battle Tree sets. A dozen sets are missing and there are possible errors, and some formes such as Alolan Muk are missing from the Showdown calculator so use at your own risk for now.

 

[Kietharr]

I keep getting killed by the weirdest shit in doubles right before 50. This time it was a rain dance torrent greninja. Finally went and finished my singles streak with the Goli/Nihilego/Kartana team, ended up losing on battle 80 to Plumeria's mega Gengar after her Crobat got too much chip damage on my Nihilego for it to survive a shadow ball.

 

[ReptoAbysmal]

Expect the whining on other sites to go through the roof, though. :(

There was already an eruption over Shell Smash Kommo-o.

Honestly I don't think the whining will change that much because of the precedence set by previous gens without any of these new nightmares. I do think there will be fewer cries of hax compared to cries of being overpowered by inopportune Z-moves and Megas. The team-countering claims definitely will not change.

turskain basically got his wish, in part, though, for those who remember it from the previous gen. Apart from lacking the UBs the AI has access to a lot more of the strong things which we could unleash, which will go a long way in changing our teams. I do believe the incredibly monotonous (2000+) superlong streaks from perfectly synergetic teams will be a thing of the past.

 

[OrangeFluffy Sheep]

I do believe the incredibly monotonous (2000+) superlong streaks from perfectly synergetic teams will be a thing of the past.

If I can hit 30/40/50 for the drops reliably, that's all that matters to me.

 

[ReptoAbysmal]

I know a lot of people will be in it just for ingame milestones (which probably cap at 200 if they're like previous games) or BP, but there's a great deal of pride to be had by cracking gigantic milestones like 1,000. I would love to see someone do that here without cheating.

 

[turskain]

I fixed most of the errors in the sets in http://turskain.github.io/ , everything except Alolan Muk should be in now. Showdown's SM support is only a few days old and still not perfect, so check the calculations especially if dealing with new or changed mechanics. Mass calculations should also work for some early theorymon.

On the set data itself, this generation looks very exciting indeed - all Megas are included, most of them with alright sets, and the amount of trainers in the list that only carry Set4s has been reduced to almost nothing, with a bunch of Set3/4 mixed trainers and a lot more Set1/Set2 mixed in than in the Maison. Legendaries are no longer exclusive to Veterans, and some species are distributed across regular trainers. I'm assuming the last 100 trainers or so of the list are the ones appearing after Battle 50, but we'll see.

I was pretty afraid of Z-moves, but the sets seem a little underwhelming for them. There's a lot of non-STAB Z-moves, some of them really poor such as Rockium-Z Zapdos1 boasting AncientPower, and Groundium-Z Vikavolt4 with Mud Shot.

Among new additions to the pool are Whimsicott (Tailwind on Set4), the Rotom formes (Z-items on Mow, Heat and Frost), Mega Salamence with Double-Edge, Mega Charizard X with a Dragon Dance set, and Mega Sableye. Espeon was one thing, but can Durant deal with Sableye-3 (Bold Sablenite Foul Play Recover Will-O-Wisp Snarl HP/Def)?

Of old sets, Tornadus1 @ Life Orb has gotten Flyinium-Z instead, so the old Hurrnadus will not be as threatening as before aside from its Z-Move. Gyarados4 and Garchomp4 are gone, replaced by their Mega counterparts with new sets. Kingdra4, Hydreigon3 and Drampa4 now threaten Draconium Z Draco Meteor, but the Lati twins remain Z-free.

I'm really excited for these changes, the new Pokémon are looking very promising as well.

 

[OrangeFluffy Sheep]

There's a lot of non-STAB Z-moves, some of them really poor such as Rockium-Z Zapdos1 boasting AncientPower, and Groundium-Z Vikavolt4 with Mud Shot.

I'm guessing the idea there is to make coverage moves suddenly a lot more lethal, to catch people off-guard with weird tricks. By seeing them in advance they lose that impact.

 

[MKL122788]

Does anyone have any thoughts about an Alolan Ninetales with Snow Warning and Aurora Veil? I feel like Aurora Veil would be an incredibly easy way to allow just about anyone to set up, regardless of the opponent for the most part.

 

[Anna says hi]

Returning gen 6 veteran here, and wall of text incoming with my thoughts on the new mons and sets.

First off, the classic Dragonite+Aegislash core is easily available pre-bank. This allows for easy streaks to 50 and will probably make up the bulk of the leaderboard early this generation. I myself have already planned a team using these guys.
Second, the other way to easily get to 50, the Ultra Beasts, have been good from what I'm hearing in the discord. Most singles teams will use something like Pheromosa and Kartana with something else. These probably won't be easily sustainable streaks but they will be quick and easy to obtain.
Third, the pre-bank restrictions on Pokemon are tough. A lot of classic staples are sealed behind the bank and stuck in gen 6. For reference, no legendaries(outside of the Tapus), no Gliscor, no tutor moves, no Durant or Drapion, no Protean Greninja, and a lot of others I'm missing. For this reason, pre-bank is significantly harder to build long streaks in.

Now, my biggest point. The sets have been shuffled a bit, as with every new generation. The AI can now use megas and Z-moves, both of which can spell doom for an inexperienced player. With several exceptions, Aegislash has overwhelmingly favorable matchups against the Megas the AI can use, cementing its place as a staple of the gen 7 battle tree. There are some new sets that I can see being troublesome for certain teams.

Rotom-Heat4: HP / SpA, Modest, Firium Z, Overheat, Will-o-Wisp, Shadow Ball, Volt Switch

Z-move Overheats are nasty to deal with and Will-o-Wisp is not fun for teams without a status absorber. Lum Berry Dragons match up well against this in the lead spot, boosting once and OHKOing with Outrage.


Gyarados4: Atk / Spe, Jolly, Gyaradosite, Waterfall, Dragon Dance, Crunch, Stone Edge (Previously Gyarados3)

DD 3 attacks Mega Gyarados is no joke. With frightening attack and speed after a single boost with solid bulk thanks to Intimidate pre-mega, this set will be the death of more defensive teams. Gyarados4 will not hesitate to take advantage of your passiveness and make you pay heavily should you try to PP stall it. Additionally, the 20% chance for additional effects on Waterfall and Crunch as well as Stone Edge's increased Critical Hit rate ensure that it has plenty of chances to hax you to death.


Malamar4: Atk / SpD, Careful, Assault Vest, Psycho Cut, Superpower, Rock Slide, Night Slash

An annoying thing that will cause poorly made teams to rage. This is not a serious threat to any well-built team, but can be a nightmare for a casual player to face.


Shiinotic4: HP / SpD, Sassy, Weakness Policy, Moonblast, Grass Knot, Moonlight, Spore

Ready to roll the dice on Sleep? Yeah, me neither. If you have a status absorber this thing is child's play to deal with. If you don't, it's incredibly annoying because of its access to reliable recovery and Weakness Policy deterring use of SE moves to take it down quickly. Similar to Malamar4, most well-built teams won't have any trouble dealing with this.


Salamence4: Atk / Spe, Jolly, Salamencite, Dragon Rush, Crunch, Earthquake, Double-Edge

AoA Mega Salamence is strong. Dragon Rush flinches are annoying. I guess you can PP stall this thing if you have Gliscor with a Sub up already or maybe let it kill itself by sending out Chansey, but neither of those are appealing. The best strategy to deal with this monster is having already set up.


Now while those may not look like much, those are only the new sets. Remember that a lot of Maison sets will still show up in the Tree. (Hiya Lax Incense OHKO Walrein and BrightPowder Double Team Zapdos!) That's all I've seen just at first glance too, so there may be hidden terrors. Anyway, if all goes well, then I should have my streak begin on Wednesday!

 

[ReptoAbysmal]

Yeah, the Salamence4 set made me raise my eyebrow a few times also. He was the MVP of all of my trophy runs sans Triples and Double Edge was as retardedly nukey as a lot of the more notorious hard-hitting attacks like Refrigerate Hyper Beam from Aurorus4. I suspect the Dragon Rush flinches are going to be rare just because of how severely jacked the base power of DE becomes under Aerilate. Kinda like how Tyrantrum4 uses almost nothing but Head Smash; I figure the AI will habitually spam DE and the reports that they needlessly waste their Z-moves illustrates that.

Speaking of Aurorus4, Gardevoir4 ditched the Babiri Berry for Gardevoirite, and replaced Moonblast with Hyper Beam. She can be added to the list of one-hit wonders.

 

[Drew]

So Aurorus2 keeps repeating Hail and Sandstorm if it can't hit super effectively, so free set up fodder ig

Also Kiawae looks like a p cool option for a multi battle partner with talonflame + mega kang

 

[Smuckem]

You're the second person on here so far to relate the experience of dealing with Aurorus2...but at least it (especially the Snow Warning variant) can cause your FEARs some trouble, and it's bulky enough to take a while to knock down if you're relying on neutral hits.

NOTHING can compare to the utter uselessness of Florges2, though. If the Tree's AI is unchanged from the Maison's, you can sit there and do anything you like while it switches between Grassy & Misty Terrains endlessly. It even ignores attacking FEARs sometimes. I hereby vote that Florges2 retains its crown as The Worst Facility Set this Gen.

EDIT: After doing it for the Subway & White Treehollow/Black Tower, and not bothering with it for the Maison, it appears Serebii is starting up his visually pleasing Trainer Catalogue for the Tree, though atm he only has the special trainers on there. That's cool, I hope he does the same for the Royal.

 

[KCN]

Anybody have any Battle Tree Singles teams that use Pheromosa?

 

[LucarioMega]

In my way to 50 (Now playing 44) and Toxapex is just stupid. She just fucked a Trick Room team with Dusknoir Cresselia and Rotom Frost and solo the three of them. Definitely MVP of this run.

EDIT: What happen if i scout a veteran class trainer? Those that use legendaries. They would bring legendaries in Multi battle?

 

[Kietharr]

Yeah, they have two pokemon from their team. Those guys and boss trainers are the best ones to have. I still keep getting fucked in multi battle though, holy hell is it terrible.

I've also found that Talonflame, despite the nerfs, is still pretty viable in BT with Flyium-Z.

 

[LucarioMega]

From the team i faced? Like a guy had Lati@s and Raikou, so he can have 2 of them?

What about Super Doubles? Im thinking in a Rain Dance team with Peliper, Tapu Koko, Kingdra (Have to wait till tomorrow that i can scan for a Horsea) and... Maybe Kangaskhan? Or other good Mega, like Salamance.

Also Mat Block Greninja with Kangaskhan, but the lack Proteam and Power Up Punch is kinda bad for that strategy.

 

[Kietharr]

I've tried a couple of different things to varying success. I first tried a TR team with Oranguru/Gigalith/Celesteela/Hariyama but Gigalith is just too meh and has too many bad matchups to be used as a staple core like that. I swapped him for Torkoal but that matchup also has its issues, namely that the AI uses non-auto weathers. Despite them being generally shitty they do really mess with the Torkoal strat on turn 1 so if you want to do that, you need to use something like Oranguru/Smeargle/Torkoal/backup sweeper but dedicating two pokemon to getting a TR when you never know what kind of backliners the AI's gonna bring out is pretty annoying. Whatever you put in that coverage slot on Torkoal's moveset is still going to get stalled out by something badly enough for TR to wear off before his sweep is over.

Those TR teams can probably take you to 50 but I kept getting wrecked around battle 30-40, not even by mega, legends, ect but by really stupid shit like anger point physical camerupt, divestall wishiwashi, rain dance/surf/torrent defensive greninja, ect.

So I went back to the drawing board yesterday and have pulled out a Koko/Pelliper/Scarfchomp/Talonflame team that feels more stable. Talonflame is kind of just filler, I needed an EQ immune pokemon that wasn't weak to ice to use with Chomp in the backline and my Celesteela is EV'd for trick room with a low speed IV though I suppose it hardly matters.

I like the idea of Kingdra as a Chomp replacement a lot as well especially since Pelliper can run U-Turn which guarantees him a safe switch in, I just completed my Aloladex and wasn't really on the hunt for island scan pokes yet but I'll definitely have to nab one.

 

[LucarioMega]

I was thinking in a TR with Slowpoke, Alolan Marowak and maybe Golisopod/Oranguru, but i think TR teams are just too tedious and not so fun.

Kingdra is great in rains team, but in doubles im kinda confuses about the regular Specs set. I dont know if a Life orb would be viable, and im still missing a good partner for it, maybe a back-up rain setter, or something inmune to Electric because with the Electric terrain from tapu, i would get hurt really bad from Mega Manetric. ScarfGarchomp could be nice, but other dragons and Fairys looks to dangerous.

My last bet and actually the one i like the most is DD lum berry Dragonite (I dont know if i should use Roost+EQ, or EQ+FirePunch) with Mega Kangaskhan, so those TR cant set up with Fake Out and a +1 Outrage in turn 2. Aegi and Scarf Tapu Lele looks good, countering a lot of threads. My doubs would be the Dragonite and Aegis Set.

EDIT: I just tried the DD Dragonite team with Mega Kan and is complete trash lol. I forgot that Outrage in doubles atacks whatever it wants and Mega Kan EQ give a great coverage plus Drago is inmune but in doubles the Parental Bond makes no effect on it, so is not that good.