Pokémon Genesect (Read the OP pls)

[TheTraininator]

I know we're not supposed to discuss if it should be banned or not, but I was just wondering: why was it decided to not quickban Genesect in the first place? He hasn't received any nerfs in the change between generations, and the metagame still welcomes him with open arms - hell, it was even decided that he is still an S-ranked threat on the OU viability page with little to no argument. Not saying he should or shouldn't be banned, just curious if I'm missing something.

 

[JustLetMePlay]

I know we're not supposed to discuss if it should be banned or not, but I was just wondering: why was it decided to not quickban Genesect in the first place? He hasn't received any nerfs in the change between generations, and the metagame still welcomes him with open arms - hell, it was even decided that he is still an S-ranked threat on the OU viability page with little to no argument. Not saying he should or shouldn't be banned, just curious if I'm missing something.

Its defensive typing is no longer as good as it was in previous gens which is actually pretty significant now that Ghost is so prominent as it places limits on what it can switch into safely. The metagame has also shifted to be bulkier and the special scarf set recieved a small power nerf, not to mention powerful priority is rampant so I think it's definitely fair that it gets a go in OU. If it gets suspected and voted out of OU, well that's the way the insect crumbles, but personally, I think it fits rather well into the metagame at the moment. It's S rank for sure, but I don't think it's clear cut Ubers at all.

 

[JSND]

It get some nerf, but Genesect is still a 665 - 685 BST pokemon with not shitty typing
That beside the point, this thread is supposed to discuss about Geno and not about should it be banned or not, is it not?



Anyway, what do you guys think on using Physical Defensive Volcarona against Sect? Sounds retarded, because it is but i'm interested in the prospect

 

[Lee]

CB Tyranitar does up to 90% on a switching Genesect with Pursuit; this reduces the allure of the flagship Choice Scarf set considerably for me. Lock yourself in to the wrong move and you're toast. Sure, you have U-turn but Genesect can be pressured into using a different attack at which point he's Tar-bait and you lose your Lucario check. His Pursuit resistance last gen is part of what made him such an optimal Scarfer.

 

[Spiegelmann]

I feel that if genesect is banned this gen it will be because of its versatility. If there's been no clear-cut indication of what set its running until mid-game you could lose by simply assuming it was choiced. Now that I typed it out it sounds a bit silly since it'd be pretty easy to find out early-game, but meh. I figure there's still some merit in it so I might as well still post it.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

It get some nerf, but Genesect is still a 665 - 685 BST pokemon with not shitty typing
That beside the point, this thread is supposed to discuss about Geno and not about should it be banned or not, is it not?



Anyway, what do you guys think on using Physical Defensive Volcarona against Sect? Sounds retarded, because it is but i'm interested in the prospect

Its not ''retarded''. Bulky volcarona is the best set for the moth in the current meta as it fits perfectly on the bulky offensive tendencies and its ability to check scizor, genesect, venusuar, lucario, aegislash and burn physical attackers with flame body makes it anti-meta as hell. The only real issue is the sr weakness but that has never stopped anything good from being used. The only thing genesect can do to it is use explosion, but fortunately very few of them have the move.

 

[Alejandro36]

Its not ''retarded''. Bulky volcarona is the best set for the moth in the current meta as it fits perfectly on the bulky offensive tendencies and its ability to check scizor, genesect, venusuar, lucario, aegislash and burn physical attackers with flame body makes it anti-meta as hell. The only real issue is the sr weakness but that has never stopped anything good from being used. The only thing genesect can do to it is use explosion, but fortunately very few of them have the move.

A counter needs to be able to switch on things, and thats difficult when you are 4x weak to SR. On Genesect's case it needs to be able to switch in more than one time since Genesect can simply U turn on the switch, and good players usually spam U turn more often than not.

More often than not it will go like this:

-Opponent sent Genesect
-Go Volcarona! Volcarona lost 50% due to SR
-Genesect used U turn.
-Opponent sent Talonflame/azumarill/Garchomp or any of the faster pokemon that can kill Volcarona

Now you have to let you volcarona die or switch out, which means either you genesect counter is dead or you can't switch in again without spinning/defogging. And what do you use once the oponnent sends genesect again? It basically puts a tremendous pressure on you to keep rocks away, which is not alway easy to do against an offensive team.

 

[Helix]

How would a mixed set on this guy work out? I imagine you build it just like a greninja mixed set.
Genesect @ Choice Scarf/Expert belt
Ability: Download
EV: 88 Atk / 168 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive / Hasty Nature
- U-turn
- Flamethrower
- Ice Beam
- Flash Cannon / Extreme Speed / Thunderbolt


Applying the same logic from Greninja this build should be pretty good.

 

[preserve]

Genesect got extreme speed which is pretty cool because it can out speed other priority users. But pokes like talonflame, aegislash, mega venusaur, and assault vest conkeldurr makes genesect a bit less scary than last gen.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

A counter needs to be able to switch on things, and thats difficult when you are 4x weak to SR. On Genesect's case it needs to be able to switch in more than one time since Genesect can simply U turn on the switch, and good players usually spam U turn more often than not.

More often than not it will go like this:

-Opponent sent Genesect
-Go Volcarona! Volcarona lost 50% due to SR
-Genesect used U turn.
-Opponent sent Talonflame/azumarill/Garchomp or any of the faster pokemon that can kill Volcarona

Now you have to let you volcarona die or switch out, which means either you genesect counter is dead or you can't switch in again without spinning/defogging. And what do you use once the oponnent sends genesect again? It basically puts a tremendous pressure on you to keep rocks away, which is not alway easy to do against an offensive team.

Who is talking about stealth rock and how is that even remotely relevant to this. Sr are not standard battle conditions, they can be setuped easily, yes, but can be removed just as easily. Anyone using volcarona is going to have some reliable anti hazard support specially when things like defog and prankster taunt users are available. Volcarona is a counter to genesect because it can always switch into it in standard battle conditions (that is a clean field). Lets not forget that everytime genesect u-turns out of volcarona its taking a 30% gamble with flame body which just outright makes it the perfect switch in.

 

[rachet67]

Any team that uses Volcorona will have something like defog skarmory, mandibuzz, or Zapdos which can all do their job fairly easily. Zapdos in addition, isn't weak to volt-turn.
Volcorona can also double as a lucario check.

 

[Star]

Yeah Bulky Volcarona is a great Genesect counter but I find that Heatran just fills the role better. The lack of an SR weakness is obviously helpful.

Also I'm finding the shift gear set with the right download boost to be one of the best win conditions in the meta as of now. Espeed Blaze kick and Iron Head can beat just about anything at +2. Even bulky waters have a tough time taking espeed if they have prior damage (which they should because this set is meant to clean more than sweep).

 

[Ryolain]

CB Genesect is amazing. It can often clean out half the opponent's team - slower bulky Pokes get 2HKO'd by Iron Head and faster ones get 2HKO'd by Espeed. +1 CB U-turn is obviously a monster, and then I run Ice Beam in the last slot to check stuff like Gliscor, Mandibuzz and Dragons.

 

[Merritt]

I would think that water techno boost would be more useful than HP Ground, since it lets Genesect hit Rock types along with fire types (and it does a lot to Talonflame on the switch).

I think that Genesect is extremely useful, especially on sand teams, but absolutely less useful than last gen due to the ubiquity of fire types and defensive nerf.

 

[Alejandro36]

Who is talking about stealth rock and how is that even remotely relevant to this. Sr are not standard battle conditions, they can be setuped easily, yes, but can be removed just as easily. Anyone using volcarona is going to have some reliable anti hazard support specially when things like defog and prankster taunt users are available. Volcarona is a counter to genesect because it can always switch into it in standard battle conditions (that is a clean field). Lets not forget that everytime genesect u-turns out of volcarona its taking a 30% gamble with flame body which just outright makes it the perfect switch in.

Is just like those people saying moltres is a counter to lucario. it works in theory but just doesn't work in practice. Like I said, relying on pokemon 4x weak as counter to something is just very bad when SR are so easy to lay and pretty much 99% of the teams use it. Defog + pokemon that are 4x weak to SR is also something that works better in paper than in practice. Remember that your defog user needs to be able to switch into something AND take a hit because of the turn it takes to defog. Most hyper offensive teams will have a way to put pressure on you by simply having moves than 2HKO common defog users or pokemon that are able to set up on them.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Is just like those people saying moltres is a counter to lucario. it works in theory but just doesn't work in practice. Like I said, relying on pokemon 4x weak as counter to something is just very bad when SR are so easy to lay and pretty much 99% of the teams use it. Defog + pokemon that are 4x weak to SR is also something that works better in paper than in practice. Remember that your defog user needs to be able to switch into something AND take a hit because of the turn it takes to defog. Most hyper offensive teams will have a way to put pressure on you by simply having moves than 2HKO common defog users or pokemon that are able to set up on them.

I am not talking about making a team with 5 genesect weak mons+volcarona. Bulky volcarona is not a glue that will hold your team together, its a great bulky setup sweeper that just happens to counter the best pokemons in the game and has literally one flaw that is supposed to be covered by its teammates. Yes if stealth rocks are on the field it cant work properly and if they arent it will work. The fact is, volcarona is a counter to genesect, it needs support but so does everything else.

 

[Alejandro36]

Fair enough. If you happen to have volcarona on your team you can use it to counter genesect. But if your team is a bit weak to genesect and looking for a counter then I would look somewhere else first. Volcaron just needs lots of support to work.

I have been using deoxys s as a lead and decided to slap fire punch on it because of how often Genesect leads. It actually kills it a lot of the time since most people expect deoxys lead to start with hazards and try to u turn on it. Don't need a counter to it when over 80% of the time is dying on the first turn lol.

 

[Pokemultiverse]

I would think that water techno boost would be more useful than HP Ground, since it lets Genesect hit Rock types along with fire types (and it does a lot to Talonflame on the switch).

I think that Genesect is extremely useful, especially on sand teams, but absolutely less useful than last gen due to the ubiquity of fire types and defensive nerf.

Just a reminder that HP ground hits rock types super-effective as well. However, other fire/flying or levitating pokemon will like that more than techno-surf as they are immune but is that move used instead of tbolt? if not then tbolt will cover most flyers.

 

[Star]

Techno Surf seems like a waste of an item in my opinion. You can just u-turn out to a check/counter.

 

[Merritt]

Techno Surf seems like a waste of an item in my opinion. You can just u-turn out to a check/counter.

But it's a useful move if you predict a switch to something weak to it. In addition, neutral Techno-surf is as powerful as a SE HP Ground and hits Volcarona (who Genesect is otherwise complete set-up bait for) hard enough to make the almost certain quiver dance all but neutralized. At +1, even against 252/252+ Volcarona (which is run since when again?) it's a guaranteed 2HKO. With rocks up, or if you hit on the switch, then Volcarona's dead.

 

[doughboy]

Choice Band Genesect is just dirty right now. Most often CB U-turn is a lose-lose situation for the opponent. If the opponent stays in, you will hit them for a huge chunk of damage. If they switch, you get a good amount of chip damage in and get a free switch to whatever you want. The switches it forces are more compelling for bulkier teams than the scarf set. You don't lose the ability to force a switch against offensive teams though to pull off a U-turn because of that sexy boosted Extreme Speed. That boosted Extremespeed is a good option for offensive teams to bypass Talonflame. Rotom-W is a great choice in this meta right now since it can check so many top threats and makes a great partner with Genesect to do VoltTurn. The pairing is obvious, but I really cannot express how much work they put in together to generate chip damage and free switchins for your team.

He makes one of the best partners for Dragon-types since he can switch into revenge killing ice moves and he can remove the checks for Dragons, Blaze Kick roasts Steel-types and Iron Head destroys Faries / Ttar / Blissey. His moveset doesn't look it receives anyway to hit the metagame hard, but it just hits the targets it needs well enough.

 

[Ryuuki]

Choice Band Genesect is just dirty right now. Most often CB U-turn is a lose-lose situation for the opponent. If the opponent stays in, you will hit them for a huge chunk of damage. If they switch, you get a good amount of chip damage in and get a free switch to whatever you want. The switches it forces are more compelling for bulkier teams than the scarf set. You don't lose the ability to force a switch against offensive teams though to pull off a U-turn because of that sexy boosted Extreme Speed. That boosted Extremespeed is a good option for offensive teams to bypass Talonflame. Rotom-W is a great choice in this meta right now since it can check so many top threats and makes a great partner with Genesect to do VoltTurn. The pairing is obvious, but I really cannot express how much work they put in together to generate chip damage and free switchins for your team.

He makes one of the best partners for Dragon-types since he can switch into revenge killing ice moves and he can remove the checks for Dragons, Blaze Kick roasts Steel-types and Iron Head destroys Faries / Ttar / Blissey. His moveset doesn't look it receives anyway to hit the metagame hard, but it just hits the targets it needs well enough.

Well I couldn't have said it better myself ^^ People just switch in the x4 Bug resistant stuff like Ferrothorn just to be nailed by that +2 Blaze Kick / Iron Head. Oh what I love when that happens. The other really scary set is the Shift Gear, damn it's so easy to just wreak havoc after just one Shift Gear and it's so easy to set up with him. That have to be my favorite Genesect set.

 

[TheTraininator]

Well I couldn't have said it better myself ^^ People just switch in the x4 Bug resistant stuff like Ferrothorn just to be nailed by that +2 Blaze Kick / Iron Head. Oh what I love when that happens. The other really scary set is the Shift Gear, damn it's so easy to just wreak havoc after just one Shift Gear and it's so easy to set up with him. That have to be my favorite Genesect set.

Though I agree with everything you are saying, I'd just like to point out that Ferro is neutral to U-Turn because Grass is weak to bug, not strong against it. Sorry to be a nitpicky Nelson. :P

 

[Star]

Choice Band Genesect is just dirty right now. Most often CB U-turn is a lose-lose situation for the opponent. If the opponent stays in, you will hit them for a huge chunk of damage. If they switch, you get a good amount of chip damage in and get a free switch to whatever you want. The switches it forces are more compelling for bulkier teams than the scarf set. You don't lose the ability to force a switch against offensive teams though to pull off a U-turn because of that sexy boosted Extreme Speed. That boosted Extremespeed is a good option for offensive teams to bypass Talonflame. Rotom-W is a great choice in this meta right now since it can check so many top threats and makes a great partner with Genesect to do VoltTurn. The pairing is obvious, but I really cannot express how much work they put in together to generate chip damage and free switchins for your team.

He makes one of the best partners for Dragon-types since he can switch into revenge killing ice moves and he can remove the checks for Dragons, Blaze Kick roasts Steel-types and Iron Head destroys Faries / Ttar / Blissey. His moveset doesn't look it receives anyway to hit the metagame hard, but it just hits the targets it needs well enough.

Completely agree with this but the physical coverage kinda sucks but it's workable. I run ice beam on it for pesky Gliscor.

 

[Ryuuki]

Though I agree with everything you are saying, I'd just like to point out that Ferro is neutral to U-Turn because Grass is weak to bug, not strong against it. Sorry to be a nitpicky Nelson. :P

Damn you for correcting my stupid misstakes =P Well Ferro is still a common switchin if it carries Rocky Helmet. I'll change that sentence then.

Completely agree with this but the physical coverage kinda sucks but it's workable. I run ice beam on it for pesky Gliscor.

Yea Gliscor can be really annoying for physical Genesect as +2 Iron Head deals 50-60% damage, but Gliscor might not be able to switchin on Gensect with SR on the field as it might get 2HKOed even with pro but apart from that it can switch in on any other move it carries.