Definition of an uber

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This isn't a thread about tiering certain Pokemon, although I feel that the community may end up doing that, so please don't start bringing in certain Pokemon to this discussion. Only calculations, really.

Now a counter is, as defined by Jumpman's thread:

A counter must be able to both switch into the pokemon it's supposed to counter, with little to no risk to itself, and also pose an immediate threat to said pokemon.
So then, something uber, under this definition of a counter, is something that has no real counter. Wobbuffet is considered uber because of that-nothing can switch out of it to be able to switch something in to counter it. Something of yours will possibly die, guaranteed.

But then, another definition of an uber would be something that can have things switched into it to try to counter it (I.E. no Shadow Tag), but its stats, trait, and movepool will make nearly any counter (outside of an uber, or even an uber in extreme circumstances I suppsoe) useless. Something that can deal out enough damage to make a counter have less than 50% of its HP consistently, and live long enough to do it again. Moves like Recover would be useless because they only heal 50% HP at best, and this thing is doing over 50% of your HP anyway.

Thirdly, something is uber if its movepool is so vast, that it's impossible (or highly improbable) to actually guess what it's going to do to you. Now we all know what I'm talking about (3rd gen wise) but let's go ahead and assume I am talking about Arseus, whom I believe everyone unanimously agrees is an uber mofo. His movepool allows many different strategies to be used (phys or spec tank, phys or spec sweeper) and his stats (oh man, his stats) are the highest Pokemon has ever seen. He is an uber because even if you do find a counter, he probably has already wiped someone out, or has built up enough power to destroy your team.

I think that covers all of it. Once again, this isn't a discussion on certain Pokemon (except Arseus, who goes without saying is uber), only the definition.
 
In essence, an uber is simply something too strong/gamebreaking for standard play.
But see that's way too broad. What do you mean by "too strong"? What are the qualifications for it being "too strong"? I agree with you, and the list of 3 I posted kinda went into detail about it.
 
I always thought of an uber as a Pokemon who overcentralizes the metagame. In other words, gives you far less options for a team with good coverage if allowed. "No counter" is pretty broad and somewhat flawed in itself: look at Salamence. It has less options than Arceus, but with the three best sets it can pick (Dragon Dance, but more notably, Choice Band and Choice Specs) it can hurt anything in the game. Not to mention the Choice Band and Choice Specs set pretty much hurt about anything in the game anyway. The same goes to Tyranitar, Rhyperior, arguably Azelf and a couple of others. They don't really have counters, but they're not uber nonetheless. So you'll need a deeper definition.

It's hard to draw the line between an uber and a non-uber anyway, and since nobody ever agrees on the Pokemon themselves, I doubt anyone will ever agree on the definitions too. I mean, look at the Celebi discussion in the past.

Nonetheless a very interesting topic.
 
mekkah said just what i wanted to say.

an uber, in my opinion, is any pokemon that if allowed into standard play would reduce the number of usable pokemon by a large amount, making the game less interesting and diverse.
 

chaos

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mekkah and glen said what i would have said. if kyogre was allowed in rs for say, what standard team would be without it?
 
I agree with Mekkah - when I think of what constitutes an uber, I think of a poke that is so influential that if it were allowed in standards 8 to 9 out of 10 teams would essentially be forced to incoporate a specific counter for it. Moreover, it should be able to significantly affect your team (possibly sweep your entire roster or outstall everybody for so long you shoot yourself in real life) in a profound way even *if* you employ counters.

Obviously stats play a role in this. When someone busts out a 720 stat poke you're in trouble. But movepool (diversity/unpredictability) as well as type and stat distribution (same reasons) are huge factors. Essentially, it has to be decided on a case-to-case basis, it really takes time to build any sort of consensus over the issue.
 
mekkah said just what i wanted to say.

an uber, in my opinion, is any pokemon that if allowed into standard play would reduce the number of usable pokemon by a large amount, making the game less interesting and diverse.
This is the definition that I swear by, as I believe in having the largest amount of viable options possible in the metagame. Without naming any names, there are 2 or 3 standards that I can think of that considerably reduce the amount of viable options. But we'll see how that turns out.
 
All definitions of Uber are pretty sketchy and subjective.
Another intresting point is that Ubers are Ubers when compared to the "standard" pokemon. But are they also Ubers when compared to themselves? can the Uber metagame be as varied as the standard one?

Lets assume (partially incorrectly) that 600 base stat total is the barrier to being viable in the Uber metagame.
In D/P, there are 30 Pokemon with base stats totals over 600:

Dragonite
Mew
Mewtwo
Tyranitar*
Lugia
Ho-oh
Celebi
Slaking**
Latios
Latias
Salamence
Metagross
Groudon
Kyogre
Rayquaza
Jirachi
Deoxys-RS
Deoxys-FR
Deoxys-LG
Deoxys-E
Garchomp
Dialga
Palkia
Giratina
Regigigas***
Cresselia
Manaphy
Darkrai
Shaymin
Aruceus

* Sandstream effectively makes it have about 670 since it raises its Sp.Def.
** Shitty trait makes it pretty useless.
*** Even shittier trait makes it completely useless.

Given the fact that some pokemon like Blissey and other pokemon with less than 600 base total can be useful in the actual Uber metagame, we have a pretty long list of potential pokemon.
Can the uber metagame be as varied as the standard one? this is a big question, and it's hard to answer since the Uber tier has several problems, including that it has a very high precentage of Psychic and Dragon types. And where does Aruceus fit in?
 
To be uber you have these things

1.Sweep Ruthlessly.Everytime the pokemon is brought into play it must be threat take out at least half of a pokemon team with little setup

2.Make almost all pokes of its type useless

3.Its counters don't counter it,or vast majority pokes in the metagame don't counter it.
 
To be uber you have these things

1.Sweep Ruthlessly.Everytime the pokemon is brought into play it must be threat take out at least half of a pokemon team with little setup

2.Make almost all pokes of its type useless

3.Its counters don't counter it,or vast majority pokes in the metagame don't counter it.
Well, not necissarily sweep. Wobba and Deoxys-L didn't in 3rd gen. But also have almost uncounterable stopping power.
 
Well the three definitions I provided pretty much add up to that, don't they? If you have a Pokemon who demonstrates at least 2 of these attributes, then it reduces standard play to a few select Pokemon.

This is really what happened to the planets. There was no definition before, only an arbitrary selection of what is a planet. This is to clear up what an uber really is as objectively as possible (through numbers or precise definitions).

So then, a deeper definition would need attributes that constitute what an uber is, and possibly a certain number of said attributes would have to be selected to make a Pokemon uber. If we take what Mekkah said and see which Pokemon "overcentralizes the metagame," we would need numbers. Would an uber be a Pokemon who 1) Demonstrates a lot of possible movesets, 2) Have a limited number of counters (2, 3?), 3) Have a certain total amount of stats?

But then, if it has limited counters, does that include ubers? Because then the definition itself is circular. A Pokemon is uber only if only ubers can counter it? It doesn't make sense.

So then we'd have to consider base stats and movepool before considering possible counters.

So let's take Cromat's list which uses total base stats:

Dragonite
Mew
Mewtwo
Tyranitar*
Lugia
Ho-oh
Celebi
Slaking**
Latios
Latias
Salamence
Metagross
Groudon
Kyogre
Rayquaza
Jirachi
Deoxys-RS
Deoxys-FR
Deoxys-LG
Deoxys-E
Garchomp
Dialga
Palkia
Giratina
Regigigas***
Cresselia
Manaphy
Darkrai
Shaymin
Aruceus

We use this list a base to see who might be uber. We'd then have to consider what the counters are for each Pokemon. If the only viable counters for these Pokemon are Pokemon within the same list, would that make them even more likely to be uber?
 
The mentioned definitions are pretty good, but I think I should voice my opinion on a specific case.

Tyranitar.

Alright, just because its trait can easily be recalculated into stats, you can "prove" that it is uber powerful. But it isnt. It has HARD counters, it cant sweep ruthelessly, and if misused, it will hurt your own team.

Besides, if we calculate sandstream as a 50% incease in S.Def, shouldnt we count Intimidate as a 50% incease in Defence? How high stats would Salamence be at then?

The Uber metagame can be fun and varied, but there certainly is less variations there then in standard metagame. Too many psychic and dragons for example, and Stealth rock is just brutually effective against all the flyers.
 
Besides, if we calculate sandstream as a 50% incease in S.Def, shouldnt we count Intimidate as a 50% incease in Defence? How high stats would Salamence be at then?
is not fully correct as thare a little button called Switch who negates
Intidimate effect,and because
Jumpman16 said:
A counter must be able to both switch into the pokemon it's supposed to counter, with little to no risk to itself, and also pose an immediate threat to said pokemon
,so Mence counter switches in and Intidimate effect is Negated.
 
The problem is You have to draw the line somewhere. Chaos made a good point about how everyone would use kyogre, but at the same time, if kyogre was in the metagame, tyranitar would be pretty fucking useless. Now if we take away Tyranitar, you have practically every team with a Snorlax, take away that, and Jirachi and Raikou will devestate, and so on.
 

Surgo

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Mekkah said:
I always thought of an uber as a Pokemon who overcentralizes the metagame. In other words, gives you far less options for a team with good coverage if allowed. "No counter" is pretty broad and somewhat flawed in itself: look at Salamence. It has less options than Arceus, but with the three best sets it can pick (Dragon Dance, but more notably, Choice Band and Choice Specs) it can hurt anything in the game. Not to mention the Choice Band and Choice Specs set pretty much hurt about anything in the game anyway. The same goes to Tyranitar, Rhyperior, arguably Azelf and a couple of others. They don't really have counters, but they're not uber nonetheless. So you'll need a deeper definition.
As far as Salamence goes, it's only so dangerous until you figure out it's set. There are safe switches into a -known- set, but switching the wrong thing into a CB or CSpecs set means something will probably die. I'd say this is the borderline between uber sweeper and non - you can't switch something into it without dying even after knowing its set.
 
To be uber you have these things

1.Sweep Ruthlessly.Everytime the pokemon is brought into play it must be threat take out at least half of a pokemon team with little setup

2.Make almost all pokes of its type useless

3.Its counters don't counter it,or vast majority pokes in the metagame don't counter it.
Wobbuffet doesn't do any of these. Lugia doesn't either. "Its counters don't counter it" is impossible anyway.

The mentioned definitions are pretty good, but I think I should voice my opinion on a specific case.

Tyranitar.

Alright, just because its trait can easily be recalculated into stats, you can "prove" that it is uber powerful. But it isnt. It has HARD counters, it cant sweep ruthelessly, and if misused, it will hurt your own team.

Besides, if we calculate sandstream as a 50% incease in S.Def, shouldnt we count Intimidate as a 50% incease in Defence? How high stats would Salamence be at then?

The Uber metagame can be fun and varied, but there certainly is less variations there then in standard metagame. Too many psychic and dragons for example, and Stealth rock is just brutually effective against all the flyers.
Sand Stream increases actual stat, not base stat Special Defense anyway. Any Pokemon can be "misused" and hurt its own team in some way, namely by dying without doing anything. Hippo can be misused in the way you mean. And Tyranitar cannot sweep ruthlessly?

Intimidate isn't a 50% increase in Defense because it only works if Salamence comes in, PLUS it isn't the way Intimidate works.
 

Jibaku

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My original definition of an uber is a pokemon that has has powers/tanking ability beyond the standard line.

But the problem is, what separates the OU and the uber metagame? Is it just because the ubers are powerful legendaries? How is this tier thing set up? What causes the line? Isn't a Rayquaza in ubers equivalent to Dragonite in standard? What's a "standard"? Is the OU metagame created just so that Kyogre won't run wild? Or is it that ubers are near uncounterable?

It's almost impossible to describe. An uber is too uber for the OU metagame. An OU is too uber for the UU metagame. A UU is too powerful for NU, etc.
 
Interesting stuff! Being in England, no D/P and little experience of it other than reading, Ive been wondering what will be Uber and what will not.

I presumed pretty straight forward, old skool, anything bar Celebi/Slaking with 600 Base Stat Total Uber. However T-Tar/Dragonite/Meta/Sally have 600+? HmMm. Toughie.

I guess the only way to find out is through mass practice. Either starting with overbanning and re-introduce pokes slowly like T-Tar and see how they affect, or under, just ban the obvisous 'once only in-game obtainable' ubers (mewtwo, ky00ber etc etc) and then take away if neccessary.

A toughie. And interesting thread!
 
of course Mekkah, my argument is simply: just because you can recalculate Tyranitars trait into stats, does not build a case for "he is over 600 base stat, therefore uber".

Intimidate is the closest you get to a different trait that is possible to recalculate into numbers, you could cancel the sandstream or take advantage of it, just like you could switch out of intimidate.

Yes Tyranitar is a beast, but 4x weak to fighting is... bad, with the amount of sweepers carrying fighting moves these days. He isnt anymore uber then salamence or Gyarados in my opinion.
 
Phiphler, why exactly do you think fighting is exactly so popular these days? Yeah, I thought so.

Anyway just making a point. If you don't setup for TTar, you're going to lose, simple as that. But then again, if you don't set up for some pokemon, you'll lose anyway as well(and against pokemon that aren't so controversial). Anyway, personally, I don't care if TTar goes uber or not. He offers something to both metagames by moving and staying.
 
My post was totally overlooked. /cry

Edit: Oh because of a Ttar debate. Like I said, let's set actual rules for ubers first, then decide what's uber from there.
 
You cant set rules for who is uber without examples now can you? Just trying to discuss something that is a real example instead of some arbitrary ruleset.

You have a point in that part of Fighting's popularity is TTar, but look at the amount of things that can learn Close Combat or Focus Bomb, quite many.
 
You cant set rules for who is uber without examples now can you? Just trying to discuss something that is a real example instead of some arbitrary ruleset.
I don't understand why you would go against the flow of the topic and bring a specific example that is acknowledged as a controversial subject.

It's not arbitrary either. We know that the vast majority of Pokemon who have over a 600 base stat total are uber. If we start there we can get a specific definition for what an uber is. Then, we can knock off many as not being uber through those rules, and/or exceptions.

Not to mention that, I dunno, you can't label something as an uber if we haven't even made actual rules to it first.

So please, no side-debates. I'll ask nicely only once. ;\
 
Wobbuffet doesn't do any of these. Lugia doesn't either. "Its counters don't counter it" is impossible anyway.
I meant pokemon types(like dark,ghost) don't counter what suppose to counter(psychic types) or Mewtwo versus anytype dark type not darkrai.

Wobby can be dealt with too many ways taunt,status attacks, roar/whirlwind, explosion,dark pokemon,Let pokemon die and have gardy or duggy kill it.You can use stat upper+sub/recover/rest which are fairly common set ups and pp waste wobby until it is basically useless, because you are going to hit wobby with 6 stat up move which going is leave it in bad shape maybe even faint it.Wobby is very counterable,but uber annoying because to do scenario above takes like an hour or two try pp waste it and beat the whole team. Wobby just on sheer annoyingness should have been banned but is not uber.You could make case for deoxy lg and lugia who don't fit my definition uber but when you leave pokemon alive give them chance to set up which most of the time leads to losses.
 
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