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Could you tell me which of Pokemon below would be a better for third spot and which items/moves/abilities i should choose? (i marked with green those I'm not sure of)
Heracross @ Lum Berry/Choice Band
Ability: Guts/Swarm
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Megahorn
- Rock Slide
- Brick Break
- Hidden Power Ghost/Swords Dance
Slaking @ Choice Band
Ability: Truant
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Hyper Beam/Return
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power Ghost
- Focus Punch/Return
Could you tell me which of Pokemon below would be a better for third spot and which items/moves/abilities i should choose? (i marked with green those I'm not sure of)
Heracross @ Lum Berry/Choice Band
Ability: Guts/Swarm
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Megahorn
- Rock Slide
- Brick Break
- Hidden Power Ghost/Swords Dance
Slaking @ Choice Band
Ability: Truant
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Hyper Beam/Return
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power Ghost
- Focus Punch/Return
I would say Slaking considering that its Fighting weakness is covered by both Starmie and Salamnce. Also, don't use a Timid nature Starmie. It sucks really hard on this Gen and without any items that can boost its Special Attack, it's mediocre at best. It fails to even OHKO 252 HP Armaldo at full health, so use a Modest Starmie instead.
Could you tell me which of Pokemon below would be a better for third spot and which items/moves/abilities i should choose? (i marked with green those I'm not sure of)
Heracross @ Lum Berry/Choice Band
Ability: Guts/Swarm
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Megahorn
- Rock Slide
- Brick Break
- Hidden Power Ghost/Swords Dance
Slaking @ Choice Band
Ability: Truant
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Hyper Beam/Return
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power Ghost
- Focus Punch/Return
Im gonna echo what Kommo-o has already said and just add a little bit more so apologies for the text wall. Modest is a must in gen 3 for Starmie, as lack of expert belt means you cannot run timid nature. I wont go on about that anymore since Kommo-o said it perfectly. However I want to add please run surf over hydro pump, the 110 BP is not worth the 80 accuracy in the Frontier, especially on a pokemon like Starmie that cannot eat hits. The RNG in the frontier is so against you that it will make it miss that move when it really counts, so trust me 90 BP 100% accurate surf is way better and pretty much finishes up your bread and butter Starmie. Last thing about Starmie tho, dont run lefties on it imo, its not worth it when that item would be better on your Salamence and its Lum Berry on Starmie. Being able to heal a potential crippling paralysis on Starmie in a critical moment is better then some HP back on it. Make those changes and its good to go
On Slaking, the moveset can more or less depend on level. Are you running level 50 or Open Level? I run Open Level and on my Slaking I run Hyper Beam, EQ, Shadow Ball and Brick Break. Brick Break is really only there to kill Ttar since its only in Open Level, and this is where I add please dont run Focus Punch. Its just not worth the effort of clicking it, the opponent smacking you, you lose focus then truant next turn effectively wasting a turn. And choice banded focus punch slaking is a big yikes in Frontier because im pretty sure the AI will be smart to hit you every time you try to use that move, and fighting type coverage is not as much needed as you might think on Slaking. Without a sub on Slaking or a spore user to help set it up somehow, focus punch is worthless on Slaking. I never run return on Slaking because compared to Hyper Beam and Double Edge, its just not worth it. I'm assuming you want to run hidden power ghost because you have used your shadow ball tm? If not use the cloning glitch to have lots of shadow ball tms and use one on Slaking. Also since you want Golds, Slaking slays the Dome for me with the Hyper Beam, EQ, Shadow Ball and Brick Break moveset, so when you get to Dome do not be afraid to lead with it, its stupid how good it is there.
Also for Heracross I always suggest Guts over Swarm when using choice band simply because swarm only will benefit Megahorn when on low HP, whereas guts will benefit everything when suffering, no matter what you are choiced into. Also I generally run EQ in the last slot, but maybe hidden power ghost is fine to run as well. Obviously not SD if you run choiced, which imo is the way to go on Heracross
Breloom is cool, and I personally plan to use it sometime, but out of the three you have here its the one I suggest the least. Its pretty much a one trick pony with this set which is cool, and you got the Spore to set up Focus Punches, I just dont know how far it would get you.
In the end I have to again agree with Kommo-o and say that out of the three Slaking would pair the best with DDMence and Starmie.
Again sorry for the long wall of text, just wanna do my best to help out since I love the frontier and since im pretty familiar with all these Pokemon as well. And I wish you luck on destroying the Frontier!
Thanks guys it's very informative. I'm running level 50 and I will pick Slaking as you both recommended:
Slaking @ Choice Band
Ability: Truant
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Hyper Beam
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power Ghost
- ???
Could you suggest the last move for him? The problem is that I used both Shadow Ball and Aerial Ace. I can think of Brick Break but without Tyranitar it will be only good for Normal and Ice which also get hit hard by stab Hyper Beam (but it prevents switching). Another option is Return which would still allow me to OHK frailer Pokemon and switch after that. Any other ideas?
Thanks guys it's very informative. I'm running level 50 and I will pick Slaking as you both recommended:
Slaking @ Choice Band
Ability: Truant
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Hyper Beam
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power Ghost
- ???
Could you suggest the last move for him? The problem is that I used both Shadow Ball and Aerial Ace. I can think of Brick Break but without Tyranitar it will be only good for Normal and Ice which also get hit hard by stab Hyper Beam (but it prevents switching). Another option is Return which would still allow me to OHK frailer Pokemon and switch after that. Any other ideas?
It can definitely depend on facility, like Dome for example where you can see your opponents pokemon before hand and then choose what you lead with every time based on what they have. Then places like Arena make it so you cannot switch until your pokemon is knocked out, so that one you have to plan for accordingly. If we talk about just the Tower alone, I would say lead between Slaking or Salamence. Slaking lead might not be bad if you want to get a quick KO and then switch into Mence and get an intimidate off on the next mon. Really it comes down to your preference and after playing the team a bit in the facilities to see how it handles. For Battle Pike I do suggest leading Starmie so you can run away from the wild encounters easily, and also because I find it to be a nice lead in that facility. Dome you will pretty much almost always lead Slaking since it nukes everything with Hyper beam. The team should do pretty well in all the facilities if you just want Golds and nothing else like say super long streaks.
Oh and when you do Factory I recommend doing Open Level just because the Pokemon have better movesets and are not garbage like level 50. Although I have gotten Silver on level 50, its just annoying to do.
Palace will most likely be the most annoying facility you face, but then again its annoying for just about anyone who faces Palace no matter the team. Just encase for any extra pokemon you might need to breed for the Palace with different natures (palace is weird about this trust me) you still might wanna use the clone glitch just encase to get extras of all the TMs you have leftover
Overall though you should be pretty good to go through and see how everything meshes well, Im glad to help out as well
Thanks guys it's very informative. I'm running level 50 and I will pick Slaking as you both recommended:
Slaking @ Choice Band
Ability: Truant
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Hyper Beam
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power Ghost
- ???
Could you suggest the last move for him? The problem is that I used both Shadow Ball and Aerial Ace. I can think of Brick Break but without Tyranitar it will be only good for Normal and Ice which also get hit hard by stab Hyper Beam (but it prevents switching). Another option is Return which would still allow me to OHK frailer Pokemon and switch after that. Any other ideas?
Tyranitar and Dragonite do not show up on Level 50. If anything, Brick Break's utility comes from being able to damage Umbreon and Blissey super-effectively without relying on Double Edge and it's recoil penalty. Also, don't use Hidden Power Ghost: Slaking learns Shadow Ball and it does physical damage on Gen 3. As for the 4th slot, Return and Double Edge are solid options. Return's decent base power makes for a decent STAB without any recoil damage. Double Edge is a more powerful nuke. It OHKOs the Lapras sets without defense EVs and it is also strong enough to OHKO Blissey.
lately I've been motivated enough to start working on my own team and after tinkering around and seeing how well this team performed in the Battle Tower, I'll take this opportunity to share it on this forum. So far this team was able to achieve a streak of 105 wins in the Battle Tower (Lvl. 50)
THE BOLTREAVERS
My first plan was to use Aerodactyl as my "flagship" Pokemon and build the team around it. But after putting in more thought, I figured that due to Aerodactyl's frailness and lack of physical prowress, it might leave the other 2 members in a bad spot should it fail to get it's job properly done. Raikou can potentially be a special wall if it is able to use Calm Mind a few times, but should Raikou have to come in and attempt to take down an opponent Aerodactyl was supposed to take out, it can certainly become rather dangerous for it. As for the third member of this squad, at the beginning I wasn't sure wether to add Blissey or Skarmory since both would've brought advantages with them that this team certainly needed, but I thought that Blissey's upsides outweighted Skarmory's in this case, since with Skarmory in Blissey's place, the entire team would easily get overwhelmed by powerful water/ice attackers.
Since Raikou has it's problem with strong physical attackers, especially those that carry an Earthquake, I considered Salamence as a fairly decent partner that is able to step in for Raikou in such situations. Salamence's Intimidate helps Raikou and Blissey to take physical hits a lot easier, it especially pays off should Blissey have to stall a physical opponent out. Salamence's higher physical strength made it a more favourable choice than Aerodactyl, since the higher chances of important OHKO's is something the team certainly appreciates.
It's basically the standard Calm Mind Raikou set with Thunderbolt as the main stab that fries water type pokemon and HP Ice that takes care of Salamence, Altaria and Flygon that would otherwise survive/be immune to a non +6 Thunderbolt and K.O. Raikou with potential Earthquakes. Substitute allows Raikou to ignore status attacks and scout for potential dangerous coverage moves the enemy might carry.
SALAMENCE
Since Salamence carries a Choice Band, it's obvious that it should have as much coverage moves as possible to take care of opponents that Raikou might not be able to handle without sacrificing itself. Earthquake and Aerial Ace/ HP Flying are must have moves for a Salamence to achieve it's main goal, Brick Beak can grant a OHKO on certain normal type pokemon and do substantial damage to Snorlax and Umbreom, which would otherwise most likely tank at least 2 of the other attacks. On the last slot I decided to give Rock Slide a shot which takes care of Moltres and Charizard in one turn (should it hit) and do substantial damage to Gyarados and Zapdos.
BLISSEY
Raikou and Salamence synergize very well in an offensive way, but Blissey's service is certainly needed in order to have a backbone the former two can rely on should it get dangerous. Pretty much your usual Blissey set with your usual strategy, though Kommo-o suggested me to replace Growl with Substitute and try out Brightpowder as the held item, which sounded like a promising concept that eventually turned out to be effective in a lot of situations. Fortunately, Blissey is tanky enough to be able to function without Leftovers, and should Brightpowder trigger in certain situations, Blissey can get a free heal from Soft-Boiled or a free Substitute set up before the enemy is able to inflict damage again.
Regirock is the most dangerous threat this team has to face, since Salamence can't OHKO it with Earthquake and it is immune to Intimidate, which also makes it very difficult for Blissey to handle it in an effective way. Quick Claw Metagross is bad news for this team, since it's also immune to Intimidate and should Salamence not be able to weaken it enough, the other two might have a lot of problems to take it down.
Since none of the team members has Sturdy, QC OHKO move users can pose a huge threat to this team, the only answer I have for them is to hide behind a Substitute and hopefully stall out their PP, but this certainly isn't a safe approach.
Snorlax gets a notable mention since it can hit Salamence and Blissey hard with a normal stab and take care of Raikou with Earthquake, the most dangerous set is of course the QC one, since getting the first hit can destroy the team.
At the end I want to thank Kommo-o and submenceisop for their suggenstions and how to improve this concept both on the forum and on the discord server and for motivating me to give this team a shot. Should anyone have more suggestions on how to improve this team, feel free to share your thoughts.
lately I've been motivated enough to start working on my own team and after tinkering around and seeing how well this team performed in the Battle Tower, I'll take this opportunity to share it on this forum. So far this team was able to achieve a streak of 105 wins in the Battle Tower (Lvl. 50)
My first plan was to use Aerodactyl as my "flagship" Pokemon and build the team around it. But after putting in more thought, I figured that due to Aerodactyl's frailness and lack of physical prowress, it might leave the other 2 members in a bad spot should it fail to get it's job properly done. Raikou can potentially be a special wall if it is able to use Calm Mind a few times, but should Raikou have to come in and attempt to take down an opponent Aerodactyl was supposed to take out, it can certainly become rather dangerous for it. As for the third member of this squad, at the beginning I wasn't sure wether to add Blissey or Skarmory since both would've brought advantages with them that this team certainly needed, but I thought that Blissey's upsides outweighted Skarmory's in this case, since with Skarmory in Blissey's place, the entire team would easily get overwhelmed by powerful water/ice attackers.
Since Raikou has it's problem with strong physical attackers, especially those that carry an Earthquake, I considered Salamence as a fairly decent partner that is able to step in for Raikou in such situations. Salamence's Intimidate helps Raikou and Blissey to take physical hits a lot easier, it especially pays off should Blissey have to stall a physical opponent out. Salamence's higher physical strength made it a more favourable choice than Aerodactyl, since the higher chances of important OHKO's is something the team certainly appreciates.
It's basically the standard Calm Mind Raikou set with Thunderbolt as the main stab that fries water type pokemon and HP Ice that takes care of Salamence, Altaria and Flygon that would otherwise survive/be immune to a non +6 Thunderbolt and K.O. Raikou with potential Earthquakes. Substitute allows Raikou to ignore status attacks and scout for potential dangerous coverage moves the enemy might carry.
SALAMENCE
Since Salamence carries a Choice Band, it's obvious that it should have as much coverage moves as possible to take care of opponents that Raikou might not be able to handle without sacrificing itself. Earthquake and Aerial Ace/ HP Flying are must have moves for a Salamence to achieve it's main goal, Brick Beak can grant a OHKO on certain normal type pokemon and do substantial damage to Snorlax and Umbreom, which would otherwise most likely tank at least 2 of the other attacks. On the last slot I decided to give Rock Slide a shot which takes care of Moltres and Charizard in one turn (should it hit) and do substantial damage to Gyarados and Zapdos.
BLISSEY
Raikou and Salamence synergize very well in an offensive way, but Blissey's service is certainly needed in order to have a backbone the former two can rely on should it get dangerous. Pretty much your usual Blissey set with your usual strategy, though Kommo-o suggested me to replace Growl with Substitute and try out Brightpowder as the held item, which sounded like a promising concept that eventually turned out to be effective in a lot of situations. Fortunately, Blissey is tanky enough to be able to function without Leftovers, and should Brightpowder trigger in certain situations, Blissey can get a free heal from Soft-Boiled or a free Substitute set up before the enemy is able to inflict damage again.
View attachment 352527Regirock is the most dangerous threat this team has to face, since Salamence can't OHKO it with Earthquake and it is immune to Intimidate, which also makes it very difficult for Blissey to handle it in an effective way. View attachment 352528Quick Claw Metagross is bad news for this team, since it's also immune to Intimidate and should Salamence not be able to weaken it enough, the other two might have a lot of problems to take it down.
View attachment 352533View attachment 352532View attachment 352531Since none of the team members has Sturdy, QC OHKO move users can pose a huge threat to this team, the only answer I have for them is to hide behind a Substitute and hopefully stall out their PP, but this certainly isn't a safe approach.
View attachment 352534Snorlax gets a notable mention since it can hit Salamence and Blissey hard with a normal stab and take care of Raikou with Earthquake, the most dangerous set is of course the QC one, since getting the first hit can destroy the team.
At the end I want to thank Kommo-o and submenceisop for their suggenstions and how to improve this concept both on the forum and on the discord server and for motivating me to give this team a shot. Should anyone have more suggestions on how to improve this team, feel free to share your thoughts.
The team was consistently winning even after the 105 streak but it unfortunately came to an end at a streak of 191 wins.
I made some rather dumb decisions against a battle vs Charizard (2) and also got screwed over by it's Brightpowder which enabled it to set up with Dragon Dance and take my entire squad out.
Overall, I didn't even think the team would make it this far, but it has really exceeded my expectations and I'll give it another shot in the following days/weeks and post an update should I break my current record.
Is there a preferred tool or spreadsheet for trying to optimize EV spreads? Or a best strategy to go about doing so? I've played a lot of casual frontier, and gotten all of the gold symbols several times across many save files (though never all on the same one lol) and I would enjoy trying to make some long streaks happen in the Tower and possibly other facilities.
Is there a preferred tool or spreadsheet for trying to optimize EV spreads? Or a best strategy to go about doing so? I've played a lot of casual frontier, and gotten all of the gold symbols several times across many save files (though never all on the same one lol) and I would enjoy trying to make some long streaks happen in the Tower and possibly other facilities.
Optimizing spreadsheets comes from trial and error, looking at the speed tiers and calculating damage on specific opponents. There's a spreadsheet on page 1 with the entire frontier list. For instance, Latios usually runs Timid with 220 speed evs because it allows you to hit the 173 speed tier. Other damage calculations like Salamence have been thoroughly researched.
If you are curious about team building, come to the discord and pop some questions.
As someone who has been playing the battle factory for a few weeks and is yet to get to round 5 once, I'd like to take the time to offer some advice to anyone else who might be considering it:
1) Don't play the factory. Better yet, don't play the frontier at all. Get a girlfriend. Go to the gym. Work on your career. Just don't make the mistake of investing hundreds of hours into this game in the hopes of getting the gold trainer card, only to realize 200 hours in that your chance of ever beating the factory is exactly zero percent.
2) If you absolutely must play the factory, UTILIZE RNG ABUSE. Look up Exarian's speedrun and use the frames he uses. You have to hit the correct frame range all six rounds to have my chance at all of beating the factory. If you miss the range, reset and try later. Don't waste one second in this facility if you don't get a good team. And even if you DO get the team you want, you have a very good chance of losing. Speaking of which...
3) Learn which Pokémon in each round you have no chance against. For instance, if you run into Scyther in round 3, take a deep sigh and reset your game. Try to think back to how you felt when you were playing through the main story and actually enjoying the game.
4) You're going to feel a strong sense of resentment toward people like Werster and Exarion for beating the factory on the first try. Just remind yourself that you live in Clown World and that the universe wants you to suffer, so you are going to suffer. If it's not Pokémon, it will be something else. You will never be happy, accept it now. Try to make a joke out of it if you can.
5) Remember that therapy is an option. They can help you accept your silver trainer card and move on with your life, and they might even be able to write you a prescription for the PTSD symptoms that the factory will inevitably give you.
As someone who has been playing the battle factory for a few weeks and is yet to get to round 5 once, I'd like to take the time to offer some advice to anyone else who might be considering it:
1) Don't play the factory. Better yet, don't play the frontier at all. Get a girlfriend. Go to the gym. Work on your career. Just don't make the mistake of investing hundreds of hours into this game in the hopes of getting the gold trainer card, only to realize 200 hours in that your chance of ever beating the factory is exactly zero percent.
2) If you absolutely must play the factory, UTILIZE RNG ABUSE. Look up Exarian's speedrun and use the frames he uses. You have to hit the correct frame range all six rounds to have my chance at all of beating the factory. If you miss the range, reset and try later. Don't waste one second in this facility if you don't get a good team. And even if you DO get the team you want, you have a very good chance of losing. Speaking of which...
3) Learn which Pokémon in each round you have no chance against. For instance, if you run into Scyther in round 3, take a deep sigh and reset your game. Try to think back to how you felt when you were playing through the main story and actually enjoying the game.
4) You're going to feel a strong sense of resentment toward people like Werster and Exarion for beating the factory on the first try. Just remind yourself that you live in Clown World and that the universe wants you to suffer, so you are going to suffer. If it's not Pokémon, it will be something else. You will never be happy, accept it now. Try to make a joke out of it if you can.
5) Remember that therapy is an option. They can help you accept your silver trainer card and move on with your life, and they might even be able to write you a prescription for the PTSD symptoms that the factory will inevitably give you.
As someone who has been playing the battle factory for a few weeks and is yet to get to round 5 once, I'd like to take the time to offer some advice to anyone else who might be considering it:
1) Don't play the factory. Better yet, don't play the frontier at all. Get a girlfriend. Go to the gym. Work on your career. Just don't make the mistake of investing hundreds of hours into this game in the hopes of getting the gold trainer card, only to realize 200 hours in that your chance of ever beating the factory is exactly zero percent.
2) If you absolutely must play the factory, UTILIZE RNG ABUSE. Look up Exarian's speedrun and use the frames he uses. You have to hit the correct frame range all six rounds to have my chance at all of beating the factory. If you miss the range, reset and try later. Don't waste one second in this facility if you don't get a good team. And even if you DO get the team you want, you have a very good chance of losing. Speaking of which...
3) Learn which Pokémon in each round you have no chance against. For instance, if you run into Scyther in round 3, take a deep sigh and reset your game. Try to think back to how you felt when you were playing through the main story and actually enjoying the game.
4) You're going to feel a strong sense of resentment toward people like Werster and Exarion for beating the factory on the first try. Just remind yourself that you live in Clown World and that the universe wants you to suffer, so you are going to suffer. If it's not Pokémon, it will be something else. You will never be happy, accept it now. Try to make a joke out of it if you can.
5) Remember that therapy is an option. They can help you accept your silver trainer card and move on with your life, and they might even be able to write you a prescription for the PTSD symptoms that the factory will inevitably give you.
Lol this seems personal, as I've poured most of my free time into the Factory exclusively (thank god I'm married and in shape). If you keep getting bodied by Scyther (1 or 2) take one of the plethora of good rock types that are available in the early rounds: Omastar, Lunatone, Relicanth, or even Gligar with Aerial Ace.
You can't even compare normal Pokemon gameplay to that of the Factory. You need to use seemingly bad Pokemon, use PP stalling strategies, and study the hell out of the Pokemon spreadsheet before charging into your next battle. But you are absolutely right that the Factory will eat away countless hours only for hax items to end you. Just try different Pokemon out because the odds are that there are Pokemon that you are avoiding that check threats that you're worried about.
I have written a ~7 chapter essay on how one can play the Factory to the best of their ability, but I don't want to post it unfinished, without having a "Factory Assistant" written in Python or just plain old Microsoft Access. The majority of what the game is asking you to do is database-searching and drawing conclusions midbattle. I'd recommend that you learn as much and you can about the AI so you can play around it.
And I hate when people plug their own stuff, but I've recently started recording myself play on Twitch, if you need to see how to play properly. It's mostly me rambling about every bad situation that might happen and taking 10 minutes to click a move, but I only started recording to document where I go wrong and make better choices.
Just wanted to know, with a Calm Protect + Torment Steelix, how do you play against Walrein 4? Surf does over 70 percent to it and even if you manage to torment it, it will still be able to kill Steelix with one of its coverage moves
My plan with my team (Aerodactyl, Steelix, Milotic) is to switch between Steelix and Milo, baiting out sheer cold until it runs out of pp but i'm not sure if that will work
Just wanted to know, with a Calm Protect + Torment Steelix, how do you play against Walrein 4? Surf does over 70 percent to it and even if you manage to torment it, it will still be able to kill Steelix with one of its coverage moves
My plan with my team (Aerodactyl, Steelix, Milotic) is to switch between Steelix and Milo, baiting out sheer cold until it runs out of pp but i'm not sure if that will work
Steelix is usually paired with a Pressure partner that can actually exploit the free turns that Torment can create. Suicune will usually be able to switch into any of its other moves bar Sheer Cold and when Walrein selects the move, it will usually burn the move quickly out of PP. You don't want to use Steelix as a "true counter" for OHKO abusers like Rhydon, Walrein and Lapras because Steelix can't beat them. Torment's main purpose is to ease set up for another partner by rendering the AI incapable of using the same move repeatedly, which opens up these opportunities to set up
This is a technical post again, for the interested reader. I decided to use my program to make a probability estimation in a more complicated situation than what I already did for n-HKO lead probabilities (factoring in crits and other random effects of moves, such as misses, status inflictions and stat raises/drops, taking into account items such as Sitrus/Lum Berry and Leftovers as well).
Lately I've had many discussions EV-ing the following Pokemon, informally called FatMence:
View attachment 321985
Salamence @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 52 HP / a lot of Atk / a lot of Def / maybe a tiny bit of SpD / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
IVs: either perfect or 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe for HP[Flying]
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute
- Aerial Ace / Hidden Power [Flying]
- Earthquake
It is most commonly seen on cripple + setup teams and sometimes on a Trick team (such as Trick + Grudge Ninetales) because it makes Substitutes that are unbreakable by Struggle after Intimidate, and it sweeps nearly the entire pool of Frontier opponents after setting up to +6/+6.
In fact, the only non-Frontier Brain Pokemon that can survive its HP[Flying] after setup are Skarmory, Lunatone, Solrock, Zapdos, Slaking, Umbreon, Regice, Cloyster, Suicune, Aerodactyl, Lapras, Articuno and maybe Dewgong if you use Aerial Ace and less-than-max Attack. The Pokemon in red can be dangerous if your Substitute got broken before. Or they might break your Substitute and open up Salamence to Quick Claw / Brightpowder / Focus Band hax after that, for example. Or you simply might get two of them in succession during a bad matchup.
The most logical, straightforward thing to do is simply use Hidden Power [Flying] with 252+ Attack, since that indeed maximizes all the rolls and even eliminates Pokemon from the list above:
Skarmory (Skarmory-Boss [Noland Silver†])
HP Flying
52.9 - 62.7%
0.4% chance to 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
Skarmory (Skarmory-Boss [Noland Gold†])
HP Flying
52.9 - 62.7%
0.4% chance to 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
Skarmory (Skarmory-3 [579])
HP Flying
58.7 - 69.1%
guaranteed 2HKO
Skarmory (Skarmory-4 [675])
HP Flying
58.7 - 69.1%
guaranteed 2HKO
Skarmory (Skarmory-1 [387])
HP Flying
62.7 - 73.9%
guaranteed 2HKO
Skarmory (Skarmory-2 [483])
HP Flying
62.7 - 73.9%
guaranteed 2HKO
Lunatone (Lunatone-1 [223])
HP Flying
77.4 - 91.5%
guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
Lunatone (Lunatone-2 [328])
HP Flying
77.4 - 91.5%
guaranteed 2HKO
Solrock (Solrock-1 [224])
HP Flying
86.4 - 102.2%
18.8% chance to OHKO
Solrock (Solrock-2 [329])
HP Flying
86.4 - 102.2%
18.8% chance to OHKO
Zapdos (Zapdos-1 [758])
HP Flying
92.7 - 109.6%
56.3% chance to OHKO
Zapdos (Zapdos-2 [769])
HP Flying
92.7 - 109.6%
56.3% chance to OHKO
Zapdos (Zapdos-3 [780])
HP Flying
92.7 - 109.6%
56.3% chance to OHKO
Zapdos (Zapdos-4 [791])
HP Flying
92.7 - 109.6%
56.3% chance to OHKO
Zapdos (Zapdos-5 [873])
HP Flying
92.7 - 109.6%
56.3% chance to OHKO
Zapdos (Zapdos-6 [874])
HP Flying
92.7 - 109.6%
56.3% chance to OHKO
Shuckle (Shuckle-Boss [Lucy Silver])
HP Flying
92.9 - 109.4%
56.3% chance to OHKO
Slaking (Slaking-1 [468])
HP Flying
93.4 - 110.1%
62.5% chance to OHKO
Slaking (Slaking-2 [564])
HP Flying
95.1 - 112%
68.8% chance to OHKO
Slaking (Slaking-3 [660])
HP Flying
95.1 - 112%
68.8% chance to OHKO
But of course, some extra EVs in Defense are very welcome while setting up, and you might want to try Aerial Ace to prevent Brightpowder hax against many opponents in general. When using HP[Flying], general good marks are 202 Attack for the 50% against Zapdos, or even as low as 199 with 43.8% to OHKO Zapdos and still OHKO Aerodactyl, bulky Regice and Suicune.
But in this post I would like to give Skarmory-3 [579], the one with Curse, Fly, Toxic and Rest, some attention. If you played this kind of Salamence (or Gyarados for that matter) before, you're probably familiar with the risk of not 2HKOing (because it uses Curse after the first hit) and letting it setup because of Chesto Rest. If this Skarmory pulls through, it will counter you with +6 Fly eventually, as you won't be able to outstall all of its 15 PP by using Substitute usually.
Of course, if you critically hit somewhere, you win automatically, but in general it can be a very lengthy process, and there's always a chance you won't get it before Skarmory starts using attacks of its own. All-in-all, I kept wondering what the eventual winning probability is for Salamence, so I used my program to simulate this situation 10.000 times for different Attack stats and both for Aerial Ace and Hidden Power [Flying]. I didn't want to simulate a million battles, because I this PC can only do around 60~70 battles per second as some of them take long. With these settings I needed around 3 minutes per case. How little Attack can you afford to still have really good chance of beating it?
In these simulations, I assumed the following, which I hope reflect the actual game's strategy but to my feeling it does:
Skarmory uses Curse if its HP is greater than or equal to half its HP (86) and Rest otherwise (first time it consumes Chesto Berry ofc);
Salamence is at +6 Attack and only spams its Flying-type STAB;
If Skarmory faints, Salamence wins (duh);
If Skarmory gets to +6/+6/-6, is not sleeping, and has more than 65% HP left, Skarmory 'wins'.
The last assumption is to prevent having to think about Fly mechanics, but reflects the situation where Skarmory will start using Fly, so Salamence won't be able to use many Hidden Powers anymore in fear of Toxic. While not a losing scenario per se, it sure looks bad for Salamence. This should be taken into account when looking at the final results. Note that the 2HKO from the start is present with decent Attack stat, but the probability of not critting diminishes as well.
The results
In the following table, I rounded the four-decimal ratio estimators to two places a bit arbitrarily, but since it's still a Monte Carlo simulation I decided to go for a lazy cutoff to reduce "arbitrary garbage info" as much as possible. Since it's a "Bernoulli trial" estimator of sorts, it's hard to build a good confidence interval, and even rounding to full percentages leaves room for small error, although not too likely.
Attack stat
EVs required
AA win probability
HP[Flying] win probability
205
252
0.74
1.00 (not guaranteed)
204
244
0.74
1.00 (not guaranteed)
203
236
0.72
0.99
202
228
0.72
0.98
201
220
0.71
0.98
200
212
0.71
0.98
199
204
0.70
0.96
194 (Gyarados)
252
-
0.87
Note that some Atk stats are redundant, such as 201 Attack, since it doesn't change the range against Skarmory and only changes the range of Aerial Ace against Zapdos, which is a 2HKO anyway.
Conclusion
Use Sharp Beak if you want the guaranteed win, haha. On a more serious note, use this for your own team!
Of course, I could have made these calculations exact simply by analysing the damage range and crits after. But I wanted to illustrate the power of simulations and use the scenario as a practice case.
If you want to see more of these kind of calculations, please let me know.
People on discord know how I've been disappointed with Salamence. It's incredibly hard to set up... with a million haxy water types in this generation, but it's nearly un wallable when fully set up. I practically gave up on it completely... but Actaeon got me to use baton pass Zapdos with it and it's how well it works. Baton passing evasion to sweepers haven't really been explored and it's certainly the best niche Zapdos has.
The team structure is basically thief crippler lead, zapdos and (insert sweeper here). The thief user must have: reliable speed control, thief/trick and a decent speed tier. At the very least, the thief use has to be naturally faster than Haxrein and friends (base 65). Thief leads are essential to ensure that Zapdos can properly do it's job.
Thief leads I've tried include Stantler, Politoed, Grumpig and Hypno. Each one has it's own distinct niche. Stantler has intimidate, Politoed has perish song and damp to prevent explosion leads, Grumpig has torment, reflect and a solid base 80 speed tier. Hypno has thunder wave, no special weaknesses and good overall bulk.
I actually prefer Hypno here as my last losses have been to special threats like Raikou, Starmie and Latios. This Hypno is ev'ed to live a non crit Rhydon's Megahorn, with the rest in special defence. T-wave for speed control, Flash as a filler (unfortunately the accuracy is a let down). Reflect is also something that's possible here as well... but Grumpig is more viable with it's higher speed.
Damage Calculations.
252+ Atk Rhydon Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 180 Def Hypno: 161-190 (83.8 - 98.9%)
252+ SpA Starmie Surf vs. 252 HP / 76+ SpD Hypno: 56-67 (29.1 - 34.8%)
252+ SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 76+ SpD Hypno: 63-75 (32.8 - 39%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Absol Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 180 Def Hypno: 161-190 (83.8 - 98.9%)
This Zapdos set is pretty straightforward. Leftovers number in HP, enough speed to out speed Espeon and the rest in physical defence. The bulk can be played around with for Zapdos IF there are relevant damage calculations. From my experience though, I think it's safer to have the speed just in case Hypno can't t-wave.
Zapdos stalls most things really comfortably with thunder-wave and flash support. Although the flash support is inaccurate, it is usually able to stall out PP safely eventually. Pokemon with lots of PP like Starmie, Latios, Gengar remain threats... but hypno basically guarantees that they will be thunder-waved at the very least.
Salamence is my sweeper. I chose the 201 attack stat here, as I found this sufficient. Curse Skarm is still annoying, but you should still have Zapdos to outstall the fly.
I actually had a lot of fun with SHARP Beak Mence... as this even guarantees the 1ko on AI Zapdos and ensures you never lose to Curse Skarmory. Unfortunately, you can get haxxed with status in situations where sh*t goes wrong. In one variation... Raikou managed to get through Zapdos and thunder waved Salamence = GG.
The cool thing about the evasion is that it gives Salamence multiple chances to win. The evasion helps you safely set up and even get another chance to ko things like focus band Blastoise and bright powder Walrein. This salamence also sets up on struggles instead of most moves.
*Edit: Lost @ 197 wins to Lum Medicham, Mr Mime and QC Skarmory. Lum Medicham always breaks Zapdos's sub. Couldn't pressure stall.
Team: Incredibly OP in most situations. Struggles a bit against explosion leads like regirock, metagross, QC turn 1 ohko users. Strong physical attackers critting hypno. Curse skarmory is annoying to deal with.
Time to live up to my username and prove Salamence is truly OP.
Steelix is usually paired with a Pressure partner that can actually exploit the free turns that Torment can create. Suicune will usually be able to switch into any of its other moves bar Sheer Cold and when Walrein selects the move, it will usually burn the move quickly out of PP. You don't want to use Steelix as a "true counter" for OHKO abusers like Rhydon, Walrein and Lapras because Steelix can't beat them. Torment's main purpose is to ease set up for another partner by rendering the AI incapable of using the same move repeatedly, which opens up these opportunities to set up
I see.... how viable would switching between steelix and a bulky water to deplete sheer cold's pp would be? I assume it wouldn't be b/c OHKO users aren't guaranteed to pick their OHKO moves on a poke that can die to it but idk
edit: I meant to say that the aren't guaranteed to use OHKO moves on a poke that can die to it
I see.... how viable would switching between steelix and a bulky water to deplete sheer cold's pp would be? I assume it wouldn't be b/c OHKO users aren't guaranteed to pick their OHKO moves on a poke that can die to it but idk
edit: I meant to say that the aren't guaranteed to use OHKO moves on a poke that can die to it
Milotic is not really a good partner for this specific Steelix set. Torment Lix was designed to exploit Suicune's ability to burn PP with Pressure in combination with their complementary typing. If you're looking for a Sturdy Pokemon, I think you'll be more at home with Skarmory who can definitely act as a more stand-alone Pokemon than Steelix. Skarmory has great synergy with Pokemon such as Flygon or Swampert.
Milotic is not really a good partner for this specific Steelix set. Torment Lix was designed to exploit Suicune's ability to burn PP with Pressure in combination with their complementary typing. If you're looking for a Sturdy Pokemon, I think you'll be more at home with Skarmory who can definitely act as a more stand-alone Pokemon than Steelix. Skarmory has great synergy with Pokemon such as Flygon or Swampert.
I see... without Torment Steelix + pressure or without Skarmory, there doesn't seem to be much of a way to near-guarantee a win vs OHKO users. I'll prolly just use a bulky attacker-like Steelix with Explosion. Thanks for the help!
Zapdos stalls most things really comfortably with thunder-wave and flash support. Although the flash support is inaccurate, it is usually able to stall out PP safely eventually. Pokemon with lots of PP like Starmie, Latios, Gengar remain threats... but hypno basically guarantees that they will be thunder-waved at the very least.
But this is the DT + BP set, not the crippler Twave + Flash set ;)
Nice post, nice team; this is a great example of how Evasion Zapdos should be used, and Hypno lead is fascinating! We already had lots of discussion about the possible leads, so I'll leave it at this :)
EDIT: just realized you were talking about TWave + Flash support from Hypno obviously. It was slightly confusing reading your post, haha.
![IMG_20210625_194223[1].jpg](/forums/media/data/attachments/352/352405-2c0f6b40dbed5a7f0c13804e223a1d8f.jpg "IMG_20210625_194223[1].jpg")
![IMG_20210627_215100[1].jpg](/forums/media/data/attachments/352/352847-c704e9170ad6f56d028b2dda5619d891.jpg "IMG_20210627_215100[1].jpg")
how well it works. Baton passing evasion to sweepers haven't really been explored and it's certainly the best niche Zapdos has.
