Luvdiscs vs. Stars

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I think no matter what, people are going to have a problem with a rating system, so long as one exists. Despite my dislike how a luvdisc looks, the fact that it only represents someone "liking" a thread and not necessarily deeming it "good" is probably the best system we can hope to get. And as someone earlier said, the best way to make the best use of the current system is to lead by example, and like actually good threads, so people don't just scroll through threads and like things because they think that's what everyone else is doing. As far as an "unlike" feature goes, I think that'd be a little superfluous, and at times a bit coercive? I mean, it would be unfortunate if you do Luvdisc a thread, and then as time goes on it gets progressively shittier and you're like "damn, I don't really like this anymore." Although, because every luvdisc is kept anonymous, it's not that big a deal.

I think people are always going to be unhappy/discontent with whatever system we do have, but we'll probably always need one since people don't want to see wasted posts in a thread that read nothing more than "good thread."
 
I think by "Unlike" they're referring to downvoting, not cancelling.
 
Kevin Garrett said:
I like the idea of limiting luvdiscs to badgeholders and showing them in the forum after they get 1.
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I guess I'm an elitest douchebag or whatever but this seems like the best solution.

The current system doesn't really show whether or not a thread is "good" or not, especially in certain areas that imo a rating system is more important for (RMT, Tournament, etc). This fixes that because with less threads being Luvdisc'd, only the threads that deserve them get Luvdisc'd, making them more visible.

I would like the star system in a world where people can maturely handle them, but they can't. This has obviously happened in the past, and as long as we continue to badge members who are immature (wouldn't that be nice?) this won't change. The luvdisc system obviously isn't immune to immature abuse, but it definitely minimizes it as much as possible which is apparently necessary.

That being said, I really don't care either way and am somewhat fine with what we have at the moment.
 
agreeing with reinstating the star system. stars used to strike out at me when looking at a list threads where as i don't give two shits about a thread with 17 luvdiscs. there were plenty of classic threads that i, and i imagine others, stumbled upon in the past simply because of the star rating.
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i echo these sentiments, luvdiscs were hilarious for the first week or so but id really prefer to go back to the old system for the above reasons
 
Ramblin Wreck said:
Well, thanks to me, you don't see every thread with a luvdisc. A couple hours after the switch from stars was made, I luvdisc'd every thread on the first five pages of Wi-fi, Stark, Firebot, and I was three pages into Cong when the way luvdiscs displayed was changed. Now a thread has to have 6 luvdiscs for it to show on the forum.

I can't say I've ever noticed clusters of bad threads with that number of luvdiscs; it seems to me that you're making an issue where there is none.

One thing I would like is an option to remove a luvdisc you gave a thread. Say the first three pages of a thread were really great, but then seven more pages came along that are just crap. I think it would be nice to be able to remove a luvdisc to reflect the change in your opinion of the thread.
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I don't understand how your first paragraph explaining your crazy rating with luvdiscs reinforce your argument about keeping them public. TIK gave an example of a page with random luvdisc'd threads, so there you go. I was using my point to say that luvdiscs used by the entire community don't always tell you when something is good; they show more popularity then anything else. Stars, on the other hand, or any rating system put only in badged users' hands will lead to good threads most of the time, not based on popularity. Popularity with luvdiscs does obviously mean something has to be good, but sometimes its not and misleading, which is annoying when you're looking for good content like Atticus said. If you haven't noticed there are more luvdisc'd threads then starred threads when they were in use. As I said before, I think making a rating system put solely in badged users' hands will be better, and mark a higher threshhold for threads to achieve. And, as franky said we could always go back to stars because luvdiscs are a little weak.
 
if it's worth anything, i really hate the luvdiscs. user: ShuckleIzTehCooliest1337 (not a real user!) and his dumb friends can simply luvdisc each other's threads all day, and so it really takes away from the accountability that the star rating system held. i honestly never even thought that there was anything wrong with the star rating system; the "trolling" was hardly noticeable and everything, for the most part, seemed to flow quite smoothly. the community at large seems to really want stars back (from what i can tell), so i really think that they should be put in again.

there isnt much else that i can add to the thread at this point, so this is just my meager two cents.
 
Regarding Like exclusivity:

I care about 6 guys liking each other's threads about as much as I care about the 2 badgeholders that like my thread. Both are completely meaningless. Under exclusivity, threads will get 1 or 2 Likes tops; just like the star system, most convential threads won't recieve any ratings at all. Under the current system, people have to form some kind of 6-way collaboration just to get it show up, and if it does...so what?

Regarding Likes being bad or worse than Stars:

The only argument I've seen against Likes is that people can like each other's threads. Why is this such a big deal? As I said above, it takes a 6-way collaboration just to get it to show on the thread listings, and even if they manage to pull that off, so what?

In fact it's a lot more likely for you guys to pull it off than a "bunch of random users," and hell under a star or exclusivity system you can (and very likely will) end up doing this. If your friend tells you to 5 star or Like their thread, are you honestly going to tell them no?

Ultimately I see this is a non-issue. LizardMan (below) also put it beautifully; you're judging all nonbadge members for something a few members could do (read: there haven't been any instances of this), and as I said above it's more likely to be abused by exlusivity than not. Most support for stars or excluve-Likes comes from badged members, and a large chunk of those didn't have access to star ratings before the Like feature..
 
So all the non-badged members are guilty until proven innocent? That just isn't right.

We have legitimate non-badged members too who are mature enough not to abuse the system. So because of the people who abuse the Luvdisc ratings, have to ruin it for everyone else? Last time I checked, the reason the stars got revoked was because of badged members themselves.

As much as I respect everyone here, how often did you see a 5 starred thread that was not made by a badged member? Barely any at all. So does that mean non-badged members cannot make "good" threads or something? No, but when I see 5 stars, I almost automatically knew the thread was made by a badged member.

Also, someone stated before that no rating system is perfect. That is true, but wouldn't it be better on what the community itself thinks? Not just a select group of members. This is a very large forum, and I just simply feel that we make it up as a whole. Without the badged members, the forum would die. However, without non-badged members, the forum would die as well.

This is just my opinion. It doesn't mean it is right, but it is honestly what I think.
 
The only real purpose of a rating system is to discourage "approval posts" or the pc++ "Great job!" bullshit people post. However, it never does that, ever. People post that all the time anyway.

Maybe we should just get rid of ratings altogether. Stars were not "properly used", they were a flag of whether or not the thread OP was cool.
 
Chris is me said:
The only real purpose of a rating system is to discourage "approval posts" or the pc++ "Great job!" bullshit people post. However, it never does that, ever. People post that all the time anyway.

Maybe we should just get rid of ratings altogether. Stars were not "properly used", they were a flag of whether or not the thread OP was cool.
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I wouldn't mind that either. This is always an option as well.
 
The fact that this is an issue at all warranting 60+ posts is absolutely ridiculous. I'm certain neither system ever did much good or harm but who should really give a shit. Get rid of both if you absolutely have to, but Luvdiscs work just as well as any rating system on the internet ever did.
 
Stars were used exactly the same as Luvdiscs are not except they also had a downvote option (0 stars). 90%+ of the time people used 5 stars or 0 stars and I'd say a majority of that time was spent with 5 stars.

Also, I actually have been using the Luvdisc instead of saying "great post". Although I wish I could do it to individual posts in Firebot!
 
LizardMan said:
So all the non-badged members are guilty until proven innocent? That just isn't right.

We have legitimate non-badged members too who are mature enough not to abuse the system. So because of the people who abuse the Luvdisc ratings, have to ruin it for everyone else? Last time I checked, the reason the stars got revoked was because of badged members themselves.

As much as I respect everyone here, how often did you see a 5 starred thread that was not made by a badged member? Barely any at all. So does that mean non-badged members cannot make "good" threads or something? No, but when I see 5 stars, I almost automatically knew the thread was made by a badged member.

Also, someone stated before that no rating system is perfect. That is true, but wouldn't it be better on what the community itself thinks? Not just a select group of members. This is a very large forum, and I just simply feel that we make it up as a whole. Without the badged members, the forum would die. However, without non-badged members, the forum would die as well.

This is just my opinion. It doesn't mean it is right, but it is honestly what I think.
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This. Look at the RMT thread when stars were in place. 90% of the threads that had 5 stars were badged members.95% of the teams were either rehashed stall or some common boring team with some fancy pictures.Its totally unfair to say that all badged members have no weight in the forum.So what if there are users that seem unaware of what badged members think is a good thread. Who cares if you have 1 pokemon badge? Does a pokemon badge automatically make you a high intellect user? Hell no. Big phil had to "put his foot down" to stop Policy Review who is mostly run by badged users from trying to change pokemon into rock paper scissors with sprites. So badged users who are trying to change it back need to stop being elitist with your symbol and get over it.

As far as a compromise i guess badged members could get two luvdisk but everyone non badged member gets 1. Also my personal preference would be thumbs up because the disk look awkward with the pallet. maybe green or blue thumbs up.
 
Curtains said:
Look at the RMT thread when stars were in place. 90% of the threads that had 5 stars were badged members.95% of the teams were either rehashed stall or some common boring team with some fancy pictures.
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Quite frankly, I want to see the "boring" winning teams over their more, creative less successful cousins. Creativity is nice and all, and indeed often plays a part in top tier teams, but I want to see the best, regardless of creativity factor.


But I'm getting off topic. I really didn't use stars for anything other than finding good RMTs, so that is all I will address. The thing I liked most about stars was that it was easy to find a quality team by using it, even if "90%" of the teams that were rated were made by badged users. For some reason, people don't seem as willing to do this with luvdiscs for whatever reason. Maybe the teams just move too fast off the page to get 6, maybe good teams aren't being posted, I don't know. It makes it much harder to find quality teams.

Having said that, the bias in favor of badged members that Curtains mentioned was very real. I saw plenty of good teams that didn't get rated just because the person wasn't a badged member or a well-known battler. I'm not blaming the badged members for this; it's only natural that you visit the threads of a person you know more frequently than some random guy's thread.

My personal opinion is that we keep the current luvdisc system, and hope that people use it correctly. Since my issue with the system is the exact opposite of what other people's issues are with it (they are worried about abuse; I'm more concerned that people aren't using the current system to its fullest extent), I'm not sure how my views stack up with other supporters of luvdiscs. However, I agree on the fundamental principle that we should not punish the majority for the transgressions of the few.
 
Curtains said:
Big phil had to "put his foot down" to stop Policy Review who is mostly run by badged users from trying to change pokemon into rock paper scissors with sprites.

I think a lot of that had to do with overwhelming amounts of debate on trivial details, in an argument that niether side could win, and really didn't have big impacts. Kind of like this debate...
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We can have intelligent discussions on why badge holder only is clearly flawed and elitist without claiming all Smogon badge holers are incompetent assholes, everyone. Please refrain from doing so...
 
I'm not going to comment on the intelligence of badged users, but I will say that it could very well be that the star system got trolled more often because only badged users could vote.

Who are badged users? They (or 'we' as you will) are contributors-- what they really amount to are users who have invested more of their own time and energy to improving Smogon. What this means though is that they all have a more vested interest in Smogon and are more involved in the community and its workings.

To me, that translates to being users with stronger feelings about the community, and often users who are more ingrained in the politics. It is often inevitable that those types of members will have people they really like . . . and people who they really dislike.

That's where the 1-star trolling really flourished.

I would argue with a public user base accessing, even if you were to use stars, you have already taken a big step to weeding out the impact of "public vandetta" ratings. When threads get more ratings from more politically impartial members, you will inherently get rid of troll ratings.
 
Almost all of the last couple posts seem to be driven by "I want to keep my luv privilege even though I don't have a badge."

As for 'good' teams not made by badge holders getting rated, it's probably because they aren't that good of teams to begin with. Typically in this community, the better players tend to end up with a badge or two solely because they helpful, intelligent, and are the best at playing the game to which we dedicate this website. They earn their respect be it through Tiering Contributor, Tutor, PO Mods, etc. It is only fitting that the 'best' teams of this generation from the best players of this generation get the credit and respect they deserve. (Almost every member that I would highlight to win their tournament match with the exception of some relatively new users like ENZ0, apologies, Delta 2777, etc have a badge.) And, its not like I never see non-badge RMT's getting credit either. Teams like Team X: 3-4 RMT, Team Probat, Team Viva La Vida, Team Fireflies, and others were all posted before any user involved in making the team was badged. To say that 'good teams by non-badge holders don't get credit' is completely misguided. If your team is in fact good, you will get the credit you deserve, and if anyone knows a 'good team' from a 'bad team' it's certainly the members that dedicate time and effort to make this community run.

You guys brought up the point that there are good users capable of using the Luvdisc system. While this is true, plainly put, the reasons why Badged members should have sole voting rights is not because they are inherently smarter, but they have already proven they make intelligent decisions. May I remind you guys that the reason that the threshold was upped to 6 was because of stuff like this:

Ramblin Wreck (No Badge) said:
A couple hours after the switch from stars was made, I luvdisc'd every thread on the first five pages of Wi-fi, Stark, Firebot, and I was three pages into Cong when the way luvdiscs displayed was changed. Now a thread has to have 6 luvdiscs for it to show on the forum.
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How many instances did Stars/Badge Holder only privileges come into question? The only time I can think of is KG's RMT. Letting everyone have voting privileges was proven within hours to be a bad idea. The threshold number is quite clearly a symptom that non-badged users are less qualified to indicate if a thread is good.

The whole "badge holders are idiots" argument finds no footing at all, because it's those same idiots that constructed this website in one way or another over the last 6 years. I hesitate to call it coincidence that "Smogon the internet authority on competitive Pokemon" is run by a bunch of lame-o's that got lucky.

Also, for me, I don't care when the average user 'luvs' a thread. For all I know, they could be a total jerk or completely incompetent. Where's pride in getting that vote? Now if Badged users, esteemed members of this community, think a thread is worthy of a like, the thread carries infinitely more weight. Wow, intelligent, successful, and respected members of Smogon like my thread? That's a pretty cool feeling. Wow, someone with a forgettable username who I don't even know likes my thread? Whatever.

Forgive my elitestly leaning views, but you gotta come to this website humbly. You do work here, it gets noticed after time. I have seen countless numbers of Lady Bugs given out to promising users that haven't even been here more than a month or two. With a badge you get respect. You can't come to this website like you command enough respect to be entitled to anything. You have to earn it.
 
ENZ0 said:
I don't understand how your first paragraph explaining your crazy rating with luvdiscs reinforce your argument about keeping them public. TIK gave an example of a page with random luvdisc'd threads, so there you go.
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I'm sorry, but why is Wifi always disregarded? From an actual regular "wifiers" point of view, those are good threads that deserve positive ratings. The Luvdiscs aren't being abused, they aren't hurting anyone; they merely portray a part of the community that shows respect for a good thread and reliable trader.

I don't know, but it just seems kind of rude to assume that every user who does not have a badge is completely incompetent when it comes to rating a thread. Sure, maybe a group of 5 users will be biased and Luv each others' threads, but the same bias happened among badgeholders when star ratings were implemented.
 
@ undisputed

Why apologize for being an elitist? You just insulted basically the entire community. That is just like saying you hate all black people saying but wait...i apologize at the end.To be honest i dont give a flyin fuck about luvdisking because i don't use it. But to bring back stars because some people think having a symbol above your avatar makes you 100% more likely to make intelligent decisions is stupid.Until i can go to my professors and give them a pokemon badge saying i written a few analysis or i kick people out of a chat room or i drew a few pokemon and they give me an A then a badge =/= ability to make right decisions. A badge means nothing in the real.If i got a badge today i would still be making these points. Why? Because i dont need a badge to feel good.
 
Whether we keep the Luvdisc system or go back to stars, people who blatantly abuse the rating system should get Warnings. Nothing more would be needed to discourage abuse of ratings. Also, I agree that if Smogon keeps the Luvdisc system, people should have the option of "unliking" threads and removing their Luvdisc once they give them.
 
I believe that Stars should be used over the Luvdiscs. The thing about Luvdiscing a thread is that it is either a like or just leave it alone. There are threads that I've read that I have a mixed response towards, like "Wow! This user is making a couple of strong points/ I agree, but the user just doesn't really make sense/I don't like it." Similarly, there will be other threads that different users will be ambiguous towards. The stars give users the ability to gauge how much they like the thread.

If a thread poster were to check on his thread and find out he had 30 luvdiscs in a couple of days, all that the stat is telling the poster is that 30 people luvdisc'd the thread. It doesn't really say how well-received his thread was. Just that 30 people liked it. The stars supply a better rating because they have more options for the readers to choose.

However, users that want to troll can still use the 1-Star amount. I agree that the Rating system should be limited to certain users, just not necessarily badgeholders, as Smogon has communities that aren't restricted to just pokemon, and players that are well-known in one area of a forum aren't popular in different areas. I suggest that based off of a popular userbase of people that visit that section of the forum decide by popular vote who has the privilege to star ratings, similar to the procedure for PR access, so that User PokemonSucks (I don't think there is anyone by this username) or anyone with a similar rep should not be allowed to rate any thread in UT. Those people nominated and proven mature can star threads in that section. The same person can be nominated for different sections.
 
How many instances did Stars/Badge Holder only privileges come into question? The only time I can think of is KG's RMT. Letting everyone have voting privileges was proven within hours to be a bad idea. The threshold number is quite clearly a symptom that non-badged users are less qualified to indicate if a thread is good.
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Gouki 1 starred every Wi-Fi thread in sight once.
 
I kinda miss the star system, it let me do trollish stuff like 1-star the Hot Girls thread, an action which has got me nothing but hatred from IRC people.

Ok, I'm not helping my case.
 
undisputed said:
Almost all of the last couple posts seem to be driven by "I want to keep my luv privilege even though I don't have a badge."

As for 'good' teams not made by badge holders getting rated, it's probably because they aren't that good of teams to begin with. Typically in this community, the better players tend to end up with a badge or two solely because they helpful, intelligent, and are the best at playing the game to which we dedicate this website. They earn their respect be it through Tiering Contributor, Tutor, PO Mods, etc. It is only fitting that the 'best' teams of this generation from the best players of this generation get the credit and respect they deserve. (Almost every member that I would highlight to win their tournament match with the exception of some relatively new users like ENZ0, apologies, Delta 2777, etc have a badge.) And, its not like I never see non-badge RMT's getting credit either. Teams like Team X: 3-4 RMT, Team Probat, Team Viva La Vida, Team Fireflies, and others were all posted before any user involved in making the team was badged. To say that 'good teams by non-badge holders don't get credit' is completely misguided. If your team is in fact good, you will get the credit you deserve, and if anyone knows a 'good team' from a 'bad team' it's certainly the members that dedicate time and effort to make this community run.

You guys brought up the point that there are good users capable of using the Luvdisc system. While this is true, plainly put, the reasons why Badged members should have sole voting rights is not because they are inherently smarter, but they have already proven they make intelligent decisions. May I remind you guys that the reason that the threshold was upped to 6 was because of stuff like this:



How many instances did Stars/Badge Holder only privileges come into question? The only time I can think of is KG's RMT. Letting everyone have voting privileges was proven within hours to be a bad idea. The threshold number is quite clearly a symptom that non-badged users are less qualified to indicate if a thread is good.

The whole "badge holders are idiots" argument finds no footing at all, because it's those same idiots that constructed this website in one way or another over the last 6 years. I hesitate to call it coincidence that "Smogon the internet authority on competitive Pokemon" is run by a bunch of lame-o's that got lucky.

Also, for me, I don't care when the average user 'luvs' a thread. For all I know, they could be a total jerk or completely incompetent. Where's pride in getting that vote? Now if Badged users, esteemed members of this community, think a thread is worthy of a like, the thread carries infinitely more weight. Wow, intelligent, successful, and respected members of Smogon like my thread? That's a pretty cool feeling. Wow, someone with a forgettable username who I don't even know likes my thread? Whatever.

Forgive my elitestly leaning views, but you gotta come to this website humbly. You do work here, it gets noticed after time. I have seen countless numbers of Lady Bugs given out to promising users that haven't even been here more than a month or two. With a badge you get respect. You can't come to this website like you command enough respect to be entitled to anything. You have to earn it.
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As a community, we should respect each other as other individuals, not because someone has a pixel below their name. I respect your opinion. You are forgiven as well. I myself plan on contributing in the future, but just don't have the time. Perhaps when I get out of school.

Just because someone has a badge however, doesn't automatically mean they are smarter. Proven? Yes, but are disproved when they abuse the system. Better at pokemon? Alot of the time, but you have people like Stone Cold along with some others, who don't have a badge, and are damn good. Or you have the people who are at least "respectable battlers," who can really hold their own regardless of having a badge or not.
 
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