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IronBullet

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I've played a significant number of games now against Crawdaunt and really don't understand some of the ban arguments. Yes it packs incredible power and is a huge threat, but it is just so slow and frail that I've not found it difficult to check. I don't think all this talk about it being broken against balance and offense has been backed up with valid reasoning. There are many viable offensive checks that teams can run against it. Hydreigon, Toxicroak, Whimsicott, Heliolisk, Virizion, Cobalion, Salamence, Shaymin, and Rotom-C (just off the top of my head) are all perfectly good Pokemon in their own right and can switch into at least one, if not both, of Crawdaunt's STABs and beat it. Of course, if the Crawdaunt user predicts perfectly and nails the check on the switch, e.g. Whismi with Sludge Wave, then fair play to him. However you need to keep in mind, as has been stated before many times, that prediction goes both ways. Crawdaunt is so frail that if it attacks with the wrong move it's either taking a truckload of damage or outright being KOed, which wastes the hard work you need to make to get in Crawdaunt in the first place. It's all fine to say that Crawdaunt has the coverage to beat its checks on paper, but it can only use these on the switch in most cases and you have to predict perfectly to take advantage of them. It's the ideal example of a high risk / reward Pokemon. Even if Crawdaunt manages to somehow get an SD off, there are still plenty of Pokemon that can take an Aqua Jet and can KO it - just look at the list above. On the other hand if Crawdaunt is switched out, you either concede momentum or give the opponent an opportunity to set up, which can obviously have damaging consequences. If Crawdaunt's ability to defeat offense / balance with its power and priority is what makes it broken then the same can be said for Lucario, Entei, and Mamoswine. All of these Pokemon are fearsome wallbreakers with powerful priority that have the ability to significantly threaten teams, but that doesn't make them broken. Just like Crawdaunt, there are plenty of ways to handle them.

As for Crawdaunt's matchup against stall, of course it's extremely threatening but then so are the likes of Hydreigon, Salamence, Feraligatr, and Lucario, which can all run coverage moves and have the sheer power to take out even their hardest counters. Stall has always managed to adjust to previous threats, being forced to adapt to a new one doesn't make it broken. If a Crawdaunt 6-0s a stall team then that simply comes down to poor teambuilding. Again, there are plenty of checks to Crawdaunt for stall to consider that are still viable options even in a Crawdaunt-less metagame. If people were forced to run obscure strategies, like HP Ice Bronzong for Zygarde, to counter Crawdaunt then yeah that could be an indication of overcentralization but this is not such a case.

If people want to argue that Crawdaunt is broken, that's fine, but you can't expect to be taken seriously with statements like its priority is too overpowering to handle, which it really isn't, or that it punishes bad choices and can defeat its checks with coverage moves, which is something that can be said out for pretty much any good wallbreaker. Sam made an excellent point in that Crawdaunt rewards good play. If you use Crawdaunt extremely well then chances are that it's going to put in a lot of work and blow some major holes in the opposing team. But the exact same can be said for Hydreigon, Salamence, Lucario, and Mega Sharpedo, and yet no one seems to be calling for their heads. Also, if you're talking about Crawdaunt rewarding good play, then you need to consider the opposite argument as well: if you play well against Crawdaunt, you can render it ineffective, which isn't hard to fathom considering its abysmal bulk and speed.

Crawdaunt has huge wallbreaking capability and is definitely a threat to take into account when you build teams, but that's the extent of its pros. It's very frail and slow and can even end up as dead weight seeing as it's almost impossible to switch in safely and does have plenty of viable checks for teams to utilise against it. If anything Mamoswine is more problematic to face than Crawdaunt thanks to its much better bulk, speed, and offensive typing, yet as of now it's comfortably in the tier. I'll be voting to keep Crawdaunt in UU.
 
There is something pro unban users are completely missing. Balance has already enough problems with the introduction of new threats and is yet to digest them. Why adding an additional strain like Craudaunt and push the knife into the cut? Mamoswine causes already huge problems to balance, adding Craudaunt will just kill the play style.

We should really stop the "we adapted to Salamence, Mamoswine, and Ferraligatr" arguments. The balance play style is in a lack of adaptation and has already enough difficulties. Introducing Craudaunt will cause polarization of the metagame, It will be divided between passive stall and offensive teams. It's introduction will do nothing but harm the tier. It only benefits offensive players who have no drawbacks. It's easy for them to talk, they almost have no adaptation effort to do.
 

Kink

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There is something pro unban users are completely missing. Balance has already enough problems with the introduction of new threats and is yet to digest them. Why adding an additional strain like Craudaunt and push the knife into the cut? Mamoswine causes already huge problems to balance, adding Craudaunt will just kill the play style.

We should really stop the "we adapted to Salamence, Mamoswine, and Ferraligatr" arguments. The balance play style is in a lack of adaptation and has already enough difficulties. Introducing Craudaunt will cause polarization of the metagame, It will be divided between passive stall and offensive teams. It's introduction will do nothing but harm the tier. It only benefits offensive players who have no drawbacks. It's easy for them to talk, they almost have no adaptation effort to do.
As one of UUs top balance players, I can tell you that this is 100% false. I'm finding no definitive constraints in my team building; quite the opposite, Crawdaunt has expedited my creativity with all of the recent drops. If you're gonna make false erroneous claims about a playing style that you don't know much about, I'ma stop you right there without letting you finish.

As soon as I get home from twerking for money, I will provide replays and a list of teams that both thrive in this meta, and are balance.
 
also, http://pastebin.com/UyTzLca4, won me 23 str8 on the ladder last night against different Crawdaunt and non-Crawdaunt teams. Had no trouble.
Is this an example of the creative things youre able to do in the Crawdaunt meta? Im obv being sarcastic bc that team is extra standard. The reason certain balance teams can "deal" with Craw is bc they would pack a defensive and offensive check. I can see it already teams in fear of Craw and in preparation of ot creating weaknesses to other things. Just bc you as a top player can properly build and play around craw doesnt mean it is healthy for the meta.
 

Adaam

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There is something pro unban users are completely missing. Balance has already enough problems with the introduction of new threats and is yet to digest them. Why adding an additional strain like Craudaunt and push the knife into the cut? Mamoswine causes already huge problems to balance, adding Craudaunt will just kill the play style.

We should really stop the "we adapted to Salamence, Mamoswine, and Ferraligatr" arguments. The balance play style is in a lack of adaptation and has already enough difficulties. Introducing Craudaunt will cause polarization of the metagame, It will be divided between passive stall and offensive teams. It's introduction will do nothing but harm the tier. It only benefits offensive players who have no drawbacks. It's easy for them to talk, they almost have no adaptation effort to do.
Why is this Crawdaunt's fault? Should we ban any potential new threat in the future because it may make balance have to adapt? It seems very arbitrary that the line has been drawn right now for the amount of threats balance can feasibly handle, especially since there already have been so many viable checks to it that have been listed for balance.

I get that it's list of 100% hard counters are very small to non existent, but again, that applies to so many other wall breakers. Plus, there are a number of small adaptations that can be made to limit Crawdaunt's threat that don't require balance to bend over backwards to check. Here are a few:

Jellicent can run Colbur (which honestly is its best item even before Craw). You can tank a Knock Off, or it may over predict and Crabhammer and bam its crippled (85% of the time lol).

Reuniclus also can run Colbur (again, viable option) and assuming you done miss, KO with FB.

Other psychics like Cress and Slowking can run Colbur but lack the ability to cripple it outside of T-Wave or scald burn, but every bit counts.

Creep Craw with Mega Stoise and use Aura Sphere to annihilate it. Again, Aura Sphere is not a niche move, as it hits Snorlax, Empoleon, Kyurem, Hydreigon (in case they predict Scald), Helilosk, and Abomasnow for big damage as well.

Try out new criminally underused Megas instead of spamming the same old boring Aero/Mega Bee voltturn Balance everyone loves. Sceptile easily forces it out. Mega Abomasnow is a great check and also very Antimeta at the same time with all the Zapdos/Pert/Florges cores running around. Someone else beat me to it but Mega Ampharos is also a beautiful check to it that scares it out and gains you momentum with Volt Switch (admittedly I found it to be a stellar partner for Crawdaunt as well). Before you say "but that's restricting team building!", is it really though? Sure Crawdaunt will affect certain mons viability, but why is that wrong? Is any threat that makes the current standard less viable while making lesser used mons (that are still good!) more viable "over centralizing?" I think not.

That also leaves off already common threats like Hydra, Mence, Croak etc but they have been named too many times to count.

It seems to me that the big fear for pro ban arguments is that there will be too many threats now, and Crawdaunt doesn't have a catch all counter like how Cress walls Nidoqueen, Chandelure walls 90% of Apes etc to slap onto teams. Please do not think like this and try something new or small item tweaks. If you really think the too many threats idea is a big one, then we can suspect a different thing you turn out to be right (such as Mamo, but note that I am NOT trying to get a Mamo suspect I am just giving a possible scenario if balance really is overwhelmed after the Craw meta settles). But solely blaming Crawdaunt is unfair and not valid reasoning.

After I got my reqs and read all these arguments, I will be voting no ban
 

Kink

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Just bc you as a top player can properly build and play around craw doesnt mean it is healthy for the meta.
Never said that. I said " I'm finding no definitive constraints in my team building; quite the opposite, Crawdaunt has expedited my creativity with all of the recent drops." Also, thanks for including one of my teams! I'm pleased to know that you agree with me that you can build standard teams with no constraints! Much obliged.

Here is said team.
Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Roar

Florges @ Leftovers
Ability: Flower Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Aromatherapy
- Wish
- Protect

Kyurem @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Focus Blast

Reuniclus @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
- Calm Mind
- Recover

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 140 Def / 96 SpD / 24 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Toxic
- Roost
- Defog

Cobalion @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge


Here's another
Gardevoir @ Choice Specs
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Shadow Ball
- Trick

Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic Spikes
- Acid Spray

Cobalion @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 124 HP / 152 Atk / 232 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Iron Head
- Close Combat
- Volt Switch

Salamence @ Lum Berry
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw

Mamoswine @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 236 HP / 136 Atk / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Ice Shard
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Protect

Zapdos @ Magnet
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 80 HP / 176 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Roost
- Metal Sound


oh look here's another one
Krookodile @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge

Tangrowth @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Relaxed Nature
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Giga Drain
- Sleep Powder
- Knock Off

Empoleon (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Roar

Salamence @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Roost
- Defog

Machamp @ Assault Vest
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Atk / 96 Def / 60 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch
- Bullet Punch

Rotom-Heat @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 92 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Volt Switch
- Will-O-Wisp
- Thunder Wave


another
Toxicroak @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Sludge Wave
- Vacuum Wave

Hydreigon @ Dragon Fang
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Taunt
- Roost

Blastoise-Mega @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Rain Dish
EVs: 252 HP / 100 SpA / 156 Spe
Modest Nature
- Scald
- Rapid Spin
- Ice Beam
- Aura Sphere

Whimsicott @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- Moonblast
- Stun Spore
- U-turn

Chandelure @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Trick
- Memento

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Scald
- Roar

^ this is one is from before Crawdaunt.

So, in case you couldn't gather MY sarcasm, Gully and friends: wake up. Balance is the LEAST affected by Crawdaunt.
 
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Shadestep

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With all due respect, my post wasn't a pro-Crawdaunt post. It was a "this is how you should properly evaluate Crawdaunt"
also, http://pastebin.com/UyTzLca4, won me 23 str8 on the ladder last night against different Crawdaunt and non-Crawdaunt teams. Had no trouble.
Hi King UU thanks for the team it worked pretty good and got me the final 100 points for my reqs
Btw how did you manage to avoid finding a Nidoking team in 23 straight games because it literally 6-0s the squad

Pce out
 

Sam

i say it's all just wind in sails
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There is something pro unban users are completely missing. Balance has already enough problems with the introduction of new threats and is yet to digest them. Why adding an additional strain like Craudaunt and push the knife into the cut? Mamoswine causes already huge problems to balance, adding Craudaunt will just kill the play style.

We should really stop the "we adapted to Salamence, Mamoswine, and Ferraligatr" arguments. The balance play style is in a lack of adaptation and has already enough difficulties. Introducing Craudaunt will cause polarization of the metagame, It will be divided between passive stall and offensive teams. It's introduction will do nothing but harm the tier. It only benefits offensive players who have no drawbacks. It's easy for them to talk, they almost have no adaptation effort to do.
What adaptations have you found yourself having to make for Crawdaunt? Like, specific changes to teams and the like?
 
I feel like a lot of my anti-ban sentiment is coming from playing purely offense. But when I look at it, the Lobster doesn't really give my teams issues. It's so easy to keep offensive pressure on it, and it feels like such a momentum sink. I found myself struggling to play with it at all because it's so slow and it kills the momentum that's there, at least for me. But I look at this logically, and I see a stupidly powerful wallbreaker that at least looks like it should give stall a metric shitload of problems. So even if I don't get reqs, could somebody who does play stall give me an opinion on this thing and how it affects that style so I don't feel like I'm 50/50 on this?
 

Manipulative

Camila <3
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There are many viable offensive checks that teams can run against it. Hydreigon, Toxicroak, Whimsicott, Heliolisk, Virizion, Cobalion, Salamence, Shaymin, and Rotom-C (just off the top of my head) are all perfectly good Pokemon in their own right and can switch into at least one, if not both, of Crawdaunt's STABs and beat it.
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 161-190 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 203-239 (66.1 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Whimsicott: 168-198 (64.3 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 481-567 (181.5 - 213.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 192-227 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 237-281 (73.1 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 231-273 (69.7 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 286-338 (83.8 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom-C: 268-317 (111.2 - 131.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO


So like, these switch ins are still taking extreme damage, while Crawdaunt delivers a free attack and can then switch out, allowing a maximum of one more switch in for any of these mons. The exceptions to this are Toxicroak and Heliolisk, who force 50/50 situations instead of taking certain damage.



However you need to keep in mind, as has been stated before many times, that prediction goes both ways. Crawdaunt is so frail that if it attacks with the wrong move it's either taking a truckload of damage or outright being KOed, which wastes the hard work you need to make to get in Crawdaunt in the first place.
Yes, predictions do go both ways. As I attempted to explain in my previous post however, Crawdaunt puts a very unhealthy amount of pressure on predictions because it doesn't have any hard counters, unlike just about everything else. The amount of 50/50s it will force is by no means healthy.



It's all fine to say that Crawdaunt has the coverage to beat its checks on paper, but it can only use these on the switch in most cases and you have to predict perfectly to take advantage of them. It's the ideal example of a high risk / reward Pokemon. Even if Crawdaunt manages to somehow get an SD off, there are still plenty of Pokemon that can take an Aqua Jet and can KO it - just look at the list above. On the other hand if Crawdaunt is switched out, you either concede momentum or give the opponent an opportunity to set up, which can obviously have damaging consequences. If Crawdaunt's ability to defeat offense / balance with its power and priority is what makes it broken then the same can be said for Lucario, Entei, and Mamoswine. All of these Pokemon are fearsome wallbreakers with powerful priority that have the ability to significantly threaten offensive teams, but that doesn't make them broken. Just like Crawdaunt, they also have plenty of ways for offensive / balanced teams to handle them.
I don't think Crawdaunt is necessarily broken against offense, but it sure as hell will at least be as much of a threat as the mons you listed here. As for Crawdaunt's coverage/checks, I'll be addressing that next.



As for Crawdaunt's matchup against stall teams, of course it's extremely threatening but then so are the likes of Hydreigon, Salamence, Feraligatr, and Lucario, which can all run coverage moves and have the sheer power to take out even their hardest counters. Stall has always managed to adjust to previous threats, being forced to adapt to a new one doesn't make it broken. If a Crawdaunt 6-0s a stall team then that simply comes down to poor teambuilding. Again, there are plenty of checks to Crawdaunt for stall to consider that are still viable options even in a Crawdaunt-less metagame. If people were forced to run obscure strategies, like HP Ice Bronzong for Zygarde, to counter Crawdaunt then yeah that could be an indication of overcentralization but this is not such a case.
So I made a mistake in including Aerial Ace in Crawdaunt's set for my argument in my last post. Let me try this again. Crawdaunt's standard set already annihilates almost everything. The only thing Aerial Ace was included for was to check Chesnaught. Well, Poliwrath also comes to mind, but hopefully we don't even have to go there. Back to the point. Why should something that is able to drop every pokemon in the tier, bar Chesnaught, with JUST its stabs be allowed in? As I've said before, everything else dies to a +2 Crawdaunt after SR and Spikes. What does this mean? It means that Mega Ampharos is not necessarily a counter, Mega Aggron is not necessarily a counter, Tangrowth is not necessarily a counter, and so on. All this to just its standard set? Crawdaunt hardly needs any coverage. While keeping its set to having maximum efficiency against offense, it still rips through defense. All of the other mons you named have hardcounters to standard sets. Most of them, if not all, have hardcounters even when using coverage sets.



If people want to argue that Crawdaunt is broken, that's fine, but you can't expect to be taken seriously with statements like its priority is too overpowering to handle, which it really isn't, or that it punishes bad choices and can defeat its checks with coverage moves, which is something that can be said out for pretty much any good wallbreaker. Sam made an excellent point in that Crawdaunt rewards good play. If you use Crawdaunt extremely well then chances are that it's going to put in a lot of work and blow some major holes in the opposing team. But the exact same can be said for Hydreigon, Salamence, Lucario, and Mega Sharpedo, and yet no one seems to be calling for their heads. Also, if you're talking about Crawdaunt rewarding good play, then you need to consider the opposite argument as well: if you play well against Crawdaunt, you can render it ineffective, which isn't hard to fathom considering its abysmal bulk and speed.
Crawdaunt does not reward good play. It does not punish bad plays either. When something ohkos or 2hkos everything in the tier, the game comes down to mere guesses. Crawdaunt rewards the correct guess and punishes the wrong one. I tried to explain this earlier. Once again, every time Crawdaunt comes in on anything slower than it, unable to kill it, or threatened by Aqua Jet, it is capable of dealing a severe blow, forcing a 50/50 situation, setting up and potentially dealing even more severe damage, or outright killing something. Heck, in most cases, you could just mindlessly spam your stabs to force 50/50s into your favor. If your opponent switches, you get a free hard blow against whatever. If your opponent doesn't switch, you still get a hard blow and live to probably deal even more damage. This applies to every mon, except the fact that Crawdaunt, in this situation, hits way too hard against whatever the opponent. Also, any other mon's hard blows =/= Crawdaunt's hard blows.



Mamoswine could force 50/50s. Hydreigon could force 50/50s. Salamence could force 50/50s. None of them do this to 99% of the tier with a single set. None of them don't have hard counters. Crawdaunt is a completely different case, and I think that it's just silly to try and compare him to any other wallbreakers in the tier. Having to predict sometimes is nice and all, but when you have to do this on almost every match up against one pokemon, well, I find that to make it broken. Crawdaunt is already as much of a threat as it is against offense, and forces enough 50/50s even against that playstyle due to having a priority. I agree that it isn't as overwhelming to this playstyle (despite most of those offensive switch ins taking 70% and upwards from an attack) as it is to every other playstyle though. When Crawdaunt is up against slower teams, ones who actually care about having a defensive core and switch ins to common threats (unlike offense for the most part), it becomes an absolute monster. It punishes and fully takes advantage of passiveness and defense, and to a much higher degree than any other mon that you could think of. Crawdaunt's addition extremely benefits offensive teams (I play either offense or balance myself), but just puts way too much pressure on passiveness and defense. Why should someone have to throw a coin up every time Crawdaunt is in against something passive, unable to kill it, or is threatened by priority? The wrong guess leads to having to sac something. This is NOT necessarily the case with Feraligatr, Salamence, Hydreigon, Mamo, and so on. Once again, Crawdaunt almost completely takes away safe plays, and just shouldn't be allowed into the tier because of this.
 
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Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
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UU & Tour Head
Mamoswine could force 50/50s. Hydreigon could force 50/50s. Salamence could force 50/50s. None of them do this to 99% of the tier with a single set.
...how exactly does Crawdaunt force 50/50s against 99% of the tier?

I'm looking at the Viability Rankings right now, and it doesn't force a 50/50 against well over half the tier. Going down the list we have Salamence, Hydreigon, Mega Swampert, Zapdos, Cobalion, Whimsicott, Mega Blastoise, Toxicroak, Azelf, Kyurem, Shaymin, regular Pert, Heracross, Sableye, Mega Abomasnow, Rotom-C, Lucario, Mega Sceptile, Roserade, Cresselia, Mega Aggron and Heliolisk. Crawdaunt doesn't force 50/50s on any of those. I can keep going down the list if you'd like. That's not including 'mons like Tentacruel, Suicune and Empoleon, who can all beat Crawdaunt depending on set.

Certainly not all of these want to switch into Crawdaunt, but that's not what a 50/50 is. A 50/50 would be something like having Aero out against Crawdaunt and being forced to choose between staying in and risking the Aqua Jet or switching out and risking the Knock Off.

Please don't confuse "hard to switch into" with "forces 50/50s."
 

Manipulative

Camila <3
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...how exactly does Crawdaunt force 50/50s against 90% of the tier?

I'm looking at the Viability Rankings right now, and it doesn't force a 50/50 against well over half the tier. Going down the list we have Salamence, Hydreigon, Mega Swampert, Zapdos, Cobalion, Whimsicott, Mega Blastoise, Toxicroak, Azelf, Kyurem, Shaymin, regular Pert, Heracross, Sableye, Mega Abomasnow, Rotom-C, Lucario, Mega Sceptile, Roserade, Cresselia, Mega Aggron and Heliolisk. Crawdaunt doesn't force 50/50s on any of those. I can keep going down the list if you'd like. That's not including 'mons like Tentacruel, Suicune and Empoleon, who can all beat Crawdaunt depending on set.

Certainly not all of these want to switch into Crawdaunt, but that's not what a 50/50 is. A 50/50 would be something like having Aero out against Crawdaunt and being forced to choose between staying in and risking the Aqua Jet or switching out and risking the Knock Off.

Please don't confuse "hard to switch into" with "forces 50/50s."
I apologize for poor phrasing on my part. What I meant was that as soon as Crawdaunt is in on something fearing aqua jet, something passive, or simply slower and unable to kill it, both users are forced into guessing because that much of the tier is capable of getting screwed by Daunt. The majority of offensive checks are taking 70% or upward, or half at the very least from an unboosted, resisted stab if they feel like switching in. Pile that with any prior damage and hazards, and its a huge problem. Defensive checks obviously aren't handling a +2 stab unless that very little prior damage was not already dealt. Basically, to not have to go through that 50/50 the moment Crawdaunt threatens what it is in on (Is less intimidating against offensive teams for obvious reasons), you need Chesnaught on your team to hard counter just that said set, or a fat mence, who takes severely less from an unboosted stab than most. Still, a standard fat mence is dealing 60-70% before dying to a +2 stab if it is on the SD.

Edit: Defensive Whimsicott could work too. Also, in case I wasn't clear, the reason why Cobalion, Zapdos, and so on aren't here is because even defensive Zapdos is taking a million from an unboosted Crab Hammer + Rocks on the switch in, and then gets finished by Aqua Jet. 252HP Cobalion (Lol) is a similar case, where crab hammer + a layer or two of spikes + aqua jet is capable of doing the trick. Once again, this is all just to that single, standard set. This is completely ignoring any use of coverage moves, like what are being used in arguing that other wallbreakers can beat their checks too.
 
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YABO

King Turt
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You're forgetting that clicking anything but aqua jet is just as dangerous for the crawdaunt user as it is for his opponent. If you Aqua Jet into a Cobalion you're forced out, if you hammer the switch you die to stone edge potentially. That's why these theoretical arguments don't hold so much weight as they seem to on paper. Crawdaunt is another classic example of a pokemon that ravages everything on paper but fails to do so in practical situations, similar to pokemon like Mamoswine recently and thoughout the ages with pokemon like Infernape, Lucario, and Salamence when they dropped into the tier.
 

IronBullet

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An offensive check is something that can switch into at least one of Crawdaunt's moves with and defeat it or force it out, which is exactly what each of the Pokemon I listed does. All those calcs are irrelevant when you're just considering the moves that hit the check in question the hardest. Even if the Pokemon can't switch in more than once into Crawdaunt, that's usually enough because face it, Crawdaunt's bulk is so bad that it is very unlikely Crawdaunt itself will get more than one opportunity to come in. And don't say "after a Pokemon dies" because I can just as easily use that argument for the opposing team. Also, Crawdaunt is not simply delivering a free attack and switching out. I just addressed this in my previous post. For one, it takes a lot of work to get Crawdaunt in in the first place due to its bad bulk and speed. If Crawdaunt is switched out, you either concede momentum or give the opponent an opportunity to set up, which can obviously have damaging consequences.

The amount of 50/50s it forces are unhealthy? Almost every single offensive threat forces 50/50s. It's part and parcel of the game if you're playing offense. Will Hydreigon Draco Metoer or try to Fire Blast my Whimsicott on the switch? Will Krookodile Pursuit or not? Will Sharpedo Protect or attack? Each of these situations can have as significant a consequence as Crawdaunt's attacks.

Regarding the comparison with other wallbreakers, Salamence, Hydreigon, and Lucario have no hard counters either. Sure Crawdaunt is more powerful than them, but it's a lot frailer and has significantly less opportunities to switch in which makes it less troublesome to deal with overall. Mence and Hydrei have a lot more staying power and access to reliable recovery, while Lucario and Mamoswine at least have the resistances, speed, and bulk in Mamo's case to switch in multiple times throughout a match.

"Why should something that is able to drop every pokemon in the tier, bar Chesnaught, with JUST its stabs be allowed in?" It doesn't do that though. All the checks I listed can switch in at least once and threaten it / force it out. Apart from Chesnaught, the likes of FatMence and Hydreigon can switch in comfortably and either Roost of the damage or beat it outright. You also keep missing the main point which is that Crawdaunt is so frail and slow that it's not going to get the opportunity to come in 50 times in a game. It's never going to 6-0 teams. It doesn't have any surefire 100% switch-ins but neither do other powerful wallbreakers. And if they aren't broken, Crawdaunt surely isn't either.

Crawdaunt can't just mindlessly spam its STABs because like I stated before, there are plenty of Pokemon that can comfortably switch into at least one of its STABs. If you predict the Pokemon switching in and select the right move then good for you. If you don't and select the wrong move and the opponent stays in, Crawdaunt is either taking a truckload of damage or outright being KOed because it's just that frail. It's equally risky for the Crawdaunt user to overpredict as it is for the opponent. If the Crawdaunt user makes the wrong guess, result = dead Crawdaunt. It goes both ways!

Honestly a lot of what you said ignores the main issue against Crawdaunt which is that it's not switching in whenever it likes. It's much frailer and slower than UU's other wallbreakers, which makes it a lot easier to check. The game does not come down to mere guesses; the concept of playing optimally still exists. If you're just spamming Crawdaunt's STABs then Pokemon like Whimsicott and Hydreigon still switch in quite comfortably and either gain momentum on the switch or comfortably Roost off the damage. Crawdaunt is then forced out and isn't coming in again easily. It does not take away safe plays because, again, it's as dangerous for the Crawdaunt user to overpredict as it is for the opponent. You can't assume that the opponent will be playing safe and the Crawdaunt user will predict perfectly.
 

Manipulative

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You're forgetting that clicking anything but aqua jet is just as dangerous for the crawdaunt user as it is for his opponent. If you Aqua Jet into a Cobalion you're forced out, if you hammer the switch you die to stone edge potentially. That's why these theoretical arguments don't hold so much weight as they seem to on paper. Crawdaunt is another classic example of a pokemon that ravages everything on paper but fails to do so in practical situations, similar to pokemon like Mamoswine recently and thoughout the ages with pokemon like Infernape, Lucario, and Salamence when they dropped into the tier.
I'm well aware that its just as dangerous for Crawdaunt. I never said it wasn't. What I'm saying is that this being the case against almost every match up is unhealthy. 50/50s to this degree aren't okay, in my opinion. This isn't the case with Mamo when it gets hardwalled by Mola, Defensive Rotom Heat, Cresselia regardless of set. Gatr has Aggron, Cune, Mola, P2 (bar superpower for this one), and so on for every set. This applies to everything but Daunt. Crawdaunt has only Chesnaught, Whimsicott, Fat Mence (to an extent), and Poliwrath (I hope this doesn't become a thing), for JUST its standard set. This doesn't consider any other sets it could carry at all, which are so versatile that there's never gonna be a solid check to this thing to all sets like there are for others. Nothing holds as much pure strength as this thing..
 
I'm well aware that its just as dangerous for Crawdaunt. I never said it wasn't. What I'm saying is that this being the case against almost every match up is unhealthy. 50/50s to this degree aren't okay, in my opinion. This isn't the case with Mamo when it gets hardwalled by Mola, Defensive Rotom Heat, Cresselia regardless of set. Gatr has Aggron, Cune, Mola, P2 (bar superpower for this one), and so on for every set. This applies to everything but Daunt. Crawdaunt has only Chesnaught, Whimsicott, Fat Mence (to an extent), and Poliwrath (I hope this doesn't become a thing), for JUST its standard set. This doesn't consider any other sets it could carry at all, which are so versatile that there's never gonna be a solid check to this thing to all sets like there are for others. Nothing holds as much pure strength as this thing..
You're just contradicting yourself here when you're talking about the "standard sets". Yes the standard sets for Mamo and Gatr and whatnot are walled by the mons you've named. But what about the non standard sets? Mamo can beat Alomomola with Freeze Dry, it can beat Rotom with Stone edge and it can keep Knocking Cresselia and make it waste its Moonlights, severely crippling it. Sub Gatr was a huge thing when Sheer Force was released due to how powerful it was against stall. It allowed it to beat the things you named with ease. It is one of the main reason as to why Roar is so common nowadays on Suicune. Same principle holds for Crawdaunt. Of course it can beat its checks/counters if you so choose to run the right moves. There is a huge opportunity cost to running these coverage moves. Not running SD will make Crawdaunt almost useless against stall/balance since it's just walled by common bulky waters.

Also I'd like to clarify that the game of Pokemon rarely comes down to purely guesses or 50/50s or whatever you want to call it. Almost every decision made in a game is based on previous observations. Hypothetically speaking, if everyone on ladder has the same team with a Crawdaunt on it, then by your logic, allowing enough time to pass and the ladder comes to a steady state, everyone would have the same points. This is obviously not the case as some players will come out on top. Any good player will make careful observation of how his/her opponent played previously as well as their team structure and thereby try to make the best possible decision. So saying the game comes down to guesses is just a load of shit.

Edit: gotta go out in a sec so this post was made in a haste.
 
Never said that. I said " I'm finding no definitive constraints in my team building; quite the opposite, Crawdaunt has expedited my creativity with all of the recent drops." Also, thanks for including one of my teams! I'm pleased to know that you agree with me that you can build standard teams with no constraints! Much obliged.

Here is said team.
Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Roar

Florges @ Leftovers
Ability: Flower Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Aromatherapy
- Wish
- Protect

Kyurem @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Focus Blast

Reuniclus @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
- Calm Mind
- Recover

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 140 Def / 96 SpD / 24 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Toxic
- Roost
- Defog

Cobalion @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge


Here's another
Gardevoir @ Choice Specs
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Shadow Ball
- Trick

Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic Spikes
- Acid Spray

Cobalion @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 124 HP / 152 Atk / 232 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Iron Head
- Close Combat
- Volt Switch

Salamence @ Lum Berry
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw

Mamoswine @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 236 HP / 136 Atk / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Ice Shard
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Protect

Zapdos @ Magnet
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 80 HP / 176 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Roost
- Metal Sound


oh look here's another one
Krookodile @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge

Tangrowth @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Relaxed Nature
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Giga Drain
- Sleep Powder
- Knock Off

Empoleon (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Roar

Salamence @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Roost
- Defog

Machamp @ Assault Vest
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Atk / 96 Def / 60 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch
- Bullet Punch

Rotom-Heat @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 92 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Volt Switch
- Will-O-Wisp
- Thunder Wave


another
Toxicroak @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Sludge Wave
- Vacuum Wave

Hydreigon @ Dragon Fang
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Taunt
- Roost

Blastoise-Mega @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Rain Dish
EVs: 252 HP / 100 SpA / 156 Spe
Modest Nature
- Scald
- Rapid Spin
- Ice Beam
- Aura Sphere

Whimsicott @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- Moonblast
- Stun Spore
- U-turn

Chandelure @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Trick
- Memento

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Scald
- Roar

^ this is one is from before Crawdaunt.

So, in case you couldn't gather MY sarcasm, Gully and friends: wake up. Balance is the LEAST affected by Crawdaunt.
I would only say the third team can comfortably take Craw. The first I GUARANTEE that you mostly beat Craw with preemptive doubles or other tactics of that sort, the first doesnt have any switch ins to it. 4 attacks Craw gets a kills every time it comes in on your other team (if Ice Beam it is more threatening to it if Sludge less but it still would beat that growth set.) Only the third one would be able to deal with Craw alot but the thing is that you picked that team because it had 4 counters/checks on it! That otherwise would not be that great tbh with you but this isn't RMT. The reason why you think that those teams bar the 3rd are good for Craw is because you know how to play. (even tho ur still not me tbh)
 

Ununhexium

i am groot
is a Contributor Alumnus
I really like having Crawdaunt around, so if I vote, I will vote for it to stay UU.

Is it a good Pokemon? Yes. Is it broken? No.

The one thing that makes Crawdaunt really tough to use, in my opinion, is just how slow it is. For Crawdaunt to really put in the amount of damage is is so well famed for, it needs to set up. But do any of you pro-ban people know how hard it is to set Crawdaunt up? It's pretty hard. To set up Crawdaunt, you either need to tank a hit or force something out. Unfortunately, it is very frail, so tanking a hit is, for the most part, out of the question. So you're going to force it out, right? Well to force out, you really need to be able to beat the other Pokemon. Because Crawdaunt is so slow, it's really hard to force something out. However, before that even, you need to bring it in first. You don't really want to have to sack a Pokemon to set up a wallbreaker in most cases, the the "you can just let a mon die" is out of the question for the most part. So VoltTurn it in, right? Unfortunately, quite a few of the Pokemon Beedrill U-turns out of also beat Crawdaunt (such as Salamence and Cobalion), and nobody is switching in their bulky water willy-nilly on an Electric-type.

Yeah of course when it gets to +2 a lot of stuff dies, but isn't that the same way with pretty much any wallbreaker (Heracross and Hoopa and Zangoose immediately spring to mind)? I don't get why "invalidating stall" is a very good argument when you have other mons that can pull shit like that. Nasty Plot Hoopa also does a lot of damage to stall.

But Hoopa doesn't have STAB priority!

Good point! Crawdaunt isn't total dead weight against offense. And that's why Crawdaunt is better than Hoopa. But you again have to recognize how to really put in a lot of work against offense, Crawdaunt needs to set up, which again is rather difficult because of its low Speed and bulk. Say you can bring Crawdaunt in safely against offense, yes, it can use Aqua Jet, but all it really can do is click Aqua Jet. You don't have many chances against offense to A) bring Crawdaunt in and B) click Crabhammer or Knock Off and watch something drop.

tldr free the Big Bad Crustacean

Ediit: And if you wanna pull up the relatively bad "you need to run multiple checks" argument I'll have you know its not difficult to have multiple checks and they're all good Pokemon in their own rights
 
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Just to be clear: your argument is that we should keep Crawdaunt BL because it unfairly advantages good players?
HAAAN? Lets not play hopscotch I said that he has a distorted view on Crawdaunt because he is able to play around it because he is a good player, those teams are not by any means prepared for Craw lol. Except the team that he saw in his collection that had 4 checks in it decided to post it saying "wha la"

Craw is a mon that is used the best/ correctly when used to capitalize off predicted doubles and slow turns. For a player that can properly build and predict around it it will be less of a problem for those who don't /not experienced enough. (this isn't even my main point its something you wanted to misinterpret/ nitpick)

My argument is that Crawduant puts to much pressure on teambuilding of every archetype to be apart of a healthy meta.
 

LeoLancaster

does this still work
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
I would only say the third team can comfortably take Craw. The first I GUARANTEE that you mostly beat Craw with preemptive doubles or other tactics of that sort, the first doesnt have any switch ins to it. 4 attacks Craw gets a kills every time it comes in on your other team (if Ice Beam it is more threatening to it if Sludge less but it still would beat that growth set.) Only the third one would be able to deal with Craw alot but the thing is that you picked that team because it had 4 counters/checks on it! That otherwise would not be that great tbh with you but this isn't RMT. The reason why you think that those teams bar the 3rd are good for Craw is because you know how to play. (even tho ur still not me tbh)
The Reuniclus team is weak to Craw for sure, but changing the Reuni set to Colbur Focus Blast (completely legit regardless of Craw) means the crab isn't coming in on anything besides Florges and Swampert. If that happens (definitely not the easiest thing in the world consider Craw can't safely switch in on anything), Cobalion can switch in at least once on any move Crawdaunt can throw at it (bar the unlikely Superpower); if you'd rather not for whatever reason, 'Pert can still limit Craw to a single kill (itself) since Earthquake + LO recoil + potentially hazard damage + the fact that Craw still can't come in on anything directly means it's getting few to no opportunities to come in again.

The Specs Gardevoir team doesn't lose a 'mon every time Crawdaunt comes in, for one it has a Cobalion, and secondly Crawdaunt loses 1v1 to everything besides a slightly weakened Gard or Mamo, which it has to Aqua Jet (meaning Cobalion or Salamence can switch in easily, and more than once). Craw could predict, sure, but so could Mamo/Gard and kill the crab outright.

I'd actually argue the Tangrowth team is weakest to Crawdaunt, because Craw can come in on Empoleon and Machamp without having to predict between Aqua Jet and a harder-hitting STAB move. Even then, that's pretty easily fixed by replacing Tangrowth with Chesnaught, which only only loses to Craw if it switches in on Ice Beam/Sludge Wave.

The last team obviously has no problems with Craw, as you said, but as King UU pointed out, it was built before the Craw suspect.

Crawdaunt definitely doesn't destroy these teams. They may need some small adjustments to deal with it, but that's to be expected from every major threat.

Basically, Crawdaunt finds very few opportunities to actually come in and threaten something. It can get more with predictions (goes both ways and increases the skill cap in the metagame, which is a good thing) or voltturn support (which can be said for any strong wallbreaker... LO Mienshao with HJK / SE / PJab / Knock Off 2HKOes anything besides Cress and Chesnaught (hehe) with the right move. It's even pretty fast to not be useless against Offense!). Even when it does come in, there are a number of solid switch ins, such as Chesnaught and Cobalion. Sure, Crawdaunt could potentially take its switchins out by predicting and using a coverage move, but again that goes both ways and can be said for most wallbreakers. Sure, Cobalion and Mega Blastoise might only be able to switch in once, but Craw isn't coming in very often at all, so once could very well be enough.

One of the biggest pitfalls one can fall into is analyzing everything based on how easy it is to switch into, or what a team can't switch into. Yeah balanced teams aren't necessarily switching in 100% of the time safely against Crawdaunt, but if you could do that while also doing it to everything else, you'd have a stall team. Balance has always had to keep certain wallbreakers at bay with offensive pressure, why is Crawdaunt any different?
 

Many

Ehehehehh
is a Tiering Contributor
Crawdaunt ISN'T much different from other absurd wallbreakers like Mamoswine and Tyrantrum.

Crawdaunt has two soft counters in the tier in Chesnaught and Tangrowth, and three offensive checks in Hydreigon, Toxicroak, and Whimsicott

Mamoswine has 2 hard counters in the tier in Alomomola and Cresselia, one soft counter in Suicune, and one offensive check in Rotom-H.

Tyrantrum has 1 hard counter in Mega Aggron, 2 soft counters in Swampert and Mega Swamp, and 1 offensive check in Krookodile.

Neither of these mons puts anymore of a strain on teambuilding than the other. The problem is not that Crawdaunt is even better of a wallbreaker than these pokemon- the problem is that we are introducing yet another absurd wallbreaker to the tier, and this is finally "the straw that broke the camel's back" for defensive teambuilding. The point that many are arguing, is Crawdaunt is simply one too much absurd wallbreaker to account for, and there's no way to account for all of these pokemon without significant stress on defensive teambuilding, and that's simply not healthy.

That is not to say I think Crawdaunt should be banned, I'm just explaining the valid argument of the pro-ban side. I personally find Crawdaunt to be not broken because it has plenty of offensive checks. Aqua Jet can be predicted around as well- of course the Crawdaunt can go for a 50-50, but this doesn't really give the Crawdaunt user the advantage. Meanwhile, while it is unhealthy for defensive building, I don't think it is too the point where the meta cannot viably adapt any longer. Crawdaunt punishes passivity in defense, but switching around with Intimidate users, bulky waters, and bulky grasses can keep the threat contained somewhat.

(also itemless Tangrowth is viable and not "a reach". Tangrowth doesn't lose too much from not running an item.)
 
As a balance player I'm definitely going to vote for Crawdaunt ban. It is by no means comparable to any other wallbreaker in this tier, soz. Adaptability + dual STAB, with one of them being the most powerful Knock Off in the tier, is what pushes it over the edge. At first sight, Crawdaunt's situation is much alike Mamoswine, I guess. They are both the most threatning mons to balance rn. They have quite similar checks. Mamo has trouble switch in since it have some quite bad defensive typing, but once it's in it wrecks things up. Tbh, I used to call Mamo balance breaker, but he is nowhere close to Crawdaunt power.

Crawdaunt counters are kind of bad and easily covered, soz ppl. Whimiscott switch on things that it resists and u turning off is not something discovered now, as such we also all know that Whimisicott won't be able to do this more than twice in a match, especially if hazards are up and/or if it switches on a Knock Off. Chesnaught was getting less and less usage until now, which is understandable since he is a grass type that have trouble against water type mons (no shit Scald is a broken move) and it have 6 weakness, with 2 of them (Fire Blast and Ice Beam) easily found on most coverage of the things it's supposed to wall. Tangrowth can somewhat check Crawdaunt, but then it's taking almost 50% just from Knock Off. If it switches out to regen and your opp stays ur likely fucked. If he switch out, his Crawdaunt loses nothing, especially if you use some grass move, which most Crawdaunt teams are prepared for.

I mean, Knock Off is a really great move, no secrets, but it's definitely different switch in your Tangrowth on a Krookodile than on a Crawdaunt. It's also very different to switch on a Heracross, Mamoswine, Mega Beedril, or any other non STAB Knock Off user. I'm saying this because the player who switches on a Knock Off from previous wallbreakers we had aren't getting any kind of reward from that. They are usually scouting and from now on they have to play a game without their item, usually something important for any mon. But with Crawdaunt they not only lose their item but they also take an Adaptability Knock Off right in their face. Crawdaunt doesn't punish plays. It obliterate.

Crawdaunt is not sweeping teams turn 1 nor midgame - it's definitely not its job, just like any other wallbreaker. He will break holes everytime it have an opportunity. Period. Mamoswine won't break holes whenever it's in, since it's way more easy to predict between a ground and an ice move than water and dark. Any other wallbreaker in this tier will be stopped or at least have some counters that won't restrain teambuild too much. Without Crawdaunt I had way more versatility to work with in UU, being able to be creative when accounting for UU threats. Now, for my balance builds, I will have to look for a way to deal with Crawdaunt, while hoping to take into account the myriads of threats balance already have. Let's be real, how balance can deal with cores like Mamoswine + Crawdaunt? Hope Cobalion stays healthy thru the game? I'm sorry fellas.

It seems pretty clear for me that Crawdaunt is not healthy for this tier. It doesn't bring anything new to UU, like Zapdos and the recents drops did, while just pushing to the limit an already troubled playstyle. It seems like stall doesn't have problem against Daunt, just like offense, but it really makes balanced team even harder to build. Keep it BL.
 
Here's what's confusing me: A month or so ago I stated in a thread that balance was a weak playstyle. I typically run VERY aggressive Offense and usually didn't have a lot of trouble overwhelming Balance, so that was my assumption. Half the moderators and many of our top players rebuffed that, saying that balance was one of the BEST playstyles in the tier right now, despite our plethora of powerful breakers. Absolutely none of the usage-based drops from OU were massive offensive powerhouses. Only Zapdos and Metagross hit very hard, but both of them have at least as much defensive utility as offensive and have been seeing usage as such. Balance has only gotten BETTER since then.

So how is balance suddenly about to die? Based on a lot of these posts the consensus is that Balance is already on its last legs (we've had Mamoswine for MONTHS) and that this is the tipping point.
 
Here's what's confusing me: A month or so ago I stated in a thread that balance was a weak playstyle. I typically run VERY aggressive Offense and usually didn't have a lot of trouble overwhelming Balance, so that was my assumption. Half the moderators and many of our top players rebuffed that, saying that balance was one of the BEST playstyles in the tier right now, despite our plethora of powerful breakers. Absolutely none of the usage-based drops from OU were massive offensive powerhouses. Only Zapdos and Metagross hit very hard, but both of them have at least as much defensive utility as offensive and have been seeing usage as such. Balance has only gotten BETTER since then.

So how is balance suddenly about to die? Based on a lot of these posts the consensus is that Balance is already on its last legs (we've had Mamoswine for MONTHS) and that this is the tipping point.
The basic problem with balance:
While balance is a fantastic laddering playstyle due to its naturally high resilience to "random bullshit", it loses to both focused offense and focused stall from team preview when both sides are piloted by equally skilled players unless the team in question just so happens to sweet spot the meta. This is mostly due to balance wanting to have its cake and eat it too, stacking both a solid offense and defensive core into 6 mon's and 24 moveslots that is actually capable of creating favorable risk/reward scenario's is borderline impossible without heavy reliance on a "broken" core strategy (most successful balance teams have been built around mon's that were later banned).

As for why people who loved balance like their newborn son in the previous meta are now calling it a dead achetype. Reun/other fat wincon balance is how most people see the entire teamstyle, and adapting is hard.
 
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