this exactly this. DO WE WANT A GAME with a stupid move(sorry for the s word) that chipps off 50% of a pokemon everytime he goes in?I would say the damage stealth rock does to 2x or 4x is too much. Chipping 50% hp off my Charizard is nonsense.
this exactly this. DO WE WANT A GAME with a stupid move(sorry for the s word) that chipps off 50% of a pokemon everytime he goes in?I would say the damage stealth rock does to 2x or 4x is too much. Chipping 50% hp off my Charizard is nonsense.
My point is, that stealth rock is such an integral game mechanic. Entry hazards have been out since gen2, and stealth rock is just an addition to this concept. When one realizes that the concept of entry hazards has been around for so long it can be defined as an integral part of the metagame. It's part of what makes the pokemon metagame as a whole unique, and hazards have defined the metagame for so long. It's part of what makes pokemon different from other turn based games. Because of this, stealth rock and hazards can be looked upon as being an integral part of the metagame, similar to mechanics such as status and even as an added component of switching. It is obvious that we can't just ban status, because no matter how useful or centralizing it is, it defines our metagame. This is why we only restricted sleep with sleep clause instead of banning it completely. The same can be said about stealth rock. It is centralizing, but can be looked upon as an integral part of our metagame due to how long the concept of hazards has existed.This is what makes the argument of overcentralization so subjective(and therefore pointless), because many people look at stealth rock as a metagame definer since been in competitive pokemon since gen2, which justifies centralization around it.Do I really need to say more? If we've come to the point where SR is considered ESSENTIAL, then I do not honestly know what to say. I mean yes, I know what lokt was replying to, but assuming your opponent's Pokemon has 4 moves is just common sense.
EDIT: *Sigh* Really, Ditto OBVIOUSLY won't have 4 moves without Imposter activated and Last Resort mons are gimmicks anyways :/
Charizard was never OU. It was UU in RBY, BL in both GSC and ADV, and NU in both DPP and BW. Charizard doesn't exactly have a legacy of being a fantastic Pokemon that was suddenly crippled by the arrival of Stealth Rock.It single-handedly sent Charizard from OU to UU from ADV to DPP, then to NU in BW2.
I'm sure this has been addressed multiple times already, but this argument is just ridiculous. Stealth Rock is a move, not an integral game mechanic. The only reason you view it as being an integral game mechanic is due to its presence on virtually every team, which is due to its incredible power. The metagame is not "supposed" to be centralized around it, any more than it is "supposed" to be centralized around Kyogre, and somehow I don't see anyone arguing that that should be OU. Again, all this argument comes down to is "this is the way we've done things in the past, so we should keep on doing that".My point is, that stealth rock is such an integral game mechanic. Entry hazards have been out since gen2, and stealth rock is just an addition to this concept. When one realizes that the concept of entry hazards has been around for so long it can be defined as an integral part of the metagame. It's part of what makes the pokemon metagame as a whole unique, and hazards have defined the metagame for so long. It's part of what makes pokemon different from other turn based games. Because of this, stealth rock and hazards can be looked upon as being an integral part of the metagame, similar to mechanics such as status and even as an added component of switching. It is obvious that we can't just ban status, because no matter how useful or centralizing it is, it defines our metagame. This is why we only restricted sleep with sleep clause instead of banning it completely. The same can be said about stealth rock. It is centralizing, but can be looked upon as an integral part of our metagame due to how long the concept of hazards has existed.This is what makes the argument of overcentralization so subjective(and therefore pointless), because many people look at stealth rock as a metagame definer since been in competitive pokemon since gen2, which justifies centralization around it.
When you say, we are considering it "essential" and saying(implying) it must be banned, this is subjective because as a metagame definer and mechanic, the metagame is supposed to be centralized around it. It's similar to switching, in that the game is centralized around it, but it defines the metagame, making that ok.
well it's still pretty high ou tier due to sheer devastating power once it gets a boost but it's a lot easier to get to +2 and clean sweep from 100% than it is from 50%. the presence of rocks hinders volcarona severely. i don't think viability was the word i should have used...maybe i ought to have said that rocks harm volc's efficiency? that sounds a bit better. hopefully everyone understands what i meanVolc really isn't something that's being hurt in viability with Rocks. It's in the same boat as DNite. Ubers residency stuff that's being dragged down by SR.
You're right on Moltres though
The first thing I’d like for you to understand is that this is not an argument that is meant to prove stealth rock banworthy or not. It is an explanation for why overcentralization alone is not a valid argument for a stealth rock ban. You state that stealth rock is a move and not a game mechanic. Yet the move is what activates the concept of entry hazards. I’m not saying that this is a mechanic or not, but it can be viewed as one. Let’s compare this to the move spore. While the move isn’t a mechanic, it activates the mechanic of sleep. And what did smogon do with spore? They implemented a clause to prevent it from becoming overpowering instead of straight up banning the move. Now I’ll talk about your comparison of Drizzle in the metagame. If you look at smogon’s record of bans in bw, you would realize that drizzle was never suspected, except near the very beginning of the metagame, when the metagame itself was created and being defined. Don’t you realize that there was a reason that smogon didn’t just ban drizzle and instead banned tornadus-t, manaphy, and swift-swimmers? The OU council has obviously decided that weather abilities could be seen as an “integral” part of the metagame and decided to nerf weather (similar to sleep clause nerfing sleep) instead of just outright banning it.I'm sure this has been addressed multiple times already, but this argument is just ridiculous. Stealth Rock is a move, not an integral game mechanic. The only reason you view it as being an integral game mechanic is due to its presence on virtually every team, which is due to its incredible power. The metagame is not "supposed" to be centralized around it, any more than it is "supposed" to be centralized around Kyogre, and somehow I don't see anyone arguing that that should be OU. Again, all this argument comes down to is "this is the way we've done things in the past, so we should keep on doing that".
Think about this quote both ways, and you will realize that it's a paradox, which is what makes the argument of over-centralization subjective.George Eliot said:The only reason you view it as being an integral game mechanic is due to its presence on virtually every team
I would run Moltres on the majority of my teams if there were no stealth rocks. Giving it both fire blast and hurricane provides excellent use both in sun and in rain. It can also comfortably swap into the majority of pokemon found on sun teams (venusaur, ninetales, forretress, ...,). If Politoed wants to 'rain' on your parade you can still use Hurricane with 100% accuracy off an enormous sp.atk and STAB.What I've always liked about Stealth Rock was its almost guaranteed ability to get rid of Focus Sashes and provide residual damage. Too many things are immune to Spikes, and Spikes just takes too much time to get up. I really think Stealth Rock, though it may punish a few Pokemon rather severely, is beneficial to the metagame in the end, and the Pokemon it pushes from OU to UU were more niche than people may believe and wouldn't make all that much of an impact on the metagame
Let's not forget that Moltres can counter Sheer Force Landorus, the biggest threat in the current metagame, giving it use against all three types of weather (four, even, since it wrecks hail too)Moltres would be amazing without stealth rocks. It's things like these which make me sad:
I would run Moltres on the majority of my teams if there were no stealth rocks. Giving it both fire blast and hurricane provides excellent use both in sun and in rain. It can also comfortably swap into the majority of pokemon found on sun teams (venusaur, ninetales, forretress, ...,). If Politoed wants to 'rain' on your parade you can still use Hurricane with 100% accuracy off an enormous sp.atk and STAB.
I'd like to say that Stealth Rock is more problematic because the Pokemon it weakens are all centralized around a group of types. The other moves you brought up tend to cover broad ranges; Stealth Rock specifically picks on certain types and excludes others.You have to draw the line some where, sure Charizard and Moltres could be more useful in an SR free meta, but then I could argue other pokemon could be more useful in a meta free of other moves (as discussed above).