Ladder Mix and Mega

[Zephyr Dragon Lord]

Okay... thanks for accepting the vote, first of all. Secondly, I agree completely with removing Diggersby, Zekrom, Mewtwo, Aegislash, Kyruem Black, Giratina, (probably) Darmanitan, Rotom-Wash, Smeargle (who attracts silly replays to boot), and Shaymin. The others, I have at least a little to say about them.

Gourgeist: Ghost/Steel is pretty good, and it comes with recovery, too. Being able to invalidate physical attackers without fire or ground coverage (and even some of them with that coverage, like Zygarde) and some special attackers is definitely worth a ranking. I feel as a B rank is giving it too much credit, though. B- seems like a good place for it.

Togekiss: Actually pretty versatile in terms of possible usable stones, and comes with both Nasty Plot and recovery. Red Orb is simply one of its better sets due to having all the tools to abuse it with. I'm not sure what rank it should end up being. Some discussion regarding this would be welcome.

Roserade: The Red Orb set is good, even having Weather Ball to use it with. But I think a combination of Venasaur and Togekiss outclass what Rosersade can do here (besides Pidgeotite Grasswhistle, which Sceptile does better), so kicking this down to C rank or lower sounds about right.

Slowking: As you said, the problem here's usage. But it's kind of like the whole Slowking in OU deal; it might be worse than Slowbro, but it has the defensive difference to set it apart from Slowbro. Though, to be fair, the main Special Attackers are Gengar and Thundurus... It does serve as a nice Keldeo check, I'll give it that. Replays of this in action would be the best for finding out how good it is...

Porygon-Z: It differentiates itself from Meloetta pretty drastically, as it has Download and Nasty Plot rather than better bulk. I have seen only one Meloetta. I have seen far more of this. This is pretty much a heavy hitter, while Meloetta has a slower and bulkier setup. I have no idea which one is actually better, though.

Goodra: As I used this once, let me speak about my experience with Camperuptite Goodra. It checks Bulky Water types very well. Including Kyogre. But its not taking many Dragon moves, many physical attacks will still sting uninvested, and it falls to Weavile and -ate speed easily. ...It's current rank is probably good. Just update the mega stone list.

Darmanitan: It also has Stone Edge and Earthquake. And Superpower. Do you care about those so much? If so, this might be a good choice. If not... Victini is far, far, superior.

Reuniclus: While that is all true, there is something that the blob has going for it: it's stronger, and really, REALLY, slow. You know what that means? Cameruptite Trick Room. Of course, Trick Room is far from flawless here, but it might be enough for it to not completely be overshadowed by Mew...?

Tomorrow, I'll nominate some of my own things.

EDIT: Lopunnite Lando-T? Yeah, that is not breaking bulky Mew any time soon. (If it's Salmancite, then we have other issues...) Also, did you just call Jellicent crap? You KNOW I'm going to try and prove you wrong, now...

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

Looking for a Pidgeotite user that's a replacement of Gengar? I think this set has been working for me so far, and it's the closest thing to Gengar I think.

Froslass @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sing
- Blizzard
- Thunder
- Substitute/Hex

Stats: 70 / 80 / 75 / 145 / 80 / 130

It doesn't have a sky high Special Attack compared to Gengar but STAB Blizzard hits hard enough. Also Boltbeam coverage is always nice. The only thing Gengar have over this is Fairy resistance, but overall, it's a good replacement if you want a Pidgeotite Gengar but your Gengar is already used for other stone (Gengarite possibly).

Also regarding Blazikenite user, here's the mon I find that has been working well.

Victini @ Blazikenite
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 72 SpA / 184 Spe
Naughty Nature
- V-Create
- Bolt Strike
- Glaciate
- Protect

Stats: 100 / 140 / 110 / 120 / 110 / 120

Basically, after you Protect, you're at +1 Speed. Once you use V-Create, you drop your Speed, but you gain back to +1 at the end of the turn. Blazikenite + V-Create here effectively looks like a Close Combat, but x1.5 times stronger. 184 Speed here is needed to outspeed Adamant max Speed Landorus-T after +1 Speed, and 72 SpA gives Glaciate a 50% chance to 1HKO 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T after a Stealth Rock. If you can keep Rocks away, 100 / 110 Defenses makes it not being able to get 1HKO'd by Aerilate Entei's Extremespeed even after -1 Defense drop. Don't believe me?

252+ Atk Aerilate Entei (145 Atk) Extreme Speed vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Victini (110 Def) : 280-331 (82.1 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This kinda being countered by Pdon, but well, you always need something for that.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Do not unban: 4
Unban: 11 (counting myself)
Abstain: 1

Blazikenite is now unbanned and the second suspect is officially over!

 

[FlameUser64]

Finally, is there anyone here who has an actual argument as to why we shouldn't get rip of BP, or some kind of counterplay? At this point I cant even run it because its actually not fun to win (requires literally 0 skill), and when playing against it can set up on Swords Dance Landorus-T. You get lucky with Crits, have Gengar out, run mold breaker Taunt, run Hoopa, or lose. Thats it, no other options. Grains of Salt if you need more replays I can go out and get some, but I think there has already been sufficient evidence.

I did not build this team to shut down Baton Pass, and I misplayed horribly as did my foe, and my team isn't actually good, but I think this provides proof of concept.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-438466381
I should have known the turn 1 Protect was coming, so I should have Doom Desired turn 1 and immediately U-Turned out to Weavile turn 2. I then should have used Feint right off the bat reading the Protect instead of going for Fake Out, and then used Feint again for the KO. That way the lucky Feint crit wouldn't have been necessary.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

I did not build this team to shut down Baton Pass, and I misplayed horribly as did my foe, and my team isn't actually good, but I think this provides proof of concept.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-438466381
I should have known the turn 1 Protect was coming, so I should have Doom Desired turn 1 and immediately U-Turned out to Weavile turn 2. I then should have used Feint right off the bat reading the Protect instead of going for Fake Out, and then used Feint again for the KO. That way the lucky Feint crit wouldn't have been necessary.

Alright. That's rather far from the optimal baton pass set, but I suppose that fake out, especially when combined with other damage (poison, burn, doom desire) could help. I'm not sure how generally applicable that is, though.

 

[Funbot28]

Ya I really feel that Baton Pass is pretty cancerous for the meta, especially when u can trap certain phazers or haze users with Mega Gengar pretty easily. Either component (BP or Mega Gar) should really be looked into for a suspect at this point.

 

[Highlord]

Well I have been laddering for a while and have not lost to baton pass yet. Dragon tail teched onto Primal groudon basically destroys any baton pass team and you can burn mew with lava plume. If a fairy passes in.... You just switched a fairy into Primal groudon.

Mega Gengar does a decent job trapping and killing mew with shadow ball and forces it to pass a perish song. (I use Tina o)

Also you can make very simple counter measures like eving Lando to live a +1 atespeed.

Mold breaker taunt users also shut mew down. If mew lacks wisp, certain sweepers like ekiller can setup in its face and proceed to kill whatever is the recipient.

Basically what I'm saying is the reason why people lose to bp is they don't take any counter measures to beat it, so of course you are going to lose. It's just a another threat to take into consideration when building. It is not game breaking and has solid counter plays unlike banned things like mega Ray and ate lucario which are also far more centralized and have only niche checks.

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

OK VR update:

Diggersby, Kyurem-B and Smeargle are now unranked.
Victini has moved down to A
Blaziken has had Lopunnite and Aerodactylite added to its list of mega stones

Nominations

Suicune down to A-
Zygarde down to A+
Tyranitar and Togekiss down to B
Greninja down to C
Archeops down to A-
Arceus Ground to B / B+
Gengar to S

Discuss

Not feeling great atm, will do more when I feel better.

 

[thesecondbest]

Add blazikenite as a stone to lando-t and metagross and exca. Also what do people think about gengar to S? Pidgeotite and Gengarite are both amazing sets against a variety of teams. Trapping both skam and bliss with PSong and Thunder is amazing. And pidgeotite is annoying as hell haha

 

[Zephyr Dragon Lord]

Okay, now that Blazikenite is legal, I have a bunch of topics on my mind. Most notably, viability. No Blazikenite mon is going to come even close to the power of Genesect with an -ate stone, but I believe I have found one that truly deserves an S-rank.

Cobalion.
We've all heard about the Pinsirite set and how incredibly powerful it is, but this is enough to sweep teams. Easily.

Cobalion @ Blazikenite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 92 HP / 160 Atk / 132 Def / 124 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sacred Sword
- Stone Edge
- Iron Head

Yes, this spread is a little unorthodox, but it ensures that Cobalion stays in the field for a long time against physical attackers. Sacred Sword is there to keep Cobalion's bulk in tact as it attacks. Simply pit this against a mon that can't really harm Cobalion too much (given that it's a Steel type, that's a ton of mons), and set up a Swords Dance or two. It can even take Extreme Speeds very well. Take a gander at this bulk and power, courtesy of -ate speeders and Blissey:

252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 92 HP / 132 Def Cobalion: 135-159 (39 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Zygarde Earthquake vs. 92 HP / 132 Def Cobalion: 172-204 (49.7 - 58.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Pixilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 92 HP / 132 Def Cobalion: 145-172 (41.9 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Entei Sacred Fire vs. 92 HP / 132 Def Cobalion: 278-330 (80.3 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 160+ Atk Cobalion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def (Altarianite) Entei: 428-504 (115.3 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 160+ Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (Altarianite) Zygarde: 398-470 (94.7 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 160+ Atk Cobalion Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def (Sablenite) Blissey: 594-702 (91.1 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+2 160+ Atk Cobalion Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def (Slowbronite) Blissey: 504-594 (77.3 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 160+ Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def (Slowbronite) Blissey: 668-788 (102.4 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 160+ Atk Cobalion Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 172-204 (51.4 - 61%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That is devastating power. Just about the only counters to this are bulky Ground types...most of which conveniently get wrecked by its Pinisrite set. Except Primal Groudon, who we all know to be a monster that cannot be contained.

With that, a short list of my own nominations:
Tyranitar (Pinsirite) for A-
Cobalion for S
Empoleon (Sceptilite, Latiasite, Blue Orb) for B-

I'll come up with more of those in a more palatable post.

 

[happymaverick]

When will they implement the thing about meloetta-pirouette staying meloetta-pirouette after mega-evolving?

And why does Aegislash still retain Stance Change when it mega-evolves?

 

[FlameUser64]

When will they implement the thing about meloetta-pirouette staying meloetta-pirouette after mega-evolving?

And why does Aegislash still retain Stance Change when it mega-evolves?

Aegislash retains Stance Change when it Mega Evolves due to weird Showdown coding to protect Stance Change from being overwritten coupled with how the metagame was actually coded. (Aegi normally can't have Stance Change removed by Skill Swap, Entrainment, Worry Seed, Simple Beam, etc. and the protection coded for that is also protecting it from being overwritten by Mega Stones in MnM.)

As for the thing with Meloetta/Castform/etc., not sure. I suspect it's something to do with how formes are coded interacting badly with how Mix & Mega is coded. Will probably need to be fixed for Gen 7 in order to prevent things like, for example, Alolan Ninetales turning into a normal Ninetales-based Mega. (Not that Alola Ninetales is likely to be particularly viable in any way but I can dream, right? …Hm, might be an actually good use for Gardevoirite depending on stat spread and movepool.)

Edit: Also speaking of glitches, Illusion doesn't behave correctly in Mix & Mega. In-game (and in the case of real Megas/Primals on Showdown, such as in Balanced Hackmons), if you Mega Evolve or Primal Revert with an Illusion up, the Illusion remains and also becomes impossible to break. In Mix & Mega, the coding for the fake Mega Evolution message is referencing the Pokémon's species instead of its nickname, which would give that away regardless, and the Illusion ends when you Mega Evolve.

 

[urkerab]

Also speaking of glitches, Illusion doesn't behave correctly in Mix & Mega. In-game (and in the case of real Megas/Primals on Showdown, such as in Balanced Hackmons), if you Mega Evolve or Primal Revert with an Illusion up, the Illusion remains and also becomes impossible to break. In Mix & Mega, the coding for the fake Mega Evolution message is referencing the Pokémon's species instead of its nickname, which would give that away regardless, and the Illusion ends when you Mega Evolve.

Then again, I only recently fixed Showdown's code to match in-game for the Balanced Hackmons case. Maybe at some point I'll get around to fixing Mix and Mega too...

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

I've been hearing a lot of people say that BP isn't broken, that it isn't that good in practice, and that I was just theorymonning. In particular, Grains of Salt, and I realized to an extent that they were right- I hadn't used BP enough to "know" that it wasn't preparable for, just enough to know that I wouldn't want to use it. So I made an asinine, useless team, and slapped BP on it to see if it actually worked without skill. I'm currently #5 on ladder even with it, so something is wrong with it as a strategy.

In case you aren't aware, the strategy in question is having a Sablenite Mew with multiple boosting moves and Baton Passing to a sweeper, usually Pinsirite Arcanine or another -ate. The idea is that while -ates are easily handleable at +0 or +1, +2 or +4 is entirely too much. Furthermore, the strategy isn't only -ate. Anything that can live an extreme speed, such as Metagross, works just fine, and should they be banned to avoid this strategy even that wouldn't be necessary. Thus, it is truly Baton Pass that's an issue.

more than sufficient replays

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-442945928
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-433167864
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-433190143
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-433195116
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-433196688
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-433201734
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-432551203
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-43271344
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-433115283
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-442936527
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-443582942
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-443544205
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-443537123
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-443533754
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-442930700
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-442894048
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-442272505

Edit: So that this is complete

Of these, Hoopa-U is the most generally viable, and even it has issues. There isn't that much counterplay, and if you don't run one of these thats GG

 

[Zephyr Dragon Lord]

(And I did beat that Mew next time.... abeit in a sweep from another misplay around a Tyranitar)

I don't know if any of you have noticed this, but there's only one perpetrator of Baton Pass sweeps (usually); Mew. Few of the potential Baton Passers would have taken a prolonged amount of hits from such strong threats...

Baton Pass is a valid strategy. Heck, Baton Pass is a GOOD strategy. I personally have no problems with it. It's a high-risk, high-reward strategy. If you succeed... you usually stomp the opposing team without much issues. If you fail... the Baton Pass mon might not only be a deadweight, but it could help the foe with THEIR sweep. The Mew set being used is not perfect, either. Mold Breaker Taunt forces a struggle. Mold Breaker Roar forces it out. And, most importantly... it can only boost one defensive stat. If they guess correctly with your boosting stat... they usually have a strong threat exiting the encounter. If they guess wrong... the above happens.

I know the -ate mons are not an issue. Any decently powerful mon with boosts can sweep a team. But I don't think this is broken, given that there are non-niche countermeasures that you can use to counterattack Baton Pass with. Sadly, they are quite rare.... outside of Mold Breaker Taunt.

(Also, you're not giving your team enough credit Quantum. That's a good team right there... It covers a ton of bases.)

And next time... I'll analyze some more niche mons. Including Jellicent.

Edit: Thanks for acknowledging the counterplay measures. You only really need one of Dragon Tail/Taunt/Roar to deal with the boosts. Which still leaves three moveslots for other threats.... hardly making the team slot a waste. There are other Sablenite setup sweepers, as well... such as Suicune and Blissey. (eh..) And sometimes you just want unblockable rocks and phasing on the same mon. Which, again, is viable... Nasty Plot Hoopa-U might just break BP Mew regardless. Of course, you have to KNOW it's BP Mew.... (I can consider this post complete now, as well)

Edit 2: PANGORO. I KNEW I forgot something. Parting Shot switches Mew out when bounced.... and that hardly matters if you have a good -ate check. We should talk about Pangoro again.

 

[jamashawalker]

I don't know if any of you have noticed this, but there's only one perpetrator of Baton Pass sweeps (usually); Mew. Few of the potential Baton Passers would have taken a prolonged amount of hits from such strong threats...

I agree with this! Going through the viability list the only other pokemon who learn baton pass and are relevant are Scizor and Togekiss. The latter can baton pass Nasty plot boost but the former makes a pretty good baton passer with Iron Defense+ Sword Dance. Either way, Mew is the superior baton passer thanks to being unpredictable with which boost it can use.

Baton Pass is a valid strategy. Heck, Baton Pass is a GOOD strategy. I personally have no problems with it. It's a high-risk, high-reward strategy. If you succeed... you usually stomp the opposing team without much issues. If you fail... the Baton Pass mon might not only be a deadweight, but it could help the foe with THEIR sweep. The Mew set being used is not perfect, either. Mold Breaker Taunt forces a struggle. Mold Breaker Roar forces it out. And, most importantly... it can only boost one defensive stat. If they guess correctly with your boosting stat... they usually have a strong threat exiting the encounter. If they guess wrong... the above happens.

I know the -ate mons are not an issue. Any decently powerful mon with boosts can sweep a team. But I don't think this is broken, given that there are non-niche countermeasures that you can use to counterattack Baton Pass with. Sadly, they are quite rare.... outside of Mold Breaker Taunt.

I disagree about Taunt Mold breakers. Only Two pokemon are going to use taunt mold breaker and that's Deoxys-S and rarely Mew itself. Deoxys-S will mostly be a suicide lead so it hardly becomes an issue unless you are trying to set up on it which is just bad play in general.

Mold Breaker+ roar... Who out there is using that?!

High Risk high reward strategy, Absolutely!! But one thing I've noticed when using it, playing against it, and watching quantumms replays is that mew doesn't risk much thanks to softboiled and Sablenite. With those two factors considered, Mew reduces the High risk to a low risk being able to pass multiple times. Mew is not perfect at the moment but here are some huge factors I've noticed with the metagame that allows Mew to shine as a Baton Passer

• Lack of weaknesses. Knock off isn't used in this metagame except as coverage it is not threatening Mew anytime soon. You are looking at Gengar, Hoopa-U, and to an extent Weavile. (252 (160) Atk Weavile Night Slash vs. 252 HP / (150 Def)0 Def Mew: 188-224 (46.5 - 55.4%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO) They are Mew's only real threat that force it out if Mew has taken prior damage. Other than that nothing else threatening comes close. Fact: Bug type moves are borderline non-existent in this metagame. Looking at only Scizor and Volcorona are the only two, but they aren't as threatening as Gengar and Hoopa.
• Lack of Dragon Tail. P-Groudon do carry them and it is not a far stretch for Groudon to not carry it. I can see this being a change in the metagame if Mew Baton Pass becomes more popular.
• Sablenite reduces speed which is more significant than it seems. Mew gains 100/150/150 defenses. So it is not getting 2HKO by just any attack. Once faced against a powerful attacker, it can take the hit and Baton Pass allowing the Receiver a safe switch in.
  
• If it wanted to it can forgo Softboiled and just have both Amnesia and Iron Defense. If you wanted to go the more "adaptable" route one can always add both so that your reciever can be better customized to beat the opponent's team. Of course this leaves you as a one shot pony

Wish I had the replay, when I played quantumm's team I would say I got lucky because I had two intimidaters and forced his Arcanine to kill himself with multiple flareblitz. But my back was against the ropes the entire time. I had to sacrifice multiple pokemon just to prevent myself from being swept.

At the moment I can't say whether or not Baton Pass is broken. It has defenitely sucker punched it's way into the metagame and I do believe we have ways of handling it. Maybe down the road it does become a problem and mew begins to adapt right back.

 

[FlameUser64]

jamashawalker: Don't use Night Slash Weavile. Use Punishment instead. Hits harder if Mew boosts even once, especially since the boosting moves Mew uses all give +2 (which is a +40 increase in Punishment's base power).

Parting Shot is a common way of dealing with Magic Bouncers in BH, but the only Pokémon that has access to it in MnM is Pangoro who's… not all that great. Still, Banettite Pangoro can be a half-decent way of making Mew GTFO even if it lets the foe choose what they replace it with. And if they see Pangoro and switch their Mew out anyway, you just click Parting Shot regardless and it's free momentum. It can also help other team members switch in by reducing the foe's offensive capability. Aside from bad stats, Pangoro's big issue is its allergy to both common forms of -atespeed.

Edit: Also not necessarily relevant but reliable crits exist in the form of Frost Breath and Storm Throw. Not that anything particularly relevant gets access to them.

 

[jamashawalker]

jamashawalker: Don't use Night Slash Weavile. Use Punishment instead. Hits harder if Mew boosts even once, especially since the boosting moves Mew uses all give +2 (which is a +40 increase in Punishment's base power).

Parting Shot is a common way of dealing with Magic Bouncers in BH, but the only Pokémon that has access to it in MnM is Pangoro who's… not all that great. Still, Banettite Pangoro can be a half-decent way of making Mew GTFO even if it lets the foe choose what they replace it with. And if they see Pangoro and switch their Mew out anyway, you just click Parting Shot regardless and it's free momentum. It can also help other team members switch in by reducing the foe's offensive capability. Aside from bad stats, Pangoro's big issue is its allergy to both common forms of -atespeed.

Punishment!!! Another great move that this metagame can use to adapt to the mew. And there is no major loss but a slight decrease in power for weavile.

No comment on pangoro. Ate-Espeed

 

[heybbygal]

Personally I haven't had many problems with Baton Pass by now, and trust me I've faced some. The time Mew sets up on you you could switch into another Pokemon (let's say SD Coba), boost it up to +4 and nuke the Baton Pass receiver.
Also, Scarf Ditto is still reliable and almost nobody thinks about running Substitute. Plus Ditto fits on any team.

 

[SamTheManWhoAllesCan]

I'm just gonna leave this thing here.

Crobat @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Cross Poison
- U-turn
- Taunt/defog/roost

252 Atk Tough Claws Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 141-166 (34.9 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO !!!
252 Atk Tough Claws Crobat Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 205-243 (53.6 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO !!!!!!!
252 Atk Tough Claws Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey (with slowbronite): 201-237 (28.1 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO !!!

252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 98-116 (31.5 - 37.2%) -- 84% chance to 3HKO !!!
0 SpA Primal Groudon Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Crobat in Harsh Sunshine: 184-217 (59.1 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO !!!

And just for fun:
252 Atk Tough Claws Crobat U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 1160-1368 (385.3 - 454.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Lets talk about suspect tests

So suspect tests that ban something hurt play counts, that's just the truth. It's annoying to build a good team and then have it be ineligible all of the sudden plus people like the freedom to do whatever the hell they want, just look at capitalism and Anything goes. So when you ban something the amount of plays will drop by some amount of, we don't know the exact amount because we don't know the day by day statistics. And vise versa, when you unban something the shiny new toy effect sets in and by word of month soon everyone knows that something new is on the market and they want to try it for themselves. themselves

I'm acknowledging that Baton pass is broken, I don't think it's healthy for the metagame and mew is far, far too good at passing stats multiple times throughout the game, users like Quantum Tesseract have proven that. But how do we deal with it? Baton pass has a clause designated to it simply to because it has legitimate users as a means to escape Pursuit and pivot, which is why it wasn't simply banned. But over and over again it has shown it's true colour as a strategy that isn't uncompetitive, but broken. The user isn't always the culprit but certain pokemon aren't mean to get passed stats, sure Arcanine isn't better than Entei in general - but I'd rather have a +2 Arcanine than a +2 Entei... And too be honest, I don't want to fuck around anymore and I don't care. You can look through the list of pokemon that don't get another momentum move other than Baton pass, the only mon that really wants to run it is Sylveon - and Sylveon isn't viable in Mix and Mega. So lets cut the crap, Baton pass it the culprit here - I don't see another way.

And you know what else is pretty bad right now? Gengarite. I mean, a lot of what needs to be said has already been said. Mega Gengar is very effective at invalidating stall and balanced cores in Ubers by itself. Shadow tag lets it trap almost anything because of its huge movepool and great stats. In Mix and Mega, it's a little different. First of all, Shed Shell isn't viable - I can't think of any pokemon that would be better of with Shed Shell over something else - even if it allows you to get past Gengarite. Balanced and Stall is also more common in Mix and Mega, with far more threatening and diverse stall mon being utilised, Gengarite invalidates that. Gengarite is a problem, lets face it.

When leading a metagame you need to be vary of all your decisions, a lot of times you have to decide between wanting to suspect something, wanting to quick-ban something or simply telling the community to suck it up and prepare. But this isn't one of those times.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Suspect: 3.3 Suffer

Gengarite and Baton pass are being Suspected in Mix and Mega

My previous post illustrated why these pokemon are currently being Suspect Tested, to put it simply they're both heavily skew the game in favour of mindless offensive teams that use Mew to Baton pass Boosts to pokemon so they can simply overpower their usual checks while Mega Gengar picks apart balance teams. Together they heavily restrict team-building in Mix and Mega, that's why they're being suspected. To get a more indepth view into these pokemon, feel free to look in this thread and you'll find plenty of excellent arguments for the suspect of both of them.

So we've all gotten used to Suspect testes by now, and this one isn't any different. The suspect will last for five days, until the 30th of September, however Gengarite and BP will not be banned during the suspect. Two reasons for this, a) there's 5 days left of September and I don't feel like destabalizing the metagame b) People need to use this if they haven't, since they lean on uncompetitive and not broken they aren't spammed so if you haven't tried it yet, you really should.

When you've reached reqs vote either DNB or BAN. Here are the reqs for the third and finale suspect of Mix and Mega. For a change to be made, there has to be a 60% majority.

1. Your name needs to contain BPG, which stands for Baton Pass Gengarite. For example: BPG Grains of Salt
2. You must have a GXE of 78 or higher
3. You must have played atleast 18 battles on your new alt
4. You must explain your decision with atleast 6 lines for both Baton pass and Gengarite respectively

Let this final suspect test of Mix and Mega ORAS/XY illustrate the Baton being passed to Sun and Moon, we will return!
​

 

[Spandan]

Suspect: 3.3 Suffer

Gengarite and Baton pass are being Suspected in Mix and Mega

My previous post illustrated why these pokemon are currently being Suspect Tested, to put it simply they're both heavily skew the game in favour of mindless offensive teams that use Mew to Baton pass Boosts to pokemon so they can simply overpower their usual checks while Mega Gengar picks apart balance teams. Together they heavily restrict team-building in Mix and Mega, that's why they're being suspected. To get a more indepth view into these pokemon, feel free to look in this thread and you'll find plenty of excellent arguments for the suspect of both of them.

So we've all gotten used to Suspect testes by now, and this one isn't any different. The suspect will last for five days, until the 30th of September, however Gengarite and BP will not be banned during the suspect. Two reasons for this, a) there's 5 days left of September and I don't feel like destabalizing the metagame b) People need to use this if they haven't, since they lean on uncompetitive and not broken they aren't spammed so if you haven't tried it yet, you really should.

When you've reached reqs vote either DNB or BAN. Here are the reqs for the third and finale suspect of Mix and Mega.

1. Your name needs to contain BPG, which stands for Baton Pass Gengarite. For example: BPG Grains of Salt
2. You must have a GXE of 78 or higher
3. You must have played atleast 18 battles on your new alt
4. You must explain your decision with atleast 6 lines for both Baton pass and Gengarite respectively

View attachment 70323


Let this final suspect test of Mix and Mega ORAS/XY illustrate the Baton being passed to Sun and Moon, we will return!
​

Maybe reduce the time of the suspect test to something like.... 3 days? Because on September 30, if these both (or one of them) get banned, they would have no impact on the ladder, because the next OMotM ladder is implemented the next day, or on Gandhi's B'Day october 2. Or, just dissallow the use of these two during the suspect tests.
And anyways these get unbanned after S/M release...
Post #100 ayyy

 

[Schpoonman]

Vitimtim, you're missing the point. Gengar rarely outright KOs the Pokemon it traps. It uses Perish Song, Protect, and Substitute to guarantee it stays alive long enough to successfully drag out PS to its last turn where it can then freely switch into any member of its team while the victim is prevented from switching on the turn it goes down to Perish Song. Moreover, Pidgeotite is handily beaten by a ton of Magic Bouncers and Sub, whereas Perish Song is unblockable except by Soundproof (completely unviable). Mega Gengar is so good at this that I think it was at least suspected in Ubers, a tier that has far few defensive and passive Pokemon, like GoS described, so Mega Gengar is even more powerful here.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Votes: Ban Baton Pass, Do Not Ban Mega Gengar
I've already explained baton pass (extensively), so I think the point is made. I'll link it anyway, though.

bp

I've been hearing a lot of people say that BP isn't broken, that it isn't that good in practice, and that I was just theorymonning. In particular, Grains of Salt, and I realized to an extent that they were right- I hadn't used BP enough to "know" that it wasn't preparable for, just enough to know that I wouldn't want to use it. So I made an asinine, useless team, and slapped BP on it to see if it actually worked without skill. I'm currently #5 on ladder even with it, so something is wrong with it as a strategy.

In case you aren't aware, the strategy in question is having a Sablenite Mew with multiple boosting moves and Baton Passing to a sweeper, usually Pinsirite Arcanine or another -ate. The idea is that while -ates are easily handleable at +0 or +1, +2 or +4 is entirely too much. Furthermore, the strategy isn't only -ate. Anything that can live an extreme speed, such as Metagross, works just fine, and should they be banned to avoid this strategy even that wouldn't be necessary. Thus, it is truly Baton Pass that's an issue.

more than sufficient replays

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-442945928
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-433167864
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-433190143
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-433195116
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-433196688
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-433201734
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-432551203
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-43271344
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-433115283
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-442936527
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-443582942
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-443544205
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-443537123
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-443533754
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-442930700
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-442894048
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-442272505

Edit: So that this is complete

Of these, Hoopa-U is the most generally viable, and even it has issues. There isn't that much counterplay, and if you don't run one of these thats GG

Mew to A+: Disagree
Mew's Baton Pass set is insanely stupid, and that's just one set. It has a ton more, and its sets are only limited by the metagame and your creativity. There are very few holes in teams that it can't at least partially patch, its insanely splashable, and completely unpredictable.

Similarly, I'd like to get Baton Pass Mew looked at. While Gengar beats stall by Koing walls, Mew just keeps them from doing their jobs. Between Sablenite bulk, defense boosting moves, and the switches its set causes, it usually has no difficulty getting to +4 or +6- and then passing to a sweeper like Arcanine. Even offense, which carries -ate of its own, has difficulty revenging that, and for stall the lack of unaware makes it nigh impossible. You cant use Roar/Whirlwind because of Magic Bounce, and if they suspect Dragon Tail they can just pass to the pixispeeder early. Get this shit out.

Additionally, I know it doesn't seem broken, But can we please talk about baton pass? Its really ridiculous, even without speed being passed. Mew is the main culprit here- With Sablenite, it can easily pass a swords dance and a few defensive boosts to an atespeeder, and then Its basically GG. It's gotten to the point that I'm running Gyarados with Salamencite just to barely live a hit and bring it into ko range- of my atespeed.
Its beatable, but it really induces an undesirable element into play because every mon must at least 2hko mew or its gg.

The problem I'm having with formulating my argument here is that Mew itself doesn't sweep teams. At most, it stalls for a few turns, is generally annoying, and makes you keep hitting until you crit. The issue is in baton pass.
Atespeed, by itself, is not broken. Dragonite was because it could easily set up with Multiscale and sweep teams, as well as several viable non atespeed sets. Lucario had Swords Dance and a powerful 110 attack, the former of which set it above Entei and the latter above Zygarde. Further, it had a great second stab to let it beat holes into Skarmory and other steels. At +4, however, all are nearly unbeatable. Even Skarmory cant switch in- It dies to two +4 stone edges. You can't revenge, because they have +2 priority. Once it happens, your done. Period.
You cant bring in a phazer, because all die to the attacker and mew can't be phased. You cant switch out to an super effective attacker, because mew has other sets and can sleep it/ko it/be a general nuisance. You cant sleep it, because its Sablenite. There are no good physical dark moves/attackers bar Tyranitar and Hoopa-U, and no good physical ghost. There is one good Ghost special attacker, and 1 good dark (Gengar and Hoopa-U). You cant underspeed and punish the switch because its base 70, uninvested, and boosted to hell.
Whats more, however, is that mew can sometimes do this twice or even 3 times in a game. The only reliable checks I have found are making sure all mons can 2hko it (even Keldeo can't if it boosts with amnesia, to give an example), and Intimidate+Salamencite Gyarados to live a boosted hit and hopefully deal enough damage to put it in KO range.

For stall, the story is worse. They can't 2hko, have general difficulties with MBounce already, and can't revenge. While they can potentially shuffle it with dragon tail, that's hardly safe, especially if it passes to an Altarianite mon.

It isn't just atespeed, though. Any fast attacker works, or frail but strong mons, or bulky but weak, or mons lacking boosting, or anything.

TL;DR- Mew with BP is obnoxious and broken

As far as mega Gengar goes, though, I'm not as sure I see it. While I argued for a suspect, that was more because I felt it should be looked at than that I felt it should be banned. While its somewhat uncompetative, you can play or teambuild around it with moderate difficulty and it can be neutralized (Pursuit, pivoting, offensive pressure, Shadow Ball on Blissey, etc.). It's been underwhelming, and thus far my best success with it is trapping opposing Entei to remove -ate, which is questionably broken at best. If you are super weak to it, you can run any of Skuntank/Weavile/Deo-A/Gyardosite Deo-S (actually legit)/Tyranitar/Scizor/insert Pursuiter to reverse it's role completely, making it a 5-5 in your favor rather than theirs. It's unquestionably a threat, but its not at the level where I think it should be forced to go.