I'd just like to say that if a Rhydon switched in to my Golbat, the first thing I'd do is Taunt, ending Rhydon right there.
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Middle Cup Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Zystral
- Start date
...Why is everyone against me.
If Rhydon doesn't get banned, I will have Salamence get Un-banned. Also, In LC, Meditite will be unbanned. Seriously.
If Rhydon gets taunted, he just batters away with stone edge, Damaging the next pokemon who comes in. Then you just switch out.
Or you just more conveniently, use Trick Room.
If Rhydon doesn't get banned, I will have Salamence get Un-banned. Also, In LC, Meditite will be unbanned. Seriously.
If Rhydon gets taunted, he just batters away with stone edge, Damaging the next pokemon who comes in. Then you just switch out.
Or you just more conveniently, use Trick Room.
I usually don't partake in this discussion thread, since... Well, you know, NFE is superior in every way, but I'll drop in to defend this guy you're all attacking.
Relying on an 80% accuracy move to miss is not a way to claim a Pokemon is or isn't broken. That's like saying my Gyarados can revenge kill DDTar because Stone Edge has a 20% chance to miss.
So you always know what your opponent is going to do now do you? You only KNOW that he would Rock Polish because he said he planned to Rock Polish, forcing Golbat out. But in an actual game, if he KNEW you were going to Taunt, he would Stone Edge. This game is much more dangerous for the Golbat user, since if the Rhydon user mispredicts, they only have their Rhydon unable to set up a RP (and can proceed to hit the switchin with a STAB EQ, STAB SE, or a powerful Megahorn). However, if Golbat mispredicts, you have at least an 80% chance to lose at least one Pokemon.
Lots of common things kill it? Please explain how Monferno does so? If it switches in on anything but Megahorn, it gets OHKOed. In fact, Monferno's own Close Combat can't OHKO Rhydon. Gabite? Not only can it not OHKO Rhydon with an Earthquake (62.1% - 73.5%), but it gets OHKOed by RP Rhydon's own Earthquake (119.5% - 141.2%). Marshtomp? Sure it can switch in on a Rock Polish and take an Earthquake, but if Rhydon uses any other move on the switch, Marshtomp gets KOed. (Stone Edge does 30.5% - 36%, Earthquake does 61.3% - 72.4%, together that's 91.8%-108.4%. And that's assuming no prior damage AT ALL. And remember that this is 252/252 Impish Marshtomp). Oh, and Marshtomp's Waterfall vs 4/0 Rhydon: 75.2% - 88.9%.
The name of the game here is "prediction". If he knew I was going to taunt the RP, then how can you say I don't think he isn't going to Stone Edge, then switch out to marshtomp or whatever. Theres no clear answer here, and to use this argument is null and void.
Jolly LO Monferno Close Combat does (92.8% - 109.4%) to Standard Rhydon. Even without rocks, it still has a high chance to OHKO.
Yes, Monferno can't switch in on Rhydon, but that doesn't mean it can't revenge(I will not pursue this point more though, because that's one of the cruxes on why Sally was banned, and I agreed with that).
After reviewing all of the calcs, I will secede this.
252/252 Relaxed Marshtomp Surf does (148.1% - 174.6%). Why would you be using Waterfall on Marshtomp anyways?
Additionally, Stone Edge only does (28.2% - 33.3%), and EQ does (56.5% - 66.7%). Which, guess what, has to roll max damage on both to kill, assuming Marshtomp doesn't have lefties.
That's with a Jolly nature I assume; with an Adamant nature Rhydon gets the 2HKO with Stone Edge + Earthquake over 50% of the time (and 100% of the time with Megahorn + EQ or EQ + EQ). You only need an Adamant nature to outspeed every non-scarved Pokemon in NFE (I mean "middle cup" lolol) after a Rock Polish anyway, but that's beside the point. All you did was say "Monferno can revenge kill a Rhydon that hasn't used Rock Polish," and "Marshtomp can win almost 50% of the time if it switches in on a resisted move, or otherwise revenge kills". However, that's no argument for it not being overpowering; I could say the same thing about DD Rayquaza. I can revenge kill Rayquaza with CB Weavile. I can switch in Hippowdon on Rayquaza's unboosted Outrage (or Dragon Dance) and KO back with Ice Fang. Does that mean it isn't broken? I don't think so. The only thing that can really check Rhydon is Porygon2, and Porygon2 is broken as hell anyway (really, name a Pokemon that can switch in on any of Rhydon's moves and KO back before it gets KOed itself. Gimmicks don't count).
Umm, no. This is pretty much the MixMence argument all over again, but I'll play it out for you anyways.
Here, Golbat prevents Rhydon from setting up.
Golbat has an 80% chance of dying.
Now Rhydon's gonna outspeed and kill something nearly guaranteed.
Rhydon is gonna get forced out.
Basically, if the Golbat player guesses correctly, Rhydon is forced out. If the Rhydon player guesses correctly, he either kills Golbat or gets up a RP. Either way, its high-risk, low-reward for the Golbat player.
Not to intrude on the discussion, but this occurred to me the other day - do we really need Stone Miss on Rhydon? The only things you're actually hitting with the Rock-type STAB over Earthquake if we're being really honest are Golbat and Haunter due to their immunity to Ground, both of which are OHKOd by Rock Slide, which has a tasty 90% accuracy. You do lose some power against Grotle, but it's hardly common enough for this to be a massive problem.
srsly why are we only discussing rhydon vs Golbat in making a case for rhydon's "brokenness". this is like trying to make an argument for Ape's "brokenness" by saying it will either kill blissey with CC or set up a NP/SD. show some other things that rhydon can set up on so it's a more convincing argument.
IMO pory-2 should be tested for brokenness before rhydon, since pory-2 is just ridiculous as is.
Okay, first off, Monferno is a counter to Rhydon, but really only on revenge kills.
Secondly, I believe Porygon2 can OHKO with Ice Beam at least some of the time with rocks up (too lazy to do calcs right now).
Thirdly, why would someone switch a golbat into a rhydon? just asking.
And finally, Rhydon is not broken, as it does not compare to mence in one key category: speed. After an RP, it's still outsped by pretty much everything carrying a choice scarf; mainly gabite and porygon.
Secondly, I believe Porygon2 can OHKO with Ice Beam at least some of the time with rocks up (too lazy to do calcs right now).
Thirdly, why would someone switch a golbat into a rhydon? just asking.
And finally, Rhydon is not broken, as it does not compare to mence in one key category: speed. After an RP, it's still outsped by pretty much everything carrying a choice scarf; mainly gabite and porygon.
I've taken all the Middle Cup Pokemon and labeled all the visibly NU Pokemon and the two suspect pokemon from reading page 1, 2 and 11 (so fill me in on anything I've missed). I hope to turn this into a full tier list so help me out and let the arguing begin.
Ivysaur (UU)
Charmeleon (UU)
Wartortle (BL)
Metapod (NU)
Kakuna (NU)
Pidgeott (UU/NU)
Pikachu (OU)
Nidorina (UU)
Nidorino (NU/UU)
Clefairy (NU/UU)
Jigglypuff (BL/UU)
Golbat (OU)
Gloom (BL)
Poliwhirl (BL)
Kadabra (OU)
Machoke (BL)
Weepinbell (UU)
Graveler (BL)
Magneton (OU)
Haunter (OU)
Rhydon (Suspect/Uber)
Chansey (OU)
Seadra (OU)
Electabuzz (OU)
Magmar (OU)
Dragonair (BL)
Bayleef (UU)
Quilava (UU)
Croconaw (BL/UU)
Togetic (OU)
Flaaffy (NU)
Marill (NU)
Skiploom (UU/NU)
Piloswine (OU)
Porygon2 (Suspect)
Pupitar (BL/UU)
Grovyle (OU)
Combusken (UU/NU)
Marshtomp (OU/BL)
Silcoon (NU)
Cascoom (NU)
Lombre (UU)
Nuzleaf (BL)
Kirlia (UU/NU)
Vigoroth (OU)
Loudred (UU/NU)
Lairon (BL)
Roselia (OU/BL)
Vibrava (BL/UU)
Dusclops (OU)
Sealeo (OU/BL)
Shelgon (OU)
Metang (OU/BL)
Grotle (BL/UU)
Monferno (OU)
Prinplup (BL/UU)
Staravia (BL)
Luxio (BL/UU)
Gabite (OU)
Charmeleon (UU)
Wartortle (BL)
Metapod (NU)
Kakuna (NU)
Pidgeott (UU/NU)
Pikachu (OU)
Nidorina (UU)
Nidorino (NU/UU)
Clefairy (NU/UU)
Jigglypuff (BL/UU)
Golbat (OU)
Gloom (BL)
Poliwhirl (BL)
Kadabra (OU)
Machoke (BL)
Weepinbell (UU)
Graveler (BL)
Magneton (OU)
Haunter (OU)
Rhydon (Suspect/Uber)
Chansey (OU)
Seadra (OU)
Electabuzz (OU)
Magmar (OU)
Dragonair (BL)
Bayleef (UU)
Quilava (UU)
Croconaw (BL/UU)
Togetic (OU)
Flaaffy (NU)
Marill (NU)
Skiploom (UU/NU)
Piloswine (OU)
Porygon2 (Suspect)
Pupitar (BL/UU)
Grovyle (OU)
Combusken (UU/NU)
Marshtomp (OU/BL)
Silcoon (NU)
Cascoom (NU)
Lombre (UU)
Nuzleaf (BL)
Kirlia (UU/NU)
Vigoroth (OU)
Loudred (UU/NU)
Lairon (BL)
Roselia (OU/BL)
Vibrava (BL/UU)
Dusclops (OU)
Sealeo (OU/BL)
Shelgon (OU)
Metang (OU/BL)
Grotle (BL/UU)
Monferno (OU)
Prinplup (BL/UU)
Staravia (BL)
Luxio (BL/UU)
Gabite (OU)
If Golbat has Giga Drain, it's sole purpose will be to defeat Rhydon. Can't do anything against others, so if you are facing a team with Chansey, or without Rhydon, the Golbat has wasted a moveslot. Same with Marshtomp. Why use Surf, when Waterfall does more damage? If your answer is "to kill Rhydon", again, if the team doesn't have Rhydon you have lost some free power.
Garchomp and Salamence and Latias and Skymin and all sorts are easy to kill. Even without Scarfs. Hi Weavile.
Now, Maybe I should get Magneton and Dusclops of the Suspect list. And I agree with Marill (I didn't know it's Attack Stat was 20...)
However, why put Flaafy as NU without Kirlia there? Flaafy isn't that bad of a trick room sweeper, the only slower ones are (barring the coons, of course) Jigglypuff, Dusclops, Graveler, Grotle, Togetic, Rhydon, Gloom, Marill, and Lairon. The only ones that would actually benefit from the added speed would only be Grotle, Rhydon, and Togetic. Lairon and Dusclops are more defensive, while the others aren't really viable for normal play. It also is the best Electric runner, provided Magneton is banned (which isn't very likely...)
Kirlia, on the other hand, sucks. No offense, Gardevoir and Gallade are one of my favourite pokemon, but Kirlia just sucks. Pitfuller stats. Trick Room may be good, but there are much better options (a bigger gap between Magneton and Flaaffy) like Dusclops.
Just to add here, that with Huge Power Adamant Marill reaches attack 158 (without any boosting items), which for example outnumbers Max Atk Jolly Tauros ;). So I wouldn't say that Marill has small attack, because isn't not true. However I agree that Marill has weak statistics anyway, as this lack of speed and mostly bulk is troublesome.
Maybe it can work as a Choice Bander with Max HP/Max Atk (it can switch into some Water, Fire and Ice attacks) ? I'm not sure if it has access to STAB Aqua Jet like Azumarill... but if it has, we have reliable revenge killer to Rhydon, which is surprising coming from Pokemon like this ;).
EDIT: I checked Marills movepool and fortunately it does have Aqua Jet ;).
Ever heard of the word "check"? Just wondering.
Also a tier list not based of usage shouldn't be named like such. Suspect/Standard/Average/Below Average/Low seems more approppiate.
My list:
SUSPECT
rhydon
porygon2
STANDARD
golbat
pikachu
haunter
chansey
gabite
kadabra
magneton
electabuzz
magmar
metang
dusclops
piloswine
monferno
roselia
marshtomp
AVERAGE
nidorina
ivysaur
machoke
weepinbell
graveler
seadra
dragonair
croconaw
charmeleon
wartortle
togetic
pupitar
grovyle
combusken
staravia
shelgon
grotle
pupitar
vigoroth
BELOW AVERAGE
pidgeotto
nidorino
clefairy
jigglypuff
gloom
poliwhirl
bayleef
quilava
flaaffy
marill
skiploom
lombre
nuzleaf
kirlia
loudred
lairon
vibrava
sealeo
prinplup
luxio
LOW
metapod
kakuna
silcoon
cascoon
BurningMan
fueled by beer
Marshtomp?
it outspeeds and OHKOs with Surf
And Megahorn isnt really viable what you want to hit with that, Kadabra?
Grotle too. And yes, monferno is a check.
On a side note. Why would you use megahorn, ever? What does it hit? Kadabra? Who switches a Kadabra into a Rhydon anyway, b/c it'll either sub or RP, and just wreck Kadabra.
Anyway, I want to give props to Marshtomp for being one of the best bulky waters in MC, that thing is awesome.
Edit: and doesn't waterfall ohko rhydon on tomp?
On a side note. Why would you use megahorn, ever? What does it hit? Kadabra? Who switches a Kadabra into a Rhydon anyway, b/c it'll either sub or RP, and just wreck Kadabra.
Anyway, I want to give props to Marshtomp for being one of the best bulky waters in MC, that thing is awesome.
Edit: and doesn't waterfall ohko rhydon on tomp?
BurningMan
fueled by beer
waterfall has a good chance to ko after rocks and lo recoil so its an decent option too, surf will ko 100% of the time but isnt as good in other situations.
However i really want rhydon (and p2) to be banned since both are two powerfull and got stats far beyond most other mc pokemon.
Edit: nvm forgot completly that rhydon will run speed evs unlike marshtomp so it will outspeed and ko tomp with eq
Well, the max speed rhydon can reach with no boosts (lol choice scarf) is 101. So put enough EVs into speed, 252 atk, then the rest into hp. And then you run EQ and Waterfall, b/c this is MC, and tompy has low SpA.
Anyway, does anyone think Piloswine is viable (outside lead position) like a choice band or lo? Ice and ground have perfect coverage in MC, so what do you guys think? Also, it's neutral to EQ and resists Stone Edge....
Anyway, does anyone think Piloswine is viable (outside lead position) like a choice band or lo? Ice and ground have perfect coverage in MC, so what do you guys think? Also, it's neutral to EQ and resists Stone Edge....
I used Pilo in NFE before and it was really cool. Whilst being weaker then Rhydon's, Pilo's EQ was still really scary, and with Ice Shard on top of that it was a really awesome Pokemon.
And with Rhydon, when SO MANY scarfers can revenge him I really don't see him as a problem. An don't say you shouldn't have to carry a scarfer just to check Rhydon; scarfers are so awesome in Middle Cup anyways that running one really shouldn't be too much of a hassle.
if you read zystral's post on the np golbat, its there to take out many of the checks that stop it from sweeping along with heat wave, and once those are out of the way it can potentially sweep with sludge bomb after steel's and grounds are gone (that wasnt the real point of that quote though, it was just poking fun at the other guy doing all of the case scenarios :P)