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More Thoughts on Stealth Rock
- Thread starter MythTrainerInfinity
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Stealth rock is obviously a huge factor in the game, but it is the player's responsibility to decide whether he would like to set them up or not. A lot of players (like me) rely on stealth rock as a faster way to beat Scizor or a sasher. Obviously stealth rock is the most lethal move in the game, and it works against me sometimes as well. I hate it when I switch in my Salamence and I take 25% from stealth rock, but that's just part of the fun of the game.
Sorry if what I said was a little vauge, I was saying how Stealth Rocks negative sides, like flying types taking 25% on the switch in is actually a god send since they are some of the more powerful sweepers in the game. Garchomp Stealth Rock resistance made it so he could switch back in over and over always posing a threat as soon as he did, the same thing will happen to Salamence and Gyarados without Stealth Rocks in play. I will quit pokemon if we banned Stealth Rocks, then someone said Gyarados and Salamence are broken,
This is totally pointless:
The whole point of it is that you could sub Platinum with SR and then people would call it valid. What's the difference? Both are (1) untrue and (2) invalid, both share an ulterior motive ("I like it better the other way"), and both are dumb.
The difference is that you compare one gamebreaking move with countless little changes, a.k.a. totally no comparison.
It would just be a test anyway so it is a win-win situation. If we get a more interesting metagame GREAT. If it is not too different at all than this discussion stops and we learn more also GREAT.
The whole point of it is that you could sub Platinum with SR and then people would call it valid. What's the difference? Both are (1) untrue and (2) invalid, both share an ulterior motive ("I like it better the other way"), and both are dumb.
The difference is that you compare one gamebreaking move with countless little changes, a.k.a. totally no comparison.
It would just be a test anyway so it is a win-win situation. If we get a more interesting metagame GREAT. If it is not too different at all than this discussion stops and we learn more also GREAT.
Notice that it was a satire? I continued it a bit to make a point, but that whole comparison was a satire to show how ridiculous such claims are.
It's not a win-win situation when you look at the bigger picture. We have plenty of other things we have on the agenda to test, and possibly retests. To test SR would be time we aren't testing those. For something to be a suspect there has to be reasonable evidence that it's broken, which nothing in this thread makes SR appear to be. To put something up for potential banning, particularly in as ban-happy of a community as Smogon can be (see Skymin), there needs to be good reason besides "it would be interesting" and "I don't like playing with SR" to do so.
How is the move so "gamebreaking"? If it was gamebreaking I would assume it's impossible to win without it, which it isn't. We've been playing with SR since D/P released, and last I checked we have a totally playable metagame. You can't just say it's gamebreaking and expect us to go with it. We needs reasons WHY. Convince us.
It possible to win without Garchomp, Deoxys-S, and Skymin but still SR makes your choices of your team limited.
That's what you keep saying, but you seem to be alone in that. I've never taken SR into account when building a team, except on the off hand chance that I happen to have multiple SR weak Pokemon (which is rare- most Fire/Ice/Bug/Flying Pokemon just happen to suck terribly). It's not hard to fit Stealth Rock into your team, given the bajillion Pokemon that learn it, as well as the general utility of that Pokemon.
Meanwhile... people have overlooked one big thing about Stealth Rock. You are permanently sacrificing coverage on one of your Pokemon simply to lay down an entry hazard. For Pokemon like Skarmory or Shuckle that really have nothing better to do than lay down SR, it's easy. However, for a Pokemon like Hippowdon that needs its four moveslots, you pass up something important. The standard Hippowdon has four slots to use five main attacks: EQ, Ice Fang, Roar, Slack Off, and Stealth Rock. In order to use Stealth Rock, you either need to give up STAB, coverage on Flying Pokemon, the ability to PHaze, or the ability to heal. This can be a big problem for a lot of teams- Stealth Rock would have to go somewhere, and simply the act of putting it in can open you up to new threats.
Meanwhile... people have overlooked one big thing about Stealth Rock. You are permanently sacrificing coverage on one of your Pokemon simply to lay down an entry hazard. For Pokemon like Skarmory or Shuckle that really have nothing better to do than lay down SR, it's easy. However, for a Pokemon like Hippowdon that needs its four moveslots, you pass up something important. The standard Hippowdon has four slots to use five main attacks: EQ, Ice Fang, Roar, Slack Off, and Stealth Rock. In order to use Stealth Rock, you either need to give up STAB, coverage on Flying Pokemon, the ability to PHaze, or the ability to heal. This can be a big problem for a lot of teams- Stealth Rock would have to go somewhere, and simply the act of putting it in can open you up to new threats.
Yea Stealth Rock is very annoying i have an awesome team and then it has no SR so im always thinking "aww crap what do i change" to myself =\. So my amazing team has gone the gutter and must give my sr to a scarf heatran or something offensive lol. Stealth Rock is relied on many people these days and i would love to test a metagame without stealth rocks.
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if the team is so awesome, then you don't need it. I personally don't use it, because all my Pokes are better off doing other stuff.
I don't get why people have to put bans on certain Pokemon, moves, etc. I understand banning the legendaries, but what is the point of banning stealth rock? It adds a kind of hesitation to send out flying types and other types. Does this break your team? Well, that must mean that you need to think more about how to get past stealth rock. Use Rapid Spin. Find a powerful lead. You don't need to use a ban to get your way. If you can't win because of stealth rock, why not use it to your advantage? You never know, your opponent might have more flying pokemon than you. I'm sick of Double Team bans, Spore bans, just learn how to get past them or use them yourself. If we add too many bans, soon enough we will be as limited as in the RBY days.
Have you looked at the Rapid Spin move page, and spot how many Pokemon learn it? Leave that, how many of those are viable Rapid Spinners in OU? Less than 10, and look at how many Pokemon learn Stealth Rock, then you tell me who has "the advantage" and why we shouldn't test an SR-less metagame.
PErsonally, I have no problem with testing Stealth Rock, but from what i can surmise, there will be no major difference between the two metagames to be able to truly say that one is better than the other. All that has happened in this thread is that people have been repeating the same arguments in circles and it is obvious neither side is going to convince the other.
SR isn't just an important tool for keeping Flying types at bay, it's so important for some sweepers it's crazy.
The number of analysis pages that say "X can OHKO Y with these EVs and Stealth Rock up" isn't even funny.
For those reasons, the fact that there's more important stuff to test (I want Manaphy OU :)) and that there seems to be no reasons against SR besides "I don't like it", I see no reason to test a metagame without SR.
The number of analysis pages that say "X can OHKO Y with these EVs and Stealth Rock up" isn't even funny.
For those reasons, the fact that there's more important stuff to test (I want Manaphy OU :)) and that there seems to be no reasons against SR besides "I don't like it", I see no reason to test a metagame without SR.
So far everything that has been tested for a new tier has ended up in the new tier. Saying "we just want to test stealth rock" isn't particularly true, because anyone who says that knows that after testing, regardless of result, it'll be put to a vote and those asking to test it will vote to ban it. It's an assumption, but it's virtually true (it's possible someone will change their mind, but it is doubtful). Spikes and Toxic spikes are just as easily used, but as pointed out by several people already are harder to use well. Any move can just be spammed with potentially good results. You can lead with a Heatran and keep using Fire Blast, hell sometimes you'll get a burn and win because of it. That doesn't make it a good tactic, but it was sure easy to use. Perhaps that's a stretch, but saying it takes no strategy to use sounds more like people complaining when they lose to "less skilled" players.
At least I haven't noticed many arguments lately because they want X pokemon to be OU. I've already gone over that in great length.
At least I haven't noticed many arguments lately because they want X pokemon to be OU. I've already gone over that in great length.
When did that happen? You can actually stop Dragon moves, there is Steel-types, and a lot of them too, if you're going to bring up the "there is a limited ammount of Steel-types" arguement, I would suggest taking it to a PM, not here, lets not shit this thread up this thread more.
Stealth Rock is not broken. If it truly were, everyone would be running Rapid Spinners. And obviously that is not the case (how many people actually bother to spin their rocks?)
This basically shows that SR is an influence is a metagame, it is not broken. Unlike Garchomp, which forced players to run multiple counters, SR doesn't require you to have rapid spin.
All SR does is slightly limit what you can choose. But if there really was a pokemon that was good enough to use, you would run Rapid Spin just to use it. But none of them are that good anyway. Meanwhile, powerful pokemon like Salamence, Zapdos, and Gyarados are still used despite the fact that they are weak to SR. Why? Simply because they kick enough ass to warrant their use. Most people wouldn't run pokemon like Articuno, Charizard, or even Moltres anyway, mainly because...they really aren't that good. Hell, people use Yanmega not as a lead and with no spinner because he can be such a good late game sweeper.
This basically shows that SR is an influence is a metagame, it is not broken. Unlike Garchomp, which forced players to run multiple counters, SR doesn't require you to have rapid spin.
All SR does is slightly limit what you can choose. But if there really was a pokemon that was good enough to use, you would run Rapid Spin just to use it. But none of them are that good anyway. Meanwhile, powerful pokemon like Salamence, Zapdos, and Gyarados are still used despite the fact that they are weak to SR. Why? Simply because they kick enough ass to warrant their use. Most people wouldn't run pokemon like Articuno, Charizard, or even Moltres anyway, mainly because...they really aren't that good. Hell, people use Yanmega not as a lead and with no spinner because he can be such a good late game sweeper.
being able to stop Stealth Rock is irrelevant because both players can use it. That being the case, what we have to worry about is the game's strategy centralizing around Stealth Rock entirely, which it hasn't done.
I object to the disparaging comments about Articuno and Charizard.
Articuno halts CMCune, Celebi and most bulky waters without much difficulty, eating up PP with Pressure+Roost, Protect etc. It can also support the team with Roar and Heal Bell. It is excellent at taking special hits, and unlike Regice and Blissey, it can PHaze. 95 SAtk STAB IB will not be appreciated by most Grassers either. Don't get me wrong, Articuno will not be some new revolutionary force, but it can carve its own niche in the metagame if it's given an SRless environment.
Bellyzard is Bellyzard. While it may have been nerfed by the advent of Choice Scarf and new priority moves, it is still Bellyzard. Given the slightest window of opportunity it will wreak havoc. SR taking 50% of its health limits the number of chances you get to pull it off though.
Stealth Rock is annoying, yes. But it keeps Mence and Gyarados in check (somewhat?), stopping them from running amok. I can't really say whether it is broken or not, and I am in favour of testing it, simply because otherwise we have no idea what an SRless metagame is like, and therefore cannot compare it to a metagame with SR. Testing it is is probably the best way to gather this information.
Articuno halts CMCune, Celebi and most bulky waters without much difficulty, eating up PP with Pressure+Roost, Protect etc. It can also support the team with Roar and Heal Bell. It is excellent at taking special hits, and unlike Regice and Blissey, it can PHaze. 95 SAtk STAB IB will not be appreciated by most Grassers either. Don't get me wrong, Articuno will not be some new revolutionary force, but it can carve its own niche in the metagame if it's given an SRless environment.
Bellyzard is Bellyzard. While it may have been nerfed by the advent of Choice Scarf and new priority moves, it is still Bellyzard. Given the slightest window of opportunity it will wreak havoc. SR taking 50% of its health limits the number of chances you get to pull it off though.
Stealth Rock is annoying, yes. But it keeps Mence and Gyarados in check (somewhat?), stopping them from running amok. I can't really say whether it is broken or not, and I am in favour of testing it, simply because otherwise we have no idea what an SRless metagame is like, and therefore cannot compare it to a metagame with SR. Testing it is is probably the best way to gather this information.
I would say that leads are almost exclusively centralized around Stealth Rock, which is 1/6th of our team. I'm pretty sure most people would agree...
That being said, I have even more of a problem with the following things.
Stealth Rock is a move that you used once that can easily do 100-150% damage in a game (or more if it's a long game).
The best move in the game is switching. That's the beauty of Pokemon. Stealth Rock makes that a lot less true. Pokemon is losing it's roots. The game is becoming hyper offensive partially because defensive teams can't afford to switch in and out countless times with SR on the field.
Not being able to use certain Pokemon (Especially Articuno and Moltres) bothers me a little, but not a lot. It would be a bonus from banning SR but not so much of an incentive really. I think both Pokemon would have useful niches and be fun to try out.
1/6th of your team maybe, but not 1/6th of your decisions by a long shot. Also, this isn't really true in the first place so whatever; suicide leads can be effective but even they end up performing other duties. So saying that it's "1/6th of our team" is rather misleading.Phizzlax said:
This doesn't matter for reasons many people have brought up throughout this entire thread, myself included.
How so?
True or not: so what? It's not like this is the CaP server and we just invented a move that changes everything Pokemon has ever been about. This is the 4th gen, you can't somehow say that "this isn't how Pokemon should be" when it pretty much by definition is, until we actually find something wrong with the way the game is working right now. I'd say that competitive Pokemon is losing its roots by trying to remove an aspect of the game that has thus far failed, miserably, to prove broken, or even "unskillful" (in the sense that it brings no net strategy to the game, so don't say "but it's so easy to use," that's besides the point).
I could easily argue that a hyper offensive metagame is actually a good thing (and in fact I do believe this, and I don't even really enjoy using that strategy), especially considering that we all know that stall is still perfectly viable.
Stealth Rock is what balances the game. Without it, we'd have to be much more prepared for switching constantly. I do support a test though, hopefully it will stop people from saying "but then salamence and gyarados and focus sash will be on liek all teams!1!"
Fact is, Salamence and Gyarados are ALREADY on every team. And nobody will use Sash, everybody knows they are crap and there is always a better item to choose.
Fact is, Salamence and Gyarados are ALREADY on every team. And nobody will use Sash, everybody knows they are crap and there is always a better item to choose.
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