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League of Legends: Let's Talk About uhhh??

heyhey i'm a moderator on mobafire
don't talk shit about it

basically the thing is this:

mobafire is meant to get newer players off the ground. guides will teach you the basics of a champion, its nuances, and how to use it. jungle guides will generally have detailed jungle paths. lane guides will go over harassing, last hitting, etc. in general most mobafire guides are meant to be a step-by-step intro to a champion, which is about as far as an item build along with words can go.

the mobafire voting system is public and the site cannot censor votes, so you have the general consensus of the voters voting on guides, hence the reason why some guides may be highly rated even though they aren't that amazing - because they helped the newer players learn. high ELO players aren't going to go onto a guide site and look up how to play a champion, so they don't have as many votes.

on the other hand, solomid's guide panel selects the builds that work at top ELO levels - however, they are NEVER as in-depth as some of the ones on mobafire/leaguecraft.

really if you want to learn to play a champion, a guide can't teach you everything. guides do basics. you learn more from watching videos, livestreams, tournament games, tutoring, and above all, just practicing.
 
@Moba Vs SoloMid

As a scrub I used both but preferred Moba because of the layout and what not. Both are good for what they are, meaning if a newer player uses either of the sites they would get an idea of what a champ would play like. You guys are essentially arguing about each others opinions and I doubt they will change.


@2 Post ago...

You know you can move your items right?
 
vonFiedler said:
The difference between Tear and Catalyst is that the later helps you in lane, and Catalyst builds into two of the best items in the game, while Tear builds into two of the worst (and it can be decent AD or AP at full mana, but you rarely build it to the full thousand). The Archangel example is especially poignant, as it does nothing but provide too much mana until you run out of item slots. The comparison to Doran's items is also invalid, as you at least sell those back. Tear is a dead item slot, only 2 champs need it, and only 2 champs want it. Everyone else can conserve their mana. You'll also sell a Philo back, and that item is doubly valuable to a support who doesn't get CS.
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Tear helps you in lane too! Health isn't the only resource that needs to be sustained, you know. Anybody that can't sufficiently build up a Tear shouldn't be buying one but any champion that would consider it will build up a Tear in ~15 minutes. (It takes 12.5 minutes to max if you use skills on timer. Manamune alters the timing slightly since it allows auto-attacks to slowly build mana too.) That's pretty similar to aging a Rod of Ages, which is ten minutes but takes longer to acquire because it's thrice the cost. Back for your Tear ASAP and it should be 700+ bonus mana by the 20-minute mark.
 
Mr.E said:
Tear helps you in lane too! Health isn't the only resource that needs to be sustained, you know. Anybody that can't sufficiently build up a Tear shouldn't be buying one but any champion that would consider it will build up a Tear in ~15 minutes. (It takes 12.5 minutes to max if you use skills on timer. Manamune alters the timing slightly since it allows auto-attacks to slowly build mana too.) That's pretty similar to aging a Rod of Ages, which is ten minutes but takes longer to acquire because it's thrice the cost. Back for your Tear ASAP and it should be 700+ bonus mana by the 20-minute mark.
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Of course mana sometimes needs sustain as much as health. Good thing Philo also gives you more mana regen than Tear.

What you are proposing in general is a catch-22. Spam abilities every time they get off of cooldown? Assuming we get Tear at level 3, Urgot can spam Acid Hunter 18 times in a row. Congrats, you now have 74 more mana (actually, not even quite true as Tear only procs twice per 6 seconds) and you have to blue pill. If you have to Blue Pill, you don't have sustain. Tear does not immediately turn you into Garen, you still need to use mana responsibly or you will lose your lane.
 
Tears really doesn't help you stay in lane It just allows you to become a little more volatile in lnae as your trying to build it up (manamune isnt usless Ezreal,Urgot,Kog maw,Blitzcrank) all benefit from it.
 
It does not allow you to be more volatile in lane, the only thing that gives you more casts in lane is the sapphire crystal part. Running out of mana by spamming then blue pilling builds up Tear very slowly while also forcing you out of lane.

Ezreal does not need Manamune, Ezreal players who buy it also usually put a point into W but when you are just managing his Q and using E when necessary, he doesn't have mana problems. Kog players only get Tear to spam R but even Tear only kinda allows that, when a good Kog player knows how to wait between casts to conserve mana.
 
The problem with Tear is that you're sacrificing a lot of early game power for what can essentially be remedied just as well with smart play. Manamune and Archangel's are both obsolete, sub-par, situational items that shine only on certain champions - Archangel's especially with Deathcap now being the prime item to rush for powerful early AP instead of the AA rush that you may have seen many months ago.

Buying Tear on Ezreal, for example, loses your lane to another Ezreal who has boots and a Doran's Blade, along with 2 pots and a ward for less total gold than your Tear cost. Tear on Corki used to be standard before Dreamhack so you could rush Manamune and farm to be a late game monster - then, people realized that with mana regen seals, a good support bottom, and SMART PLAY, you could be an early, mid, and late game monster by just rushing straight damage items like Triforce.

Urgot is an exception. His primary harass combo (E into W into QQQQQQQQ) is very mana-heavy and you need Tear to sustain yourself early on, while Catalyst isn't as suitable because he doesn't benefit from Rod at all while Banshee's obviously leaves him lacking in power. Blitzcrank can get Tear to have a much stronger passive than a non-Tear Blitzcrank would, and it does let him spam Q late-game without worrying about mana troubles: Do note, however, that Doublelift does NOT use Tear on Blitzcrank, at least not frequently. Kog'Maw does not need a Tear unless you're specifically going for an artillery R-spam build, which is a niche role for a niche item.

Catalyst is all-around better for the sustain because Rod of Ages is one of the best, most cost-efficient items in the game and Banshee's Veil is one of the best defensive items in the game. The lane sustain is universally helpful as all champions in the game who are considering either Tear or Catalyst benefit from both health and mana.

Overall on most champions in the game I'd take a Catalyst over a Tear and on the champions where I wouldn't take a Catalyst (Cassiopeia, Blitzcrank, Corki) I'd rather rush another core item or stack Doran's. Cass/Karthus frequently go double or triple Ring into a Deathcap, while Blitz and Corki can both rush Phage (Corki can stack Doran's as well).




Oy, that was a little verbose, wasn't it? Sorry! ~.~
 
masterful said:
There's no rule saying that you can't get both cata and tear in the same game on champs that neeeeeeed tear, like Ryze
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that's because ryze feeds on mana and gets much stronger with mana than he does with AP

by building mana you're effectively increasing your damage in the most efficient way

on the other hand tear into archangel's works on karthus but doran's stacking into deathcap or just going RoA is better overall, and blue buff makes tear redundant anyway

and if you're in a position where you can't secure blue buff for your AP carry every time then tear probably won't help you much :/
 
Just played my first game as Janna. It's hard being a support/babysitter because every time you save somebody's ass with a knockup or a shield, they they dive right back in. I get blamed for everything (didn't CV for Lux's ult, had to choose between shielding Anivia and Corki, didn't ward Dragon even though I was at top etc). *sigh*

I'm having trouble with mana. Should I be getting more mana regen items, or should I be conserving my spells more wisely?
 
Manamune is the most cost efficient source of AD that you can get so for champions that have a lot of skills that scale well off raw AD (like Yorick) it is one of the better items in the game.
 
Banshee's is overrated as fuck. QSS is arguably better against hard CC for a fraction of the cost, because you can actually choose what to "bubble" out from, and I rather consider FoN the generalist MR item because movespeed RULZ. Banshee's is just a good "token defense item" on carries and a specialized counter-item against some champions (like Blitz or Singed).

vonFiedler said:
It does not allow you to be more volatile in lane, the only thing that gives you more casts in lane is the sapphire crystal part. Running out of mana by spamming then blue pilling builds up Tear very slowly while also forcing you out of lane.

Ezreal does not need Manamune, Ezreal players who buy it also usually put a point into W but when you are just managing his Q and using E when necessary, he doesn't have mana problems. Kog players only get Tear to spam R but even Tear only kinda allows that, when a good Kog player knows how to wait between casts to conserve mana.
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Philo Stone is one of my favorite items period but a raw 350 Mana is obviously going to do more for your blue bar than +1 regen per five seconds. Philo is probably one of the best items in the game in general though. DAT health regen, yo... and paying itself off by the 30:00 mark or so.

At any rate, Ezreal doesn't need Manamune much more than other ranged AD carries but it sure does help. AD carries in general yeah, you want to conserve your mana but one extended bout of harass and counter-harass and oh, you're already out of mana... then you don't regen it for shit either so it's like oh my Ashe ult is "cooling down" for the next two minutes while I wait to regen the 150 mana it costs to cast. -_- If I don't just recall before then.

So you get an early Tear. It takes 12.5 minutes to max at quickest but you probably won't be spamming abilities on cooldown, maybe it takes you 15-16 minutes to max. By the 15:00 mark you should have 600ish bonus mana built up, 1600-1800 or so total mana factoring in the raw 350 mana bonus and your champion's base mana. Congratulations! Building your Manamune now will give you AD roughly as efficient as a BF Sword (and more actual AD) while, if not immediately then after the first recall, you can spam all your skills with complete impunity. Rushing Manamune, which costs less than 500 more than the typical B.F. Sword (or 510 more than Wriggle's), you'll build up the mana even more quickly (adding +1 mana per auto-attack in addition to the spellcast proc) and basically have purchased yourself a super-B.F. Sword that also gives you "infinite" mana.

Or maybe you'd prefer a comparison to something like Wit's End, a true mid-game item more comparable in cost (2000g to 2110g). Wit's End gives 42 magic damage per hit and a bunch of AS and MR. Manamune is liable to add more raw damage, coming in at 52 AD at 1600 mana (now affected by your Armor Pen) and growing up to a potential max of 70-80 as you reach Level 18, cap your bonus mana and possibly finish other mana-giving items (e.g. Sheen/Trinity, token late-game Banshee's). And instead of AS and MR, you get "infinite" mana with which to spam your skills. The only drawback is that you have to make an early down payment on the Tear, and of course be a champion sufficiently able to build the bonus mana.

I dunno, it seems like a perfectly reasonable option to me. It's easy to run out of mana quickly after a single gank attempt in your lane (by either team, from defending yourself or trying to secure kills). Any significant harass tends to require quickly drying up your mana pool. If I don't run out of mana while the enemy does, I'm going to eventually exert control over the lane with my superior damage. You know how an AP mid with blue buff always beats the one without it? Same deal basically, except anybody you'd build Manamune on probably never gets blue buff. (Even for AP mid, you don't always get blue... and heaven forbid you ever have an AP jungler, like Fiddles or Amumu.) By the time laning starts to break down and your huge mana pool becomes a little less useful in terms of sustain, now your Manamune is one of the most efficient sources of damage in the game, an item you can be proud to wield up through the point where you're selling it off for a 55-minute Bloodrazor or whatever if your game goes that long.

and I see thorns trololololo-ing even though his post his since disappeared X)
 
Are you seriously suggesting that Tear would be a good item for Ashe? Cause if you're sticking with 15 minutes, I really don't think you've done the math here.

At Level 9 when you've maxed Volley you are only maxing tear at 16 minutes. Eventually you are going to get Manamune, but I'm sure you won't be auto-attacking in lane, so if you are god-like with your last hits you might shave off a whole half a minute from that estimate. Of course we both know that estimate is bullshit, as 300 extra mana will not sustain Volley every four seconds. Then there is the fact that we're pretending you'll have a Level 9 Volley when you get Tear at Level 3. With a Level 3 Volley, you are making progress towards getting 1000 Mana at 66 minutes. Oh sure, Hawkshot and your ult will shave the tiniest bit off the time it takes to max Tear, but not much when they have cooldowns of or longer than a minute. A fairer estimate for an Ashe who is playing smart might be a maxed tear at 30 minutes. No, honestly, I think it would take longer in practice.

Ez is a fairer estimate though right? At least at Level 3 you're working towards 22 minutes if you stay at fountain that long. Granted you won't have Essence Flux for a while. And if you spam your escape move in order to build Tear you should just uninstall.

And for all this talk about building up Tear? Manamune will give you 26 extra AD from its mana alone. Then when you hit level 18 and have over a thousand mana yourself (yeah, what's all this talk about needing Tear to spam late game when your mana pool builds as you level?), you end up with 46 AD. Unless you get more mana items, which you SURELY wouldn't need for the mana at this point, but you'll probably get a Banshee's Veil (oh wait, no, you'd get a QSS) which gives you 7 more AD for a total of 53. What was that about 80 late game? That would require 1350 more mana at this point! That's more than a fully charged tear.

Both Ashe and Ez are bad examples in general though because cost efficient doesn't mean shit to a late game carry. Maybe to Yorick and Blitzcrank (the former having legit mana problems and the later loving mana), but not to ranged AD outside of Urgot. Manamune is cost efficient compared to Bloodthirster? So what, it's still worse. You'd still rather have a Last Whisper. An item with just AD and Mana? Even Infinity Edge, which is mostly outrageous amounts of AD, is worth more if you can routinely crit. Though frankly I don't remember the last time I built an IE over a BT, because a life steal + damage item is also better than pure ad even with 1000 extra mana. Hell, maybe I'm gonna get criticized for this, but I'd rather have 2 Phantom Dancers than 1 Manamune (doesn't hurt having a movement speed fetish).

And no, 300 extra mana is NOT sustain. Having twice the mana pool means exactly the same thing when you've run out of mana due to spamming. I always try to keep myself at half mana, so that I have some for a gank. Hell, you can do this with only Mana regen runes on most characters.
 
i kinda am sick of losing because i keep getting paired up with free week irelias. she's really fun to play but guys c'mon, stop getting killed because you can't time your e properly

also on the topic of akali bans, i also agree that it's annoying how she's the default ban of choice. she is not that scary unless you feed her though you can't trust everyone not to (for instance, my latest game was a 4v5 victory where our opponents surrendered at 20 because our mid akali got three kills on their jungle riven, kicked the stuffing out of their garbage karthus and proceeded to clean up the mess in the other lanes). i'd rather ban vayne, there's a royal pain in the ass for me.

on another note, i'm at lv 29, should be at 30 by the end of the week! i would be there sooner if school didn't get in the way ;.;
 
It annoys me that Jax doesn't get the amount of hate that Akali gets, even though he can become almost if not more so, impossible to fight late game. The amount of times that as a fed Jax I've been able to 1v4 or 1v5 the enemy team is disturbingly high. He also builds similarly, as one of the few truly dominant hybrid carries out there. It's purely out of annoyance that Jax isn't getting the same respect, but I really think that as a spiral character, he ranks among the Akalis and such with sheer destructive potential. (AoE stun, come on)
 
Is there any chance I would regret buying Gangplank? I like jungling but I don't know if I want to dedicate all that IP to a different set of runes. I have full sets of ArPen/MRPen reds, Armor Yellows, MR/lvl Blues and ArPen/AP Quints but the best jungling guides seem to suggest using Dodge Yellows (7380ip [HOLYSHIT]) and AS Reds/Blues (4920ip). Is Gangplank worth using if I'm going to lane? Or is it possible to have success jungling with him without AS runes?
 
Mr.E said:
I don't even play Akali and even I'm sick of the fact that I've had maybe two games in the past week where she hasn't been banned. (Actually, three after the latest shitfest that was playing with IPL. He was Akali.) Did I miss the part where she became good? She's still the same champion she's been for months now, a barely-above-average-not-really-competitive piece of mediocrity that snowballs well. Hell, she was even nerfed indirectly by the hit to Gunblade. SUDDENLY, LITERALLY BANNED 95% OF THE TIME! I do not understand and my confusion on the matter angers me. :chaos:
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Oh no you did nottttttt.

The reason why everyone's banning her is because tanky DPS aren't as common as they were 2-3 months ago. They are good counters to Akali as she's a burst assassin, so the general population didn't know how good and scary she was. Now that everyone instalocks Cait and Brand, they melt in 2 seconds while building glass cannon and scream OP.

Also, Akali is one of the reasons gunblade was nerfed, because it's just perfect for her.

And Akali is not mediocre. But the only thing more frustrating than bads banning her is bads USING her and feeding. /slits wrists

That's about it.
 
Wikey said:
Is there any chance I would regret buying Gangplank? I like jungling but I don't know if I want to dedicate all that IP to a different set of runes. I have full sets of ArPen/MRPen reds, Armor Yellows, MR/lvl Blues and ArPen/AP Quints but the best jungling guides seem to suggest using Dodge Yellows (7380ip [HOLYSHIT]) and AS Reds/Blues (4920ip). Is Gangplank worth using if I'm going to lane? Or is it possible to have success jungling with him without AS runes?
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nonono, there's no reason to run dodge on gangplank. armor seals are hella better for jungling.

other than that i recommend you get ArP reds and AD quints. your jungle time will be considerably slower than if you ran the proper 7 AS reds 2 ArP reds full ArP quints but ArP red/AD quints are standard for every laning AD champ and they aren't terrible in the jungle either. AS blues are never necessary.
 
dodge is a better choice on like...udyr (because of his dodge passive) and on some junglers (nocturne and mummy are the only ones that come to mind) who also take scaling mr just so you a have a stronger lategame

as blues are never necessary but i like them a hell of a lot because i do consider my clear speed to be important...even if it's only a few seconds
 
They're better in different situations. Dodge is better in team fights because in the end, having a little more armor is only going to mitigate a small amount of damage from their AD carry which in the long run of a fight is pretty much insignificant, however having a bit of Dodge can allow you to avoid an entire hit, which is pretty huge. On the flip side, armor is more consistent (for obvious reasons), and is nigh necessary for jungling (you don't want to get unlucky and be unable to solo blue buff for example). This consistency makes it a little nicer in the laning phase because you are assured in your defense against auto-attack harassment whereas dodge can sometimes let you down.

Personally I think Dodge is better since usually when you're taking a killing blow from an AD carry you were probably going to get killed regardless of whether or not you had a little more armor... so might as well roll the dice and hope you get lucky with some Dodge... I was watching chauster stream once and he got dodged vs. Udyr with 100 HP something like 3-4 times. Do you think that Udyr would have traded his ~15% dodge chance for a bit more armor?

not to even mention that armor is crazy easy to itemize and you quite often get 150++ armor just by buying items with other stats that you wanted.
 
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