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We all agree that defensive playstyle can adapt to crawdaunt, but stop denying that it's an really important disavantage for defensive teams.It's clearly a call for an offensive meta, we can make that choice why not, i just ask all of you if you really want it. Defensive playstyle already adapted to the new threats (Mamoswine, Gatr), i just think crawdaunt is on an another dimension than them by putting far more pressure than them but also an additional pressure to consider.
I'm not stupid , i agree with your argument but you just dont consider the real problem, you see crawdaunt as one mon to consider, the problem is its addition with the other threats.
You want to argue Crawdaunt is broken, that's fine. However, using blatantly flawed logic, ignoring how the metagame deals with other threats, posting a bunch of context-less calcs and completely worthless facts, and using silly buzzwords that don't really mean anything (Centralizing, overcentralizing, uncompetitive, etc) is not the way to do so. Tired of reading long posts without any real content. From now on I'm going to infract anyone saying shit like "You have to prepare your teams for Crawdaunt, therefore broken"
Clearly, people cannot follow this. The fact that we've had to infract multiple times recently is pretty saddening. I don't think discussion is going to improve right now so I'm going to lock this to give people more time to formulate their opinions and articulate them without falling in to any of the tropes above - probably for a few hours.
I'm pretty disappointed with the way things have gone so far. I haven't even given out any of the infractions, but I agree with them all. For those of you who think we are solely infracting pro-ban posts, please take the time to actually look over the posts and compare them to what Hikari said. If an anti-ban post does the same thing it will similarly be infracted. I'm not letting my own views get in the way of running an objective tiering process. However, I have expectations for the quality of this thread and it has definitely not been met.
yo i just wanted to say that i laddered now and got reqs and that ill clearly ban crawdaunt.
u basically have to run cobalion and 2 other soft checks just for crawdaunt when u wanna play offense. stall struggles against don too, even chesnaught takes over half from jolly+2 crabbhammer.
it annoys most teams and clearly affects the meta a little bit too much so i wouldnt set that thingi free. crawdaunt disturbs teambuilding as well so im sure to vote ban. my opinion - have a nice day
I had a great conversation on server with dodmen. I would like to post about it here so people can see a good unban/do not unban debate as described by him at the end of our conversation.
1) Craudaunt, unlike other stall breakers(Superpower Hydragon, MixedMence, and Infernape), severely punishes bad choices during a battle. If you switch in Blissey on Superpower Hydragon, you end up with like 30% HP after Leftovers which can allow you to recover later versus any special attacking Pokemon.
Stall will not become "unviable", it basically only needs two things to account for Crawdaunt: a bulky Grass-type fat Salamence, and a bulky Water-type.
Lets say I have Tangrowth and Alomomola. If I want to scout for Ice Beam and I go to Alomomola and it ends up being Swords Dance, there is at least 1 Pokemon who will die or I might actually get swept. With Craudaunt, unlike other stall breakers you can not do a bad move. Craudaunt is hugely damaging to stall and 50-50s are needed to avoid it just sweeping the entire team. If you lose that coin flip you lose an important pillar of your stall team or just lose the entire game.
Unlike other stall breakers like Infernape(all sets walled by Slowking even Nasty Plot Life Orb Grass Knot), Superpower Hydragon(keeps Blissey at 30% which enables it to recover later), Mixed Mence who can be scouted depending on the stall team, with Craudaunt you have no right to make a mistake.
2) Craudaunt unlike other stall breakers like Banded Heracross or Calm Mind Chandelure is really helpful versus HO since he has a very strong priority in Aqua Jet
that can kill or severely damage Mega Beedrill, Mienshao, Aerodactyle, and others.
3) I understand all the points pro unban people are taking about and most of them make sense but they are really taking it from an offensive point of view. Craudaunt first has huge offensive power, can defeat it's checks, can stall break, and has a very strong priority.
It's really too much for the UU metagame and really a huge punch in the face of stall and bulky teams. For me it's definitely unhealthy. I urge people to reconsider their opinions. #DONOTFREEDAUNT2015
TL:DR version the meta is going to naturally shift towards a more aggressive sort of semi/full stall with sab's recent drop. It's just what happens (look at late xy shadow tag stall meta for an example)
In terms of running janky nonstandard sets... going itemless on a mon that already gets knocked 10 games out of 10 to always safely scout/hard check/hard counter crawdaunt on full passive stall is a hilariously small adaptation (points to shedina stall in OU). It pretty much makes the entirety of the quoted post so much worthless speculation. (implying it wasn't to begin with)
I'm not dignifying "offense has to run redundant soft checks to threats!" with a comment
Edit: To play devils advocate. The really metabreaking aspect of daunt is it's potential to overload with gatr/shark vs balance. So the question is really "Do well made focused midrange teams have to tools to manage daunt?". In my experience the answer is yes but it does polarize the meta more towards semi/Heavy BO at that particular tier.
These are some of the most irrelevant calcs I've seen in my life. The only thing these Tangrowth and Chesnaught calcs prove is that it's a bad idea to give Crawdaunt 3 free turns, but I hope everyone sees how meaningless that really is. I also fail to see how "punishing bad choices" is a pro-ban argument. Isn't that a good thing? august already covered this better than I can so I'm just gonna link his post again since I feel some people might have missed it.
If it isn't clear yet, I'm all for releasing Crawdaunt back into UU. I don't really have anything to add outside of those couple of small notes that haven't been mentioned yet. I feel like there are plenty of ways for every playstyle in UU to beat Crawdaunt. Crawdaunt itself can get around some of those depending on its 4th moveslot, but even then it remains a flawed mon between its low Speed and poor bulk. The only reasonable argument that I could think of to ban Crawdaunt is that it puts too much pressure on balanced teams, leading to a more polarized metagame with a clear divide between very offensive and very defensive teams. But after about 150 games on the suspect ladder, I personally don't think this is going to be a problem because the list of checks is big enough and many of these checks fulfill other useful roles (think of Hydreigon, Whimsicott, Toxicroak and so on).
The only reasonable argument that I could think of to ban Crawdaunt is that it puts too much pressure on balanced teams, leading to a more polarized metagame with a clear divide between very offensive and very defensive teams.
That's very true.
I don't think hard offense finds problems with Craudaunt and I think that stall will have to run Chestnaught + bulky water, which is limiting, but still a good answer in most cases(depending on the other threats, if they can abuse the holes crau made) even if the presence of Crau will make stall teams really passive.
The huge problem will be for balanced teams. Specially bulky balance. I don't see how double switching Craudaunt versus balance is difficult, many great balanced Pokemon are weak to it like Jellicent and Doublade and can get caught on the double by Craudaunt. Then you need a switch in on a very hard Knock Off or an Ice Beam or a Superpower. That's really huge pressure on balance and add to that the pressure that Mamoswine puts on balance that would really be huge for balance to handle.
First I would like to say that I second the points brought up by Lord Outrage in this post.
Crawdaunt's STAB Attacks - The standard STAB moves of Crawdaunt are Crabhammer, Knock Off, and Aqua Jet. Lets start this off with Crabhammer. I have yet to see anyone mention that Crabhammer has a 1 out of 8 chance to Critical Hit. This can be an extremely frustrating when your otherwise decent check to Crawdaunt can't work 12.5% of the time. A specific instance where a Crabhammer Critical Hit matters is when Hydreigon tries to switch in. Standard Hydreigon takes 74.4% to 87.6% from a Crabhammer Critical Hit. This allows a chance for an OHKO after SR or guaranteeing the Aqua Jet kill afterwards. Aside from Crabhammer, Knock Off is one of the best moves this generation and Crawdaunt has the strongest Knock Off in UU. Similar to Knock Off, Crawdaunt's Aqua Jet is among the strongest priority in UU.
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon on a critical hit: 242-285 (74.4 - 87.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 65-77 (20 - 23.6%)
Optimal Crawdaunt Use - The following is my opinion. Due to the fact that Crawdaunt is practically incapable of taking more than 1 neutral attack, I honestly feel that Crawdaunt teams without Volt-Turn will struggle to allow Crawdaunt to be effective against all play styles. I feel like 4 attack move LO Crawdaunt is the most effective set due to Crawdaunt receiving less opportunities to setup the more offensive a team is. I feel that teams like the following best allows Crawdaunt to shine.
The premise of this team is to pressure offensively with special attackers, lure in special walls for Crawdaunt to come in free, and weaken physical walls for a sweep with the one of the physical Water Pokémon.
Closing Statements - I feel that Crawdaunt's only real downside is it's general inability to come in without having to rely on Volt-Turn, double switches/opponent not attacking, or a teammate fainting. Like mentioned in Lord Outrage's post, the punishing nature of Crawdaunt to slower teams coupled with one of the strongest priority attacks in the tier makes efficient against all play styles on top of drastically limiting defensive options. As such I feel that Crawdaunt should remain banned.
I got reqs before posting in case something on the ladder would change my opinion but not so. Yes Crawdaunt is slow, but adamant/naive is still blatantly better in UU right now. Aside from all the points made about daunt rocking slow teams, you basically can't run megabee, nidos, darm, mamo, nape, etc against it. It's just bulky enough that it doesn't die to to things like mach punch or vacuum wave. Arguments against just being able to switch out are kind of nonsensical because no mon's pursuit is doing anything against it, and you have to be extremely brave to try to set up.
That being said, it's definitely not serp and won't be sweeping balance just from coming in on something like a blastoise. The lack of speed means that if your opponent predicts when you're bringing in daunt, its checks will almost always outspeed. Still, the fact that most people are bringing it in with volt-turn instead of switching it in makes it pretty dangerous. I don't think running defensive hydrei as a reliable check is "adapting." I've been running ice beam naive daunt. Mence just blatantly dies, and chesnaught gets 2hko'd every time: 0 SpA Life Orb Crawdaunt Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chesnaught: 195-231 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. It should also be said that when I BP into it with SD gligar, I have a chance to ohko Crocune...
In closing: I got reqs without crawdaunt. It's not completely gamebreaking, but multiple playstyles are very restricted and certain mons are becoming necessary to run similar to empoleon vs megabird. UU would still be playable if it stayed, but even some pro crawdaunt voters have admitted that it's slightly unhealthy in the UU room but they like how it plays. I personally don't want to see an iteration of the UU meta where balance and bulky offense don't exist without specifically running one of maybe 4 defensive mons specifically for daunt on every time. When the voting thread goes up, I'm going to have to vote keep BL.
I've mostly been avoiding this thread since it turned into kind of a crapshow and hasn't seemed to do anything productive, but there is one point that has been bugging me.
Having to run counters to a 'mon does not necessarily mean that a 'mon is "overcentralizing." The only way that would be overcentralizing would be if the counters were themselves non-viable or if they had little to no utility outside of countering Crawdaunt. If every offensive team just straight up lost against Crawdaunt unless it used a momentum-sink like Chesnaught, then maybe I'd agree that Crawdaunt was problematic... but luckily there are a variety of answers to the Crab, both soft and hard, meaning that pretty much every playstyle has ways of handling it.
Regarding the "oh but Crawdaunt can switch out" argument... the problem is that Crawdaunt is a 'mon with no defensive utility, and switching out yields a ton of momentum against an offensive team. This is especially true with many of the "softer" answers to Crawdaunt, like Hydreigon, Salamence, Heliolisk, Rotom-C or Toxicroak, who all have ways of punishing switches either through set-up, momentum-gaining moves like U-turn and Volt Switch, or simply being next to impossible to switch into safely.
Finally, regarding Crawdaunt and stall, stall is a fundamentally reactive playstyle. It is incredibly dependent upon the metagame, and always has to change things up based on new drops and current trends. That's a good thing, by the way - I've played in metagames where stall was able to almost perfectly wall everything with just 6 'mons, such as Advance UU before Lapras and Hariyama were banned. It's not pretty. I'm primarily a semi-stall player, and I'm not worried at all about Crawdaunt's presence. It will adjust. It has already adjusted, from what I have seen. That's what it does.
Crawdaunt is a good 'mon. It's good at what it does. It can break holes in opposing teams, and if it remains in the tier, it is something that absolutely should be accounted for during teambuilding. However, in practice I find it less terrifying than a number of other 'mons that have well-deserved places in UU, things like Hydreigon or Salamence.
Crawdaunt unlike other stall breakers like Banded Heracross or Calm Mind Chandelure is really helpful versus HO since he has a very strong priority in Aqua Jet that can kill or severely damage Mega Beedrill, Mienshao, Aerodactyle, and others.
This is the point i am most concerned about. When something can destroy balanced cores with its dual STAB, boost its power while not being a liability against faster enemies it crosses the edge. For instance, SD Pangoro can do former two however fails to perform the latter. It'll be vulnerable anything passes 236 speed which makes it easier to check. Dragalge and Nidoqueen are two fearsome wallbreakers who can wreck most things with their STABs alone. Quite frankly, there are immunities to their both STABs. Indeed, if you mispredict you may lose a trooper but at least you have some chance to avoid crisis for the time being. While facing Crawdaunt, you will always take a hard blow. Add that the risk of losing your item, it'll be harder to handle it in the long run.
Let's move to another example, Heracross is a fearsome wallbreaker who posseses 120 dual bp STABs. Unfortunately for it, both bug and fighting moves can(not) hit the same types. Finding a pokemon which resist both of its STABs or quad resist at least one of them is not that hard. You can't say the same for Crawdaunt. The fact that dark and water moves hit from two very different angles allows Crawdaunt to do its job easier. Imagine you're a goalkeeper who needs to defend two goals simultaneously. If both goals are next to each other (Bug and Fighting) you can move between and protect both. But if they are located opposite to each other (water and dark) you can't cover them both. What can handle water dislikes taking dark hits and vice versa. When you are facing Crawdaunt you don't just ask the question "will it click its STAB or coverage move", you ask "will it click its first STAB, secondary STAB or coverage move." Only Chesnaught and Whimsicott has the typing that resist both water and dark in UU (Toxicroak gets away with its ability and Sharpedo has the same typing meaning it gets walled as well).
Another way of dealing with physical attackers is burning them which can only be applied reliable is will-o-wisp and scald. Former is exclusive to fire and ghost types and the latter is resisted and not guaranteed. If you try to stay in to go for the burn, it is likely that you'll lose a mon. Some people think Crawdunt is not an issue because it usually can't get more than one kill. This is true but it has never been meant to sweep a team in the first place. Its duty is to break down one crucial link of a chain to make the life of a teammate easier. Once it gets a kill, it accomplishes its job. This can be applied to all wallbreakers however I am not proposing to ban all of them. Just trying to point out that Crawdaunt can do this significantly better than the others while still applying last ditch damage to something before going rip. Its bulk might be poor but it has a nice typing that makes it harder to handle compared to other frail wallbreakers. (Not weak to rocks; resists pursuit, aqua jet, ice shard and sucker punch.)
Pokemon is not serious enough for me to give it more priority than irl, grind, contribute to tiering while destroying friendships in the process by telling each other why we are right arguing. I'll adapt to the outcome no matter what and keep playing as much as i can. Screw you guys imo for making me write an essay at 3 am when i need to attend school the next day.
some people are missing the point so unfortunately here I go:
The main problem I see with a lot of posts, and what YABO's post was mocking, is that a lot of things that are being said about Crawdaunt can be said for a lot of other mons. I don't think Crawdaunt and Zangoose are directly comparable, but by a lot of the posts in this thread Zangoose would be broken too. In fact, that's true for a lot of mons. Hydreigon can 6-0 a defensive team without Blissey, Florges, or Umbreon. Even then, it can run coverage options that allow it to get past these mons. However, I have literally never once heard that people think Hydreigon is broken.
The reason probably is, Hydreigon's answers are staples on stall. Hydreigon has been around forever, so obviously teams are going to prepare for it. Now dropping Crawdaunt in, and having to prepare for it? Obviously, it is going to force teams to adapt. Hogg's post deals with this nicely.
Crawdaunt having incredible damage output doesn't make it broken. That makes it a good mon. If Crawdaunt didn't have insane damage output there would be literally no reason to use it since it is slow and frail. I touched on it in my post earlier about how I think Crawdaunt actually rewards good play because it has such high risk vs. reward.
If Crawdaunt is to be banned because of how it fares versus stall, it's not going to be because of how hard it hits or how good its STABs are. That's not unique to Crawdaunt in the slightest. It would have to be because it leaves no counter-measures for stall. Zangoose is fairly easy to check and gets worn down very quickly by toxic, so stall might have to lose a mon but can stall it out. Crawdaunt is very slow and frail, so while it may get a kill in the course of a match, it's never going to overwhelm a team to the point where it leaves no countermeasure either.
EDIT: YABO's post was deleted, in it he essentially compared a lot of the pro-ban arguments for Crawdaunt to Zangoose (satirically).
If I understood the example correctly, Yabo was trying to demonstrate an example of confirmation bias, tying into the notion that many (but not all) of the pro-ban posts have heavily relied on this rhetorical method of explicating information. This is also true of some of the con-ban posts, however, to a far lesser extent.
I don't say this because I want to put anyone down, nor am I saying this because I think I'm on some podium, so please take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt:
We have higher expectations out of the discussions that come out of this thread.
If you're rehashing, don't.
If you're troping, don't..
If you're meming, I'll infract you.
The onus is on you. Don't blame us because you're refusing to follow the guidelines laid out. We've laid out the standards a dozen times in this thread. Your post must include relevant information as it relates to the UnderUsed tier.
For example, a pro-ban argument could discuss focus on set versatility; it may be easier to build around Crawdaunt, but perhaps it's simply too unpredictable to formulate sustainable, high level play, and at times the sheer versatility of the CB, SD, DD, and Sash sets are difficult to work around. Even Splash Plate Daunt is extremely effective, so perhaps it is THESE elements that put pressure on UU teambuilding. But points alone are not sufficient. You must include:
replays, GOOD ONES, that demonstrate the extent of your claims in an applied environment. If your replays are against Charizard9000, I will delete and infract your post.
calculations over sets and Pokemon that will more likely than not be affluent in the UU metagame. If your calculations are with an itemless Tangrowth, I will delete and infract your post.
ANALYTIC ARGUMENTS THAT REST ON PROPER INDUCTIVE CLAIMS, SUPPORTED BY THE ABOVE, MUST BE INCLUDED. Otherise, I will delete and infract your post.
I implore all of you to please be critical and aware of your own biases. Together, we can improve the quality of analyses entered in this thread. You owe it to yourselves to offer the best perspective you can; we all love UU, we all just want what's best for the tier. Fine, I can accept that, but not at the expense of critical analysis. It is my sincere hope that the masses will recognize this post for what it is: an attempt to open the eyes of some of the users that repeatedly find their opinions slammed by the council. We don't enjoy infracting you, seriously, please take this with the consideration it's due.
Happy monday to everyone, let's get through this week so that we can party again.
The problem with letting Crawdaunt into the tier is that you're setting free what is going to be undoubtedly the best wallbreaker in the tier by far. The effect that this crab will be leaving on everything other than offensive teams is immense. Reason being that anytime Crawdaunt comes in on something passive or slower than it and without an appropriate priority move, it is going to either deal severe damage, take a life, or force a 50/50 due to its ability to set up and raise hell. For those who are taking these 50/50 situations lightly, I strongly urge you to reconsider. Predictions may be part of the game but the amount of pressure placed on them by Crawdaunt is simply unhealthy. Many people who are anti-ban are giving this issue a whole different meaning when they say things like "Crawdaunt punishes bad choices, how is that a bad thing?" This is a very poor effort in trying to rephrase the problem to your advantage. Crawdaunt doesn't punish bad choices because you can't call something a bad choice when it comes to guessing. You either made the right guess and saved yourself or made the wrong one and got screwed. This is going to be a frequent problem even on offensive teams. For instance, do I switch out of my Mega Beedrill/Mega Aerodactyl and into my Heliolisk/Toxicroak/Salamence on the Aqua Jet? I could, but there's the 50% chance that I get demolished by a Knock Off. There's just going to be way too much safe play taken away by the addition of this thing into the tier, which again, is unhealthy. All of this being a problem because of Crawdaunt's sheer power, which no other mons rival.
Its sheer power and ability is also the reason why it's far different from any other wallbreaker allowed in this tier. I was hoping we wouldn't get to the point of introducing pretty irrelevant comparisons in Zangoose and the likes. Firstly, Zangoose is NU, while Crawdaunt would probably not be below A+ rank if unbanned. Even under the assumption that Zangoose is as good as Crawdaunt, the fact that it is NU alone hinders it. This is because people are way less likely to use mons that aren't relevant in the tier. The same concept applies against those examples of sets like CB Salamence, Focus Blast Toxicroak, and so on (these sets just aren't viable). That aside, on to why Zangoose and any other wall breakers actually aren't as effective as Crawdaunt would be. Well, in Zangoose's case, he isn't as threatening by means of immediate damage due to needing a turn for Toxic Orb, stalls himself out because of toxic being needed for his power, is much more limited in how many turns he can stay in at once, and just still doesn't have the same sheer strength as Crawdaunt even after his boosts. Not to mention other issues such as lack of resistances. Similar situations apply to many other wallbreakers as well. Emboar could be pretty great, except that it kills itself with recoil (even more so if using LO) and is highly limited because of it most likely running a Choice Band (choice items are very limiting for obvious reasons). Pangoro just doesn't have the same power. Infernape is getting walled by something regardless of its moves or SD/NP. And the list goes on, because no wallbreaker allowed in UU is as blessed as Crawdaunt.
I'm going to stay consistent with a set of Crabhammer/Knock Off/Aerial Ace/SD. The reason I believe this set could potentially be a thing is because Crawdaunt will function best against teams with any sort of passiveness, and so it would most likely put in a lot of work any time you run into a non-Hyper Offense team (though it may come down to 50/50s). With that said, there isn't really a need for Sludge Wave or Ice Beam. This set allows Crawdaunt to obliterate any and all defense after the very little prior damage needed on mons such as physically defensive MAmpharos, Tangrowth and MAggron. Anything that is relevant dies to a +2 Crawdaunt after rocks and a layer of spikes. The same couldn't be said about other mons with one particular set because nothing compares with Crawdaunt's power. Feraligatr wouldn't be able to use a similar set because it actually has counters. As opposed to what some have been saying, Feraligatr and Mega Sharpedo counters are not Crawdaunt counters.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 211-248 (52.2 - 61.3%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Superpower vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 266-315 (50.2 - 59.5%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Superpower vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 209-246 (60.7 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 372-439 (92 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 473-559 (89.4 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Mega Aggron: 252-299 (73.2 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Fat Mence seems like the only reliable switch in to this set that wouldn't be extremely threatened by the damage it could take if Crawdaunt didn't SD. However, in the case that Crawdaunt did SD, unless Fat Mence compensated its item/bulk for power, it is not going to kill a healthy Crawdaunt before dropping to a +2 Knock Off
0 SpA Salamence Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 160-190 (59.7 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Salamence: 361-426 (91.8 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Though running sets similar to itemless Tangrowth may work, as jjoshcja pointed out, it seems like it would be a stretch. Modifying a mon or two on my team for Crawdaunt, in exchange for taking a pretty big blow against everything that's not Crawdaunt, doesn't sound too appealing to me. We all know how big of a difference lefties make in general, but hey, I guess that is for stall players to decide. Regardless, doesn't making your team a lot more susceptible to mons other than Crawdaunt in order to prepare for it show how much of an impact it will have?
Also, I am not "just assuming perfect situations". Crawdaunt has the immediate power to force way too many match ups into a 50/50 situation when it comes to setting up. It also has a resistance to six very common typings in UU, as well as an immunity (Not as common, but still helpful nonetheless). Overall, the odds of Crawdaunt finding the chance to set up and deal damage against Balance and Stall are actually pretty good.
Also, to address its use against offense, this thing does have a DD set that hasn't been given too much thought. A DD for Jolly Crawdaunt puts it at just enough to outspeed the 105 speed tier while also still being able to mash a ton of offensive threats. Though this isn't amazing by any means, it is still pretty decent and worth noting. It factors in well with how Choice Scarf users have been on the decline. If given the opportunity to set up on a reasonable resisted attack, this thing is capable of blowing past a lot of offensive teams. Might be just me personally, but I was more afraid of the DD set while I was getting my reqs with an offensive team.
All together, I strongly believe Crawdaunt would be too dangerous of an addition to the tier and puts a severe strain against balance, and especially stall. I am not a stall player and definitely do not support the playstyle, but I find it very unhealthy to put such a strain on defensive cores. I'll be voting towards Banning Crawdaunt.
I think that this now semantical based nitpicking is dumb. For one, I don't know how one can explain the point of "this mon is unhealty bc the mons that I turn to take care of it barely can" without bringing up calcs. Craw strains teambuilding with its wallbreaking and lesser sweeping ability because it kills or 2hkos everything that isnt a check. And if youre using the right set (not SD or DD, but 4 attacks to nab checks) youre killing the checks as well. All this on top of having a 80 bp priority move. To beat Crawdaunt in 9/10 situations need to have a defensive and offensive check. That takes 2 mons, in a 6v6 game thats not ok for me.
For two, why does the certain balance of stats placed by design become apart of peoples arguments? Crawdaunt being "slow and frail" does not at all stopping it from doing its job as its apart of the mons nature. Craws powers or task it fufills has little to do with defense or speed. Its a mon that severely punishes team building that doesn't submit to it or players that dont make plays based of the paranoia of it.
Crawdaunt cant be classied the same as the Mamos Feras Mences bc they just arent as punishing as Daunt. The meta is already centralized on those mons, meaning teams are built either using them or preventing them from wrecking havoc. For all these mons a complex way of dealing with it is not needed like with Craw. With you need to outpredict or run a defensive AND offensive check to keep it at bay.
No Thank You
(Also i think that the onus being of pro ban to put up replays etc is not right. Idk how con ban confirmation bias is different or less prevalent that pro's. I actually think many get confused that a mon isnt broken by the fact they can deal with it with random mons or "good prediction" Without fail, every suspect test theres people that say I didn't have any problems with "x" mons bc I ran such and such therefore NO BAN. I agree that making uninformed and attempted manipulative posts trying to use buzz words or out context calcs is wrong, but all these requirements that are being put are unnecessary and legalistic.)
I think that this now semantical based nitpicking is dumb. For one, I don't know how one can explain the point of "this mon is unhealty bc the mons that I turn to take care of it barely can" without bringing up calcs. Craw strains teambuilding with its wallbreaking and lesser sweeping ability because it kills or 2hkos everything that isnt a check. And if youre using the right set (not SD or DD, but 4 attacks to nab checks) youre killing the checks as well. All this on top of having a 80 bp priority move. To beat Crawdaunt in 9/10 situations need to have a defensive and offensive check. That takes 2 mons, in a 6v6 game thats not ok for me.
How does that make Crawdaunt any different from any other quality wallbreaker out there? If it COULDN'T do that, Crawdaunt would be essentially unusable. Also, the 4 attacks set has a massive opportunity cost, as Swords Dance is one of the main reasons Crawdaunt is so dangerous in the first place. I'd only use Ice Beam / Aerial Ace / etc if my team significant benefitted from a check like Crawdaunt being lured and worn down. Sorry, but I'm not convinced that Crawdaunt goes above and beyond as a wallbreaker based on this paragraph.
For two, why does the certain balance of stats placed by design become apart of peoples arguments? Crawdaunt being "slow and frail" does not at all stopping it from doing its job as its apart of the mons nature. Craws powers or task it fufills has little to do with defense or speed. Its a mon that severely punishes team building that doesn't submit to it or players that dont make plays based of the paranoia of it.
Crawdaunt being slow and frail doesn't necessarily stop it from doing its job (although the lack of speed can certainly adversely affect it vs. specific offensive builds). They are, however, notable weaknesses, especially in conjunction with its poor defensive typing. Crawdaunt is a Pokemon that a vast majority of the offensive Pokemon in the tier (as well as a fair number of defensive Pokemon, such as Tangrowth and Aromatisse) can threaten with an OHKO. This limits Crawdaunt's switchin opportunities and punishes the Crawdaunt user for mispredicting. Yes, the bevy Volt Switch and U-turn help with this, but only so much.
Crawdaunt cant be classied the same as the Mamos Feras Mences bc they just arent as punishing as Daunt. The meta is already centralized on those mons, meaning teams are built either using them or preventing them from wrecking havoc and for all these mons a complex way of dealing with it is not needed like with Craw. With you need to outpredict or run a defensive AND offensive check to keep it at bay.
Eh, if you're not running a defensive and offensive check to something like LO Mamoswine, chances are it's going to have an extremely favorable match-up in its own right. Also, why can't the metagame potentially become centralized around Crawdaunt in the long-term as well?
I'm not a regular UU player, and dont think I have any huge biases, but is the strain Crawdaunt provokes on teambuilding, coupled with the strain already on it due to the really powerful breakers in the tier (mamo, mence, ape all come to mind) not overly restricting on teambuilding for slower, more defensive styles? If you need to pack 2 checks to each of these, oops there's your team, gl dealing with everything else relevant. Also in terms of Opportunity Cost, something I personally weight heavily on my decisions when it comes to tiering, Crawdaunt is a relatively low risk pokemon. It exerts a huge amount of pressure onto almost all defensive builds, and has very few drawbacks to hinder its usage as a fantastic breaker. Obviously this is the case, given its suspected to come down, but I am not convinced that the opportunity cost to running Crawdaunt is high enough to warrant its reintroduction to the tier. Its weaknesses are fairly easy to patch up and its so good at what it does there doesn't appear to be much of a reason to not run it.
idk I'm rambling, and despite what I said its not like daunt is the perfect pokemon by any means. I'm just concerned it might be too much of a strain on teambuilding in conjunction to other massively threatening wallbreakers.
Sweep
With the 4 attacks vs SD argument, I think its worth pointing out how many people have talked about how hard it is to set up with Craw, and its true. Thats the reason why it actually isnt a viable as 4 attacks. With 4 attacks you get to cash in on the fact a player is more than likely on his heels and will play into your hands if you get craw in safely. Also the premier wallbreakers in the tier are not as strong as Craw and cannot clean teams like Craw. Only Mamo is close to this but it doesnt hit as hard and has agrueably worse STABs (this is most due to Craw STAB Knock Off) If you dont outspeed Craw or are not one of the mons that are said to be its counter you are more than likely going to lose to it 1v1.
Tangrowth and Aroma are subject to getting 2hko on switch in. The issue with both of those mons you mention is that they barely have any upside with the momentum you get from them. Having to rely on complete momentum sucks or prediction to deal with a mons is not a good sign.
Mamo's offensive and defensive checks already fit into the metas form. Me saying this can make it seem like Im against meta shift, but thats not true. The fact is that Craw warrants way more to qualify something as a check and punishes much harder if that isnt met.
I've played a fair amount of games in the uu crawdaunt suspect and i think that crawdaunt is a bit too overpowered for the current meta. Sure noone can deny that crawdaunt has its fair share of counters in the tier (aka chesnaught, toxicroak, heliolisk, any dragon that outspeeds it, nasty plot lucario) and hence it is very difficult for it to flat out sweep teams. However, imo, crawdaunt is broken because even tho the above mons are reliable counters,besides croak and chesnaught-bar no ice beam-(which i have seen), none of them are switchins. Crawdaunt's true role in the current meta is to punch holes in the opponent's team, force them to sac mons and then make it near impossible for them to bounce back and win the game. Another fair point is that crawdaunt requires special teambuilding preparation(now i am well aware that the same goes for mamo, but at least mamo doesnt have stat boosting moves). Personally, teams that i had success using are now useless because they get 6-0ed by crawdaunt at +2. Finally the last thing i wana point out (and it pretty much sums up all the above points i made) is that i don't see why a mon belongs in a tier, where each time it switches in kills something on the opponent's team(which is exactly what happens with a well-played crawdaunt).
An answer to Crawdaunt that I think has been overlooked slightly is Mega Ampharos. While some of its sets can only handle Crawdaunt under certain circumstances like switching in on a resisted hit or hazards being absent~
AOA Mega Ampharos:
- 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 129-152 (36.4 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 169-200 (47.7 - 56.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
- 0 SpA Life Orb Crawdaunt Ice Beam vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Mega Ampharos: 143-169 (40.3 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- 252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0- SpD Crawdaunt: 542-638 (202.2 - 238%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Agility Mega Ampharos:
- 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 129-152 (39.2 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 169-200 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 0 SpA Life Orb Crawdaunt Ice Beam vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Mega Ampharos: 143-169 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO
- 252 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0- SpD Crawdaunt: 632-746 (235.8 - 278.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
~its physically defensive set is a fantastic stop to it~
Physically Defensive Mega Ampharos:
- 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 95-112 (24.7 - 29.1%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO
- 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 122-146 (31.7 - 38%) -- 91.7% chance to 3HKO
- 0 SpA Life Orb Crawdaunt Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Ampharos: 143-169 (37.2 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- +2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 187-221 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO
- +2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 244-289 (63.5 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 133-159 (34.6 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- 4 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0- SpD Crawdaunt: 422-498 (157.4 - 185.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 4 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 378-446 (141 - 166.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
~with only Adamant Choice Band having a chance to 2HKO before Amp has a chance to attack.
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 154-182 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I've used it on the ladder and it's also a great Entei check, among other things, so it's not just a bullshit set coming out of the woodwork to stop Crawdaunt. At least in my opinion.
I think that the problem with Crawdaunt it's that it's rather unpredictable in the end. Even if the most current set are : the LO SD, the CB (maybe the DD, I'm not sure of this..), this thing can lure a lot of Pokemon in UnderUsed. Ice Beam / Sludge Wave are just insane if you don't anticipate them :
• 4 SpA Life Orb Crawdaunt Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Whimsicott: 411-489 (127.2 - 151.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• 4 SpA Life Orb Crawdaunt Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Whimsicott: 195-231 (60.3 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Even the SpD Whimsicott don't like a lot this moves : 41.7 - 49.8% for Ice Beam / 88.5 - 104.6% for Sludge Wave).
• 4 SpA Life Orb Crawdaunt Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chesnaught: 195-231 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 4 SpA Life Orb Crawdaunt Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chesnaught: 205-244 (53.9 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
SpD Chesnaught is not played at all so i will not speak about this spread...
After that you can find Aerial Ace Crawdaunt who just rekt Chesnaught (and Whimsi to a lesser extent..).
If you want to not be rekt by this Pokemon you need to have something to check or counter him... by being objective and sincere, there is somebody here who just build a team during the suspect without adding something to counter Crawdaunt. So yes, with that in mind, Crawdaunt he's not a problem if all players put a Whimsi, a Chesnaught, a Cobalium and a FatMence in their team. If you are in the other case and build a "normal team" to see if Crawdaunt is a real threat in UU, you can confirm that this thing is just broken.
We are not here to compair if Crawdaunt is more broken than an other 'mon in UU, we're here to debate if in the actual metagame it's not OP. Because with this consideration, BL's Pokemon are not a problem because you can find in UU some Pokemon who are better on certain points.
Ironic : "Hawlucha is weaker than Machamp look at his attack, why isn't UU then ?" ... Because of SD, Unberden etc.. It's the same thing for Crawdaunt, why it's not actually UU ? Because he hurts like a monster and can be better with SD, DD etc.. If Mamoswine could learn SD, do you really think he will be in UU ? I don't think so...
Conclusion : The problem of Crawdaunt is it's power and its possibility of adapting itself to his check and counters in UU. This Pokemon can easily beats them just by having a different attack. As long as you don't know his entire 4 attacks, object etc.. you can throw a Pokemon safely on this thing.. That's all for me.. With my most of 120 matches in the actual Suspect, I'm sur of that : I will vote "do not unban Crawdaunt" !
PS : Sorry in advance if my english is not perfect..
A lot of people are arguing about Crawdaunt's effectiveness vs defensive teams while I'm ready to bet they haven't even tried to use a defensive team. As someone who got reqs using stall (and got to 5th on ladder) I think I know what I'm saying when I say that Crawdaunt isn't half as limiting as many other wallbreakers such as Hydreigon, Infernape, Mence, Chandelure, Lucario, or even mixed Nidoking, for stall. Why do I say that? Because to check Crawdaunt you are forced to run a bulky water type + Chesnaught,Tangrowth,Mence core, a core that's already pretty mandatory on stall considering how effective mons like Chesnaught, Alomomola and Mence are in checking physical threats.
The only points that pro-bans brought up that I agree with are that:
a) Crawdaunt has a crazy damage output and good match up vs balance
b) it has a good priority that help it not be the liability vs offense it would otherwise be because of its horrible speed and bulk.
But these two points are just what make Daunt Viable and an effective mon in general, they don't make it broken in any way. If not for these two traits, I would use mega sharpedo over it 100% of the time.
After playing some game on the suspect ladder, i've seen Crawdaunt is a huge threat if you have the possibility to remove these checks and counters. But as i've seen, Crawdaunt is the kind of mons who need 5 moves slots. If you need cash power, you have to run Sword Dance, but being wall by Chesnaught (and Whimsicott, but he had some trouble to take two hit), if you want more speed, you run Dragon Dance, but you lost some power (at least Crawdaunt need to set up 2 Dragon Dance to outspeed things like Aerodactyl-mega, it's not easy with his mediocre bulk) and your also wall by Chesnaught. If you want to hit Chesnaught & cie, you have to run Aerial Ace/Sludge Wave/Ice Beam, yea it's cool, but you become less dangerous for the stall/semi-stall. I agree Crawdaunt have a good match up against a lot of balanced, but there are some things who can help to deal with him and works well on balanced, such as Tangrowth, Suicune & cie. I play more Offense/Bulky Offense, so my opinion can be false, but it's what i've seen on the ladder.
it's like all threats if you don't run a check it's just an analrape. I take the example of Entei, if you have nothing to take theses hit, you just loose. After, i agree Crawdaunt had a few switch-ins, but the best way to deal with him in my opinion, it's to have the possibility to scout is 4th slot, also there are a lot of things who can revenge kill him pretty easily due to his lack of speed and his bulk who is honestly really bad.
after (finally) getting reqs, I'm still not sure as to if it should be banned or not.
yes it is strong as fuck, can get rid of checks and counter by aggresive prediction and pressuring bulkier teams, but that works way less often in reality than you would expect. in reality it's checked pretty easy by recovery mons like Salamence, Hydreigon, Colbur mons, and bulky waters.
on the other hand, its still a very big threat that you have to keep in mind when playing. you cannot sack X mon, because else Crawdaunt just runs over your team.
if you say 'well, you should have more than 1 thing to stop Crawdaunt', it means its kinda too threatening.
so im really not sure tho. ive played over 200 games but i think i'll get my mind cleared once alt-registration posts go up.
