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League of Legends: Let's Talk About uhhh??
- Thread starter Thorns
- Start date
Jax is a great dueler and top, but is tricky to play in team fights. Like Tryn, as long as you have hard CC at the ready, he is a manageable threat. He actually takes plenty of skill to play so I'm not particularly afraid of free week Jax.
nobody wants to see 6 games in a row of karthus because PRESS R ONCE YOU DIE LOL DEAD AD CARRY CAM.
he's pretty much flash into middle of enemy team, zhonyas, kayle ult, die then ult and hope you got everyone in your (BAN ME PLEASE) aoe.
yyyyyyyyyyyawn.
botlane was horribly boring too because of the endless corki vs graves games. (BAN ME PLEASE) riot learn to balance. also urgot is disgusting don't want to see him there either. seeing malphite do serious work was way more interesting than watching whether corki or graves can outburst the other first.
he's pretty much flash into middle of enemy team, zhonyas, kayle ult, die then ult and hope you got everyone in your (BAN ME PLEASE) aoe.
yyyyyyyyyyyawn.
botlane was horribly boring too because of the endless corki vs graves games. (BAN ME PLEASE) riot learn to balance. also urgot is disgusting don't want to see him there either. seeing malphite do serious work was way more interesting than watching whether corki or graves can outburst the other first.
It was basically tl;dr
If I felt trolly I'd buy it on Yorick or something, maybe blitz (but that's a stretch). AP blitz is much more fun.
They didn't even play 6 games in a row with Karthus... He takes just as much skill to play as most of the other mid lane champions, so I don't see why you're bashing on him because you're too lazy to calculate in his ult when you're trying to lane properly.
I think you must have missed all of the Kog'maw, Ashe, Vayne, Urgot and Ezreal games; otherwise we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
Seriously, this is almost as bad as someone saying "Omg riot plz nerf, too op".
Urgot got a nerf already as well various other champ fixes that weren't in effect because this was Pre-Draven. All of these things weren't suddenly thrown into the game either, they've been there this whole bloody time. The lower community just see's that something does really well in a tournament and then goes on a rampage about how OP it is whenever they lose to it in their own games. They're constantly seeking something to blame their low elo on because obviously they shouldn't be there, this must be keeping them from it.
Ravix: Maybe, just maybe now, it's not actually about the champs being unbalanced or yeti complaining about it as such, but rather about how from a spectator point of view, Karthus and Graves and Corki are stupidly boring champions to watch.
I honestly don't expect Yeti to be serious with the "Riot please learn to balance comment".
I honestly don't expect Yeti to be serious with the "Riot please learn to balance comment".
Were that the case I'd tell Yeti to stop complaining that they picked safe and effective champions that were able to win them the series. Not all of the champions are as flashy or reliant on skill shots (Seriously those graves ults didn't move you at all....) but they take just as much practice and skill to use.
Karthus, Graves, and Corki aren't boring champions to watch at all. That's an opinion and not one that is particularly cared for, you pick champions because they do what you want them to do. Not because they look pretty.
Apparently this was a rather boring tournament for some of you, that's fine, but I was on the edge of my seat for most of it. This was one of the best tournaments (in terms of the actual matches, not the conditions themselves) that I've seen so far. (And I've seen just about all of them)
This game has truly evolved into a great Esport and one thing i would HATE to see is Riot changing things just to make it more flashy, that's utterly appalling. They already cave into the mad ravings of the low community on the forums and such, let's not take it farther than that..
i only play champions who look pretty. graves, corki and karthus are all mad boring to watch when they are used so much. there's nothing new in any of their games.
ap kog will always be enjoyable to watch and see if he can snipe people with his ult (froggen quadra real.), vayne is fun because she's SO squishy but when she gets serious and kills all you're like YEA VAYNE.
urgot meanwhile is just hideous and i hate seeing him. however, him + anivia walls were at least good plays to see. anivia is a thrill to watch because when she gets clutch walls it's gg and seeing her stun hit is real.
the quantity of graves and corki in the tourney compared to every other ad shows there is clearly something wrong with the balance of bot lane. why pick mf or cait when you have graves and corki? imo ashe is balanced and in a good place, but something is clearly imbalanced with corki/graves vs mf/cait/even sivir and vayne who were infrequently used and vayne's win rate was abysmal.
trist saw some use but her most memorable game she was ap and ap kog was more popular than ad kog.
it gets so tiring to watch graves vs corki over and over again, plus imo neither is enjoyable to watch in the first place.
it also says something about the balance that they are picked so much. their win rates aren't astronomically high because they can still be outplayed or zerged, but the quantity of times they are picked indicates "why pick any other ad when you have these two or urgot" which means something is horribly wrong with the other ad carries.
also lmao karthus takes skill. LMAO. all you have to do is drop skittles on minions then press e to farm. then flash into enemy team with e on, hope you got all of them in your e, then press r. he takes way less skill than other mids while being incredibly more dull to watch. the ONLY way to avoid his r is to hope your mid gets vision on him and stuns him if he hasn't died yet, oh yeah, man, the suspense!!!!! not really.
"all the vayne games" lmao she had like 6, got carried by malph in one where the most remarkable thing she did was not die, got a quadra in another and still lost because kog ults wreck and she got zerged by mundo/udyr, was worth minion-tier gold either in that one or another, got carried by ryze to lategame where she kind of did stuff ?_? and had one notable game where she had actual plays. she's in a bad place but nerfing kog isn't the full solution.
picking safe and effective champions YAWN. even if you win you're still a boring (BAN ME PLEASE). malph doing work is interesting, the exact same teamcomps over and over is just zzzzz.
also great esport LMFAO Leona's e will just randomly not fire but still go on cd without her moving. when it glitches less it will maybe be "great" otherwise it's just a joke; a good chunk of the champions aren't remotely competitively viable.
ap kog will always be enjoyable to watch and see if he can snipe people with his ult (froggen quadra real.), vayne is fun because she's SO squishy but when she gets serious and kills all you're like YEA VAYNE.
urgot meanwhile is just hideous and i hate seeing him. however, him + anivia walls were at least good plays to see. anivia is a thrill to watch because when she gets clutch walls it's gg and seeing her stun hit is real.
the quantity of graves and corki in the tourney compared to every other ad shows there is clearly something wrong with the balance of bot lane. why pick mf or cait when you have graves and corki? imo ashe is balanced and in a good place, but something is clearly imbalanced with corki/graves vs mf/cait/even sivir and vayne who were infrequently used and vayne's win rate was abysmal.
trist saw some use but her most memorable game she was ap and ap kog was more popular than ad kog.
it gets so tiring to watch graves vs corki over and over again, plus imo neither is enjoyable to watch in the first place.
it also says something about the balance that they are picked so much. their win rates aren't astronomically high because they can still be outplayed or zerged, but the quantity of times they are picked indicates "why pick any other ad when you have these two or urgot" which means something is horribly wrong with the other ad carries.
also lmao karthus takes skill. LMAO. all you have to do is drop skittles on minions then press e to farm. then flash into enemy team with e on, hope you got all of them in your e, then press r. he takes way less skill than other mids while being incredibly more dull to watch. the ONLY way to avoid his r is to hope your mid gets vision on him and stuns him if he hasn't died yet, oh yeah, man, the suspense!!!!! not really.
"all the vayne games" lmao she had like 6, got carried by malph in one where the most remarkable thing she did was not die, got a quadra in another and still lost because kog ults wreck and she got zerged by mundo/udyr, was worth minion-tier gold either in that one or another, got carried by ryze to lategame where she kind of did stuff ?_? and had one notable game where she had actual plays. she's in a bad place but nerfing kog isn't the full solution.
picking safe and effective champions YAWN. even if you win you're still a boring (BAN ME PLEASE). malph doing work is interesting, the exact same teamcomps over and over is just zzzzz.
also great esport LMFAO Leona's e will just randomly not fire but still go on cd without her moving. when it glitches less it will maybe be "great" otherwise it's just a joke; a good chunk of the champions aren't remotely competitively viable.
let's get mad at people for doing what they need to to win
Honestly this is a part of Sports. NFL has it it that Running the Ball isn't as entertaining as throwing it, but it'll win games just the same. The NBA has it where Efficient Jump Shooting isn't as attractive as driving the lane and dunking the ball but both will win.
What people become fans of (generally speaking) is players who can do the attractive things and win. So no real fans were gained by TSM playing Karthus every game. Fnatic won many fans after Dreamhack, because Shushei would play Gragas and AP Alistar and it was entertaining to watch him do so, and win. CLG.eu grew fans because Froggen plays AP Kog and Anivia (both entertaining champs) and wins with them, along with Wickd, who is an outstandingly interesting top laner (most of the time).
TSM, and Reginald specifically has it's fans because they play aggressive in lane and make big plays. Going Karthus is a very conservative approach, and all because they were more afraid of losing, rather than wanting to go out and win. I guess it can be argued that it's ultimately the same goal, but there is certainly a difference to the casual eye.
What people become fans of (generally speaking) is players who can do the attractive things and win. So no real fans were gained by TSM playing Karthus every game. Fnatic won many fans after Dreamhack, because Shushei would play Gragas and AP Alistar and it was entertaining to watch him do so, and win. CLG.eu grew fans because Froggen plays AP Kog and Anivia (both entertaining champs) and wins with them, along with Wickd, who is an outstandingly interesting top laner (most of the time).
TSM, and Reginald specifically has it's fans because they play aggressive in lane and make big plays. Going Karthus is a very conservative approach, and all because they were more afraid of losing, rather than wanting to go out and win. I guess it can be argued that it's ultimately the same goal, but there is certainly a difference to the casual eye.
Yeti just explained why he/she isn't a top level player, thank you for that stunning analysis.
9/10 of champions being picked or banned out over the course of quite a few tournaments leads us to believe that they're doing "something" right.
As for Vayne, I'd have to ask Kog'maw about how well she's doing.
Your comments don't reflect anything remotely close to competitive talk, you're only talking about how "boring" they seem to you. Boo hoo.
**Edit
Graves and Corki were picked a lot at MLG, please nerf Riot.
9/10 of champions being picked or banned out over the course of quite a few tournaments leads us to believe that they're doing "something" right.
As for Vayne, I'd have to ask Kog'maw about how well she's doing.
Your comments don't reflect anything remotely close to competitive talk, you're only talking about how "boring" they seem to you. Boo hoo.
**Edit
Graves and Corki were picked a lot at MLG, please nerf Riot.
Then why the fuck did you just make it a full-fledged argument about how pro-players need to pick what they think will give them the best chances at winning and how I should realize and understand them doing that. Because Valkyries just explained what my post meant.
All I said was how tired I was at watching regi pick karth 5 out of the 6 final games and look where it went :|
It didn't really go anywhere, this all too common. It's understandable that you don't like it when they do that, but as long as you know why then it's okay. Their goal was to win, not cater to the spectator's dreams and desires.
Chill out man ^_^ Play some Cryocore Brand, he needs some more love.
Chill out man ^_^ Play some Cryocore Brand, he needs some more love.
the karthus picks were only kind of disappointing because i didnt get to see regi play some of the other champs he's good at like ahri or i'd like to have seen him bust out a gragas or something. but you cant blame him at all because clg kept showing that they couldnt really deal with it and im sure karthus+kayle was something they practiced extensively so it would really be a bad move if they didnt. im sure we would have seen some kennen+vlad if clg had not banned it.
Ravix just demonstrated why he's never going to get laid, thank you for confirming my speculation.
You are ignoring the point that Cait and MF are not considered viable by ANY of the pro teams who were at MLG. Vayne is only played by Doublelift for the most part, either because nobody else thinks her reward is high enough for her skill cap, can play her, or why would you play her when you have Corki/Graves/Kog, or even Trist to nuke you down with her DFG.
Sivir also saw a fair degree of neglect at the tourney. The older AD carries are mostly not used (by pros) because they cannot compare with Graves and Corki, or Kog/Vayne/Trist lategame, but Vayne has been nerfed a bit too hard and her skillcap is too high while her laning is absurdly poor. Clearly something is wrong with the AD balance but you're too stupid to accept it.
Let me guess, you have skins for Graves and Corki don't you?
i'm rly sry numbers dont make sense 2 u.
You are ignoring the point that Cait and MF are not considered viable by ANY of the pro teams who were at MLG. Vayne is only played by Doublelift for the most part, either because nobody else thinks her reward is high enough for her skill cap, can play her, or why would you play her when you have Corki/Graves/Kog, or even Trist to nuke you down with her DFG.
Sivir also saw a fair degree of neglect at the tourney. The older AD carries are mostly not used (by pros) because they cannot compare with Graves and Corki, or Kog/Vayne/Trist lategame, but Vayne has been nerfed a bit too hard and her skillcap is too high while her laning is absurdly poor. Clearly something is wrong with the AD balance but you're too stupid to accept it.
Let me guess, you have skins for Graves and Corki don't you?
i'm rly sry numbers dont make sense 2 u.
Yeah, OK, I think we're all pretty bored of watching you guys make fools of yourselves, why don't you just drop the argument because it's going nowhere. Ravix isn't going to stop being condescending and Yeti isn't going to stop being clueless. Conversation not going to progress.
At the very least cut the insults.
At the very least cut the insults.
reason why doublelift doesn't play caitlyn anymore is because he's improved to the point where he doesn't need chauster to hold his hand when he's playing a support that can't influence the overall feel of the lane much like galio or blitz
he plays vayne because vayne is super strong only she takes far too much mechanical skill for anyone else to bother with - it's just that he took the time to learn her
every ad carry is viable (even twitch) and has their own niche it's just people don't bother to learn them because it's much easier (and it incurs less rage from your solo queue partners) to just play graves every game lol
speaking of which i was disappointed we didn't see any varus (except by MRN, god bless their souls), he's a very spectator friendly champion with the no scope Qs and such (see the crowd reaction from all the skillshot snipes in this tournament with chaox on graves and xhazzard on nidalee)
he plays vayne because vayne is super strong only she takes far too much mechanical skill for anyone else to bother with - it's just that he took the time to learn her
every ad carry is viable (even twitch) and has their own niche it's just people don't bother to learn them because it's much easier (and it incurs less rage from your solo queue partners) to just play graves every game lol
speaking of which i was disappointed we didn't see any varus (except by MRN, god bless their souls), he's a very spectator friendly champion with the no scope Qs and such (see the crowd reaction from all the skillshot snipes in this tournament with chaox on graves and xhazzard on nidalee)
There are way too many champions for pro players to be top notch with all of them. People watch pro games and decide based solely on them what is viable and what is not. Other champs fall on the wayside for a long time being steadily buffed until they explode in popularity like Urgot.
Also since I doubt this is getting dropped and I don't feel like going to bed, on the viability of ADs:
MF hasn't been used basically at all on a pro level since Dreamhack last year, which brings us almost to a full year. Not much to say on her, pretty obvious Riot has needed to do something for a long time. Chaox was trying her briefly several patches ago and TSM used her in some minor events but they wound up dropping her pretty quickly. Don't think anyone would argue she could use a little help, though I don't think she's as bad off as she's made out to be. Still enjoy the character a lot.
Sivir probably got overnerfed in response to her remake making her pretty much god before that IEM TSM won, but she's hardly as competitively ignored as MLG makes her look. The NA/EU metagame favors certain champions and each of the teams have their favorite champions and Sivir is a good example of why that's misleading since she's pretty popular in Korea, ironically mostly to counter Graves, which surprisingly hasn't caught in NA too much yet. She's still has a powerful mechanic with the spell shield that shuts down some lanes and amazing engage/disengage support with her ult and passive.
Vayne could likely use some fine tuning since, like Sivir, she got nerfed from overpowered to perhaps a little too weak to be a general pick choice, but unlike Sivir her unique mechanics don't tend to help her laning so much as her team fight which makes it a little harder to get through the game. However, like Kog'maw she's plenty capable of being effective when comps are built for her, which I'd say is true of probably the middle 3/5 of heroes in the game (with 1/5 on either side being good enough to throw in wherever or bad enough that they don't really belong right now), and there are plenty of decently popular lanes Vayne/Taric and Vayne/Alistar counter. I think one thing that really hurt Vayne was the disappearance of Sona, since she was one of those characters Vayne could catch and eliminate in spite of the whole poke-lane-counters-kill-lane mentality some people had back when there were functional poke lanes bot. Kog'maw is in a similar position as Vayne in being the most severe representation of the AD carries role on the team with the weak early game and devastating late game, but gets better faster(6-7) and has a safer lategame due to his increased range, which makes it tough to pick Vayne over him when teams want a late game AD right now since Vayne is harder to play and offers limited reward compared to Kog if the enemy bot isn't squishy killbait.
The reason both of them see less use now is less due to a lack of power(though that certainly hurts in Vayne's case) so much as how much more aggressive the metagame has gotten at the pro level recently: while it's slowing down slightly, kill counts have been on the rise and game times have been on the decline and a lot of teams like TSM have begun favoring early game champions to try to blow open advantages early, which makes the game tougher for later game champions like Kog'maw and Vayne and obviously prevents them from using that sort of champ much themselves, which slants people's opinions of the metagame since by virtue of winning they were on the stream the most times and played more games than anyone but CLG. It shouldn't be too surprising that CLG is the main user of champions like Kog and Vayne for NA teams, since they tend to favor the longer games. If teams start adjusting their strategy to make it more difficult to blow the game open early, champions like Kog and Vayne would rise in useage without any changes even being made. There's plenty of other champions that have the same sort of rise and fall in usage based on team opinions and strategies in spite of having no change to their power at all: Karthus itself is a pretty good example, since while EU was using him a little more he basically vanished from NA for months outside of some rare appearances with Scarra and now he's suddenly become Regis main again. Cassiopeia did the reverse; she was almost seen as OP just a couple months ago and now she's seeing less use than Kayle(who is basically only played by one person).
Tristana has always been favored mostly be European teams, so I don't think it's a surprise to anyone her usage was so low at this event given that it was almost exclusively made up of NA teams(and of course, almost all of her uses were by Fnatic). Tristana just isn't a character that any of the NA ADs have ever favored much and it's had little to do with game strength because they tended not to favor her even at times when she was considered one of the best options. Tristana doesn't lack favor in NA because she's too weak to use, she just isn't used much because the NA players all have other ADs they'd prefer to master or who fit better into their team's strategies and it's not reasonable for pros to be perfect at every character in their role.
The only one other than Sivir I think actually needs some help is Ezreal, since even though his midgame damage is pretty amazing you have to play twice as well with him to get the same damage as everyone else and he doesn't have massive utility or a really strong lategame to make up for it. Varus might fall under this too; his utility is a lot higher but it's a little disheartening to see how little use he's gotten from the pros since his release... I'd wager Draven will be seeing a lot more use at Dreamhack than Varus will already and that's not a good sign for the character.
The one AD I still think is a big problem is Urgot, just because I find his playstyle to be inherently uninteresting from a spectator perspective (zones more than almost any character in LoL, has a lockon mechanic so the room for counterplay is limited once he hits, swap is kind of exciting but tends to result in easy pickoffs that don't lead to fun teamfights, only really interesting to watch for the camera because of the chance of an enemy getting smeared before they can move which is interesting but not particularly fun), but crowds seem to disagree with me based on the reaction to some of the stuff Urgots do, I guess.
I think if Graves or Corki actually had any balance issues you'd see them drawing bans(which basically or literally never happened) or having higher win rates (see: Sivir at the IEM TSM won, Vayne in I believe Dreamhack last year, Graves at his first tournament), which you don't here; you just see teams picking champions that are reliable and fit the strategies and playstyles they want to use.
MF hasn't been used basically at all on a pro level since Dreamhack last year, which brings us almost to a full year. Not much to say on her, pretty obvious Riot has needed to do something for a long time. Chaox was trying her briefly several patches ago and TSM used her in some minor events but they wound up dropping her pretty quickly. Don't think anyone would argue she could use a little help, though I don't think she's as bad off as she's made out to be. Still enjoy the character a lot.
Sivir probably got overnerfed in response to her remake making her pretty much god before that IEM TSM won, but she's hardly as competitively ignored as MLG makes her look. The NA/EU metagame favors certain champions and each of the teams have their favorite champions and Sivir is a good example of why that's misleading since she's pretty popular in Korea, ironically mostly to counter Graves, which surprisingly hasn't caught in NA too much yet. She's still has a powerful mechanic with the spell shield that shuts down some lanes and amazing engage/disengage support with her ult and passive.
Vayne could likely use some fine tuning since, like Sivir, she got nerfed from overpowered to perhaps a little too weak to be a general pick choice, but unlike Sivir her unique mechanics don't tend to help her laning so much as her team fight which makes it a little harder to get through the game. However, like Kog'maw she's plenty capable of being effective when comps are built for her, which I'd say is true of probably the middle 3/5 of heroes in the game (with 1/5 on either side being good enough to throw in wherever or bad enough that they don't really belong right now), and there are plenty of decently popular lanes Vayne/Taric and Vayne/Alistar counter. I think one thing that really hurt Vayne was the disappearance of Sona, since she was one of those characters Vayne could catch and eliminate in spite of the whole poke-lane-counters-kill-lane mentality some people had back when there were functional poke lanes bot. Kog'maw is in a similar position as Vayne in being the most severe representation of the AD carries role on the team with the weak early game and devastating late game, but gets better faster(6-7) and has a safer lategame due to his increased range, which makes it tough to pick Vayne over him when teams want a late game AD right now since Vayne is harder to play and offers limited reward compared to Kog if the enemy bot isn't squishy killbait.
The reason both of them see less use now is less due to a lack of power(though that certainly hurts in Vayne's case) so much as how much more aggressive the metagame has gotten at the pro level recently: while it's slowing down slightly, kill counts have been on the rise and game times have been on the decline and a lot of teams like TSM have begun favoring early game champions to try to blow open advantages early, which makes the game tougher for later game champions like Kog'maw and Vayne and obviously prevents them from using that sort of champ much themselves, which slants people's opinions of the metagame since by virtue of winning they were on the stream the most times and played more games than anyone but CLG. It shouldn't be too surprising that CLG is the main user of champions like Kog and Vayne for NA teams, since they tend to favor the longer games. If teams start adjusting their strategy to make it more difficult to blow the game open early, champions like Kog and Vayne would rise in useage without any changes even being made. There's plenty of other champions that have the same sort of rise and fall in usage based on team opinions and strategies in spite of having no change to their power at all: Karthus itself is a pretty good example, since while EU was using him a little more he basically vanished from NA for months outside of some rare appearances with Scarra and now he's suddenly become Regis main again. Cassiopeia did the reverse; she was almost seen as OP just a couple months ago and now she's seeing less use than Kayle(who is basically only played by one person).
Tristana has always been favored mostly be European teams, so I don't think it's a surprise to anyone her usage was so low at this event given that it was almost exclusively made up of NA teams(and of course, almost all of her uses were by Fnatic). Tristana just isn't a character that any of the NA ADs have ever favored much and it's had little to do with game strength because they tended not to favor her even at times when she was considered one of the best options. Tristana doesn't lack favor in NA because she's too weak to use, she just isn't used much because the NA players all have other ADs they'd prefer to master or who fit better into their team's strategies and it's not reasonable for pros to be perfect at every character in their role.
The only one other than Sivir I think actually needs some help is Ezreal, since even though his midgame damage is pretty amazing you have to play twice as well with him to get the same damage as everyone else and he doesn't have massive utility or a really strong lategame to make up for it. Varus might fall under this too; his utility is a lot higher but it's a little disheartening to see how little use he's gotten from the pros since his release... I'd wager Draven will be seeing a lot more use at Dreamhack than Varus will already and that's not a good sign for the character.
The one AD I still think is a big problem is Urgot, just because I find his playstyle to be inherently uninteresting from a spectator perspective (zones more than almost any character in LoL, has a lockon mechanic so the room for counterplay is limited once he hits, swap is kind of exciting but tends to result in easy pickoffs that don't lead to fun teamfights, only really interesting to watch for the camera because of the chance of an enemy getting smeared before they can move which is interesting but not particularly fun), but crowds seem to disagree with me based on the reaction to some of the stuff Urgots do, I guess.
I think if Graves or Corki actually had any balance issues you'd see them drawing bans(which basically or literally never happened) or having higher win rates (see: Sivir at the IEM TSM won, Vayne in I believe Dreamhack last year, Graves at his first tournament), which you don't here; you just see teams picking champions that are reliable and fit the strategies and playstyles they want to use.
varus is probably one of my favourite ad carries. i enjoy his lack of usage because some people are unaware of his game breaking contribution in team fights. when you have bruisers chasing you late game, its fairly easy to kite with e and popping q can shred a lot of defensive bruisers as well. if they get too close, you can always pop r as well. he probably won't hyper carry a game, but he can surely devastate a team fight, especially in the jungle where you have very little wiggle room to escape his aoe stun.