which is, of course, assuming you're running a Life Orb Double-Edge set...
And, of course, you cant run chople berry AND LO at the same time. :p (lol just realized this)
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DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU
- Thread starter alex
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which is, of course, assuming you're running a Life Orb Double-Edge set...
And, of course, you cant run chople berry AND LO at the same time. :p (lol just realized this)
It's not. -_-
I'm sure someone will get around to updating that darn teir list at some point...
i lol'd
has crobat been tested yet, just wondering
Crobat is way to powerful for UU. Such a fast statuser/allpurpose poke would outclass almost all other leads in UU. It would overcentralize what people could start with.
Mamoswine is so defenitly OU its not even funny.
Mamoswine is so defenitly OU its not even funny.
Dont be so quick to condemn Crobat. Pretty much any physical version is walled by Golem/Aggron/Probopass, and even then it only runs off of a base 90 attack. Special versions run around base 70 special attack, and with Nasty Plot it loses its Hypnosis.
And I was told Max Attack Choice Scarf Mamo could 2HKO any physical wall, it's most likely at least BL. :p
Mamoswine is definitely BL. 130 attack plus a STAB combo that's not resisted by anything in UU besides lolskit, Stone Edge, plus good defenses and decent speed = BL for sure.
As for Crobat, I don't have a definite opinion but I'm leaning towards BL. It is walled (physical versions, anyways) by Rock/Steels, but still, it offers a lot of supporting options (it can do a Mean Look/Hypno combo for a free turn of setup and stuff like that) in addition to tearing up teams that don't have a Rock/Steel. The special attacker is somewhat threatening, but I haven't actually used it myself so I can't attest to it's effectiveness.
EDIT: Also, did we ever come to a real conclusion on Kanga?
As for Crobat, I don't have a definite opinion but I'm leaning towards BL. It is walled (physical versions, anyways) by Rock/Steels, but still, it offers a lot of supporting options (it can do a Mean Look/Hypno combo for a free turn of setup and stuff like that) in addition to tearing up teams that don't have a Rock/Steel. The special attacker is somewhat threatening, but I haven't actually used it myself so I can't attest to it's effectiveness.
EDIT: Also, did we ever come to a real conclusion on Kanga?
Don't debate as to what it can do in OU, cite examples of what it does to UU walls. Though I agree with you, its extremely powerful, especially when you let some Wet Rocker set up a Rain Dance and give Kingdra Life Orb. Hell it can even DD at that point for an extra Waterfall boost.
Kingdra is BL, and always has been.
Crobat's too much for UU, in my opinion. He has too many options at his disposal, and can run too many different sets. The CBer is capable of trashing most of UU with Brave Bird and U-Turning for predicting purposes. Don't forget that he learns the incredible Pursuit too. This guy is a bulky Dodrio with a sleep move and tonnes more speed.
He was BL last gen, but has gained Hypnosis, Roost, U-Turn, Brave Bird, Nasty Plot, Air Slash, Zen Headbutt, physical Pursuit and Dark Pulse in the transition to D/P. Where is the logic in that? Is a Stealth Rock weakness THAT crippling? No.
We talked about this just tonight, Lee.
Crobat can be physical w/ brave bird, VERY fast hypnosis or a devastating NPer. I run a special attacking Crobat on shoddy with hypnosis @ wide lens.
For once I can say that I have experienced a game breaking pokemon that isn't curse mamoswine. This guy is SCARY with:
@wide lens
Air slash
hypnosis
Dark Pulse
Roost
I have literally got more wins on my team from him than any other 'OU' pokemon. Revealing him almost always reveals some kind of weakness. A fantastic OU early battle pokemon; with that moveset he'll sleep and flinchhax you a win. I promise that...and I run a SS team with him!! For him to be of use there is kind of like heresey, as far as I know, but he works. He's one of my favorites. If you want I can elaborate on this...
Edit: BTW he's timid there...
Edit2: Sorry for this, I just remembered...everytime I see a crobat I think hypnosis and think "what won't I mind being asleep". Guess what? If someone were to hit NP or Brave bird on the switch, esp NP, it'd hurt...the later after an air slash.
edit 3: SORRY!!!! really I don't wanna double post. I just did some pondering. Almost all OU teams carry a Rapid Spinner these days. If you think I throw out my crobat against a SR in anything but "THIS GUY NEEDS TO BE ASLEEP" scenario, you are dreaming. SR isn't a threat cause you try to RS them early game. Crobat is an early gamer, especially the hypnosis/special attacking variety like I run on shoddy. This thing can disrupt team chemistry like you would not believe, PLEASE throw it in OU (okay AT LEAST BL but I find alot of success with it in OU..even in a SS lead team).
Crobat can be physical w/ brave bird, VERY fast hypnosis or a devastating NPer. I run a special attacking Crobat on shoddy with hypnosis @ wide lens.
For once I can say that I have experienced a game breaking pokemon that isn't curse mamoswine. This guy is SCARY with:
@wide lens
Air slash
hypnosis
Dark Pulse
Roost
I have literally got more wins on my team from him than any other 'OU' pokemon. Revealing him almost always reveals some kind of weakness. A fantastic OU early battle pokemon; with that moveset he'll sleep and flinchhax you a win. I promise that...and I run a SS team with him!! For him to be of use there is kind of like heresey, as far as I know, but he works. He's one of my favorites. If you want I can elaborate on this...
Edit: BTW he's timid there...
Edit2: Sorry for this, I just remembered...everytime I see a crobat I think hypnosis and think "what won't I mind being asleep". Guess what? If someone were to hit NP or Brave bird on the switch, esp NP, it'd hurt...the later after an air slash.
edit 3: SORRY!!!! really I don't wanna double post. I just did some pondering. Almost all OU teams carry a Rapid Spinner these days. If you think I throw out my crobat against a SR in anything but "THIS GUY NEEDS TO BE ASLEEP" scenario, you are dreaming. SR isn't a threat cause you try to RS them early game. Crobat is an early gamer, especially the hypnosis/special attacking variety like I run on shoddy. This thing can disrupt team chemistry like you would not believe, PLEASE throw it in OU (okay AT LEAST BL but I find alot of success with it in OU..even in a SS lead team).
Illegal movesets are still illegal, the only reason people are allowed to use them is because Shoddy hasn't fixed that yet.
Anyways, looking at Kangaskhan, it's really hard to come up with a real counter for it. Most UU walls are 2HKO'd by Return, (Torkoal and Quagsire can survive CB return with 252/252 +nature but the former can be 2HKO'd by Earthquake and the latter lacks a way to really threaten kanga, plus both are lacking reliable recovery) Rock/Steels are ripped to shreds by Hammer Arm or EQ, ghosts and Solrock are beaten by Crunch...it's hard to think of a real counter. Combine that with awesome (for UU) defenses and good speed and it's a real problem, especially in the UU matches I've seen. Also, since nobody's posted it for awhile, here's the list:
Current Discussion
Kangaskhan
Crobat
BL waiting list. The ones to be removed.
-Feraligatr
-Typhlosion
-Crobat
-Azumarill
-Ursaring
-Slowking
-Mamoswine
-Ambipom
-Jumpluff
UU's to be tested.
-Walrein
-Glaceon
-Pinsir
-Cacturne
-Lapras
-Ninetales
-Poliwrath
-Hitmonlee
-Leafeon
-Clefable
BL's with recommendations for movedown to UU or to be Tested.
Note: Weak recommendations are placed for historical purposes, so that we don't repeat say, the Miltank or Houndoom debate.
-Claydol (Very Strong)
-Cloyster (Very Strong)
-Torterra (High)
-Steelix (High)
-Drapion (High)
-Shedinja (Medium - high)
-Empoleon (Medium)
-Regigigas (Weak)
-Houndoom (Very Weak)
-Miltank (Very Weak)
-Flygon (Very Weak)
Widely Acceptable NFE's. (Debatable ones are in the other thread)
-Scyther
-Magmar
-Electabuzz
-Trapinch
-Poliwhirl
-Clamperl
-Vigoroth
-Pikachu
Non-obvious Banned NFEs (AKA, BL)
Snover
Hippopatas
(I dumped Leafeon into "to be tested", since IIRC nobody had any major objections)
Crobat is just plain hideous. he causes SO MANY switches and counters the ever present fighting type threat. Like I said, everyone switches when they see him; a nasty plotter could take advantage. He single handledly derails a great deal of teams strategies and interferes with the flow of battle for the opposing team like you wouldn't believe.
As soon as you see him Nasty Plot, you know you are free from Hypnosis and thus comp-stomp him into the ground with your special wall. Hell, Blissey stops him cold in his tracks.
Unless the 'Bat invests heavily into Atk or uses a LO, he won't be able to 2HKO the fat egg with BB. And that's to say nothing of the fact that he will kill himself with Recoil if he uses Brave Bird. Blissey's Ice Beam will OHKO 'Bat after a single Brave Bird recoil.
Without the high BP of Brave Bird, 'Bat won't be able to break the 3HKO mark to stop Bliss from Softboiling you to death.
The best set for him that I've used has got to be:
Hypnosis,
U-turn,
Taunt,
Brave Bird
@ Lefties.
Counters Infernape pretty well, is a great lead in general, Taunts to screw up stall and baton pass teams, and spends most of his time U-turning on switches to give favorable matchups.
His defenses are mostly ignored despite being able to switch in on Grass, Ground, and Fighting moves every day of the week. As for the argument of tier placement, just look at his usage and see how BL he is.
Unless the 'Bat invests heavily into Atk or uses a LO, he won't be able to 2HKO the fat egg with BB. And that's to say nothing of the fact that he will kill himself with Recoil if he uses Brave Bird. Blissey's Ice Beam will OHKO 'Bat after a single Brave Bird recoil.
Without the high BP of Brave Bird, 'Bat won't be able to break the 3HKO mark to stop Bliss from Softboiling you to death.
The best set for him that I've used has got to be:
Hypnosis,
U-turn,
Taunt,
Brave Bird
@ Lefties.
Counters Infernape pretty well, is a great lead in general, Taunts to screw up stall and baton pass teams, and spends most of his time U-turning on switches to give favorable matchups.
His defenses are mostly ignored despite being able to switch in on Grass, Ground, and Fighting moves every day of the week. As for the argument of tier placement, just look at his usage and see how BL he is.
Feel free to run numbers, but a modest/maxSpA NP Dark Pulse fails to 2HKO on average (though there's a slight chance) max/max Hypno while a neutral/minSpA Psychic does easily 60% damage to that min/min Crobat.
So in other words, 'Bat is fucked by Hypno. If it doesn't NP, it doesn't stand a chance, even if it does, it can die easily in a Dark Pulse v. Psychic war. Please please please check damage calculations firsthand.
So in other words, 'Bat is fucked by Hypno. If it doesn't NP, it doesn't stand a chance, even if it does, it can die easily in a Dark Pulse v. Psychic war. Please please please check damage calculations firsthand.
Timid Nasty Plot Life Orb Dark Pulse vs max/max Calm Hypno = 53.74% - 63.37%. Crobat doesn't even neccesarily need to run Timid in UU, so he could very well go Modest and hit for 58.82% - 69.25%.
And if Hypno mispredicts, he runs the risk of taking 82.35% - 97.06% from a CB Brave Bird. There are no Cresselia's or Suicunes in UU - there just isn't any mixed walls who can determine Crobat's set without risking their own lives.
/discussion
And if Hypno mispredicts, he runs the risk of taking 82.35% - 97.06% from a CB Brave Bird. There are no Cresselia's or Suicunes in UU - there just isn't any mixed walls who can determine Crobat's set without risking their own lives.
/discussion
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