For a Veil team, you need something with Fake Out so you can safely set it turn one. You also need a way of dealing with weather as you can't set Veil in Sun/Rain/Sand. I used Mega Blastoise since it could use Fake Out while also dealing with Sand teams with Water Pulse and Aura Sphere in addition to having amazing bulk under Veil, but other Pokemon might be able to do that as well. For the backline, I would go with pokemon that can deal with all types of opposing weather, as they are the biggest threat to the team. I would also suggest running Freeze Dry on Ninetales since it can take out threatening sweepers on rain teams such as Ludicolo, Kingdra, or Swampert.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Battle Tree Discussion and Records
- Thread starter Eisenherz
- Start date
I'm talking about singles, but thanks, I appreciate your help!
I'd be quite wary of Aurora Veil in Singles, simply because there's only so many turns you can take advantage of the defense boosts. A Focus Sash can help ensure that Aurora Veil goes up, but then you only have 3 turns at most to take advantage of it. On the contrary, if you have Light Clay to extend the amount of time you have Aurora Veil, you run the risk of not even having it go up due to any quick, strong attack, and leaving your backline to struggle, if they are reliant on Aurora Veil. But, it would give you up to 7 turns of Aurora Veil, best case scenario.
I mean, I haven't tried it, so maybe you can show me better. But the problem I see with this strategy is that Ninetales-A isn't the strongest thing in the world, offensively or defensively. Attack typings are pretty good, and stuff like Blizzard will dent things, but it doesn't have the greatest stats to help back up such strong moves.
It is quite difficult to make A-ninetales usable for singles. On its own it's not a strong poke, it has strong stabs but low BPs to work with, it's fast but not *super* fast as well as hugely vulnerable to Bullet Punch, and even just to set up A-veil and swap you're needing 2 turns (plus exposing your swap in to potential crits or status), and A-ninetales doesn't have Explosion or similar to force a swap without having your backline take a hit.
All in all, not recommending it,
All in all, not recommending it,
This team is a half-baked idea because it’s hard to make Aurora Veil work in Singles, mainly because when the opponent rarely switches you can get longer-lasting team support that isn’t weather dependent by just throwing a stat-lowering move on something with better stats/typing. I think this team could get on the leaderboard at least.
Garchomp @ Dragonium Z
Jolly
Rough Skin
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Confide/Rock Tomb/Scary Face/Substitute/Sand Attack
Ninetales-A @ Focus Sash
Timid
Snow Warning
252 HP / 4 Sp. Def / 252 Spe
- Encore
- Grudge
- Aurora Veil
- Moonblast
Salamence @ Salamencite
Jolly
Intimidate
4 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Sp. Def / 236 Spe
- Substitute
- Roost
- Return
- Dragon Dance
Tips:
1. Switch Ninetales in on Dragon/Fairy/Ice attacks and cripple; removing PP through Encore and Grudge would be more of a priority than Aurora Veil.
2. Know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em (where hold 'em = take a hit and try to sweep with Garchomp and fold 'em = sacrifice Garchomp and possibly Ninetales to cripple an opponent and allow Salamence to boost to +6 with a Sub).
Last edited:
After months of procrastination and being distracted by a new job, I finally got off my lazy rump and got my Super Singles run started.
And of course the first mon I fight is a freaking Darmanitan. The Battle Tree really hates people having fun....
Oh well, here's to my endeavor to get a new long streak that hopefully won't be ended by Sap Sipper Drampas or leaving the 3DS on all night!
And of course the first mon I fight is a freaking Darmanitan. The Battle Tree really hates people having fun....
Oh well, here's to my endeavor to get a new long streak that hopefully won't be ended by Sap Sipper Drampas or leaving the 3DS on all night!
Ok, I'll make an Aegi team.
Thanks
Thanks
NoCheese Edit: This video goes through battle 2005.
There’s the stream from last night; I thought it was the easiest run of battles of the three streams. It definitely helped having the gang from Discord cheering on and keeping things interesting enough that 2 straight hours of Sun/Moon’s legendary theme didn’t become musical torture!
Battle #1993 was probably the most interesting one of the stream. Scarf Entei provided an opportunity to show that while 5 PP Choice users are among the biggest threats to the team, ‘biggest’ is a relative term. At full health with a Substitute, 9 turns of boosts, the potential for a free hit on the switch-in, and the option to use Protect on the first turn against the unknown set, Glalie would need a bad matchup plus bad Moody boosts for me to even have to switch in Mimikyu, at which point whatever the Red Card dragged in would have to be a bad matchup for both Mimikyu and Glalie. Honorable mention: later in the stream I switched back and forth between Durant and Mimikyu to waste all of Accelgor-4’s Protect PP and Entrain it eventually.
There’s the stream from last night; I thought it was the easiest run of battles of the three streams. It definitely helped having the gang from Discord cheering on and keeping things interesting enough that 2 straight hours of Sun/Moon’s legendary theme didn’t become musical torture!
Battle #1993 was probably the most interesting one of the stream. Scarf Entei provided an opportunity to show that while 5 PP Choice users are among the biggest threats to the team, ‘biggest’ is a relative term. At full health with a Substitute, 9 turns of boosts, the potential for a free hit on the switch-in, and the option to use Protect on the first turn against the unknown set, Glalie would need a bad matchup plus bad Moody boosts for me to even have to switch in Mimikyu, at which point whatever the Red Card dragged in would have to be a bad matchup for both Mimikyu and Glalie. Honorable mention: later in the stream I switched back and forth between Durant and Mimikyu to waste all of Accelgor-4’s Protect PP and Entrain it eventually.
Last edited by a moderator:
Congrats!
Did you have had some battles where at some moment it took only a bit more of bad luck like quick claw + hitting through some evasion + crit or something like that to end your streak? There is no doubt that even with perfect play this streak will come to an end, but if it takes 10000+ battles maybe we never witness that. I dont want to discredit your team, its unbelieavable well thought out, its rather the contrary.. do you think you will see it even losing at any realistic time?
Did you have had some battles where at some moment it took only a bit more of bad luck like quick claw + hitting through some evasion + crit or something like that to end your streak? There is no doubt that even with perfect play this streak will come to an end, but if it takes 10000+ battles maybe we never witness that. I dont want to discredit your team, its unbelieavable well thought out, its rather the contrary.. do you think you will see it even losing at any realistic time?
Last edited:
For what it’s worth, I personally witnessed an Incineroar4 chain multiple QC procs back to back, using Flare Blitz each time, while Frost Breath did its job. There were so many factors piled against it, not the least of which sub and high evasion, that nothing came of it.
No idea what the odds are, but kitty needed to first hit the sub, then break the sub, then hit again and manage to KO. Glalie was at full HP sitting on no less than +5 evasion and def, possibly both maxed. He killed a couple Heatrans, much more slowly than Incineroar, and they posed negligible threat also.
There were a handful of AI missing 90% accurate OHKOs on Durant, so it’s not like misfortune was in the air regardless :P
No idea what the odds are, but kitty needed to first hit the sub, then break the sub, then hit again and manage to KO. Glalie was at full HP sitting on no less than +5 evasion and def, possibly both maxed. He killed a couple Heatrans, much more slowly than Incineroar, and they posed negligible threat also.
There were a handful of AI missing 90% accurate OHKOs on Durant, so it’s not like misfortune was in the air regardless :P
I did lose battle 506 the first streak with the team; it was almost certainly the unluckiest loss posted this generation, but I’m under no illusions that the streak could continue indefinitely. If a 5 PP choice user KOs Durant AND has the right teammate that comes out and threatens Glalie AND Glalie has really bad boosts AND Mimikyu’s unable to cripple what gets brought in via Red Card I could lose (and then even at that point there’s always the chance of an unboosted Glalie just clicking Protect and getting the right boost in speed or evasion to pull off a win, which is why Moody is banned lol). Also any unexpected VoltTurns or Explosions early on can be bad when combined with the right teammates and bad boosts.
Some of the threats are overstated in that they’re listed for the sake of being thorough but would need to be accompanied by the worst of the worst Moody boosts and/or at least one, if not two, threatening teammates to have a chance of ending the streak. For example, I’m not particularly worried about the Heatrans that aren’t the Focus Sash one since they have fewer PP worth of super effective moves and can be easily stalled out (plus they’ll mix in Sunny Day, Will-o-Wisp, and Protect to give even more free turns). The QC Fire Starters (Incineroar and Emboar) don’t just spam Flare Blitz, so even before getting into the odds of back-to-back hits against boosted evasion with the 2nd one being a QC crit, I’ve got yet another layer of safety since non-crit Cross Chop/Flame Charge will fail to break a Sub if Glalie’s defense is sufficiently boosted.
Some of the threats are overstated in that they’re listed for the sake of being thorough but would need to be accompanied by the worst of the worst Moody boosts and/or at least one, if not two, threatening teammates to have a chance of ending the streak. For example, I’m not particularly worried about the Heatrans that aren’t the Focus Sash one since they have fewer PP worth of super effective moves and can be easily stalled out (plus they’ll mix in Sunny Day, Will-o-Wisp, and Protect to give even more free turns). The QC Fire Starters (Incineroar and Emboar) don’t just spam Flare Blitz, so even before getting into the odds of back-to-back hits against boosted evasion with the 2nd one being a QC crit, I’ve got yet another layer of safety since non-crit Cross Chop/Flame Charge will fail to break a Sub if Glalie’s defense is sufficiently boosted.
One example which in my opinion definitely is able to end your streak is mega Heracross - if enough odds turn against you.
It can KO any of your Pokemon in one turn. It only needs lets say 5 crits with its multiple hitting moves and no disguise nor substitute will prevent anything. Durant may get an attack off and Mimikyu even two if Heracross is truanted, but when finally Glalie comes in Heracross has too much PP left to stall out. When you run out of Protect PP you still might have no Accuracy Boost, so your Frost-Breath will miss and Heracross will hit 5 consecutive Crits.
Of course this probably is far beyond of what unlikely events will ever happen to anyone ever playing - but on a very theoretical way the streak definitely comes to an end (Probably not by Heracross, i guess there are more threatening Mons).
Again, i dont want to disregard your team, it is brilliant (who even tries to disregard a team that got 2000 wins?)
It can KO any of your Pokemon in one turn. It only needs lets say 5 crits with its multiple hitting moves and no disguise nor substitute will prevent anything. Durant may get an attack off and Mimikyu even two if Heracross is truanted, but when finally Glalie comes in Heracross has too much PP left to stall out. When you run out of Protect PP you still might have no Accuracy Boost, so your Frost-Breath will miss and Heracross will hit 5 consecutive Crits.
Of course this probably is far beyond of what unlikely events will ever happen to anyone ever playing - but on a very theoretical way the streak definitely comes to an end (Probably not by Heracross, i guess there are more threatening Mons).
Again, i dont want to disregard your team, it is brilliant (who even tries to disregard a team that got 2000 wins?)
The issue of double TR setters has been the bane of (some of) our existences for a while, and while it has come up as a topic of discussion several times on the Tree Discord, very few of us have had a solid answer to it. This is, I suppose, the "once every season" check to see if anyone has come up with any solid answers to the conundrum.
It has pointed out to me that ReptoAbysmal & Worldie have worked around the problem simply by having something slower than the setters out on the field, as this appears to dissuade the opposing setters from...er, setting. While he does not explicitly state that he has it around as an anti-TR measure, lolnub's Snorlax from his current best team can serve the same purpose. However, I pose the question now since I doubt everyone here is running some Slowmon just because they fear TR that much.
I wish I could contribute with some ideas of my own, but my current team doesn't really have the answers I seek, just based on how the leads tend to function: https://3ds.pokemon-gl.com/rentalteam/sm/BT-4E83-A1CF
It has pointed out to me that ReptoAbysmal & Worldie have worked around the problem simply by having something slower than the setters out on the field, as this appears to dissuade the opposing setters from...er, setting. While he does not explicitly state that he has it around as an anti-TR measure, lolnub's Snorlax from his current best team can serve the same purpose. However, I pose the question now since I doubt everyone here is running some Slowmon just because they fear TR that much.
I wish I could contribute with some ideas of my own, but my current team doesn't really have the answers I seek, just based on how the leads tend to function: https://3ds.pokemon-gl.com/rentalteam/sm/BT-4E83-A1CF
Last edited:
With my recent streak loss, I decided to look into the I've done a few tests regarding double Trick Room leads, to try and find any consistencies with who sets Trick Room in these scenarios. I've tried two tests, mostly cause I got a little bit bored with testing, and I'm not really sure what else to test at this point, besides more examples.
Both tests were against Scientist Robyn, with the lead of Carbink3 and Oranguru3. In all test battles, I used only Protect in order to not influence the AI as much as possible through damage dealt by me.
In the first test, I wanted to test the idea of having something slower than one of the Trick Room setters, but faster than the other, a problem I've faced with Charjabug on my team and I'm not fully sure with how to fix or deal with this scenario. Specifically, Carbink3 was the Trick Room user that I felt my team had the biggest issue with, which is why I chose this pair for testing. Prior to the test, I always thought that the slower Trick Room user would be the only one that would set Trick Room, as the AI wouldn't see the faster Pokemon as needing Trick Room to outspeed at least something on the player's team.
About half the time, my statement above held true, with the Pokemon slower than Charjabug setting up Trick Room, as expected. However, a good amount of the time, the AI did have the faster Oranguru set Trick Room instead, so I don't see any immediate conclusions with this. A few times though, the AI did choose to not set Trick Room the first turn, and after seeing it twice, I wanted to see what would happen the following turn, again using double Protect to see what happens. Every time, Trick Room did come up, and a majority of the time, it followed the statement that I had said prior to my test.
The second test I had was to see who would set up Trick Room with both of the player's Pokemon faster than both of the opposing Trick Room setters. This is probably the more likely scenario for most people trying to go through the Battle Tree, as very few people I've seen will specifically lead one fast Pokemon and one slow Pokemon for the Battle Tree, unless their team is specifically slow like other Trick Room teams. This time, I had no idea what to expect and just went in blind, trying to see any sort of pattern.
There seemed to be no consistency with who would set up Trick Room in this scenario, with both Trick Room setters setting up Trick Room about an even amount of times. However, Carbink set it up a few more times, and my only theory regarding this is that Oranguru had a potential KO onto Pikachu, which is why it wasn't the one to set up Trick Room. More testing would be needed before this can be in any way confirmed as normal, though based on these results, there won't really be any sort of standard behavior.
While more testing will be needed, something I don't know if I will do myself, these two tests resulted in me coming up with a few theories regarding AI behavior when they have two Trick Room users active at once, and Trick Room not being up.
If the Trick Room setters are faster than your slowest Pokemon, they won't set Trick Room.
This is the statement I first heard from Worldie, when I was trying to improve my Gengar/Charjabug team and voicing out random thoughts on Discord. It's also mentioned in Smuckem's post right above me regarding the issue of double Trick Room setter leads. Worldie told me that his Gigalith indirectly prevented Trick Room from the AI, and after a little bit of adjustment on my team, I found this statement to be true in my experiences, in the Charjabug team, my Z-Snatch team, with a Level 1 Riolu, and my own Trick Room team. This is the only statement here that is borderline fact, and one that I would completely support.
The one that can do the most damage won't set Trick Room.
I've sometimes considered this to be the reasoning for who sets up Trick Room, as often times I see Gengar taken out really early in the battle or Audino4 goes for a Z-Fire Blast into Charjabug. While those two scenarios are usually only in the case of there being one Trick Room setter in the lead, the logic applies to my test, as both times the most damaging option, Psychic from Oranguru3 onto Gengar or Pikachu, a guaranteed OHKO on the former and a chance to KO on the latter, supports this statement. I want to try out some Rock-weak lead in against this pair in the future, to see if Oranguru3 becomes the one to set Trick Room more often because the AI would want to hit the Rock-weak Pokemon with a Power Gem from Carbink3.
The slower one will set Trick Room.
This is the statement that I have always thought was true, up until I decided to test it recently, only to find it somewhat false. While it can be true, based on my tests above, I believe that it is based other factors as well, such as the second statement I've said. This is the one I'm most unsure of, and I honestly believe this might be proven to be false with a little more testing.
As of right now, I can do these same tests onto a few other lead pairs that I currently have a Battle Video recorded for, but this would take a lot of time and effort from me. I probably will get around to them eventually, but I honestly want to improve the teams I have at the moment, or move further along the Battle Tree, maybe up to 200. But, I could put some tests on a bit of priority, if other people are interested, and I have time to do them.
And if anyone is curious on the speeds of Trick Room setters, to try and make whatever lead they are using slower than the Trick Room setters, I made a list of speed tiers before that can be helpful in finding empty speed tiers regarding Trick Room users. Keep in mind this ignores opposing Trick Room abusers and such, in which case you should refer to the main list of speed tiers.
There's also one more AI behavior I'd like to learn about, which is Earthquake and other spread move usage. For me, I mainly want to know about Earthquake, if anyone knows anything. It's basically already known that the AI will use spread moves when their partner is immune to that move, such as Earthquake next to a Flying type, but I'm more curious about instances when the partner isn't immune to it. I've seen several battles where the AI went straight for an Earthquake, despite hitting their ally for a decent chunk of health, just so they could KO my Gengar or Pikachu, depending on what team I'm using. It's really inconsistent and I honestly have no idea how I can test this, or even figure things out. If someone knows anything, please let me know, as it would help me and probably a few other people here as well.
Both tests were against Scientist Robyn, with the lead of Carbink3 and Oranguru3. In all test battles, I used only Protect in order to not influence the AI as much as possible through damage dealt by me.
In the first test, I wanted to test the idea of having something slower than one of the Trick Room setters, but faster than the other, a problem I've faced with Charjabug on my team and I'm not fully sure with how to fix or deal with this scenario. Specifically, Carbink3 was the Trick Room user that I felt my team had the biggest issue with, which is why I chose this pair for testing. Prior to the test, I always thought that the slower Trick Room user would be the only one that would set Trick Room, as the AI wouldn't see the faster Pokemon as needing Trick Room to outspeed at least something on the player's team.
Gengar @ Gengarite
Ability: Cursed Body
Level: 50
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 10 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Icy Wind
- Protect
Charjabug @ Eviolite
Ability: Battery
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 4 Atk / 124 Def / 132 SpD / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
IVs: 28 SpA
- String Shot
- Substitute
- X-Scissor
- Protect
Ability: Cursed Body
Level: 50
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 10 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Icy Wind
- Protect
Charjabug @ Eviolite
Ability: Battery
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 4 Atk / 124 Def / 132 SpD / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
IVs: 28 SpA
- String Shot
- Substitute
- X-Scissor
- Protect
Speed Order: Gengar (178), Oranguru (72), Charjabug (37), Carbink (31)
Only logged Turn 1 unless otherwise stated
1. Power Gem into Charjabug/TR
2. TR/Psychic into Gengar
3. TR/Psychic into Gengar
4. Power Gem into Charjabug/TR
5. Power Gem into Charjabug/Psychic into Gengar
6. TR/Psychic into Gengar
7. Power Gem into Charjabug/Psychic into Gengar
8. Power Gem into Charjabug/TR
9. TR/Psychic into Gengar
10. Power Gem into Charjabug/TR
11. TR/Psychic into Gengar
12. Power Gem into Charjabug/Psychic into Gengar T2: TR/Psychic into Gengar
13. Power Gem into Charjabug/Psychic into Gengar T2: TR/Psychic into Gengar
14. Power Gem into Charjabug/TR
15. TR/Psychic into Gengar
16. TR/Psychic into Gengar
17. Power Gem into Charjabug/TR
18. TR/Psychic into Gengar
19. TR/Psychic into Gengar
20. TR/Psychic into Gengar
21. TR/Psychic into Gengar
22. TR/Psychic into Gengar
23. TR/Psychic into Gengar
24. TR/Psychic into Gengar
25. Power Gem into Charjabug/TR
26. Power Gem into Charjabug/TR
27. Power Gem into Charjabug/TR
28. Power Gem into Charjabug/Psychic into Gengar T2: TR/Psychic into Gengar
29. TR/Psychic into Gengar
30. Power Gem into Charjabug/Psychic into Gengar T2: Power Gem into Charjabug/TR
Results:
TR/Psychic into Gengar: 15 times
Power Gem into Charjabug/TR: 9
Double Attack: 6
Only logged Turn 1 unless otherwise stated
1. Power Gem into Charjabug/TR
2. TR/Psychic into Gengar
3. TR/Psychic into Gengar
4. Power Gem into Charjabug/TR
5. Power Gem into Charjabug/Psychic into Gengar
6. TR/Psychic into Gengar
7. Power Gem into Charjabug/Psychic into Gengar
8. Power Gem into Charjabug/TR
9. TR/Psychic into Gengar
10. Power Gem into Charjabug/TR
11. TR/Psychic into Gengar
12. Power Gem into Charjabug/Psychic into Gengar T2: TR/Psychic into Gengar
13. Power Gem into Charjabug/Psychic into Gengar T2: TR/Psychic into Gengar
14. Power Gem into Charjabug/TR
15. TR/Psychic into Gengar
16. TR/Psychic into Gengar
17. Power Gem into Charjabug/TR
18. TR/Psychic into Gengar
19. TR/Psychic into Gengar
20. TR/Psychic into Gengar
21. TR/Psychic into Gengar
22. TR/Psychic into Gengar
23. TR/Psychic into Gengar
24. TR/Psychic into Gengar
25. Power Gem into Charjabug/TR
26. Power Gem into Charjabug/TR
27. Power Gem into Charjabug/TR
28. Power Gem into Charjabug/Psychic into Gengar T2: TR/Psychic into Gengar
29. TR/Psychic into Gengar
30. Power Gem into Charjabug/Psychic into Gengar T2: Power Gem into Charjabug/TR
Results:
TR/Psychic into Gengar: 15 times
Power Gem into Charjabug/TR: 9
Double Attack: 6
About half the time, my statement above held true, with the Pokemon slower than Charjabug setting up Trick Room, as expected. However, a good amount of the time, the AI did have the faster Oranguru set Trick Room instead, so I don't see any immediate conclusions with this. A few times though, the AI did choose to not set Trick Room the first turn, and after seeing it twice, I wanted to see what would happen the following turn, again using double Protect to see what happens. Every time, Trick Room did come up, and a majority of the time, it followed the statement that I had said prior to my test.
The second test I had was to see who would set up Trick Room with both of the player's Pokemon faster than both of the opposing Trick Room setters. This is probably the more likely scenario for most people trying to go through the Battle Tree, as very few people I've seen will specifically lead one fast Pokemon and one slow Pokemon for the Battle Tree, unless their team is specifically slow like other Trick Room teams. This time, I had no idea what to expect and just went in blind, trying to see any sort of pattern.
Pelipper @ Focus Sash
Ability: Drizzle
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk
- Scald
- Hurricane
- Tailwind
- Protect
Pikachu @ Light Ball
Ability: Lightning Rod
Level: 50
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 30 Def
- Fake Out
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Protect
Ability: Drizzle
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk
- Scald
- Hurricane
- Tailwind
- Protect
Pikachu @ Light Ball
Ability: Lightning Rod
Level: 50
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 30 Def
- Fake Out
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Protect
Speed Order: Pikachu (142), Pelipper (117), Oranguru (72), Carbink (31)
Only logged Turn 1 unless otherwise stated
1. TR/Psychic into Pikachu
2. TR/Psychic into Pikachu
3. Power Gem/TR (Likely Pelipper, but missed message)
4. Power Gem into Pelipper/TR
5. TR/Psychic (Missed message)
6. TR/Psychic into Pelipper
7. Power Gem into Pelipper/TR
8. Power Gem into Pelipper/TR
9. Power Gem into Pelipper/TR
10. TR/Psychic (Missed message)
11. TR/Psychic (Missed message)
12. TR/Psychic into Pikachu
13. TR/Psychic into Pikachu
14. Power Gem into Pikachu/TR
15. TR/Psychic into Pikachu
16. TR/Psychic into Pelipper
17. TR/Psychic into Pikachu
18. Power Gem into Pelipper/TR
19. TR/Psychic into Pikachu
20. TR/Psychic into Pelipper
21. TR/Psychic into Pikachu
22. TR/Psychic into Pikachu
23. Power Gem into Pelipper/TR
24. Dazzling Gleam/TR
25. TR/Psychic into Pikachu
26. TR/Psychic into Pelipper
27. Power Gem into Pelipper/TR
28. TR/Psychic into Pelipper
29. Dazzling Gleam/TR
30. Power Gem into Pelipper/TR
Results:
Carbink setting Trick Room: 18
Oranguru setting Trick Room: 12
Only logged Turn 1 unless otherwise stated
1. TR/Psychic into Pikachu
2. TR/Psychic into Pikachu
3. Power Gem/TR (Likely Pelipper, but missed message)
4. Power Gem into Pelipper/TR
5. TR/Psychic (Missed message)
6. TR/Psychic into Pelipper
7. Power Gem into Pelipper/TR
8. Power Gem into Pelipper/TR
9. Power Gem into Pelipper/TR
10. TR/Psychic (Missed message)
11. TR/Psychic (Missed message)
12. TR/Psychic into Pikachu
13. TR/Psychic into Pikachu
14. Power Gem into Pikachu/TR
15. TR/Psychic into Pikachu
16. TR/Psychic into Pelipper
17. TR/Psychic into Pikachu
18. Power Gem into Pelipper/TR
19. TR/Psychic into Pikachu
20. TR/Psychic into Pelipper
21. TR/Psychic into Pikachu
22. TR/Psychic into Pikachu
23. Power Gem into Pelipper/TR
24. Dazzling Gleam/TR
25. TR/Psychic into Pikachu
26. TR/Psychic into Pelipper
27. Power Gem into Pelipper/TR
28. TR/Psychic into Pelipper
29. Dazzling Gleam/TR
30. Power Gem into Pelipper/TR
Results:
Carbink setting Trick Room: 18
Oranguru setting Trick Room: 12
There seemed to be no consistency with who would set up Trick Room in this scenario, with both Trick Room setters setting up Trick Room about an even amount of times. However, Carbink set it up a few more times, and my only theory regarding this is that Oranguru had a potential KO onto Pikachu, which is why it wasn't the one to set up Trick Room. More testing would be needed before this can be in any way confirmed as normal, though based on these results, there won't really be any sort of standard behavior.
While more testing will be needed, something I don't know if I will do myself, these two tests resulted in me coming up with a few theories regarding AI behavior when they have two Trick Room users active at once, and Trick Room not being up.
If the Trick Room setters are faster than your slowest Pokemon, they won't set Trick Room.
This is the statement I first heard from Worldie, when I was trying to improve my Gengar/Charjabug team and voicing out random thoughts on Discord. It's also mentioned in Smuckem's post right above me regarding the issue of double Trick Room setter leads. Worldie told me that his Gigalith indirectly prevented Trick Room from the AI, and after a little bit of adjustment on my team, I found this statement to be true in my experiences, in the Charjabug team, my Z-Snatch team, with a Level 1 Riolu, and my own Trick Room team. This is the only statement here that is borderline fact, and one that I would completely support.
The one that can do the most damage won't set Trick Room.
I've sometimes considered this to be the reasoning for who sets up Trick Room, as often times I see Gengar taken out really early in the battle or Audino4 goes for a Z-Fire Blast into Charjabug. While those two scenarios are usually only in the case of there being one Trick Room setter in the lead, the logic applies to my test, as both times the most damaging option, Psychic from Oranguru3 onto Gengar or Pikachu, a guaranteed OHKO on the former and a chance to KO on the latter, supports this statement. I want to try out some Rock-weak lead in against this pair in the future, to see if Oranguru3 becomes the one to set Trick Room more often because the AI would want to hit the Rock-weak Pokemon with a Power Gem from Carbink3.
The slower one will set Trick Room.
This is the statement that I have always thought was true, up until I decided to test it recently, only to find it somewhat false. While it can be true, based on my tests above, I believe that it is based other factors as well, such as the second statement I've said. This is the one I'm most unsure of, and I honestly believe this might be proven to be false with a little more testing.
As of right now, I can do these same tests onto a few other lead pairs that I currently have a Battle Video recorded for, but this would take a lot of time and effort from me. I probably will get around to them eventually, but I honestly want to improve the teams I have at the moment, or move further along the Battle Tree, maybe up to 200. But, I could put some tests on a bit of priority, if other people are interested, and I have time to do them.
Cofagrigus3/Slowbro4
Carbink3/Oranguru3
Cofagrigus3/Carbink3
Audino4/Musharna2
Cofagrigus3/Jellicent3
Aromatisse4/Dusknoir4
Carbink3/Oranguru3
Cofagrigus3/Carbink3
Audino4/Musharna2
Cofagrigus3/Jellicent3
Aromatisse4/Dusknoir4
And if anyone is curious on the speeds of Trick Room setters, to try and make whatever lead they are using slower than the Trick Room setters, I made a list of speed tiers before that can be helpful in finding empty speed tiers regarding Trick Room users. Keep in mind this ignores opposing Trick Room abusers and such, in which case you should refer to the main list of speed tiers.
TR Setters
Jellicent3 - 72
Oranguru3 - 72
Audino4 - 70
Dusknoir4 - 58
Bronzong1 - 53
Gourgeist2 - 52
Slowking1 - 50
Cofagrigus3 - 50
Musharna2 - 49
Bronzong4 - 47
Cresselia4 - 47
Reuniclus2 - 45
Slowbro4 - 45
Slowking4 - 45
Aromatisse4 - 44
Trevenant4 - 34
Carbink3 - 31
Dusknoir2 - 29
Jellicent3 - 72
Oranguru3 - 72
Audino4 - 70
Dusknoir4 - 58
Bronzong1 - 53
Gourgeist2 - 52
Slowking1 - 50
Cofagrigus3 - 50
Musharna2 - 49
Bronzong4 - 47
Cresselia4 - 47
Reuniclus2 - 45
Slowbro4 - 45
Slowking4 - 45
Aromatisse4 - 44
Trevenant4 - 34
Carbink3 - 31
Dusknoir2 - 29
There's also one more AI behavior I'd like to learn about, which is Earthquake and other spread move usage. For me, I mainly want to know about Earthquake, if anyone knows anything. It's basically already known that the AI will use spread moves when their partner is immune to that move, such as Earthquake next to a Flying type, but I'm more curious about instances when the partner isn't immune to it. I've seen several battles where the AI went straight for an Earthquake, despite hitting their ally for a decent chunk of health, just so they could KO my Gengar or Pikachu, depending on what team I'm using. It's really inconsistent and I honestly have no idea how I can test this, or even figure things out. If someone knows anything, please let me know, as it would help me and probably a few other people here as well.
Firstly, I am glad to see your experience/checks so far prove my theory of "If you have slowest mon, AI won't set TR" and in fact it might try to actually revert it as I've also noticed, though that's not consistent enough.
That said....
However, this has proved inconsistent: AI can go for spread move even without Protect/Immunity and at same time not nabbing KO on the partner.
I do suspect there's no *specific* interaction that triggers/prevents the spread move.
There is priorization of Protect/Immunity + Spread move, but there's no "other way around", as in, spread move hitting the partner doesn't prevent the AI from using it if your own mons aren't immune to it.
That said....
I originally had the theory that for Explosion/EQ/similar moves, the AI would consider KO on its own partner as KO so would priorize it even if it actually hits the partner.
However, this has proved inconsistent: AI can go for spread move even without Protect/Immunity and at same time not nabbing KO on the partner.
I do suspect there's no *specific* interaction that triggers/prevents the spread move.
There is priorization of Protect/Immunity + Spread move, but there's no "other way around", as in, spread move hitting the partner doesn't prevent the AI from using it if your own mons aren't immune to it.
Reporting a streak of 109 wins in UltraSun.
I got intriguied by watching Eisenherz run a typical Driflbim combination on his stream, so was intrigued to see if it was possible to come up with something comparable. The initial variants also featured Rain Dance so the team comp was mostly rain oriented or at least benefitting from Rain, but I realized I didn't really enjoy that playstyle much.
I've been through a few iterations, I think this is the most solid and I will try it again most likely in same version with minor adjustments, because it does look promising, and ultimately the loss was a combination of my misplay and a tiny bit of bad luck with a speed tie loss + flinch.
Team comp:
Prankwind (Tornadus) @ Electric Seed
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Knock Off
- Tailwind
- Protect
- Acrobatics
Tapu Paper (Tapu Koko) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Electric Surge
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam
- Grass Knot
- Volt Switch
Smaug's Brother (Charizard-Mega-X) @ Charizardite X
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Thunder Punch
- Protect
- Dragon Claw
Hammerhead (Landorus) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Earth Power
- Sludge Bomb
- Protect
- Hidden Power [Ice]
So far I've really only feared two things: Fake Out and Scarfers.
Since Koko doesn't have Protect, basically any combination of Fake Out, potential Scarf and a threatening second active mon means I can't scout safely and I might have to risk Koko or take a swap and risk whatever comes in instead.
My current thought is to use LO on Koko in order to run Protect, but that'll mean I will need a different item on Landorus, or a different mon altoghether in that slot.
Attempts will be made, I suppose.
A few notable Battles:
89 - Victory vs Collector Sam
B6SG-WWWW-WWWS-3NJ7
I wanted to include this one because it was extremely close and ultimately purely down to RNG.
Lead was Aero34 + Pinsir34. I couldn't in any way come up with a 100% safe play. Pinsir could have been scarfed, and scarf comes with possibility of Guillotine into the Koko spot. Aero could have been Banded, and Banded 1hkos both my leads while speed tieing with Koko. Ultimately, I figured that I *needed* tailwind up to have any hope of winning, and at least Lando would not have been 1hkod by anything that could have been aimed at him aside from Guillotine.
Snorlax showing as backline basically accounted for pure panic, and it revealing Snorlax 4 was EVEN MORE panic, because, that ALSO boiled down to RNG: Fissure could have landed, Paralysis could have happened...
This battle was the first moment I started to think I really really needed a answer to being outsped turn 1, either due to Fake out or Scarf.
90 - Victory vs Kiawe
G5QW-WWWW-WWWS-3NYP
...and the battle right after I get to realize how much Fake Out is an issue.
100 - Victory vs Colress
6DJW-WWWW-WWWS-3NYB
Nothing special here, Pory2 is impressively predictable against this lead though. It always targets Tornadus.
110 - Lost vs Kiawe
PFAW-WWWW-WWWS-3NHU
And well yes. I could probably have played this better, and the "final nail" was Charizard losing the speed tie with Kangaskhan AND getting Flinched that turn. Knock Off landing into that Detect also didn't help
This just further shown how much I need an answer to Fake Out leads, because they really put me into weird scenarios. A-Marowak having potential to be L-Rod was just a extra nail in the coffin, because that prevented me from what otherwise would have been a moderately safe play (Volt Switch into Kanga + Knock Off into Marowak)
I got intriguied by watching Eisenherz run a typical Driflbim combination on his stream, so was intrigued to see if it was possible to come up with something comparable. The initial variants also featured Rain Dance so the team comp was mostly rain oriented or at least benefitting from Rain, but I realized I didn't really enjoy that playstyle much.
I've been through a few iterations, I think this is the most solid and I will try it again most likely in same version with minor adjustments, because it does look promising, and ultimately the loss was a combination of my misplay and a tiny bit of bad luck with a speed tie loss + flinch.
Team comp:
Prankwind (Tornadus) @ Electric Seed
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Knock Off
- Tailwind
- Protect
- Acrobatics
Essentially what I wanted to build around. I wanted a Prankster Tailwind (that wasn't Whimsicott).
I originally tried the old Tornadus I got from ORAS, which was Impish (what's a sync anyway). I ran a set with Tailwind, Z-Hurricane, Rain Dance and Taunt. Did not like the excessive passivity of the Poke, anytime I did not need Tailwind it felt like I was playing 3v4. Z-hurricane looked fine on paper but needing to invest Z-move to use it + would be unreliable anytime I couldn't set Rain Dance.
Version 2 was the one I caught in USUM, Modest, I used Wide Lens Air Slash as main move, originally also had Icy Wind instead of Taunt as it was sided with Lele (which, blocks Prankster Taunt).
It did look promising, but I ran into the predicted nemesis of Oranguru and Aromatisse, which I knew I had no realistic way to stop TR from going up, due to Taunt immunity + impossible to KO turn 1.... in fact the team I had ran in had BOTH, and I invested everything in killing Oranguru only to get Aromatisse show up next turn and get a impossible to stop TR up.
Looking around for options about Trick Room leads, I realized that Tornadus has usable attack and Knock Off significantly dents or 1HKOs all TR setters not called Aromatisse or Carbink, and Acrobatics significantly dents Aromatisse itself.
I've then started a bit of GTS lottery, I wasn't really going to restart USUM or ORAS to catch another Tornadus, so I traded a few until I ran into a +attack version. Adamant would be... better, I suppose, but I don't have the luxury to get one for now.
The first versions of Tornadus3 were completely itemless as the other lead was usually a Mega (Mega Gengar at start, tried Mega Pinsir as well a bit), then decided to opt siding for a Tapu, and Electric seed giving +1 defense at least gives Tornadus passable survivability vs Rock Slides and non-crit Stone Edges.
I also eventually ditched Taunt for Protect, as I realized my matchup vs Fake Out was a disaster. In fact, still is, and I lost to that, but i'll go over that later.
Random notable calcs:
252+ Atk Tornadus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Oranguru: 136-160 (82.4 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tornadus Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aromatisse: 124-147 (59.6 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tornadus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 136-160 (87.7 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tornadus Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam-Mega: 135-159 (103.8 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tyranitar Rock Slide vs. +1 6 HP / 0 Def Tornadus: 86-104 (55.4 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. +1 6 HP / 0 Def Tornadus: 93-109 (60 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Kangaskhan-Mega Rock Slide vs. +1 6 HP / 0 Def Tornadus: 56-68 (36.1 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
The thing hurts more than I thought it would, and the +1 defense been also more useful than I thought it would.
I originally tried the old Tornadus I got from ORAS, which was Impish (what's a sync anyway). I ran a set with Tailwind, Z-Hurricane, Rain Dance and Taunt. Did not like the excessive passivity of the Poke, anytime I did not need Tailwind it felt like I was playing 3v4. Z-hurricane looked fine on paper but needing to invest Z-move to use it + would be unreliable anytime I couldn't set Rain Dance.
Version 2 was the one I caught in USUM, Modest, I used Wide Lens Air Slash as main move, originally also had Icy Wind instead of Taunt as it was sided with Lele (which, blocks Prankster Taunt).
It did look promising, but I ran into the predicted nemesis of Oranguru and Aromatisse, which I knew I had no realistic way to stop TR from going up, due to Taunt immunity + impossible to KO turn 1.... in fact the team I had ran in had BOTH, and I invested everything in killing Oranguru only to get Aromatisse show up next turn and get a impossible to stop TR up.
Looking around for options about Trick Room leads, I realized that Tornadus has usable attack and Knock Off significantly dents or 1HKOs all TR setters not called Aromatisse or Carbink, and Acrobatics significantly dents Aromatisse itself.
I've then started a bit of GTS lottery, I wasn't really going to restart USUM or ORAS to catch another Tornadus, so I traded a few until I ran into a +attack version. Adamant would be... better, I suppose, but I don't have the luxury to get one for now.
The first versions of Tornadus3 were completely itemless as the other lead was usually a Mega (Mega Gengar at start, tried Mega Pinsir as well a bit), then decided to opt siding for a Tapu, and Electric seed giving +1 defense at least gives Tornadus passable survivability vs Rock Slides and non-crit Stone Edges.
I also eventually ditched Taunt for Protect, as I realized my matchup vs Fake Out was a disaster. In fact, still is, and I lost to that, but i'll go over that later.
Random notable calcs:
252+ Atk Tornadus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Oranguru: 136-160 (82.4 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tornadus Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aromatisse: 124-147 (59.6 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tornadus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 136-160 (87.7 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tornadus Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam-Mega: 135-159 (103.8 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tyranitar Rock Slide vs. +1 6 HP / 0 Def Tornadus: 86-104 (55.4 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. +1 6 HP / 0 Def Tornadus: 93-109 (60 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Kangaskhan-Mega Rock Slide vs. +1 6 HP / 0 Def Tornadus: 56-68 (36.1 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
The thing hurts more than I thought it would, and the +1 defense been also more useful than I thought it would.
Tapu Paper (Tapu Koko) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Electric Surge
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam
- Grass Knot
- Volt Switch
This is really a standard event Tapu Koko with specs. Absolutely nothing special about it.
However, I noticed that unfortunately having a Choice user as lead does pose a grave problem vs Fake Out leads, it is unpredictable who will be targetted, and Fake Out + a lead that can threaten both mons or potential scarfers were basically the bane of this set.
While I do really love the Specs version, I am thinking to capture the yet-to-be-captured Koko from my UltraSun and Sync it as Modest, and run Life Orb instead.
I would lose some speed tiers, would drop at 114 speed tier and also lose a bit of power, which is a significant loss, BUT has some upsides.
1) I don't get Choice Locked, meaning I don't get punished for potential resist or immunity backlines.
2) I get to run Protect, which SIGNIFICANTLY improves my matchup vs Fake Out leads and scarfers.
3) Having Tailwind also allows me to be able to potentially Protect Koko + Tailwind turn 1, and even if Tornadus dies, I do get 3 turns of outspeeding the entire tree.
4) Even when matched with other 130 speed Pokes, I'm still not really wanting to take the speed tie, expecially as Aerodactyl threatens 1HKO, and Crobat can 1hko with a crit Cross Poison, so I'd really only be missing on 120 and 115 speed mons. And Noivern, but really who cares of Noivern.
I would lose Volt Switch, but so far I'm not convinced I do need it. Even when VS got a KO turn 1, i've often still risked to have the replacement murdered or statused by whatever attack was headed into Koko's spot, further problematic against Pokes that run BoltBeam or Surf/Blizzard combos, several of which I can't 1hko and aren't safe to double target due to Protect.
However, I noticed that unfortunately having a Choice user as lead does pose a grave problem vs Fake Out leads, it is unpredictable who will be targetted, and Fake Out + a lead that can threaten both mons or potential scarfers were basically the bane of this set.
While I do really love the Specs version, I am thinking to capture the yet-to-be-captured Koko from my UltraSun and Sync it as Modest, and run Life Orb instead.
I would lose some speed tiers, would drop at 114 speed tier and also lose a bit of power, which is a significant loss, BUT has some upsides.
1) I don't get Choice Locked, meaning I don't get punished for potential resist or immunity backlines.
2) I get to run Protect, which SIGNIFICANTLY improves my matchup vs Fake Out leads and scarfers.
3) Having Tailwind also allows me to be able to potentially Protect Koko + Tailwind turn 1, and even if Tornadus dies, I do get 3 turns of outspeeding the entire tree.
4) Even when matched with other 130 speed Pokes, I'm still not really wanting to take the speed tie, expecially as Aerodactyl threatens 1HKO, and Crobat can 1hko with a crit Cross Poison, so I'd really only be missing on 120 and 115 speed mons. And Noivern, but really who cares of Noivern.
I would lose Volt Switch, but so far I'm not convinced I do need it. Even when VS got a KO turn 1, i've often still risked to have the replacement murdered or statused by whatever attack was headed into Koko's spot, further problematic against Pokes that run BoltBeam or Surf/Blizzard combos, several of which I can't 1hko and aren't safe to double target due to Protect.
Smaug's Brother (Charizard-Mega-X) @ Charizardite X
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Thunder Punch
- Protect
- Dragon Claw
I was pretty amazed to come up with this one. I've spent so much time using Charizard Y that I had never found a realistic way to use X instead.
The mediocre speed tier of Charizard is always a problem considering how many things are faster and can 1hko him, but since this team has Tailwind, that is dealable with.
Thunder Punch backed by Electric Terrain acts as pseudo-stab that gets Tough Claws bonus and helps killing Water types and Rock/Flying types, as well as not getting Charizard walled by Heatran.
The main reason for using Charizard X so far is the type swap, though. Being Flying/Fire, it gives me a safe swap from the inevitable Earthquakes directed to Koko, and is one of the few flying (and dragon) types not weak to Ice. It can also eat Moonblasts and some Play Rhough before megaing. It's also not affected by Electric terrain on the swap, so has a few times baited Hypnosis.
However once it's on field, it also can bait the AI in using electric attacks on him, which he turns from weak to resistant, though unfortunately it still risks potential Paralysis. The swap from 4x to 2x weak to Rock also allows him to eat most Rock Slides.
He also mainly acts as Ice Type check, as its Flare Blitz 1hkos pretty much every Ice type on the Tree that is not Water secondary, while also being a phisical attacker not vulnerable to burns.
I am not 100% fond on using Chari X still, but so far it proved having just about what it needs for this one composition. Having Status protection would definitely help but so far I have not found space for it anywhere, sadly.
The mediocre speed tier of Charizard is always a problem considering how many things are faster and can 1hko him, but since this team has Tailwind, that is dealable with.
Thunder Punch backed by Electric Terrain acts as pseudo-stab that gets Tough Claws bonus and helps killing Water types and Rock/Flying types, as well as not getting Charizard walled by Heatran.
The main reason for using Charizard X so far is the type swap, though. Being Flying/Fire, it gives me a safe swap from the inevitable Earthquakes directed to Koko, and is one of the few flying (and dragon) types not weak to Ice. It can also eat Moonblasts and some Play Rhough before megaing. It's also not affected by Electric terrain on the swap, so has a few times baited Hypnosis.
However once it's on field, it also can bait the AI in using electric attacks on him, which he turns from weak to resistant, though unfortunately it still risks potential Paralysis. The swap from 4x to 2x weak to Rock also allows him to eat most Rock Slides.
He also mainly acts as Ice Type check, as its Flare Blitz 1hkos pretty much every Ice type on the Tree that is not Water secondary, while also being a phisical attacker not vulnerable to burns.
I am not 100% fond on using Chari X still, but so far it proved having just about what it needs for this one composition. Having Status protection would definitely help but so far I have not found space for it anywhere, sadly.
Hammerhead (Landorus) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Earth Power
- Sludge Bomb
- Protect
- Hidden Power [Ice]
This is just the same HA Lando-I I got from turskain like 2 years ago at this point. Nothing really special about it either, though I am not fond on Sludge Bomb in this moment, but again doesn't really have many other useful moves anyway.
So far I've really only feared two things: Fake Out and Scarfers.
Since Koko doesn't have Protect, basically any combination of Fake Out, potential Scarf and a threatening second active mon means I can't scout safely and I might have to risk Koko or take a swap and risk whatever comes in instead.
My current thought is to use LO on Koko in order to run Protect, but that'll mean I will need a different item on Landorus, or a different mon altoghether in that slot.
Attempts will be made, I suppose.
A few notable Battles:
89 - Victory vs Collector Sam
B6SG-WWWW-WWWS-3NJ7
I wanted to include this one because it was extremely close and ultimately purely down to RNG.
Lead was Aero34 + Pinsir34. I couldn't in any way come up with a 100% safe play. Pinsir could have been scarfed, and scarf comes with possibility of Guillotine into the Koko spot. Aero could have been Banded, and Banded 1hkos both my leads while speed tieing with Koko. Ultimately, I figured that I *needed* tailwind up to have any hope of winning, and at least Lando would not have been 1hkod by anything that could have been aimed at him aside from Guillotine.
Snorlax showing as backline basically accounted for pure panic, and it revealing Snorlax 4 was EVEN MORE panic, because, that ALSO boiled down to RNG: Fissure could have landed, Paralysis could have happened...
This battle was the first moment I started to think I really really needed a answer to being outsped turn 1, either due to Fake out or Scarf.
90 - Victory vs Kiawe
G5QW-WWWW-WWWS-3NYP
...and the battle right after I get to realize how much Fake Out is an issue.
100 - Victory vs Colress
6DJW-WWWW-WWWS-3NYB
Nothing special here, Pory2 is impressively predictable against this lead though. It always targets Tornadus.
110 - Lost vs Kiawe
PFAW-WWWW-WWWS-3NHU
And well yes. I could probably have played this better, and the "final nail" was Charizard losing the speed tie with Kangaskhan AND getting Flinched that turn. Knock Off landing into that Detect also didn't help
This just further shown how much I need an answer to Fake Out leads, because they really put me into weird scenarios. A-Marowak having potential to be L-Rod was just a extra nail in the coffin, because that prevented me from what otherwise would have been a moderately safe play (Volt Switch into Kanga + Knock Off into Marowak)
Faked streak, nicknames cannot be more than 12 characters longReporting a streak of 109 wins in UltraSun.
I got intriguied by watching Eisenherz run a typical Driflbim combination on his stream, so was intrigued to see if it was possible to come up with something comparable. The initial variants also featured Rain Dance so the team comp was mostly rain oriented or at least benefitting from Rain, but I realized I didn't really enjoy that playstyle much.
I've been through a few iterations, I think this is the most solid and I will try it again most likely in same version with minor adjustments, because it does look promising, and ultimately the loss was a combination of my misplay and a tiny bit of bad luck with a speed tie loss + flinch.
Smaug's Brother (Charizard-Mega-X) @ Charizardite X
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Thunder Punch
- Protect
- Dragon Claw
if you cant tell already im not being serious
I shall then henceforth name my charizard "Smaughter" haHAA :D
Something really stupid happened this morning: a team from the now-defunct Q.R.T.O.O. reached 90 wins, which is absurd when you consider the trash that made up the huge majority of that listing. But, it happened, so now at least one team from there will have achieved some modicum of success. I will go more in depth when I lose, but for now just know that this...thing made something good enough for the leaderboard:
https://3ds.pokemon-gl.com/rentalteam/sm/BT-4D54-A86D
(specifically, the Sylveon/MegaMence/Buzzwole/Azelf variant)
EDIT: now at 100
https://3ds.pokemon-gl.com/rentalteam/sm/BT-4D54-A86D
(specifically, the Sylveon/MegaMence/Buzzwole/Azelf variant)
EDIT: now at 100
Last edited:
Has actually anyone thought about using Ribombee as Tailwind setter?
Maybe like this:
Ribombee @ Focus Sash
252 SAtk/ 252 Spd
Tailwind
Moonblast
Pollen Puff
Protect
(Helping Hand)
Together with say Fake Out support there really isnt much that can prevent Tailwind from going up because of Ribombees great ability Shield Dust.
No secondary effects like Paralysis from Thunderbolt etc, no frost at all and no flinching so even enemy Fake Outs arent a problem. To really challenge Tailwind going up (aside from maybe some special cases i havent thought of yet) there need to be two Mons that outspeed/have Priority and flinching immunity. These Pokemon exist but there really arent many. The only thing that can cause troubles beeing alone is Crobat as it has Hypnosis, Taunt, SE attacks and Inner Focus. Sleep from Crobat is the only status that Ribombee can get before moving iirc.
Aside from that it does nice damage with its STABs hurting many Dragons and Psychic Types, helping to prevent TR in some cases.
And now be honest: Who didnt want to try out the unique move Pollen Puff in Doubles? For sure there are nice combinations with Dragonites Multiscale, Sturdy users, Water Spout or just some other powerful Mons.
Paired with a semi bulky Fake Out Mon with mediocre Speed who can take care of Ribombees few problems at Tailwind setting and especially Crobat
this may be an effective combination.
Maybe like this:
Ribombee @ Focus Sash
252 SAtk/ 252 Spd
Tailwind
Moonblast
Pollen Puff
Protect
(Helping Hand)
Together with say Fake Out support there really isnt much that can prevent Tailwind from going up because of Ribombees great ability Shield Dust.
No secondary effects like Paralysis from Thunderbolt etc, no frost at all and no flinching so even enemy Fake Outs arent a problem. To really challenge Tailwind going up (aside from maybe some special cases i havent thought of yet) there need to be two Mons that outspeed/have Priority and flinching immunity. These Pokemon exist but there really arent many. The only thing that can cause troubles beeing alone is Crobat as it has Hypnosis, Taunt, SE attacks and Inner Focus. Sleep from Crobat is the only status that Ribombee can get before moving iirc.
Aside from that it does nice damage with its STABs hurting many Dragons and Psychic Types, helping to prevent TR in some cases.
And now be honest: Who didnt want to try out the unique move Pollen Puff in Doubles? For sure there are nice combinations with Dragonites Multiscale, Sturdy users, Water Spout or just some other powerful Mons.
Paired with a semi bulky Fake Out Mon with mediocre Speed who can take care of Ribombees few problems at Tailwind setting and especially Crobat
this may be an effective combination.
It's one of those "good on paper much less on practice" ideas.
The issues comes against Trick Room (expecially pokemon immune to Fake out like ghost setters or Oranguru) and speed specialists (which do very often present the scenario of 2 faster Pokemon that also threaten both leads).
Having to use Focus Sash also means being vulnerable to status, obviously, expecially fast statusers and prankster ones (Hello Liepard)
While I do think Ribombee can have uses (one day, I'll get around using it), I don't think Tailwind is the use it should have. At least, not as primary goal.
I gave it a little thought before - Powder to block opposing Fire-moves seems interesting, but it's targeted at a single foe and can only block one Fire attack in a turn, not two. With Shield Dust Tailwind, Powder, and utility for the last two moves, I see potential for a unique support mon that matches up well against opposing Fire-types in spite of its typing. But I have no ideas for how to utilize this niche in an effective way - including Scizor on the same team sounds redundant and not that useful, and it doesn't seem to have much offensive presence aside from Helping Hand. And when being holed into a passive support like that, it's hard to escape comparisons to Whimsicott and Illumise which can have similar utility, but with Prankster.
Worldie:
Pollen Puff does 50% to Oranguru, almost any relevant Fake Out user can finish him then. Against Ghosts, well.. Kangashkan may be a thing or Incineroar for instance.
As i mentioned there simply are no Status users faster than Ribombee except Crobat, and getting Status by secondary effects isnt possible. Liepard and other Prankster Status users get Fake Outed.
There are only Scarf-Entei, Mega Gengar, Mega Alakazam (who may Trace Shield Dust), non Mega Lucario, Dragonite and of Course Crobat who (maybe) cannot be Fake Outed and can hit before Ribombee moves and therefore be a problem in combination (except Crobat). Some of them cannot even appear together, you even get Tailwind off against Gengar + Alakazam, no matter who is mega.
turskain:
Yes i knew as a supportive Tailwind user it had to prove its eligibility against Whimsi. Of course Ribombee doesnt bring Tailwind 100% safe as Whimsi + Lele, but thanks to its Speed + Ability its way more safe than just for example (non Prankster) Tailwind + Fake Out support. I thought about lolnubs team who used an attacking physical Whimsi to get 456 wins.
While missing Endeavor Ribombees offensive power really isnt as negligible as one might think. It 2HKOes for example any Lati@s set except Latias Mega (89.1%).
However i think Powder is too situational and as you say only against one opposer.
I think with some nice team mates its totally worth giving it a chance.
Pollen Puff does 50% to Oranguru, almost any relevant Fake Out user can finish him then. Against Ghosts, well.. Kangashkan may be a thing or Incineroar for instance.
As i mentioned there simply are no Status users faster than Ribombee except Crobat, and getting Status by secondary effects isnt possible. Liepard and other Prankster Status users get Fake Outed.
There are only Scarf-Entei, Mega Gengar, Mega Alakazam (who may Trace Shield Dust), non Mega Lucario, Dragonite and of Course Crobat who (maybe) cannot be Fake Outed and can hit before Ribombee moves and therefore be a problem in combination (except Crobat). Some of them cannot even appear together, you even get Tailwind off against Gengar + Alakazam, no matter who is mega.
turskain:
Yes i knew as a supportive Tailwind user it had to prove its eligibility against Whimsi. Of course Ribombee doesnt bring Tailwind 100% safe as Whimsi + Lele, but thanks to its Speed + Ability its way more safe than just for example (non Prankster) Tailwind + Fake Out support. I thought about lolnubs team who used an attacking physical Whimsi to get 456 wins.
While missing Endeavor Ribombees offensive power really isnt as negligible as one might think. It 2HKOes for example any Lati@s set except Latias Mega (89.1%).
However i think Powder is too situational and as you say only against one opposer.
I think with some nice team mates its totally worth giving it a chance.
After a bit more thought maybe a monotype Bug Tree team could benefit from Ribombee's Powder, and Tailwind support, as Fire-types would be a struggle for such a team. Volcarona/Ribombee/Scizor/Mega Heracross, with Firium-Z on the lead Volcarona maybe?
Thats an interesting approach, building a team around a weakness :D or do you take it as a monotype challenge (what about monotype challenges in general lol)?
The 3 Mons you threw in quickly may be the best for this purpose with Volcarona killing Steels, Scizor providing much needed resistances and Heracross really enjoying Tailwind, but making a monotype Bug team work seems like a much harder task like other types like Water or Steel
The 3 Mons you threw in quickly may be the best for this purpose with Volcarona killing Steels, Scizor providing much needed resistances and Heracross really enjoying Tailwind, but making a monotype Bug team work seems like a much harder task like other types like Water or Steel