Dexit discussion thread

Gameplay changes leading to spinoffs can allow both styles to be run parallel, rather than disappointing fans who prefer one of the other when the next game in a series isn't the style they're into. As an example, suppose someone significantly prefers 2d games to 3d games. An announcement of "the next Metroid game" would hold more weight for them because they can be reasonably sure it will be a 2d game (as distinct from announcing "the next Metroid Prime game"). The question then becomes whether Let's Go's mass simplification is sufficient for it to be separate. Because I love complexity, my answer to that is yes.
 
This makes no sense.

I strongly dislike Let's Go games, but let's no be childish to think they are spin-offs. They are remakes and no other remake was considered spin-off.
Heck, the Ultra games could be considered spin-off then.
Childishness has nothing to do with it? Let's GO overhauled traditional game mechanics in a way that makes it far more akin to, say, the Colosseum games, than other remakes like FRLG. Classifications like this are handled by the playbase in many other series, why should pokemon be the exception?
 
I was expecting them to cut like 200 Pokemon minus the Megas, alternate form etc, but they really went as far to remove half the previous gen roster. That hurts. Even Gen 1 Pokemon despite LGPE, a switch game, having all the models already.
I have also seen the leaked new Pokemon and I honestly don't consider those well done designs minus 2 or 3. There is no way I am getting this game even used.
did you actually want the entire gen 1 pokedex? I would have committed a hate crime if that had been the case
 

G-Luke

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I am hoping the lack of Legendaries and the hardest hitting Pokemon means the meta becomes more diverse. I am sad to see several of my favorites go but I look forward to the new Meta.
The exact opposite will happen. The few great mons will centralize the tier around them and form a monopoly of sorts. If you are nerf power levels, don't leave in things like Tyranitar and Haxorus, or they will just be on every single team.


Also I gotta say, not only are official tiers like PU and Ubers are either dead or significantly less appealing, but Monotype has taken heavy loses, with several types losing their entire upper viability rankings or losing very key niches that will be struggled to fit.

A list of mons is shown here
image0 (3).png
 
Childishness has nothing to do with it?
"I dislike those games and are angry now, so I will not consider that game because... reasons".

The battle in Let's Go still is traditional. And guess what, this is a forum of battlers.

Let's Go still is a Pokémon game in essence, contrary to Mystery Dungeon games or the PokéPark games.

Classifications like this are handled by the playbase in many other series
Never heard about this. Care to give me some examples?

why should pokemon be the exception?
Well, Pokémon is the biggest of them all. They set the rules, not the other way around. Classification like this are handled by the market in all other series.
 
The exact opposite will happen. The few great mons will centralize the tier around them and form a monopoly of sorts. If you are nerf power levels, don't leave in things like Tyranitar and Haxorus, or they will just be on every single team.


Also I gotta say, not only are official tiers like PU and Ubers are either dead or significantly less appealing, but Monotype has taken heavy loses, with several types losing their entire upper viability rankings or losing very key niches that will be struggled to fit.

A list of mons is shown here
Centralization is inevitable, the difference is that lower power levels means a whole new host of things are now usable, and more roles are opened now that there’s no longer stuff outclassing every other option, like Tapu Koko monopolizing the fast electric slot- now there’s choices of several fast electric Pokémon with noticeable downsides. Do I go with the fast and strong but very linear Jolteon? Or do you choose Galvantula, which is slower but harder hitting with Thunder and with a great secondary STAB and sticky web? Stuff like that, this cut does in fact make a difference. Tyranitar will be super common tho I’ll give you that, but that’s just TTar being TTar, been this way since gen 3. Thinking Haxorus is suddenly gonna be the best in the meta is lol tho
 
I've played showdown OU for a number of years and have never (not once) intentionally used a legendary or mythical on my team. It just somehow feels like a violation of the spirit of the games. It's been pretty hard to reach high ladder without them so it'll be nice to have the number of legendaries+mythicals in the meta reduced to, it seems, 2 or 3 TOPS? Greatly benefits my personal play style, though the only mon I use on a regular basis that made it in is Ditto, so it cuts both ways.
 

Codraroll

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Now, I predicted that they would simply cut everything but the original 151 and start over, so, I am atleast thankful that the reality isn't that.
That reality is called "Let's Go Pikachu and Eevee", but nobody played that. It would be interesting to see if the release of those games (and subsequently, the adaption of their metagame on Showndown) caused any dip in activity for the "regular" Gen VII metagames in here. We tried to make a review panel article on LGPE in The Flying Press, and basically got a response from absolutely everybody that they hadn't played either of the games. They completely failed to leave an impact on the competitive side of Pokémon or on hardcore fans in general.

I can see that a good purge would probably freshen up the competitive metagame a bit. Looking at OU statistics, an awful lot of the used (or even viable) Pokémon were either legendaries or Megas, giving the impression that competitive battling was all about using those special "you-may-see-one-once-in-a-lifetime" kinds of Pokémon according to the lore. The types of Pokémon you could actually catch and train during a regular playthrough were almost absent from the OU scene. It feels a little like Ubers did a few generations ago: Home to legendaries and a handful of exceptionally strong regular Pokémon to fill gaps between them. Standard play could need a little return to, you know, standard Pokémon.

However, eliminating all those Pokémon from existence is a measure that might help a metagame, but it's not good for anything else. It's like removing evolutions from the game entirely just to embrace Little Cup, or doing a game based on Pokémon Contests that has no gyms or battling beyond route trainers. Or one so focused on the collection aspect of Pokémon that the only thing you can do with wild Pokémon is to catch them to earn candy ... oh, wait.

As you said, the fact that there are so many playstyles is one of the great appeals of Pokémon. So the entire concept suffers when a game gets fewer ways to play. In the case of Dexit, competitive play gets a proper scramble, while your options for in-game runs are halved. The upside is felt by the marginal fraction of the playerbase that plays enough competitive to get bored of the current metagame (and who don't want to explore Other Metas with custom banlists), the downside is felt by everyone who has a favourite Pokémon or two from any of the previous seven generations of games. Moreover, that same shakeup of the competitive metagame could be achieved by implementing a simple banlist (OK, as banlists go it would be terribly complex, but you get the idea), without any of the downsides.

At best, the positive aspects of Dexit are a nice side effect that could be achieved in much less disruptive ways. And the negative effects are sorely felt by us all, simply because the games have so many fewer options than they used to. No wonder why most fans don't like the decision at all.
 
Centralization is inevitable, the difference is that lower power levels means a whole new host of things are now usable, and more roles are opened now that there’s no longer stuff outclassing every other option, like Tapu Koko monopolizing the fast electric slot- now there’s choices of several fast electric Pokémon with noticeable downsides. Do I go with the fast and strong but very linear Jolteon? Or do you choose Galvantula, which is slower but harder hitting with Thunder and with a great secondary STAB and sticky web? Stuff like that, this cut does in fact make a difference. Tyranitar will be super common tho I’ll give you that, but that’s just TTar being TTar, been this way since gen 3. Thinking Haxorus is suddenly gonna be the best in the meta is lol tho
No it just means the game is going to be centralized around a much smaller pool of Pokemon. Unless the 100~ new Pokemon are particularly powerful enough to replace the ones we lost we're just going to see a meta probably based around Band TTar + Excadrill or something. No one is going to use stuff like Galvantula or Jolteon as a special attacking electric type when you can just use an overall better Pokemon like Aegislash.

It doesn't mean lesser used Pokemon won't rise up to fill niches but that's all they will do. Fulfill niches. The game will still be centered around a core of strong Pokemon but now it will be significantly more centralized. I said this before but look at gen 3 OU. Only 27 Pokemon!

Also Haxorus gets trashed by Fairy types and Ferrothorn just like it always has lol It might be the best returning Dragon Dancer but there's no guarantee it will even be the best overall nor any reason to believe it's going to be upper tier at all.
 
At best, the positive aspects of Dexit are a nice side effect that could be achieved in much less disruptive ways. And the negative effects are sorely felt by us all, simply because the games have so many fewer options than they used to. No wonder why most fans don't like the decision at all.
While I do agree with you, there's one consideration that (sadly, as usual) I have to say.

Smogon doesn't exist as far as gamefreaks goes. All those metagames they ruined don't really exist.
The only metagame they're changing is VGC and Battle Spot, which will indeed benefit a lot from the new possibilities.

...that is, until a new CHALK comes out, i suppose. It's inevitable to happen, even with this huge power drop.
 

Codraroll

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Smogon doesn't exist as far as gamefreaks goes. All those metagames they ruined don't really exist.
The only metagame they're changing is VGC and Battle Spot, which will indeed benefit a lot from the new possibilities.
Then again, every concern I have about Smogon's OU metagame goes double-and-then-some for VGC. The overall point still stands, though. VGC usage has actually been limited by an enforced banlist in the past, which was much less disruptive than it being limited by the very existence of Pokémon.
 

trubbish

Banned deucer.
That reality is called "Let's Go Pikachu and Eevee", but nobody played that. It would be interesting to see if the release of those games (and subsequently, the adaption of their metagame on Showndown) caused any dip in activity for the "regular" Gen VII metagames in here. We tried to make a review panel article on LGPE in The Flying Press, and basically got a response from absolutely everybody that they hadn't played either of the games. They completely failed to leave an impact on the competitive side of Pokémon or on hardcore fans in general.

I can see that a good purge would probably freshen up the competitive metagame a bit. Looking at OU statistics, an awful lot of the used (or even viable) Pokémon were either legendaries or Megas, giving the impression that competitive battling was all about using those special "you-may-see-one-once-in-a-lifetime" kinds of Pokémon according to the lore. The types of Pokémon you could actually catch and train during a regular playthrough were almost absent from the OU scene. It feels a little like Ubers did a few generations ago: Home to legendaries and a handful of exceptionally strong regular Pokémon to fill gaps between them. Standard play could need a little return to, you know, standard Pokémon.

However, eliminating all those Pokémon from existence is a measure that might help a metagame, but it's not good for anything else. It's like removing evolutions from the game entirely just to embrace Little Cup, or doing a game based on Pokémon Contests that has no gyms or battling beyond route trainers. Or one so focused on the collection aspect of Pokémon that the only thing you can do with wild Pokémon is to catch them to earn candy ... oh, wait.

As you said, the fact that there are so many playstyles is one of the great appeals of Pokémon. So the entire concept suffers when a game gets fewer ways to play. In the case of Dexit, competitive play gets a proper scramble, while your options for in-game runs are halved. The upside is felt by the marginal fraction of the playerbase that plays enough competitive to get bored of the current metagame (and who don't want to explore Other Metas with custom banlists), the downside is felt by everyone who has a favourite Pokémon or two from any of the previous seven generations of games. Moreover, that same shakeup of the competitive metagame could be achieved by implementing a simple banlist (OK, as banlists go it would be terribly complex, but you get the idea), without any of the downsides.

At best, the positive aspects of Dexit are a nice side effect that could be achieved in much less disruptive ways. And the negative effects are sorely felt by us all, simply because the games have so many fewer options than they used to. No wonder why most fans don't like the decision at all.
Yeah, there are definitely better ways to shake up the competitive scene without cutting the dex, but a nice side-effect is still a nice side-effect. I doubt that the decision to cut so many Pokemon was done just to appeal to Smogon players, thats just what happened. It still stands that the decision was made, apparently, to save room and dev time instead of having to worry about 800+ Pokemon everytime they want to make a new game. Sure, there are better ways to achieve the nice effects this decision has on the competitive side (such a VGC style ban) but none of those address the main reason the dexcut occured in the first place. If cutting 300+ pokemon is the cost of getting up-to-date graphic styles and more balanced gameplay, then by all means...

All that said though, thats NOT what we're getting. The game looks really bad, atleast graphically, and they don't seem to be taking any strides on freshening up the on-cart gameplay. So that begs the question- why cut out the Pokemon if youre not going to use the freed up resources to improve anything? That is where my problem is.

Though, I am definitely always open to Game Freak doing whatever changes to liven up the competitive side, which is what I care about. Its just unfortunate that it has to come at the cost of other's enjoyment.

On top of all of this though, I am not convinced that less is always less. Older pokemon games had less pokemon then SW/SH currently has. Did having less Pokemon make them less enjoyable? It doesn't necessarily have to be that way. I feel the problem here is less of dexcut and moreso Game Freak's inability to design a game around it.
 
No it just means the game is going to be centralized around a much smaller pool of Pokemon. Unless the 100~ new Pokemon are particularly powerful enough to replace the ones we lost we're just going to see a meta probably based around Band TTar + Excadrill or something. No one is going to use stuff like Galvantula or Jolteon as a special attacking electric type when you can just use an overall better Pokemon like Aegislash.

It doesn't mean lesser used Pokemon won't rise up to fill niches but that's all they will do. Fulfill niches. The game will still be centered around a core of strong Pokemon but now it will be significantly more centralized. I said this before but look at gen 3 OU. Only 27 Pokemon!

Also Haxorus gets trashed by Fairy types and Ferrothorn just like it always has lol It might be the best returning Dragon Dancer but there's no guarantee it will even be the best overall nor any reason to believe it's going to be upper tier at all.
You are aware banning exists, right? Like, why would Aegislash, a Pokémon banned in both gen 6 and 7, be fair game this gen? If something is centralizing the meta to the point where you shouldn’t use anything else besides Band TTar+Excadrill(??) and I guess 4 other mons that counter them, then you should have faith in the system to fix the problematic elements. That’s why our tiering processes exist.
An OU of only 27 pokemon is fine as far as I’m concerned, given around 40 or 50 viable as it is in tiers with usage, there’s plenty of variety. Gen 7 has a lot of options but also a whole lot of limiting factors like Kartana, Ash Gren and Mega Mawile making team building fairly linear unless you want to risk the matchup. And citing gen 3 OU being similar as a bad thing is kind of ironic considering gen 3 and 4 (most comparable tiers) are usually considered some of the best OUs.
 

trubbish

Banned deucer.
I think this upcoming generation, the "traditional" OU would be more popular than the official OU. I can't imagine that the majority playerbase would be excited to play a restricted format like that, at least not long-term.
I disagree. People are still playing ADV and DPP to this day. And its not because of their overabundance of available Pokemon. I know showdown is planning on having a format with all the Pokemon, but it would seem incomplete to me. You'd have 400 or so 'mons getting all the new stuff, while everything is left to dry. Say a new physical Bug-type priority move with 60BP comes out. Who is to it shouldn't be given to Scizor? I think such a format will be popular once the game first releases, due to the desire of seeing certain cut pokemon mix with others, but I do not think many people are just dying to jump back into a metagame with Landorus-T again.
 
I think this upcoming generation, the "traditional" OU would be more popular than the official OU. I can't imagine that the majority playerbase would be excited to play a restricted format like that, at least not long-term.
I don’t see why not. A lot of players complained about the whole Gen 7 OU being one big matchup fest, where you simply aren’t able to cover everything because there are so many threats that are so stupidly good and that warp the metagame around themselves.

Not saying that there won’t be some top dogs in Gen 8 OU. That’s inevitable. However, having to concern about fewer potential top threats could lead to a less centralizing metagame. And if there are some Pokémon that are undeniably too good, they’ll be banned.

Though, we can’t say for sure. A lot of people believed that Let’s Go would have been a boring metagame due to its limitations, and yet it’s actually quite fun. I’d say to give to Gen 8 OU a chance before panning it.
 

G-Luke

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Yh i dont think we have to worry about Regional Dex OU being unpopular apart from pure spite (unfort the fanbase isnt easy to forgive)
 
I lean towards Monotype first, which means I have little intention of using the reduced dex. It has far too many roles reduced to one or zero options (in existence, not just viable ones) for me to think of teambuilding as worthwhile. Let's use stealth rock as an example. I will note if a new mon looks particularly likely to get it.
0 users: Normal, Poison, flying
1 User: Dragon, Grass, Water, electric, Fighting, fire (likely to get a second through Coalussus), ghost, ice.
 
You are aware banning exists, right? Like, why would Aegislash, a Pokémon banned in both gen 6 and 7, be fair game this gen? If something is centralizing the meta to the point where you shouldn’t use anything else besides Band TTar+Excadrill(??) and I guess 4 other mons that counter them, then you should have faith in the system to fix the problematic elements. That’s why our tiering processes exist.
An OU of only 27 pokemon is fine as far as I’m concerned, given around 40 or 50 viable as it is in tiers with usage, there’s plenty of variety. Gen 7 has a lot of options but also a whole lot of limiting factors like Kartana, Ash Gren and Mega Mawile making team building fairly linear unless you want to risk the matchup. And citing gen 3 OU being similar as a bad thing is kind of ironic considering gen 3 and 4 (most comparable tiers) are usually considered some of the best OUs.
Gen 3 and 4 were still luck and team match up based just like any other Pokemon game. Regardless of how "skill based" a gen is there will always be an element of control taken from the player. No one plays Pokemon competitively because they consider it a good e-sport they do so because of their own fondness of Pokemon. Killing half the dex for a shot at an arguably more balanced meta isn't worth it especially when multiple tiers like AG, Ubers, and monotype instantly vanish.

Regardless gen 3 and 4 both lacked the massive power creep of gen5+ so claiming they will be comparable in anything except centralization is false. Dynamax is basically a 3 turn Mega that used Z moves to attack. I don't have much hope for this gen to be "balanced" so likely the only effects of Dexit will lead to smaller available Pokemon pools. Dexit is just awful.
 
I think personally that Dexit happened at the wrost time, with the wrost precedents, with the wrost PR handling and justifications, and at the end of a series of half baked games.

We got 3ds games that could handle all the pokemon, it was said offhandely and includes beloved mechanics, and XY and USUM were pretty half baked, and SuMo still partially dropped a beloved mechanic (At least beloved by some) for a far more divisive and powercreepy one. (Not that Megas aren't powercreep incarnated, but Z-Moves can be used by everybody)

Seriously, the PR handling is so bad they deleted recently from the official youtube channel a USUM Advert about being able to transfer all the pokemon from previous generations; more specifically one about a squad called Pokemon Rescue tasked with finding old pokemon games to save the pokemon inside. Got saved here, but the deletion is only bound to simply add gasoline to the fire.

About the underlining question, if Dexit was good or necessary? I don't think so? Pokemon needs a restructuring, because it is a mess statwise and mechanicswise, with a large portion of mons useless and some horribly overpowered. But for the Textures? Nah. They might want to make them better, but they aren't the kind of textures that with the current system can be made better. Most mons have simply solid colors and little else. They might need a better upscaler or something similiar. And, oh, look: using neural networks to upscale ff7's textures to four times their original resolution, reaching roughly 720p. From a game relased in 1997. By complete randos on the net.

And yes, i remembered this tibit while i was writing this post. I am nearly sure that something similiar could be done to bring up to snuff SuMo Era Textures.
 
This discussion isn't really relevant to the thread but w/e, I'll answer.

"I dislike those games and are angry now, so I will not consider that game because... reasons".

The battle in Let's Go still is traditional. And guess what, this is a forum of battlers.

Let's Go still is a Pokémon game in essence, contrary to Mystery Dungeon games or the PokéPark games.
The battling in Colloseum was traditional too? I've never understood this kind of pushback, tbh. Everyone acknowledges the competitive battling scene remained focused on USUM. I'm not "disregarding" LGPE by not calling it mainline.

Never heard about this. Care to give me some examples?
I was thinking of the many discussions about mainline vs spin-offs classification in both the Zelda and Kingdom Hearts series.
 
Dexit has the possibility of creating mutliple metas in a generation.

If a remake of Gen IV came out and was limited to the Pokemon in that Pokedex, would we really be able to bring stuff over from Sword and Shield? ORAS and USUM always replaced the meta, but in the transition nothing was taken away. How would the meta react to a remake that was Dexit limited? LGPE wasn't really a good proving ground because it simplified the game.
 
Dexit has the possibility of creating mutliple metas in a generation.

If a remake of Gen IV came out and was limited to the Pokemon in that Pokedex, would we really be able to bring stuff over from Sword and Shield? ORAS and USUM always replaced the meta, but in the transition nothing was taken away. How would the meta react to a remake that was Dexit limited? LGPE wasn't really a good proving ground because it simplified the game.
From memory metas including VGC always use the latest released games. So like how in Gen 6 we had XY meta, ORAS came out and gave us new Megas and Primals we use the ORAS carts. In Gen 7 when USUM released brand new Pokemon we used those carts. If a DP meta came out I doubt given the backlash we wouldn't have all the current SwSh Mons + whatever they added for DP. Plus it would even more so alienate VGC players who didn't get DP games
 

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