np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

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Terakion is pretty much just an example.
Like I said,a lot of Fighting types with a Balloon can counter them.
Speaking of terakion nothing about it's tiering but the thing is a monster, hits like two trucks full of fat people.

Exegcuttor ban worthy? Yeah right harvest isn't that good, worst I heard was a PP stall.
 
I couldn't even make a team this afternoon without constantly erasing it and starting over, all because Weather would destroy it. Prepare your team for Rain and Sand, get your ass reamed by Sand and Hail, and vice versa, you can mix and match up respective Weathers because it doesn't really matter which ones. I had to look for a decent Pokemon that could use Hail.

I had to fucking use HAIL to stop Weather. A move that does absolute-fuck-nothing against another Weather, and if I'm not facing Weather, is complete dead-weight.

Not even aiming for 1500, because the entire meta-game is just Weather, who manages their Weather better, and who keeps their Politoeds and Tyranitars alive longer. I hope all the people that ARE allowed voting rights make the right decision and remove Drizzle from the OU meta-game.
 
(b) We don't want to totally destroy rain dance. I think that would be a severe overreaction. Contrary to popular belief, we actually want rain teams to stick around- metagame diversity and only banning things if completely necessary are two concepts I fully subscribe to. If we ban drizzle, rain teams will still be around- but if we ban random pokemon/abilities, we have totally eliminated a playstyle that could have become balanaced if we just nerfed it a little.
If we ban Kingdra, Ludicolo, and/or Kabutops, there are still plenty of rain abusers to choose from. The special side still remains numerous, while it still has Toxicroak for physical coverage.

(c) Kingdra, Ludicolo and Kabutops are not Ubers by nature. Swift Swim is not a uber ability. I know this is a weird argument but I'm just going to say what we're all thinking. Nearly nothing has changed for these Pokemon over their existence- not once did we consider banning them in previous generations, and they haven't received any notable buffs this generation. So, logically, we must ask ourselves, "What has changed about these Pokemon from gen 4 to gen 5?" Obviously this is drizzle. These Pokemon are simply not broken on rain DANCE teams, and only on drizzle teams are they really that bad. I think it would be fucked up to look at our banlist and see some UU Pokemon last generation on it, despite the fact that they 0 new things to work with. This could be easily avoided by simply banning drizzle.
The environment around the 3 has changed. Furthermore, we don't care about how they were before in the, as far as we care, unrelated 4th gen. The fact that these Pokemon WERE UU and that they GAINED nothing new means nothing in the 5th gen.

(d) None of these pokemon are brokemon without drizzle. Extension of previous argument, but something I want to closely address. These guys aren't exactly one-trick ponies, and they have several uses on teams without rain, all of which they fulfuill to a non-Uber degree. To ban these Pokemon due to a field effect is silly. It would be like, if we got an auto-trick roomer, to ban Clamperl and Marowak instead of trick room.

I'm honestly curious why some people seem to think that banning a myriad of rain aspects is better than just banning drizzle.
Wobba wouldn't be broken without a set-up sweeper to take advantage of. Dory wouldn't be suspect without Sand Stream.

We don't care if the pokemon changed or if the environment changed; we don't restrict the environment around the pokemon if the pokemon is too OP with it; we ban the pokemon instead.

If Kingdra and co were UU in 4th gen, and (hypothetically) Uber in 5th gen, you don't try to make a 4.5 gen to balance them, you ban the pokemon because NOW they are broken in the environment around them.
 

TheValkyries

proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
But while you claim I missed your point, you also miss mine. And you conveniently bring up a Ho-oh scenario for me to use.

When rain goes down (SR is off), you have the chance to bring out that broken sweeper (Ho-Oh) in and the rain team can lose right there. If rain is always up (hypothetically if SR is always up), then you remove that other threat completely. Having it always up removes a whole possible way to lose. <-- That's my main point!!
So what you're saying is that a broken sweeper being broken means that we shouldn't ban it? Wait, what exactly are you trying to say here? I'm honestly confused. I never denied that these things are broken in infinite rain, I'm arguing that they're still broken in 8-turn rain. Yes, one is OBVIOUSLY worse than the other, but forcing the use of the gimped version doesn't stop them from being broken.

It also appears as if you confused the analogy. So let me re-outline it. SR acts only as a CHECK to Ho-oh, it doesn't stop him from being broken. Forcing rain to be 8-turns only CHECKS the broken Swift Swimmers, but doesn't stop them from being broken. Banning Drizzle is like making a clause that SR should always be on the field so that Ho-oh isn't too overwhelming. It just doesn't make sense. We should be banning things that are broken, and nothing else.
 
I couldn't even make a team this afternoon without constantly erasing it and starting over, all because Weather would destroy it. Prepare your team for Rain and Sand, get your ass reamed by Sand and Hail, and vice versa, you can mix and match up respective Weathers because it doesn't really matter which ones. I had to look for a decent Pokemon that could use Hail.

I had to fucking use HAIL to stop Weather. A move that does absolute-fuck-nothing against another Weather, and if I'm not facing Weather, is complete dead-weight.

Not even aiming for 1500, because the entire meta-game is just Weather, who manages their Weather better, and who keeps their Politoeds and Tyranitars alive longer. I hope all the people that ARE allowed voting rights make the right decision and remove Drizzle from the OU meta-game.
Then get some trick room, oh and I don't mean a full TR focused team either, you don't need that.
In the last two/three days I've seen various teams, including non weather teams that hold their own.
I've seen sand teams with trick room too, teams that work in the meta, hail is not your only option.
 
So what you're saying is that a broken sweeper being broken means that we shouldn't ban it? Wait, what exactly are you trying to say here? I'm honestly confused. I never denied that these things are broken in infinite rain, I'm arguing that they're still broken in 8-turn rain. Yes, one is OBVIOUSLY worse than the other, but forcing the use of the gimped version doesn't stop them from being broken.

It also appears as if you confused the analogy. So let me re-outline it. SR acts only as a CHECK to Ho-oh, it doesn't stop him from being broken. Forcing rain to be 8-turns only CHECKS the broken Swift Swimmers, but doesn't stop them from being broken. Banning Drizzle is like making a clause that SR should always be on the field so that Ho-oh isn't too overwhelming. It just doesn't make sense. We should be banning things that are broken, and nothing else.
Clearly SSers in 8-turn rain aren't broken, cuz they have been around all of 4th gen and possibly before
 
A real math major would know that it's pointless to claim to be a math major to justify calculations...

Also, to put numbers onto the Deoxys comparisons (because I've read way too much of the other stuff and I don't know what to say about it anymore), Normal has 87% of Attack's power (comparison: if A can beat [opponent] without SR, N likely can with it) and 79% more bulk. Normal being banned was kind of suspect (no pun intended) to me, too, but I can see why people did it.
While that's true, the 79% more bulk means it's still koed my most attacks pokemon carry, it only helps resisting a breloom mach punch but then again there's SS and SR, it's still virtually koed by any attack it takes.

I don't want to force an opinion, I just want to say it's not harmful to bring it down for one round of testing, especially since it's never been a threat.
 
I couldn't even make a team this afternoon without constantly erasing it and starting over, all because Weather would destroy it. Prepare your team for Rain and Sand, get your ass reamed by Sand and Hail, and vice versa, you can mix and match up respective Weathers because it doesn't really matter which ones. I had to look for a decent Pokemon that could use Hail.

I had to fucking use HAIL to stop Weather. A move that does absolute-fuck-nothing against another Weather, and if I'm not facing Weather, is complete dead-weight.

Not even aiming for 1500, because the entire meta-game is just Weather, who manages their Weather better, and who keeps their Politoeds and Tyranitars alive longer. I hope all the people that ARE allowed voting rights make the right decision and remove Drizzle from the OU meta-game.
sounds like you mad at all weather not just rain
 
If Kingdra and co were UU in 4th gen, and (hypothetically) Uber in 5th gen, you don't try to make a 4.5 gen to balance them, you ban the pokemon because NOW they are broken in the environment around them.
It's funny, "the environment around them" has only changed because of one Pokemon gaining one ability, that's hardly a massive shift in how the game works that we can't change. Where I come from, Politoed (and Ninetales and Doryuuzu) is already gone and no one is complaining. Seems a lot easier than suspect testing every Swift Swimmer, especially when even ones like Gorebyss and Qwilfish are dangerous when their more popular counterparts are taken away.

Last gen, Drizzle was broken and overcentralizing on even a level 1 Kyogre. Giving it to Politoed didn't change that, this is basically the same game, believe it or not.
 
I've found that I can't Swords Dance at all with my rain teams. Maybe that's just because I'm not really sure yet of what Kabutops can take, but...

Also, I REALLY know why people use Birijion so much now. It's like, hey, you're making it hard for me to get my rain sweepers in, but then out comes Birijion. Shrang's right; a lot of teams are hilariously weak against it.
 
Yeah birijions a bish good on all kinds of teams.

anyways trick roomers seem to be holding shit down if you know when to pop it.
TR ranku and TR burungeru can lead to some "oh shit" moments for sure if your playing weather.
 
Rain Offense could still be good with 8 turn rain, just as a counter to Sand, if nothing else. It is perma-rain that makes it OP. Banning drizzle won't remove any styles of play, banning SS will
Banning drizzle will remove play styles, and I said exactly which in my post you quoted. As a SS counter it will still exist with Rain Dance, but it becomes far less viable. Banning Swift Swim will kill Rain HO as we know it, whether a new type without SS is yet to be seen, but as a community we haven't liked Rain HO as it is so I don't see why the fight to preserve it.
 

TheValkyries

proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
Clearly SSers in 8-turn rain aren't broken, cuz they have been around all of 4th gen and possibly before
Then why are they broken now? What changed on that 9th turn that means they're broken? Nothing has, they're just piss-easier to use. Being hard to use doesn't mean they weren't broken.

Furthermore, what does 4th gen and before have to do with 5th gen? Skymin's ban in 4th gen was a controversy. This gen it was unanimous. Don't make assumptions because of previous generations.
 
I don't see how it makes sense to ban drizzle... but leave sandstream, drought and snow warning. weather teams are beaten by switching in another weather starter, easy.

also, unlike sandstorm and hail, most drizzle teams focus on swift swim... so trick-room teams tear it up.

Manaphy is sick in the rain, so ban it. drought isn't the broken element here.
 
Then why are they broken now? What changed on that 9th turn that means they're broken? Nothing has, they're just piss-easier to use. Being hard to use doesn't mean they weren't broken.
Maybe because those 8 turns can't be stalled out anymore.
Infinite rain means you can't stall it out. It's a never ending storm.
 
I don't see how it makes sense to ban drizzle... but leave sandstream, drought and snow warning. weather teams are beaten by switching in another weather starter, easy.

also, unlike sandstorm and hail, most drizzle teams focus on swift swim... so trick-room teams tear it up.

Manaphy is sick in the rain, so ban it. drought isn't the broken element here.
Because the only weather that's broken and over centralizing ATM is Rain.
Sand is manageable,Sun isn't hard to deal with,and Hail just sucks.

Trick Room is too gimmicky to rely on.

Manaphy < 3 Super sweepers

the combination of Boosted Speed + Boosted power is too much too handle.
The Swift Swimmers are basically Chlorophyll/Sand throw + Sand Power.
It's too much.
 

TheValkyries

proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
Maybe because those 8 turns can't be stalled out anymore.
Infinite rain means you can't stall it out. It's a never ending storm.
What are you gonna stall these Pokemon out with for 8 turns? Hasn't the majority of this thread been about how retardedly powerful they are in the Rain? Are you suddenly telling me they're not that overwhelming? Please tell us what Pokemon you have found that can halt a rain sweep in it's tracks for 8 turns.
 
What are you gonna stall these Pokemon out with for 8 turns? Hasn't the majority of this thread been about how retardedly powerful they are in the Rain? Are you suddenly telling me they're not that overwhelming? Please tell us what Pokemon you have found that can halt a rain sweep in it's tracks for 8 turns.
Well,there's always the fact that PROTECT exists. Which lowers the amount of time they have to sweep.
I think that's quite obvious.
Won't completely stop rain,but it gives you a CHANCE at winning.
Infinite rain ruins that.
 
Because the only weather that's broken and over centralizing ATM is Rain.
Sand is manageable,Sun isn't hard to deal with,and Hail just sucks.

Trick Room is too gimmicky to rely on.

Manaphy < 3 Super sweepers

the combination of Boosted Speed + Boosted power is too much too handle.
The Swift Swimmers are basically Chlorophyll/Sand throw + Sand Power.
It's too much.
Trick room is hardly gimmicky in this metagame.
 
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