Middle Cup Discussion Thread

[CobraJSF]

thanks very much tangramman. now we know that dd pupitar would be a failure :(
On the flip side, scarf base 105's outspeed pretty much everything in the tier.

 

[EvilMario]

Grass Knot is not a pointless move on Blissey. It hits most of its threats for at least neutral damage. And if I am wrong on that, HP Water could be used instead I guess.

I hope you mean Chansey, and not Blissey in OU. Because Grass Knot as Blissey's attacking move in OU is amazing setup bait for everything from Heatran to Gengar to Infernape.

 

[Nix_Hex]

Hello! It appears you guys don't have a Speed Tier list! Well, being bored, having free time and being interested by this tier, I've created one, stealing the format of the NU thread (thanks starcrusher)! If you guys don't need one or already have one, I'll just delete this post or get a mod to.

...

Well, there ya go! I added the basics, then built off of what I gleamed throughout the thread. If anyone has any suggestions as to what to add, remove or correct, please PM or VM me, or just post. I'm also not sure how I should divide everything, so I'll let those who play the most decide who goes into what Speed tier, if there are going to be any at all.

Hope I helped!

Haha, damn, I was gonna do one! Join the social group (my sig) and start a new discussion with that list. That's really helpful!

 

[Bughouse]

I hope you mean Chansey, and not Blissey in OU. Because Grass Knot as Blissey's attacking move in OU is amazing setup bait for everything from Heatran to Gengar to Infernape.

LOL yes I meant Chansey. OU madness has clearly brainwashed me. I was recommending Grass Knot on CHANSEY in Middle Cup to deter Rhydon from attempting to set up. He can come in and swords dance in an attempt to OHKO Chansey, but since he dies in two hits, he can't set up much at all (and can be easily revenged). Rhydon can only get one hit on Chansey, which won't kill (unless Rhydon is Banded... but that is not what is being discussed).

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

I've been reading through this thread, and I haven't seen a lot of Machoke, which I thought I would. I was expecting a scarf set similar to Machop in little cup, but I guess in this metagame he can take advantage of his passable bulk. I know theres a UU machoke set floating around smogon somere.

But to be honest, I haven't seen him discussed anywhere, which is strange considering Chansey and Rhydon seem to everywhere. None of the dragons resist Dynamic Punch either. We all know that Machamp has an epic physical movepool, and Machoke gets most of it (the only real glaring omission is stone edge).

Is dusclops really so common? Is Monferno really giving Machoke that much competition for a slot?

 

[Colonel Darren]

I believe the use of Dusclops as Skarmory's replacement in the SkarmBliss duo, but with Will-o-Wisp to further screw over physical walls and Bliss being downgraded to Chansey, has had an effect on Machoke, especially since No Guard works both ways. Monferno can come in on next to anything save Earthquake from Dusclops and just set up to tear the defensive core apart.

Also, I believe there is a UU Antilead Machoke. The problem in Middle Cup is solely Dusclops, and that Monferno can accomplish a similar task to Machoke without suffering from Dusclops save Earthquake.

 

[CobraJSF]

Yeah, use Monferno, people. He has CC/FB (two!) and can stat up amazingly.

 

[Optimusje]

Like said above, Machoke has great problems with dusclops. Even if you sub on the switch to save yourself from status, payback will barely scratch clops due to him being slower. An option will still be to use guts, and actually profit from the wow, but you'll loose the ability to use D-Punch.

Also, Machoke lead is still incredible, being able to beat pretty much anything when tailored to do so.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

so there are no strong pursuiters in the tier? is monferno THE dusclops/chansey check?

 

[Ice-eyes]

Monferno is a nightmare for stall teams to face. I'm relying on checking it with Earthquake Dusclops and Brave Bird Golbat.

 

[CobraJSF]

Yeah, the best stallbreaking core is rhydon/monferno.

 

[Ice-eyes]

If you use Rhydon + Monferno, you WILL beat stall teams. It's insuring your matchup against everything else that might be a problem.

 

[Meru]

It's kind of pathetic just how much disgustingly better Monferno's stat distribution is compared to Combusken. What was GameFreak thinking...?

 

[CobraJSF]

well, rhydon beats most pokes one on one and monferno is just there for clean up.
And combusken sucks, except in tr. which is semi-viable at best.

 

[Optimusje]

Combusken can also be used as a semi viable scarfer, as it'll outspeed the entire unboosted tier with a scarf and a speed boosting nature. It hits a bit harder then monferno, but thats about it.

 

[BurningMan]

Combusken can also be used as a semi viable scarfer, as it'll outspeed the entire unboosted tier with a scarf and a speed boosting nature. It hits a bit harder then monferno, but thats about it.

combusken doesnt even hit s much harder since he lacks monfernos great stab boosted Close Combat to ohko chansey.

A completly special set with
Fire Blast
Focus Blast
Vaccuum Wave
and hidden power for coverage is propably the only set where he isnt completely outclassed by monferno

 

[Redtype]

Combusken is also one of the two Baton Passers in the tier (the other one being Togetic), but he's both too slow and too frail to make a good use of this move.

 

[CobraJSF]

Baton Passing sucks. And besides, what is combusken going to pass? it's too slow.

 

[ck49]

combusken@petaya/leichi berry
252 speed/252 att or SpA/4def
timid/jolly
agility
substitute
fireblast/fire punch
brick break/focus blast/ vacuum wave

made it up on the spot. I used a similar blaziken set in UU. I suppose it could work, but what needs speed that cant use rock polish? Monferno?

 

[Optimusje]

I didnt say semi viable for nothing, its the only thing i can think of that might work. Maybe agility 3 attacks too. Above set is much too vulnerable to priority to have a chance at working, although it may work when played correctly i suppose.

 

[Blue_Tornado]

bleh, the new year's being a pain seeing as I spend literally no time on this anymore, which is a shame. Once things calm down I'll get to some new teams, interesting ideas such as Expert Belt Gabite and some anti-leads I've been wanting to try should find some love then.

 

[-Terywj-]

combusken@petaya/leichi berry
252 speed/252 att or SpA/4def
timid/jolly
agility
substitute
fireblast/fire punch
brick break/focus blast/ vacuum wave

made it up on the spot. I used a similar blaziken set in UU. I suppose it could work, but what needs speed that cant use rock polish? Monferno?

Agility Porygon2?

 

[TrueLuck]

Interesting tier, i'll definitately try it out.

 

[Accipender]

Is there any threat list like there is for little cup? This seems interesting.

 

[CobraJSF]

Hmmm. I might have to write one up later.