Metagame Workshop

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

So I'm thinking that Regenerator should be banned.
Thoughts from the community?

You shouldn't ban Regenerator just because there are a few mons that really abuse it on Stall / Balance. I think that it's more so relative to say that this meta has more underlining problems with the amount of new crazy bulky walls then just Regenerator. I get that you see how banning it would disrupt cores and a few very good mons can be gone, but then the 2nd best option will just be picked and will still be very stallish and hard to break.

That being said, it’s hard to recommend where to go from there. Ultimately, don’t ban Regenerator though.

Self-Improvement (Taking name suggestions)
Premise: Pokémon inherit the best value from their evolution chain so far for each stat (e.g. Incineroar gains Torracat's Speed, Porygon-Z has Porygon-2's Defenses, Steelix has Onix's Speed, but Litten doesn't gain Torracat's Speed and Lycanroc-Midnight doesn't gain Lycanroc-Midday's Speed).

Finer details (these are subject to change with community feedback):
- Pokémon will only gain from previous evolutions, and not from alternate forms of their current stage e.g. Meteor Minior doesn't inherit stats from Core Minior or vice versas. (Especially considering changing this one for more options)
- Mega Evolutions are counted as evolutions.
- Pokémon won't gain stats from branched evolution paths e.g. Slowbro doesn't gain from Slowking or vice versas.

All even slightly important changes with current rules (lemme know if I missed any of course):
Mega Beedrill: 65/150/40/45/80/145
Poliwrath: 90/95/95/70/90/90
Politoed: 90/75/75/90/100/90
Magnezone: 70/70/115/130/90/70
Steelix: 75/85/200/55/65/70
Mega Steelix: 75/125/230/55/95/70 (nice)
Tangrowth: 100/100/125/110/50/60
Scizor: 70/130/100/55/80/105 (yikes)
Mega Scizor: 70/150/140/65/100/105 (double yikes)
Electivire: 75/123/67/95/85/105
Magmortar: 65/95/67/125/95/93
Porygon-Z: 85/80/90/135/95/90 (OKAY)
Mega Ampharos: 90/95/105/165/110/55
Honchkrow: 100/125/52/105/52/91
Mega Heracross: 80/185/115/40/105/85
Octillery: 75/105/75/105/75/65
Pelipper: 60/50/100/95/70/85
Ninjask: 61/90/90/50/50/160
Shedinja HP and Defense buffs change nothing
Mega Sableye: 50/85/125/85/115/50
Mega Camerupt: 70/120/100/145/105/40
Armaldo: 75/125/100/70/80/75
Salamence: 95/135/100/110/80/100
Vespiquen: 70/80/102/80/102/70
Mega Garchomp: 108/170/115/120/95/102
Mega Abomasnow: 90/132/105/132/105/60
Leavanny: 75/103/90/70/80/92
Scolipede: 60/100/99/55/79/112
Crustle: 70/105/125/65/75/55
Escavalier: 70/135/105/60/105/60
Accelgor: 80/70/85/100/65/145
Volcarona: 85/85/65/135/105/100
Vivillon: 80/52/60/90/50/89
Mega Diancie: 50/160/150/160/150/110 (hahahahahahahahahahaha)
Incineroar: 95/115/90/80/90/90
Toucannon: 80/120/75/75/75/75
Vikavolt: 77/82/95/145/75/46
Crabominable: 97/132/77/62/67/63
Toxapex: 50/63/152/53/142/45
Mudsdale: 100/125/100/55/85/45
Golisopod: 75/125/140/60/90/80

Ubers changes (probably won't be relevant but these are pretty funny):
Mega Mewtwo Y: 106/150/90/194/120/140 (800 BST finally achieved)
Solgaleo: 137/137/131/113/131/97 (Not entirely outclassed anymore!)
Lunala: 137/113/131/137/131/97 (Bulkier than Lugia with Shadow Shield, 137 Sp.Atk and a 200 BP Z-Move, seems cool)

Threatlist:
Mega Scizor: Can run a variety of sets thanks to the Speed buff and outspeeds the slower meta without any investment.
Porygon-Z: The significant bulk increase improves all of Porygon-Z's sets, but most notably makes Z-Conversion much harder to kill.
Mega Diancie: Now ties for second highest BST (would be highest but Mega Mewtwo Y now has 800 BST), with its main weakness patched up effectively.

Questions:
- What are the winners and losers (if any losers) of this meta?
- Should Pokémon inherit stats from alternate in-battle forms, such as Zen Darmanitan, Pirouette Meloetta and Core Minior? If so, should it work both ways or should only the original / transformed form inherit?
- Should Mega Evolutions count as Evolutions like they currently do, or should they work differently (maybe gain as much as their base form did if applicable)?
- Does anything need banning? (Expecting people to say Mega Diancie)
- General thoughts?

So I counted 41 Pokemon (including megas) with new stat changes, 39 if you don’t count Shedninja and Mega Diance. Of those 39, I really only see about 12 mons here that can be OU viable, but 9 of those 12 are already ranked in OU as is. The 3 that might rise up are no doubt Mega Garchomp, and then maybe Electravire and Incineroar.

With a small portion of all Pokemon as a whole affected, and then only a portion of those affected Pokemon are likely to be fit for OU standards, I gotta ask; what’s the point for this meta? Yeah it’s cool to ask “what if,” but the ridiculously small set of meaningful changes makes this OM sound so boring and uninspiring.

If you are serious about making this a meta, why not try making it a pet mod. You can be more liberal with your changes and include maybe all fully invloved Pokemon to gain something more from their prevo, like accesses to previous abilities or even new moves. As is, the OM you’re suggesting is just too baren.

 

[tmacbalanced]

Pokemon to gain something more from their prevo, like accesses to previous abilities or even new moves. As is, the OM you’re suggesting is just too baren.

I already posted that idea last page but in reverse. Pre-Evolution Mons gain abilities and moves from the evolution chain (including megas)

 

[Annika]

You shouldn't ban Regenerator just because there are a few mons that really abuse it on Stall / Balance. I think that it's more so relative to say that this meta has more underlining problems with the amount of new crazy bulky walls then just Regenerator. I get that you see how banning it would disrupt cores and a few very good mons can be gone, but then the 2nd best option will just be picked and will still be very stallish and hard to break.

That being said, it’s hard to recommend where to go from there. Ultimately, don’t ban Regenerator though.

Something should be done about stall though. Maybe just ban the worst abusers, like Toxapex and Tangrowth.

And Ezaphs, I feel like you're not shaking things up enough. Only a few Pokemon are changed enough to matter, and the biggest change, Diancie, will be OP and banned. Maybe add something new.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Something should be done about stall though. Maybe just ban the worst abusers, like Toxapex and Tangrowth.

And Ezaphs, I feel like you're not shaking things up enough. Only a few Pokemon are changed enough to matter, and the biggest change, Diancie, will be OP and banned. Maybe add something new.

When theres an entire gamestyle that is too powerful and centralizing, it’s hard to blame a single or even a handful of mons. That alone shouldn’t be a verdict for a ban. Look at gen 2. Stall is extremely good and centralizing, but that’s just how the meta turned out is all. Not much in terms of counterplay.

For your meta, just playtest it more. If there’s a singular threat that is unfairly winning stall teams, then ban it.

 

[Eve]

So I counted 41 Pokemon (including megas) with new stat changes, 39 if you don’t count Shedninja and Mega Diance. Of those 39, I really only see about 12 mons here that can be OU viable, but 9 of those 12 are already ranked in OU as is. The 3 that might rise up are no doubt Mega Garchomp, and then maybe Electravire and Incineroar.

With a small portion of all Pokemon as a whole affected, and then only a portion of those affected Pokemon are likely to be fit for OU standards, I gotta ask; what’s the point for this meta? Yeah it’s cool to ask “what if,” but the ridiculously small set of meaningful changes makes this OM sound so boring and uninspiring.

If you are serious about making this a meta, why not try making it a pet mod. You can be more liberal with your changes and include maybe all fully invloved Pokemon to gain something more from their prevo, like accesses to previous abilities or even new moves. As is, the OM you’re suggesting is just too baren.

Thanks for the honest feedback. I definitely want to see how far this meta can be pushed in regards to inheriting from your own evolution line, so I'll try developing it further to make it less barren. Giving access to all prevolutions' abilities seems like a good start, and maybe also allowing Pokèmon to inherit from alternate forms or split evolutions. Those simple changes would add a lot (I've counted and 42 more Pokèmon are significantly affected just by inheriting abilities from previous evolutions). If anyone has other ideas on how to add more depth to this format let me know, but I'd rather keep it as an OM with generalized rules.

EDIT: had better idea, will update later

 

[ESN 64]

Who wants to battle my best foot forward team?

 

[Annika]

I'll battle you if you want.
I gotta see if I have a team that's not crappy.
My PS name is Annika0

 

[Eve]

Let's give Prevolution-based inheritance metas another go, this time with a more widely distributed effect!

Parental Bonds
Premise: Ubers based meta. Pokémon have 25% of their immediate prevolution's base stats (rounded down) added to their own base stats and gain access to their prevolution's Abilities where applicable. Stats cap out at 255 in order to comply with OM standards.

For example, these are Braviary's new stats:
100+17 / 123+20 / 75+12 / 57+9 / 75+12 / 80+15 = 117/143/87/66/87/95
it also gains access to Hustle from Rufflet.

Mega Evolutions provide the same distributed +100 BST as normal, but scale with their base form if it has prevolutions. E.g. Mega Tyranitar gets buffed, but Mega Latios does not.

This metagame is very high powered by nature, with some Ubers possibly not even being powerful enough to leave a mark. Pokémon with powerful prevolutions or ones with strong abilities are likely to stand out, such as Scizor thanks to Scyther's equal BST or Eeveelutions thanks to their Adaptability access.

Cool examples of what the meta does:
Mega Tyranitar + Pupitar: 117/185/167/111/137/83 Extremely bulky on both sides under Sand, while also having great Attack. One of the highest BST mons in the meta at a massive 800.
Naganadel + Poipole: 89/91/89/145/89/139 Mediocre bulk for the meta, but decent raw offensive stats in combination with Nasty Plot, good coverage and Beast Boost makes this quite a threatening sweeper on paper.
Mega Lucario + Riolu: 80/162/98/148/80/127 A good offensive check to Mega Tyranitar, and powerful in its own right. Also gets access to Prankster pre-Mega, but not sure how relevant that will be.
Chansey + Happiny: 255/6/6/38/121/57 Special attackers are never breaking this. Ever. Blissey + Chansey has slightly less bulk, but is a good choice if you want to run a different item or attacking moves.
Lunala + Cosmoem: 147/120/121/144/139/106 Lunala, but bulkier. Need I say more?
Aegislash + Doublade: Shield: 74/77/187/61/162/68 Blade: 74/177/87/161/62/68 Aegislash looks potentially busted, at least with Stance Change. If so, it has access to No Guard now so there isn't too much of an issue.

Bans: None yet
Unbans: Mega Rayquaza

Questions:
Should Mega Rayquaza be legal?
Should the stat scaling be changed in any way?
Does this meta sound better than the last one? Either way, how do you think it could be improved?
General thoughts?

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Let's give Prevolution-based inheritance metas another go, this time with a more widely distributed effect!

Parental Bonds
Premise: Ubers based meta. Pokémon have half their immediate prevolution's base stats (rounded down) added to their own base stats and gain access to their prevolution's Abilities where applicable.

For example, these are Braviary's new stats:
100+35 / 123+41 / 75+25 / 57+18 / 75+25 / 80+30 = 135/164/100/75/100/110
it also gains access to Hustle from Rufflet.

Mega Evolutions provide the same distributed +100 BST as normal, but scale with their base form if it has prevolutions. E.g. Mega Tyranitar gets buffed, but Mega Latios does not.

This metagame is very high powered by nature, with some Ubers possibly not even being powerful enough to leave a mark. Pokémon with powerful prevolutions or ones with strong abilities are likely to stand out, such as Scizor thanks to Scyther's equal BST or Eeveelutions thanks to their Adaptability access.

Cool examples of what the meta does:
Mega Tyranitar + Pupitar: 135/206/185/127/155/106 Extremely bulky on both sides under Sand, while also having great Attack. One of the highest BST mons in the meta at a massive 905.
Naganadel + Poipole: 106/109/106/163/106/157 Mediocre bulk for the meta, but decent raw offensive stats in combination with Nasty Plot, good coverage and Beast Boost makes this quite a threatening sweeper on paper.
Mega Lucario + Riolu: 90/180/108/157/90/142 A good offensive check to Mega Tyranitar, and powerful in its own right. Also gets access to Prankster pre-Mega, but not sure how relevant that will be.
Blissey + Chansey: 380/12/12/92/187/80 Special attackers are never breaking this. Ever. Chansey + Happiny has very similar bulk with Eviolite, but that limits item choice.
Lunala + Cosmoem: 158/127/154/151/172/115 Lunala, but bulkier. Need I say more?
Aegislash + Doublade: Shield: 89/105/225/72/174/77 Blade: 89/205/125/172/74/77 SD Aegislash looks potentially busted, at least with Stance Change. If so, it has access to No Guard now so there isn't too much of an issue.

Questions:
Should Mega Rayquaza be legal?
Should the stat scaling be changed in any way?
Does this meta sound better than the last one? Either way, how do you think it could be improved?
General thoughts?

Love the update you did with the meta! I have a few questions of my own, and then I'll answer yours.

-Shouldn't the base stats cap at 1 and 255 respectively? I'm pretty sure that's hard coded. And like MnM, the leftover stat changes should just be negated if they go above the stat limit.
-If you unban Mega Ray, it's almost like it's an AG based metagame. And trust me, megas like Tyranitar, Scizor, Gengar, and Salamence are no doubt AG potential. Even if you had some sort of mega clause, or you made it so megas negate the Parental Bonds stat changes, there are still a ton of uber threatening mons like: Aegislash, Z Conversion Porygon Z, and a Silvally with base 143 in every stat but speed. Like, maybe it be cool to have the first AG OM? Otherwise, I would say it is okay to unban Mega Ray anyways, because the power creep is ridiculous.
-Well, OM leaders tend not to like formula based OMs. It be cool if it was as simple as just adding the base stats on, but I know that be broken. I think this is the best way you have done it, and the formula condition is just something to live with. Personally, I don't mind formula OMs; but who cares what I think!
-Totally better, just as there are so many more sets and mons to play around with. A boring meta with little changes is never fun nor would catch on. However, I think the changes here may have gone too far, and it seems like a very over powered meta. I'd say to treat the megas as "form changes," so that the current mega stats will still be there, and won't be additive with the Parental Bond stat buffs.
-I think a better name could be present is all.

Also, I love how its a buff from the prevos and not just an overall buff. The problem I have with Tier Shift is that nothing 'feels' too different as its largely PU and NU mons, and thus the stat buffs just overwrite themselves. Here, with the stats being dependent on the prevos, you get all sorts of different stat changes. That really makes it more interesting and makes new matchups.

I'll edit this later with maybe some sets / threats that are immediately worth putting on a watchlist. I'd like to hear your input on my mega evolution suggestion first before is all.

 

[Eve]

Love the update you did with the meta! I have a few questions of my own, and then I'll answer yours.

-Shouldn't the base stats cap at 1 and 255 respectively? I'm pretty sure that's hard coded. And like MnM, the leftover stat changes should just be negated if they go above the stat limit.
-If you unban Mega Ray, it's almost like it's an AG based metagame. And trust me, megas like Tyranitar, Scizor, Gengar, and Salamence are no doubt AG potential. Even if you had some sort of mega clause, or you made it so megas negate the Parental Bonds stat changes, there are still a ton of uber threatening mons like: Aegislash, Z Conversion Porygon Z, and a Silvally with base 143 in every stat but speed. Like, maybe it be cool to have the first AG OM? Otherwise, I would say it is okay to unban Mega Ray anyways, because the power creep is ridiculous.
-Well, OM leaders tend not to like formula based OMs. It be cool if it was as simple as just adding the base stats on, but I know that be broken. I think this is the best way you have done it, and the formula condition is just something to live with. Personally, I don't mind formula OMs; but who cares what I think!
-Totally better, just as there are so many more sets and mons to play around with. A boring meta with little changes is never fun nor would catch on. However, I think the changes here may have gone too far, and it seems like a very over powered meta. I'd say to treat the megas as "form changes," so that the current mega stats will still be there, and won't be additive with the Parental Bond stat buffs.
-I think a better name could be present is all.

Also, I love how its a buff from the prevos and not just an overall buff. The problem I have with Tier Shift is that nothing 'feels' too different as its largely PU and NU mons, and thus the stat buffs just overwrite themselves. Here, with the stats being dependent on the prevos, you get all sorts of different stat changes. That really makes it more interesting and makes new matchups.

I'll edit this later with maybe some sets / threats that are immediately worth putting on a watchlist. I'd like to hear your input on my mega evolution suggestion first before is all.

- The 255 limit isn't actually explicitly enforced on Showdown from what I've seen, as I've seen a base 420 Speed Pheromosa with the correct actual Speed, but it is by the real game and by the Damage Calc (unless you copy a number in and click off quickly). It can of course be enforced if that's expected for an OM.
- Not sure I want to make it an AG meta as that leads to several matchup and luck based strategies that make the metagame even harder to prepare for or learn. A Mega clause could be possible but it might just be simpler to ban the offending Megas. Of course, they should be tried out first, and if there are too many then Megas might need to be reworked.
- The first draft of this meta was just a raw addition, then I realised that doing so made the power differences way too high and immediately changed it. It also scaled bulk too high due to HP and Defenses being increased. Scalemons is an approved OM and is significantly Formula based in its stat changes so hopefully this passes those standards.
- Megas do currently follow the form change rule (inheriting from the base form's prevo), and outright making many Megas worse versions of their base form seems kind of naff. Not sure about this one, and I'm honestly not sure that the megas will be insta-broken in this meta; there are many mons with not far below BSTs that have access to held items.
- Probably, yeah.

Yeah, Tier Shift's always been strange to me. Just feels like you're playing a game of NU half the time. That's why I like stat scaling metas like Scalemons; they actually balance out the power level instead of reversing it.

Thanks for your input once again!

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Let's give Prevolution-based inheritance metas another go, this time with a more widely distributed effect!

Parental Bonds
Premise: Ubers based meta. Pokémon have half their immediate prevolution's base stats (rounded down) added to their own base stats and gain access to their prevolution's Abilities where applicable.

For example, these are Braviary's new stats:
100+35 / 123+41 / 75+25 / 57+18 / 75+25 / 80+30 = 135/164/100/75/100/110
it also gains access to Hustle from Rufflet.

Mega Evolutions provide the same distributed +100 BST as normal, but scale with their base form if it has prevolutions. E.g. Mega Tyranitar gets buffed, but Mega Latios does not.

This metagame is very high powered by nature, with some Ubers possibly not even being powerful enough to leave a mark. Pokémon with powerful prevolutions or ones with strong abilities are likely to stand out, such as Scizor thanks to Scyther's equal BST or Eeveelutions thanks to their Adaptability access.

Cool examples of what the meta does:
Mega Tyranitar + Pupitar: 135/206/185/127/155/106 Extremely bulky on both sides under Sand, while also having great Attack. One of the highest BST mons in the meta at a massive 905.
Naganadel + Poipole: 106/109/106/163/106/157 Mediocre bulk for the meta, but decent raw offensive stats in combination with Nasty Plot, good coverage and Beast Boost makes this quite a threatening sweeper on paper.
Mega Lucario + Riolu: 90/180/108/157/90/142 A good offensive check to Mega Tyranitar, and powerful in its own right. Also gets access to Prankster pre-Mega, but not sure how relevant that will be.
Blissey + Chansey: 380/12/12/92/187/80 Special attackers are never breaking this. Ever. Chansey + Happiny has very similar bulk with Eviolite, but that limits item choice.
Lunala + Cosmoem: 158/127/154/151/172/115 Lunala, but bulkier. Need I say more?
Aegislash + Doublade: Shield: 89/105/225/72/174/77 Blade: 89/205/125/172/74/77 SD Aegislash looks potentially busted, at least with Stance Change. If so, it has access to No Guard now so there isn't too much of an issue.

Questions:
Should Mega Rayquaza be legal?
Should the stat scaling be changed in any way?
Does this meta sound better than the last one? Either way, how do you think it could be improved?
General thoughts?

167/205/190/77/77/60

95/100/162/190/125/95


Like Blissey, Rhyperior and Magnezone have prevos with decent stats, giving them hefty boosts to their already solid base stats.

 

[JTD783]

Let's give Prevolution-based inheritance metas another go, this time with a more widely distributed effect!

Parental Bonds
Premise: Ubers based meta. Pokémon have half their immediate prevolution's base stats (rounded down) added to their own base stats and gain access to their prevolution's Abilities where applicable.

For example, these are Braviary's new stats:
100+35 / 123+41 / 75+25 / 57+18 / 75+25 / 80+30 = 135/164/100/75/100/110
it also gains access to Hustle from Rufflet.

Mega Evolutions provide the same distributed +100 BST as normal, but scale with their base form if it has prevolutions. E.g. Mega Tyranitar gets buffed, but Mega Latios does not.

This metagame is very high powered by nature, with some Ubers possibly not even being powerful enough to leave a mark. Pokémon with powerful prevolutions or ones with strong abilities are likely to stand out, such as Scizor thanks to Scyther's equal BST or Eeveelutions thanks to their Adaptability access.

Cool examples of what the meta does:
Mega Tyranitar + Pupitar: 135/206/185/127/155/106 Extremely bulky on both sides under Sand, while also having great Attack. One of the highest BST mons in the meta at a massive 905.
Naganadel + Poipole: 106/109/106/163/106/157 Mediocre bulk for the meta, but decent raw offensive stats in combination with Nasty Plot, good coverage and Beast Boost makes this quite a threatening sweeper on paper.
Mega Lucario + Riolu: 90/180/108/157/90/142 A good offensive check to Mega Tyranitar, and powerful in its own right. Also gets access to Prankster pre-Mega, but not sure how relevant that will be.
Blissey + Chansey: 380/12/12/92/187/80 Special attackers are never breaking this. Ever. Chansey + Happiny has very similar bulk with Eviolite, but that limits item choice.
Lunala + Cosmoem: 158/127/154/151/172/115 Lunala, but bulkier. Need I say more?
Aegislash + Doublade: Shield: 89/105/225/72/174/77 Blade: 89/205/125/172/74/77 SD Aegislash looks potentially busted, at least with Stance Change. If so, it has access to No Guard now so there isn't too much of an issue.

Questions:
Should Mega Rayquaza be legal?
Should the stat scaling be changed in any way?
Does this meta sound better than the last one? Either way, how do you think it could be improved?
General thoughts?

Since Parental Bond was changed from 50% to 25% it would be more fitting to have the pre-evolutions' base stats be one quarter rounded down instead. It would also make things less absurdly powerful which helps balance things better.

A weird idea I had is to combine this with your Self-Improvement meta, where the final evo would take the highest stat among its evolution line and then factor in the 25% stat thing afterward. It fits with the concept of the earlier evolutions being used as support. In any case your idea sounds really cool.

 

[Eve]

Since Parental Bond was changed from 50% to 25% it would be more fitting to have the pre-evolutions' base stats be one quarter rounded down instead. It would also make things less absurdly powerful which helps balance things better.

A weird idea I had is to combine this with your Self-Improvement meta, where the final evo would take the highest stat among its evolution line and then factor in the 25% stat thing afterward. It fits with the concept of the earlier evolutions being used as support. In any case your idea sounds really cool.

The first part isn't a bad suggestion! I'll ask for more community input on this one. 25% of the prevo might be a better power level, and might not warrant an Ubers metagame.
The second part is a bit more awkward; I feel like it might get a bit convoluted at that point, and gives a very small pool of mons a large extra buff.


Other thing: I've speedily implemented the format and a stat check command on to my showdown server for trying out the meta! Use /pbond [mon] to check stats. The meta itself is on the farthest right column right under Other Metagames if you want to challenge someone to it! Hopefully being able to play the meta will help with figuring out what needs adjusting.

Played a game vs Ho3nConfirm3d, gg http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nexus-gen7parentalbonds-14280

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Another potentially interesting mon in Parental Bonds:

With base 200 speed, Electrode is one of the fastest Pokemon around, second only to Mega Zam, I think. Its movepool is rather barren, but with Taunt, Dual Screens, Volt Switch, and Explosion, it can carve a niche as a Screens suicide lead that can taunt even Deoxys-S.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and Mega Zam sounds terrifying. I haven't run the calcs yet, but Kadabra is pretty fast and strong, so it would give a big boost to base Alakazam, which is further boosted by Mega Evolution.

 

[Eve]

I've been posting a lot in this thread over the last day, so from now on I'll probably just edit the original Parental Bonds post with further changes / updates if you're interested in those. Just making this one to say that the prevolution stat buff is now decreased to 25%. This allows some Pokémon without evolutions to actually have a place in the meta, and for pseudos to be less overwhelmingly powerful compared to the rest of the cast (This 25% nerf removes 100 BST from Tyranitar).
Hopefully this helps with decentralising the meta!

 

[Annika]

Here's another idea for a metagame that I had (but I don't have a good name for):
Moves get STAB, regardless of type.
So now you can run moves of any type viably.
I'll post more stuff about it soon when I have time, but in the mean time, any thoughts?

 

[alephgalactus]

Self-Improvement (Taking name suggestions)
Premise: Pokémon inherit the best value from their evolution chain so far for each stat (e.g. Incineroar gains Torracat's Speed, Porygon-Z has Porygon-2's Defenses, Steelix has Onix's Speed, but Litten doesn't gain Torracat's Speed and Lycanroc-Midnight doesn't gain Lycanroc-Midday's Speed).

Finer details (these are subject to change with community feedback):
- Pokémon will only gain from previous evolutions, and not from alternate forms of their current stage e.g. Meteor Minior doesn't inherit stats from Core Minior or vice versas. (Especially considering changing this one for more options)
- Mega Evolutions are counted as evolutions.
- Pokémon won't gain stats from branched evolution paths e.g. Slowbro doesn't gain from Slowking or vice versas.

All even slightly important changes with current rules (lemme know if I missed any of course):
Mega Beedrill: 65/150/40/45/80/145
Poliwrath: 90/95/95/70/90/90
Politoed: 90/75/75/90/100/90
Magnezone: 70/70/115/130/90/70
Steelix: 75/85/200/55/65/70
Mega Steelix: 75/125/230/55/95/70 (nice)
Tangrowth: 100/100/125/110/50/60
Scizor: 70/130/100/55/80/105 (yikes)
Mega Scizor: 70/150/140/65/100/105 (double yikes)
Electivire: 75/123/67/95/85/105
Magmortar: 65/95/67/125/95/93
Porygon-Z: 85/80/90/135/95/90 (OKAY)
Mega Ampharos: 90/95/105/165/110/55
Honchkrow: 100/125/52/105/52/91
Mega Heracross: 80/185/115/40/105/85
Octillery: 75/105/75/105/75/65
Beautifly: 60/70/55/100/50/65
Pelipper: 60/50/100/95/70/85
Ninjask: 61/90/90/50/50/160
Shedinja HP and Defense buffs change nothing
Mega Sableye: 50/85/125/85/115/50
Mega Camerupt: 70/120/100/145/105/40
Armaldo: 75/125/100/70/80/75
Salamence: 95/135/100/110/80/100
Vespiquen: 70/80/102/80/102/70
Mega Garchomp: 108/170/115/120/95/102
Mega Abomasnow: 90/132/105/132/105/60
Leavanny: 75/103/90/70/80/92
Scolipede: 60/100/99/55/79/112
Crustle: 70/105/125/65/75/55
Escavalier: 70/135/105/60/105/60
Accelgor: 80/70/85/100/65/145
Volcarona: 85/85/65/135/105/100
Vivillon: 80/52/60/90/50/89
Mega Diancie: 50/160/150/160/150/110 (hahahahahahahahahahaha)
Incineroar: 95/115/90/80/90/90
Toucannon: 80/120/75/75/75/75
Vikavolt: 77/82/95/145/75/46
Crabominable: 97/132/77/62/67/63
Toxapex: 50/63/152/53/142/45
Mudsdale: 100/125/100/55/85/45
Golisopod: 75/125/140/60/90/80

Ubers changes (probably won't be relevant but these are pretty funny):
Mega Mewtwo Y: 106/150/90/194/120/140 (800 BST finally achieved)
Solgaleo: 137/137/131/113/131/97 (Not entirely outclassed anymore!)
Lunala: 137/113/131/137/131/97 (Bulkier than Lugia with Shadow Shield, 137 Sp.Atk and a 200 BP Z-Move, seems cool)

Threatlist:
Mega Scizor: Can run a variety of sets thanks to the Speed buff and outspeeds the slower meta without any investment.
Porygon-Z: The significant bulk increase improves all of Porygon-Z's sets, but most notably makes Z-Conversion much harder to kill.
Mega Diancie: Now ties for second highest BST (would be highest but Mega Mewtwo Y now has 800 BST), with its main weakness patched up effectively.

Questions:
- What are the winners and losers (if any losers) of this meta?
- Should Pokémon inherit stats from alternate in-battle forms, such as Zen Darmanitan, Pirouette Meloetta and Core Minior? If so, should it work both ways or should only the original / transformed form inherit?
- Should Mega Evolutions count as Evolutions like they currently do, or should they work differently (maybe gain as much as their base form did if applicable)?
- Does anything need banning? (Expecting people to say Mega Diancie)
- General thoughts?

Mega Diancie shouldn’t be banned, at least not right away, and I’ll tell you why.

It still has a debilitating double weakness to Steel, and Mega Scizor is one of the best Pokémon in this meta. Bullet Punch eliminates the Speed issue (protecting from errant HP-Fires), and with full Attack investment it OHKOs all but fully invested Defense/HP Diancie (which would force it to sacrifice Speed/attacking stats, so probably not a common set). Without Lele support, Mega Diancie gets absolutely bodied by Mega Scizor, and even with support, it still faces most of the issues it faced in OU proper—it still falls to several common Scarfers and has trouble switching into... well, anything. We should at least see how Mega Diancie does before banning it instantly—quickbans in general aren’t appealing to me, especially if it’s only a marginal change (remember, Normal Mega Diancie has base 110 defenses).

As for other things: yes, Pokémon (non-Megas excluded, obviously) should have stats from all their forms, both in-battle and out-of-battle, and it should work both ways. This will be a bit more of a substantial change to the meta, which seems a little lacking as it is at the moment. This makes Darmanitan much more viable, gives Minior a chance, makes Kyurem broken, makes Aegislash (for a potential Ubers meta) ridiculous, and makes Deoxys incredibly stupid with a stat spread of 50/180/160/180/160/180 for a base stat total of nine hundred and ten. Even though that’s not relevant to the actual meta, it’s one of the most broken things I’ve ever seen in my life and it’s worth pointing out.

 

[Eve]

Mega Diancie shouldn’t be banned, at least not right away, and I’ll tell you why.

It still has a debilitating double weakness to Steel, and Mega Scizor is one of the best Pokémon in this meta. Bullet Punch eliminates the Speed issue (protecting from errant HP-Fires), and with full Attack investment it OHKOs all but fully invested Defense/HP Diancie (which would force it to sacrifice Speed/attacking stats, so probably not a common set). Without Lele support, Mega Diancie gets absolutely bodied by Mega Scizor, and even with support, it still faces most of the issues it faced in OU proper—it still falls to several common Scarfers and has trouble switching into... well, anything. We should at least see how Mega Diancie does before banning it instantly—quickbans in general aren’t appealing to me, especially if it’s only a marginal change (remember, Normal Mega Diancie has base 110 defenses).

As for other things: yes, Pokémon (non-Megas excluded, obviously) should have stats from all their forms, both in-battle and out-of-battle, and it should work both ways. This will be a bit more of a substantial change to the meta, which seems a little lacking as it is at the moment. This makes Darmanitan much more viable, gives Minior a chance, makes Kyurem broken, makes Aegislash (for a potential Ubers meta) ridiculous, and makes Deoxys incredibly stupid with a stat spread of 50/180/160/180/160/180 for a base stat total of nine hundred and ten. Even though that’s not relevant to the actual meta, it’s one of the most broken things I’ve ever seen in my life and it’s worth pointing out.

Oh, see my later post I've abandoned this idea lol

 

[Plasmaster09]

Two-for-One
Metagame Premise: Each Pokemon can have two items and abilities, at the cost of only two moves. The second ability can come from something else in the Pokemon's evolution line or other forms as opposed to just itself, but not Megas. Mega Evolution only changes the first ability. Note: for Pokemon that Mega Evolve, the first ability can be left blank and the second one used.
Potential Bans and Threats: OU Banlist, Choice items, Wonder Guard, Huge Power, Pure Power, Fur Coat. Clauses: OU Clauses, no two of the same item on one Pokemon, no three Pokemon can have the same item pair, no Z-crystals and Mega Stones on the same Mon (however dual Megas or Crystals are allowed but only once), no Pokemon can have abilities from two different branches of an evolution line without being part of one of those branches (sorry, Eevee) no two of the same ability on a Pokemon, no two Pokemon can have the same pair of abilities. Threats:
Bronzong could see much more use here due to its two abilities conveniently removing both of its weaknesses.
Eeveelutions are much more unpredictable due to having a lot of second-ability choices.
Charizard and Mewtwo are extremely unpredictable due to not only having two choices of Mega but also ability variation.
In general, Mega Evolution is a threat.
Questions for the Community: Is there even a way to make this an actual metagame?

 

[Foxxeyy]

Two-for-One
Metagame Premise: Each Pokemon can have two items and abilities, at the cost of only two moves. The second ability can come from something else in the Pokemon's evolution line or other forms as opposed to just itself, but not Megas. Mega Evolution only changes the first ability. Note: for Pokemon that Mega Evolve, the first ability can be left blank and the second one used.
Potential Bans and Threats: OU Banlist, Choice items, Wonder Guard, Huge Power, Pure Power, Fur Coat. Clauses: OU Clauses, no two of the same item on one Pokemon, no three Pokemon can have the same item pair, no Z-crystals and Mega Stones on the same Mon (however dual Megas or Crystals are allowed but only once), no Pokemon can have abilities from two different branches of an evolution line without being part of one of those branches (sorry, Eevee) no two of the same ability on a Pokemon, no two Pokemon can have the same pair of abilities. Threats:
Bronzong could see much more use here due to its two abilities conveniently removing both of its weaknesses.
Eeveelutions are much more unpredictable due to having a lot of second-ability choices.
Charizard and Mewtwo are extremely unpredictable due to not only having two choices of Mega but also ability variation.
In general, Mega Evolution is a threat.
Questions for the Community: Is there even a way to make this an actual metagame?

Somehow I doubt this would have much appeal, no offense. It’s premise is very complicated, and there are meta’s messing around with slots anyway: fortemons, duel wielding. It’s very complicated, and I think just outclassed. Then again, I’ve done about 100 submissions and none got through so I don't know.

 

[Plasmaster09]

Somehow I doubt this would have much appeal, no offense. It’s premise is very complicated, and there are meta’s messing around with slots anyway: fortemons, duel wielding. It’s very complicated, and I think just outclassed. Then again, I’ve done about 100 submissions and none got through so I don't know.

I guess, although I'll still submit it once I can. And it's not really all that complicated (and if necessary I can remove clauses and leave it to the moderators to decide what should not be allowed) aside from two item and ability slots in exchange for two less move slots.

 

[Plasmaster09]

Move Mix-Up
Metagame Premise: Pretty simple- the type and secondary effect of each of a Pokemon's moves is rotated down to the next move. However, this doesn't change priority or move category, so attacks are still attacks and you can't have a super-powerful ESpeed.
Potential Bans and Threats: OU Banlist, Zap Cannon, Fake Out, any attack that winds up having sleep effects.
Questions for the Community: Any additional bans or clauses you think should be added?

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Two-for-One
Metagame Premise: Each Pokemon can have two items and abilities, at the cost of only two moves. The second ability can come from something else in the Pokemon's evolution line or other forms as opposed to just itself, but not Megas. Mega Evolution only changes the first ability. Note: for Pokemon that Mega Evolve, the first ability can be left blank and the second one used.
Potential Bans and Threats: OU Banlist, Choice items, Wonder Guard, Huge Power, Pure Power, Fur Coat. Clauses: OU Clauses, no two of the same item on one Pokemon, no three Pokemon can have the same item pair, no Z-crystals and Mega Stones on the same Mon (however dual Megas or Crystals are allowed but only once), no Pokemon can have abilities from two different branches of an evolution line without being part of one of those branches (sorry, Eevee) no two of the same ability on a Pokemon, no two Pokemon can have the same pair of abilities. Threats:
Bronzong could see much more use here due to its two abilities conveniently removing both of its weaknesses.
Eeveelutions are much more unpredictable due to having a lot of second-ability choices.
Charizard and Mewtwo are extremely unpredictable due to not only having two choices of Mega but also ability variation.
In general, Mega Evolution is a threat.
Questions for the Community: Is there even a way to make this an actual metagame?

The problem with the meta isn’t with the coding. Yes, it would be possible to code in items and abilities into the movepool options (the same way fortemon put moves into the item slot), but it would take some time and bug fixing to implement I’m sure. The problem I see is that the trade off is both limiting and, like boop said, a bit of a mashup between existing OMs.

Having an extra item and ability (a legal ability, not even an extra pick) for the exchange for one of your 4 moves is just a limiting and annoying mechanic. Theres a reason why metas that add or subtract from the 4 usuable moves don’t get picked. Moves are extremely valuable, and one of the most important traits a mon needs to have is a usuable movepool. Limiting to 3 or 2 moves, more often than not, will not be worth the extra item and/or ability. The best improvement I could say is maybe allow AAA as an extra move; I think thats a better trade off. Otherwise, there arw very few mons that would want to lose a move for this trade off.

Still, if you insist on this original idea, there’s the implication that your meta comes off as a mash up of Pokeabilities and Double Items. Essentially, those OMs experiment with the possibility of a mon having all of their abilities active, and holding two items, respectively. I know that your meta allows for a different look on these ideas, but these metas pull them off in ways that don’t convolute the team builder. Also, these metas are relatively tame, and worth noting that a regular OU team can be pretty successful without purposely playing off the new mechanics. With that and your move restrictions kept in mind, it makes me believe that your meta would also be kinda tame, and players would find less to experiment or play with.

Again, having a second ability, AAA for that matter, at the cost of one of your moves I think is a better idea, but even that has probs.

TL;DR don’t mess with the movepool options, it’s unlikely to be accepted.

 

[Plasmaster09]

The problem with the meta isn’t with the coding. Yes, it would be possible to code in items and abilities into the movepool options (the same way fortemon put moves into the item slot), but it would take some time and bug fixing to implement I’m sure. The problem I see is that the trade off is both limiting and, like boop said, a bit of a mashup between existing OMs.

Having an extra item and ability (a legal ability, not even an extra pick) for the exchange for one of your 4 moves is just a limiting and annoying mechanic. Theres a reason why metas that add or subtract from the 4 usuable moves don’t get picked. Moves are extremely valuable, and one of the most important traits a mon needs to have is a usuable movepool. Limiting to 3 or 2 moves, more often than not, will not be worth the extra item and/or ability. The best improvement I could say is maybe allow AAA as an extra move; I think thats a better trade off. Otherwise, there arw very few mons that would want to lose a move for this trade off.

Still, if you insist on this original idea, there’s the implication that your meta comes off as a mash up of Pokeabilities and Double Items. Essentially, those OMs experiment with the possibility of a mon having all of their abilities active, and holding two items, respectively. I know that your meta allows for a different look on these ideas, but these metas pull them off in ways that don’t convolute the team builder. Also, these metas are relatively tame, and worth noting that a regular OU team can be pretty successful without purposely playing off the new mechanics. With that and your move restrictions kept in mind, it makes me believe that your meta would also be kinda tame, and players would find less to experiment or play with.

Again, having a second ability, AAA for that matter, at the cost of one of your moves I think is a better idea, but even that has probs.

TL;DR don’t mess with the movepool options, it’s unlikely to be accepted.

Yeah, probably gonna abandon this, or at best just do the double ability part if that hasn't been done yet. However, I wonder if Move Mix-Up would work...

 

[Annika]

Here's an insane idea: all moves get Z-Power automatically.
Thoughts, ideas, anything? I'll probably post more ideas here when I get a chance.