BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[alkinesthetase]

So, what's the current deal with Terrakion? I haven't been seeing half as many of them latey for no obvious reason - the thing is as difficult to switch into as ever and is a common threat to almost every RMT posted.

What exactly can "counter" the musketeer monster truck?

wow i guess i've been getting all of them because every other offensive team i face has a freaking terrakion on it. solid counters would probably be anything that resists its stabs (of which there are relatively few - golurk is one lol), physically defensive bronzong or skarm (you take a lot from cc though so you can't always switch in), tentacruel (SE won't do shit to you in the rain but watch out for rogue earthquakes, it's happened to me before), jellicent (takes SE even better than tentacruel). those are the first ones that come to mind, lemme keep thinking. physically defensive amoong can actually go head on as well (everybody knows about sdef grasses, but physical defense investment works very nicely as well. you take fighting hits like a boss) and slowbro sneers at x-scissor.

sad thing for stall is that things like terrakion are quite easy to check but REALLY hard to counter. it's doable, but very tough.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

wow i guess i've been getting all of them because every other offensive team i face has a freaking terrakion on it. solid counters would probably be anything that resists its stabs (of which there are relatively few - golurk is one lol), physically defensive bronzong (you take a lot from cc though so you can't always switch in), tentacruel (SE won't do shit to you in the rain but watch out for rogue earthquakes, it's happened to me before), jellicent (takes SE even better than tentacruel). those are the first ones that come to mind, lemme keep thinking. physically defensive amoong can actually go head on as well (everybody knows about sdef grasses, but physical defense investment works very nicely as well) and slowbro sneers at x-scissor.

sad thing for stall is that things like terrakion are quite easy to check but REALLY hard to counter. it's doable, but very tough.

Why you would use Earthquake on Terrakion? To take things like Jirachi and Electric-types? (neither which are hit super-effectively by Terrakion's STABs) A neutral CC is only sightly less powerful than a super-effective EQ, and it still has redundant coverage with Terrakion's STABs. If Poison-types like Tentacruel and Nidoking prove to ble a problem, it's much better to pack something like Gastrodon or a Psychic-type.

 

[Jimbon]

I've also seen a lot of Terrakion around, mainly the lead set with Focus Sash and Stealth Rock. It's a fantastic lead for any offensive team being able to immediately apply pressure without having to run Deoxys-D. Focus Sash is great because it allows you to play recklessly with Terrakion which often disrupts the way your opponent plays. Taunt is also a pretty cool move on Terrakion, you can Taunt Tyranitar or Ferrothorn predicting a switch or stopping them from setting up Stealth Rock. You also stop Skarmory from being able to Roost which is probably the best reason to run Taunt on Terrakion.

Terrakion's moveslot is just pretty much Stone Edge + Close Combat + filler x2, except for the Stealth Rock set. There's really not anything else you need coverage wise, or even move wise, and Earthquake is just a filler to hit Tentacruel who otherwise acts as a decent check in Rain against Terrakion. When using Choiced and Life Orb Terrakion sets, I only ever found myself using Rock Slide once or twice, while the focus was on Terrakion's more powerful dual STAB. As a result you can afford to run whatever you want. I've tried Sleep Talk, Protect and Quick Attack in those other slots and none of them have really been particularly effective, apart from the one time where an Amoongus Spored me and I Sleep Talked a Stone Edge and critted him lol.

 

[alkinesthetase]

Why you would use Earthquake on Terrakion? To take things like Jirachi and Electric-types? (neither which are hit super-effectively by Terrakion's STABs) A neutral CC is only sightly less powerful than a super-effective EQ, and it still has redundant coverage with Terrakion's STABs. If Poison-types like Tentacruel and Nidoking prove to ble a problem, it's much better to pack something like Gastrodon or a Psychic-type.

all completely true, but when you're running choiced terrakion, what exactly are you going to run in the fourth slot? you already have stone edge, cc and x-scissor. rock slide is even more redundant and sacred sword is irrelevant when nobody runs defense-boosting moves. earthquake is just as unlikely to be used - ie almost no chance at all, but why not? it's still better than running nothing, in any case.

obviously if your terrakion is not choiced, there are a crapton of better things to be running than redundant coverage moves, but when you are choiced, you aren't exactly gonna be running SR in that slot

 

[TaBuu]

A sweeper that i feel is underrated and still quite effective since its debute is Reuniclus :)
it can take hits from some very hard hitters such as keldeo, and even tornadus,and set up TR or CM. Breloom is also someone reuniclus can take on.
i know this was kinda outta nowhere but yea... :)

 

[Pocket]

Rock Slide is nice on the fourth slot of Scarf Terrakion if Terrakion is your only reliable stop to Salamence, Volcarona, Gyarados, and Dragonite. For non-choiced, non-SR sets, Swords Dance, Substitute, and Rock Polish are possibly the best options. Not too sure about Protect.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Terrakion's moveslot is just pretty much Stone Edge + Close Combat + filler x2, except for the Stealth Rock set. There's really not anything else you need coverage wise, or even move wise, and Earthquake is just a filler to hit Tentacruel who otherwise acts as a decent check in Rain against Terrakion. When using Choiced and Life Orb Terrakion sets, I only ever found myself using Rock Slide once or twice, while the focus was on Terrakion's more powerful dual STAB. As a result you can afford to run whatever you want. I've tried Sleep Talk, Protect and Quick Attack in those other slots and none of them have really been particularly effective, apart from the one time where an Amoongus Spored me and I Sleep Talked a Stone Edge and critted him lol.

all completely true, but when you're running choiced terrakion, what exactly are you going to run in the fourth slot? you already have stone edge, cc and x-scissor. rock slide is even more redundant and sacred sword is irrelevant when nobody runs defense-boosting moves. earthquake is just as unlikely to be used - ie almost no chance at all, but why not? it's still better than running nothing, in any case.

obviously if your terrakion is not choiced, there are a crapton of better things to be running than redundant coverage moves, but when you are choiced, you aren't exactly gonna be running SR in that slot

Well, Earthquake is not as effective as it is appealing, even as a filler move that can defeat Tentacruel. There are just so many things that are immune to Earthquake, that if you are Choice-locked into this attack, you are giving your opponent a free turn.

I've tried many moves on this last moveslot, and all of them are just as effective as Earthquake, without this drawback. Rock Slide as you said can be useful sometimes over Stone Edge; Sacred Sword saved my team from being swept by things with Bulk-Up; Double Kick breaks substitutes; I've tried Quick Attack and it can be effective sometimes, but you rarely use it anyway.

In Ubers, I've tried even Stealth Rock. With Stealth Rock I was able to force switches and easily setup Stealth Rock, then switch out after. This opened a slot on my Forretress to Toxic Spikes, but now I am using Toxic on Terrakion and Stealth Rock + Spikes on Forretress. I've never tried Sleep Talk, but a common user of Spore, Breloom, can still easily kill you with its STABs if Sleep Talk pick the wrong move. Stealth Rock, however, is not very good, it opens moveslots on your mixed Tyranitar, your AB Heatran or your Forretress, but being choice-locked on this move is like using Earthquake. However, it's a good option if you have no other thing that can setup Stealth Rock on your team.

There are so many options for the fourth moveslot... Most of them aren't good, though. The best are these that I've cited. Most pokés suffer from 4ms syndrome. Terrakion has another syndrome: 4th ms indecision syndrome, or syndrome of "I don't know what I'm going to run on the fourth moveslot since I basically don't need it".

 

[jackm]

Actually, Reuniclus has trouble with Breloom. If Loom uses Swords Dance on the switch, +2 Bullet Seed (252+ attack, leftovers) deals a minimum of 79.95% damage to Reuniclus, assuming 252/4 with a neutral nature; that's only with 2 hits. 3 hits is guaranteed OHKO, as is 2 hits with a life orb. Even the bulkiest Reuniclus gets 2HKO'd at minimum by Bullet Seed w/o Life Orb.

 

[Ricky Horror]

A sweeper that i feel is underrated and still quite effective since its debute is Reuniclus :)
it can take hits from some very hard hitters such as keldeo, and even tornadus,and set up TR or CM. Breloom is also someone reuniclus can take on.
i know this was kinda outta nowhere but yea... :)

Breloom can jus Spore, switch out or take a risk SD then Bullet Seed away.

 

[alkinesthetase]

Well, Earthquake is not as effective as it is appealing, even as a filler move that can defeat Tentacruel. There are just so many things that are immune to Earthquake, that if you are Choice-locked into this attack, you are giving your opponent a free turn.

this is a good point. however if your opponent's running a stall team and his only solid terrakion counter is tentacruel (not exactly the best team building, i will admit... cruel doesn't like rak's stab stone edge), a good predicted eq on the switch suddenly opens the entire team to a sweep. you can switch out terrakion knowing that if you keep it alive your opponent's team will be saying goodbye. tentacruel has always been one of my absolute most important pokemon against terrakion. stall needs everyone on its team and one hole can be equivalent to a loss.

it's kind of like running hp ground on genesect except that terrakion actually has room for it where as genesect does not (but if genesect's HP ground takes out my heatran, lavos sun wins the game basically automatically). either way, if the coverage leads to a surprise ko, it will probably end the game against a heavily defensive team. it's just that terrakion has a moveslot that it can ditch on a crap move like eq where as things like genesect and venusaur can't.

and reuniclus isn't so hot right now with genesect running around smashing it with uturns. obviously there's more to it than that but it's not a great mon at the moment

 

[dice]

this is a good point. however if your opponent's running a stall team and his only solid terrakion counter is tentacruel (not exactly the best team building, i will admit... cruel doesn't like rak's stab stone edge)

This is a rather moot point, in my opinion. If you're relying solely on Tentacruel to check Terrakion that is not a very good stall player. Rain Stall where Tentacruel is commonly found often uses Latias, Mew, Skarmory, Quagsire, etc. to combat Terrakion.

It's kind of like running hp ground on genesect except that terrakion actually has room

I respectfully disagree. Terrakion lacks an actual definitive counter, but versus Choice-Locked Terrakion it's all about predicting around the STAB moves. Hippowdon is one of the most common Terrakion switch-in's, and no coverage move is helping versus that. Earthquake hits Tentacruel, Nido's, and that's about it? It doesn't slam any of the counters like Genesect does with HP Ground.

Hide

lavos sun

This makes me laugh every time.. haaahaaaaaahaaaaaa.

either way, if the coverage leads to a surprise ko, it will probably end the game against a heavily defensive team. it's just that terrakion has a moveslot that it can ditch on a crap move like eq where as things like genesect and venusaur can't.

As previously stated, it isn't gaining that many surprise KO's.. :/

and reuniclus isn't so hot right now with genesect running around smashing it with uturns. obviously there's more to it than that but it's not a great mon at the moment

Reuniclus can tank Genesect U-turns if not Band'd. I think Reuniclus is better now than it was in BW1 since Scizor isn't as prominent :)

You seem like a really intelligent poster

Hide

hi nice to meet you :]

but I do not agree with your EQ argument :[

Quick Attack is honestly very useful. Being able to pick off most of the offensive metagame around 20% is a lot more helpful in practice than on paper.

 

[kalamadude]

Someone up there mentioned that Terrakion is usually Close Combat + Stone Edge + 2 filler moves. I've found that the most fun set of his I've run fits that mold exactly - double dancer Terrakion. Close Combat/Stone Edge/Swords Dance/Rock Polish, Jolly, and I use a Balloon to help set up, though Life Orb could work to. What a monster. His STABs are all he needs really. A Rock Polish will let him rip through an offensive team as doubling his speed makes him faster than any scarfer and Chlorophyll sweeper. And a Swords Dance will rip through defensive teams since they waste a turn going to a check that will be taking twice as much damage as expected. And God help the poor saps that let you get both dances. What a wrecking ball.

 

[alkinesthetase]

aww i appreciate the compliment bri =P

anyway back to the discussion. on cb terrakion i agree with you that quick attack is the best. the priority will actually deal damage if you have a cb on and i would say that it is/should be the standard option.

on scarf though, my eq argument ultimately remains the same: if you're hardly ever gonna use it anyway, why not? it's not a good move to be choice-locked into, yes. there are not many things that you actually gain coverage on, yes. but your other moves are going to be equally niche. if choice is all about prediction (which in many ways it is), eq gives you an option with which to scare out opposing tentacruel when they switch in, guaranteeing the 2hko and forcing cruel out. rock slide and sacred sword will never do those things, nor will terrakion's standard stabs. certainly cruel might not be the only thing that risks switching in on your terrakion. maybe latias will come in instead and suddenly your eq hits nothing. but that was your own fault for mispredicting, eq was just an extra option and you could have used a different move on that switch. that's just pokemon for you.

i don't think it's the best option on scarf at all for the fourth slot, but it DOES exist and there are reasons to run it, because it adds coverage that rock slide and sacred sword do not. and in the end, i did say in my original post that earthquake is very rogue on terrakion. unfortunately it does exist and cruel users like myself do need to watch out for it

EDIT: oh and hmm on the terrak vs genesect ground coverage, you raise a good point. tentacruel, nidoqueen and toxicroak (i had forgotten about croak until ginga mentioned it below) are the only things that would otherwise counter terrak and get hit hard by EQ, and nobody's gonna run OU nidoqueen lol. my point in that post was mainly that you hit things hard with it that you wouldn't hit before. only in very rare situations can sacred sword claim that advantage (eg bulk up breloom) and rock slide will never have that advantage.

 

[ginganinja]

Actually, I run Earthquake a lot of the time, just because it helps handle the rare but ever annoying Toxicroak, which actually isn't such a bad pokemon in this metagame, harassing Politoed, Keldeo and Terrakion (and Tar I guess), is a fairly nice niche, not to mention that LO sets can use Drain Punch now instead of Cross Chop.

 

[dice]

Ahh, Toxicroak. I would run scarf Earthquake for that, yah, but on the banded set I still think Quick Attack is the superior option since you're 2HKO'ing Toxicroak with Close Combat, bulky ones after some prior damage iirc, anyways.

 

[Ames]

Someone up there mentioned that Terrakion is usually Close Combat + Stone Edge + 2 filler moves. I've found that the most fun set of his I've run fits that mold exactly - double dancer Terrakion. Close Combat/Stone Edge/Swords Dance/Rock Polish, Jolly, and I use a Balloon to help set up, though Life Orb could work to. What a monster. His STABs are all he needs really. A Rock Polish will let him rip through an offensive team as doubling his speed makes him faster than any scarfer and Chlorophyll sweeper. And a Swords Dance will rip through defensive teams since they waste a turn going to a check that will be taking twice as much damage as expected. And God help the poor saps that let you get both dances. What a wrecking ball.

This. This thing scares the shit out of me. When I see Terrakion in team preview I am already usually putting it at top priority of things to be aware of but they almost always seemed to be choiced when I come across them. If you don't have something which does over 75% damage to him and can outspeed, the Sub Dancer or Double Dancer are probably the scariest things in the meta. On the rare occasion that Terrakion gets that sub up and you are expecting to play around his stabs as your only line of defense...

You get the idea lol.

 

[Gary]

aww i appreciate the compliment bri =P

anyway back to the discussion. on cb terrakion i agree with you that quick attack is the best. the priority will actually deal damage if you have a cb on and i would say that it is/should be the standard option.

on scarf though, my eq argument ultimately remains the same: if you're hardly ever gonna use it anyway, why not? it's not a good move to be choice-locked into, yes. there are not many things that you actually gain coverage on, yes. but your other moves are going to be equally niche. if choice is all about prediction (which in many ways it is), eq gives you an option with which to scare out opposing tentacruel when they switch in, guaranteeing the 2hko and forcing cruel out. rock slide and sacred sword will never do those things, nor will terrakion's standard stabs. certainly cruel might not be the only thing that risks switching in on your terrakion. maybe latias will come in instead and suddenly your eq hits nothing. but that was your own fault for mispredicting, eq was just an extra option and you could have used a different move on that switch. that's just pokemon for you.

i don't think it's the best option on scarf at all for the fourth slot, but it DOES exist and there are reasons to run it, because it adds coverage that rock slide and sacred sword do not. and in the end, i did say in my original post that earthquake is very rogue on terrakion. unfortunately it does exist and cruel users like myself do need to watch out for it

EDIT: oh and hmm on the terrak vs genesect ground coverage, you raise a good point. tentacruel, nidoqueen and toxicroak (i had forgotten about croak until ginga mentioned it below) are the only things that would otherwise counter terrak and get hit hard by EQ, and nobody's gonna run OU nidoqueen lol. my point in that post was mainly that you hit things hard with it that you wouldn't hit before. only in very rare situations can sacred sword claim that advantage (eg bulk up breloom) and rock slide will never have that advantage.

I used to use EQ for my Scarfed Terrakion's fourth spot, and the only really big thing it seemed to help slightly was against like mentioned earlier, Tentacruel and Toxicroak. I almost ALWAYS run Rock Slide as his fourth slot, because you have no idea how annoying it is switching in on a dancing Volcarona and missing with Stone Edge, and even worse a Tornadus-T with SR damage that without Terrakion, can do a number to my team. Sacred Sword is alright too, but Stone Edge misses a whole bunch, and Rock Slide has helped immensely when it's down to the wire and I'm up against a Tornadus-T, Gyarados, and Volcarona, and can't risk missing that final blow.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

On my Choiced Terrakions, I almost always run Earthquake. If my team is severely Volcarona weak without it then I may run Rock Slide, but I like being able to hit Toxicroak who otherwise switches in on Terrakion with impunity. Although they're not as common, it also helps against Nidoking and Nidoqueen.

To me, Double Dance is Terrakion's most threatening set. It can use Swords Dance to rip apart your defensive Pokemon (SkarmBliss is 100% nonviable in this meta, stop using it), while against offense, it can use Rock Polish to outspeed the opponent's Choice Scarf Pokemon. Oh, and add on the ability to change moves, which makes it a little harder to force out than Choiced sets. SubSD with Rock Gem is also pretty threatening since +2 Rock Gem Stone Edge has a chance to OHKO defensive Gliscor after SR, and I think it destroys Slowbro as well.

...

Anyway, I think Gothitelle is pretty good in this meta. I use a Scarf set a lot and it can trap the likes of Gliscor and Breloom, while also getting off a handy Trick against the pink blobs (especially Chansey, thing's pretty useless without its Eviolite). Scarf Gothitelle can also trap and revenge kill slightly weakened CM Keldeo when running Psyshock, as well as Choiced Terrakion locked into Close Combat.

 

[Porii Sames]

Filler moves I use on Band Terra:

Quick Attack
X-Scissor
Sleep Talk with Superpower
Sleep Talk
Rock Slide

Tbh Band Sedge does enough to most things that EQ is niche for anyways, X Scissor is still cool for random Slowbro and Celebi to JUST push it over the edge. Sleep Talk and Superpower can be nice to absorb sleep, and as mentioned, Rock Slide is fantastic because missing is aggravating.

For Scarf, these are all good options as well, but with EQ gaining a couple more points and Quick Attack being useless. I never ever use Sacred Sword on mine though...

For a while, I played a Sand team that had Clay'd Screens (although the team wasn't based around Screen and Sweep) and I played a Double Dance Terrakion with Leftovers (Reflect + Light Screen + Sp.D boost from Sand + Lefties means that Terra can take a few hits easily, Lum woulda been cool too) with Close Combat and Rock Slide. Rock Slide is imo a very underrated move on Terra because Sedge misses are BS and Rock Slide flinches more than Sedge misses, which is insane. 3 Rock Slides do more damage than 2 Stone Edges, and assuming the 2 Slides hit, you're at a 60% chance to flinch at least one time, and with Stone Edge you have around the same chance to miss out of 2.

Terrakion is a beast blah blah.

 

[chimpact]

Terrakion is a huge threat, but im not too sure of how effective EQ is on a choiced set. I usually go STAB moves/Rock Slide / Quick Attack. Quick attack may be rarely used, but I prefer it over EQ, because when you do use it, it is very essential. EQ is just being greedy, because Tenta/Croak are hit hard enough imo. If you can't deal with them, your team probably needs a few changes.

Best Terrakion set though imo is the SubSD set. Substitute to ease prediction and protect yourself from revenge killing priority. It hits almost as hard as CB with LO but you have the freedom to switch moves.

 

[3v3rnoob]

I personally think that the scarf set isn't worth your time of day; Gliscor can wall it for days and do whatever it wants when you inevitably switch out. The banded set threatens Gliscor, but only with stone edge. If you manage to predict that Gliscor is coming in on stone edge, good for you. You managed to mangle Gliscor, but short of a crit, I don't think that you kill it. Gliscor takes most of Terrakion's moves like a champ and then forces Terrakion out with EQ, plain and simple.

 

[Joel]

I use Terrakion's Scarfed set, and most think that the fourth move slot is just a filler move, and rarely used. I agree with them, however, the move I use in the fourth slot isn't the one most use...

Stone Edge, Close Combat, X-Sicssor, Double Kick.

Yes, Double Kick is weak, but it does give you a Scarfer that can possibly break through a Sub, if necessary. Since it gets STAB off of the high attack stat, it isn't too horrible.

I still rarely use it, but I feel it's more effective than Quick Attack, Secret Sword, and Earthquake.

 

[ginganinja]

I personally think that the scarf set isn't worth your time of day; Gliscor can wall it for days and do whatever it wants when you inevitably switch out.

Just pointing out, I could make this arguement for basically any scarfed pokemon you want. Scarf Landorus for example, is walled by Skarmory, Scarf Thundurus-T struggles with Chansey etc etc. The entire purpose of a scarfer is to revenge kill shit that threaten to sweep your team, its NOT meant to wallbreak. If you think Scarf Terrakion sucks then fine, but you need to find solid evidence as to why it sucks as a revenge killer. There is little point in complaining that it doesn't wallbreak as well as you would like it too, when thats not the purpose of the set lol.

 

[3v3rnoob]

If you think Scarf Terrakion sucks then fine, but you need to find solid evidence as to why it sucks as a revenge killer.

I suppose then that I should rephrase. I don't think that the modern metagame is very hospitable to Terrakion, especially the scarf sets. There are a lot of ghosts and physical walls that can take 2/4 of your moves, which is not good news for scarfed OR banded sets.

If you're thinking of using a scarf set to check dragons, there are just better choices that don't get outsped by other scarfers with and with better typing (e g Genesect and rotom-W).

 

[peng]

Please name a physical wall that reliably beats Choice Band or SD Rock Gem Terrakion.