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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?
- Thread starter Philip7086
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Crits are way less than 30% chance and aren't always OHKOs. I don't feel OHKO moves are broken, I just see no reason to have them outside of allowing a noob to take out many of the pokes on your team with little to no prediction or skill. Anything with acceptable speed could just run scarf and have a 30% chance to take out at least 1/6 of your team. How is that something that should be in the meta?
No one uses Brightpowder. Therefore, it is not broken.
We have never tried OHKO moves in the 5th (or even 4th) gen metagames. You have no evidence they are broken. Only worthless theorymon.
And there is skill involved. You have to be prepared for the fact that 70% of the time you are giving your opponent a free turn. Quite possibly a free substitute as well. You are also giving up a more reliable coverage move that you could be using. The true skill in Pokemon is managing probabilities. A high-risk, high-reward move requires that skill more than anything.
But even if it didn't, not broken = no ban. If you want to say they're broken, either get some evidence that they dominate the metagame or get the fuck out.
I've encountered a few Drizzle teams, and I think that Drizzle Politoed needs to go. Go where? I don't care, just out of OU. Most Drizzle teams that I've seen have Jirachi, Kingdra, Politoed and Manaphy. Jirachi's Thunder becomes incredibly accurate, Kingdra is astonishingly fast and Manaphy is practically impossible to take down.
Getting rid of Drizzle on Politoed will allow Rain to still exist, but only for 8 turns at max. Then the player would need to switch in their Rain Dancer again and try to set it up again.
With permanent rain practically everyone will have to start carrying Tyranitar (weak to Water), Hippowdon (also weak to Water, and Ice), Abomasnow or Drought Ninetales (Water weakness as well, but sun would reduce their power) or some other, reliable, way to come in and set up weather. Or attempt to use the rain to their own advantage. But then the opponent can just switch Politoed back in and bring Drizzle back into play, or bring in one of their Pokemon to take down your own rain abuser. It's far too broken, considering all the Pokemon it affects. Dry Skin Parasect and Toxicroak will see much more use under rain, with Fire-typed moves being weakened too. Plus no one wants to switch in a Fire-type when the opponent can bring in their Kingdra for an instant kill.
Kingdra, Kabutops and the other Swift Swimmers become amazingly popular. Rain Dish Ludicolo becomes a huge pain and so on.
With ordinary rain, players can stall the weather out, attempt to KO the opponent's Rain Dancer, and then proceed to take out the rest of the team who now lack that rain support they all need so much.
Seriously, the metagame is going to be overrun by rain. It will end up even worse than Sandstorm was. But Sandstorm only provided evasion to a few Pokemon, and extra Special Defense to Rock-types who usually had such low Special Defense it didn't generally matter anyway.
That's just my two cents. This gen will be ruined by rain if this keeps up.
EDIT: I realise that I'm late to join the whole 'get rid of Drizzle/don't do it' discussion. But I couldn't resist typing something after finally getting to experience the 5th gen. I've been playing it for two days now, and managed to get up to 1500 at one point... I was happy with that, haha.
But on the new topic. OHKO moves just don't need to be a part of the metagame. They just have no point, because while they may have such a low chance of hitting most of the time you will just be giving the opponent a free turn, as Petrie said. I don't feel that they're broken, just completely pointless, and bring an extremely large amount of luck into the game. Why bother when you can try to take the opponent down with a much more reliable, but very powerful, move? Of course, Lock-On, Mind Reader and No Guard are all going to make OHKO moves broken.
Getting rid of Drizzle on Politoed will allow Rain to still exist, but only for 8 turns at max. Then the player would need to switch in their Rain Dancer again and try to set it up again.
With permanent rain practically everyone will have to start carrying Tyranitar (weak to Water), Hippowdon (also weak to Water, and Ice), Abomasnow or Drought Ninetales (Water weakness as well, but sun would reduce their power) or some other, reliable, way to come in and set up weather. Or attempt to use the rain to their own advantage. But then the opponent can just switch Politoed back in and bring Drizzle back into play, or bring in one of their Pokemon to take down your own rain abuser. It's far too broken, considering all the Pokemon it affects. Dry Skin Parasect and Toxicroak will see much more use under rain, with Fire-typed moves being weakened too. Plus no one wants to switch in a Fire-type when the opponent can bring in their Kingdra for an instant kill.
Kingdra, Kabutops and the other Swift Swimmers become amazingly popular. Rain Dish Ludicolo becomes a huge pain and so on.
With ordinary rain, players can stall the weather out, attempt to KO the opponent's Rain Dancer, and then proceed to take out the rest of the team who now lack that rain support they all need so much.
Seriously, the metagame is going to be overrun by rain. It will end up even worse than Sandstorm was. But Sandstorm only provided evasion to a few Pokemon, and extra Special Defense to Rock-types who usually had such low Special Defense it didn't generally matter anyway.
That's just my two cents. This gen will be ruined by rain if this keeps up.
EDIT: I realise that I'm late to join the whole 'get rid of Drizzle/don't do it' discussion. But I couldn't resist typing something after finally getting to experience the 5th gen. I've been playing it for two days now, and managed to get up to 1500 at one point... I was happy with that, haha.
But on the new topic. OHKO moves just don't need to be a part of the metagame. They just have no point, because while they may have such a low chance of hitting most of the time you will just be giving the opponent a free turn, as Petrie said. I don't feel that they're broken, just completely pointless, and bring an extremely large amount of luck into the game. Why bother when you can try to take the opponent down with a much more reliable, but very powerful, move? Of course, Lock-On, Mind Reader and No Guard are all going to make OHKO moves broken.
Things that aren't broken can also be banned. Having a relatively good chance to take out one or more pokes on an opponent's team blindly and without prediction is by no means a good situation. Read the Characteristics of a desirable metagame. OHKO moves bring an unnecessary amount of luck to the game if players choose to use hem, as well as a strategy that allows for potential wins without any prediction nor actual skill. I'm not saying the evasion items aren't broken because no one uses them, in fact, the opposite is true. People choose not to use them because a 10% chance to sometimes escape unscathed is outclassed in nearly every way by LO, choice items, or Lefties. The amount of luck required to succeed unfairly with them is so immense it is largely inconsequential. I appreciate the actual arguments that you are making. Thank you for that.
Wasn't the point of banning Evasion-boosting moves and OHKO moves to prevent their use because they unnecessarily create possibly-gamechanging luck when used? There's no real point to saying "well, 70% of the time it does nothing" when there's still a 30% chance of it doing something that turns the game around in the user's favor. Wasn't that why we banned Inconsistent as well (although maybe with a larger %chance of something happening)?
Lightning Tiger said:
My proposal is a two-step process - If we agree to go with it, then it is agreed upon that the second phase WILL take place if Perma-Rain passes Phase 1. We are not putting this up to faith of the people. Both phases are mandatory.
What will happen at the end of the first round of Suspect Test? The suspect voters would vote whether Drizzle was broken or not. If Drizzle was voted broken, then that's the end of the proposal.
If we voted Drizzle to be OU, then we enter Phase 2, which removes the ban on Swift Swim (and Hydration?) to test whether Rain HO can be regulated without the overpowered Weather Abusers .
As far as Aldaron's proposal go, I definitely believe it is better than banning Drizzle Politoed or blanket ban on abilities. It is by far the least restrictive of the available options. However, that is in the case Perma-Rain fails at Phase 2.
Banning 2 or 3 of the overpowered Weather abusers are better than Aldaron's proposal, I believe. It is unfair to limit the capacity of other perfectly viable Swift Swimmers (Floatzel and Gorebyss comes to mind) just to keep the weather abusers that are clearly broken by their own merit (typing, movepool, stat distribution). That is why I see fit that if we do not exceed the number (TBD) of Overpowered abusers in Phase 2 that we keep Swift Swim + Drizzle intact by banning the few culprits.
Again, how much we are willing to ban and who we ban is up for discussion. It's safe to say that Manaphy and Kingdra are broken under rain. We can limit the temporary ban to these two monsters and also put the cap to 2 monsters that can be allowed to be broken in a weather. So basically other Pokemon found to be broken on Phase 2 (ie Ludicolo) would result in Rain failing Phase 2, opening the avenue to Aldaron's proposal for those who support it.
I find this proposal to be very flexible, since none of the little details are set in stone. It's the process of analysis that I am proposing, because the community is currently divided as to what exactly needs to go.
Pocket, while I primarily agree with your proposal, I still have a qualm with the concept of a cap on how many broken abusers there can be, in that it can determine whether or not a weather/field condition passes or fails Phase 2. Phase 2 should have the option of being extended on the judgment of the suspect voters so that if we ban "x" abusers (where x is the arbitrary cap) and then feel that one (or another arbitrary cap) more Pokémon is broken after that, we can then ban it, and test it again. Otherwise, that single Pokémon could force us to move on to a ban that would otherwise be unnecessary.
Then why not start with aldarons, why does aldarons have to be the last resort?, it could be the first one done.
I would rather not allow Kingdra or Ludicolo or Kabutops to be used with Drizzle than to ban them, then you can still let those other pokes like Floatzel or whatever to be used with Drizzle if people want. And also people would still be able to use the those 3 (kingdra, or Kabutops or Ludicolo) on regular old rain dance teams.
You say its unfair to limit the capacity of Floatzel or whoever to keep those guys who are broken in drizzle. Well there you go, they are not broken with just rain dance, and floatzel and those other dudes can still benefit from drizzle.
No pokes need to be banned.
What did I just say about skill? Yes, once in a while you'll get lucky and blast away three of your opponent's Pokemon. Most of the time you have to deal with the fact that you've just wasted a bunch of turns. It requires skill to win consistently with them. And that is what matters.
40% of the time Hypnosis does nothing, while 60% of the time it renders an opposing Pokemon nearly useless. That 40% of the time is enough for people to consider it not worth it. So yes, it is perfectly valid to say "Well 70% of the time it does nothing" because that is, in fact, the downside of the move.
And finally, this silly idea of "unnecessary luck". Luck is a fundamental part of the game. A simple fact that people don't seem to want to accept. A good player makes his own luck, and denying him options for doing that simply because you don't like them is what is truly anti-competitive.
There is a difference between luck and uneccesary luck (ie. Evasion Clause). Also, Sleep is far different from OHKO, and many Politoeds and Ninetales run Hypnosis in any case. Taking out even 1 or 2 pokes with no skill is something that should not exist in an ideal meta. Try to refute that
Not at all. Especially when your opponent would be a Politoed locked into Hypnosis or a Ninetales, and sleep only lasting 3 turns means that you either wake up when they switch or the turn after
There is? Do inform me of this difference. I would so dearly like to hear it.
Politoed and Ninetales run it because they have to do something, and their movepools are actually that shallow. But at any rate, the point is that sleep is devastating to the slept Pokemon, but even a 40% chance of missing is enough to justify not using it. Now compare that to the OHKO's 70% chance of missing.
And, as mentioned, it takes skill to win consistently with OHKOs. And winning consistently is what actually matters, not a single game.
Alternatively you could be killed by then because having to switch your Pokemon out automatically means their sleep counter is reset, meaning either you stay in and wake up, or risk being set up on by another Pokemon (which would force you to switch).
OH noez! The potential to be set up on for one turn!
Mind Reader Sheer Cold Articuno and Lock On / Fissure / Sheer Cold / Spore Smeargle with Focus Sash don't require Luck to guarantee an OHKO. Boil Over doesn't require luck in order to burn either. It just requires its 30% chance which is almost one third of the time.
This quote ruins the tiny bit of credibility you have ever had.
That one turn is enough to get my Kabutops to +2, my Venusaur to +2/+2, my Doryuuzu to +2, my Randorosu to +2 Speed, my Cloyster to +2/+2/+2, etc.
A turn is a big deal.
No, but it does require that your opponent have no Pokemon with Sturdy, Sand Stream, Snow Warning, Substitute, or Protect. Didn't think this one through, did we?
Except if you have Aromatherapy/Heal Bell support, a SleepTalker, an already-statused pokemon, an Insomnia/Vital Spirit Pokemon, a Pokemon that doesn't mind sleeping for 1-3 turns like a wall, or are lucky and wake up early. Sleep is already limited by the Sleep Clause, and has also been discussed for banning because of the debilitating factor, so it doesn't really work well as a counter-argument imo.
The difference between normal luck and unnecessary luck is that one is something that just happens, and whether it does or doesn't happen doesn't matter when considering the normal function of the move/ability/item, and the other has the intended effect be the luck factor, and it matters significantly whether it happens or not. Basically, normal luck is primarily the function of the game's mechanics, while unnecessary luck is primarily the function of the move/ability/item itself. For example, you don't use Flamethrower for the 10% burn chance or 6.25% critical hit chance, you use it for the base 95 damage; Sheer Cold and Sand Veil, on the other hand, you only use because it has a 30% chance of OHKOing something or 20% chance of a move missing when Sand is the active weather respectively.
Crits, secondary effects, and (to some degree) high/low damage rolls are in the former, while OHKO moves and Evasion-boosting moves/abilities/items are in the latter. I find status-inducing moves to be in the former as well, as the effects of the status effecting play are the primary function of the game mechanics of the status, not of the status-inducing moves themselves. Maybe that's not a clear enough definition, or maybe I'm missing something that messes up that definition, but that's my view. You're free to disagree.
I've never personally played in a metagame in which OHKO moves are unbanned but theorymon tells me something like this would be a pain.
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Poison Heal
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish
- Guillotine
- Taunt
- Earthquake
- whatever
Basically switch in on one of the many things that are forced to switch out by Gliscor and use Guillotine. In this situation the Gliscor user has very little to lose and a 30% chance of instantly killing something. Most Sturdy Pokemon either lose to Taunt (think Skarm, Forry, Shuckle etc) or Earthquake (think Gigaisu, Magnezone, Aggron etc). Damn Ghosts.
Suicune @ Leftovers
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
- Sheer Cold
- Surf
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Switch in on a bulky water or anything that can't threaten Suicune and click Sheer Cold. Voila! 30% chance that something dies. Fun fun fun.
There's a long list of other Pokemon that can work like that...switch Snorlax in on a special attacker and Fissure the switch in? Hippowdon on a physical attacker? Stallrein can start slinging around Sheer Cold now whenever he gets a breather.
Honestly that's just theorymon but does it really matter if OHKO moves are broken or not? They'll have such an overwhelmingly negative impact on the game that there really is no reason for us to consider unbanning them other than people getting a little obsessive with the fairness of the policy-making. We're trying to make a competitive metagame - OHKO moves are the exact opposite of competitive.
Further reading on OHKO clause policy in 5th Gen here.
Yea, what Lee and other anti-OHKO people say.
This is because Aldaron's Proposal jumps to the conclusion that it's the ability of Drizzle + Swift Swim that is overpowered, and not everyone agrees to that. There are two questions that needs to be answered:
1) Is it Perma-Rain's primary effects that are broken or the combination of Perma-Rain + Swift Swim / Hydration?
-This will deal with the arguments stating that dual Water STAB and perfectly accurate Thunder is too much to handle. Once and for all. No more arguments about this issue after Phase 1.
2) Is it the combination of Perma-Rain + Swift Swim / Hydration that is broken or simply a few notable Rain Sweepers that are broken (Kingdra / Manaphy)
-Phase 2 answers whether we could simply restrict our bans to x number of Abusers, or whether we have more than x number of Abusers and must enact broader restrictions. So this stage determines which course of action is best to take if Drizzle itself is not broken (of course Drizzle may STILL be banned if other approaches are deemed reprehensible by the majority).
I actually love that idea! I think it has even been brought up in the Policy Review thread. The only issue is that it is more complicated than Aldaron's proposal, since we are now banning a combination of Drizzle and specific Pokemon, but the difference is negligible. This proves to be a good alternative for Rain that passes Phase 2. I will go edit this into the OP of my proposal thread! Thanks, Lightning Tiger!
I hope you can now better appreciate this approach, LTiger. Please take a look and contribute to the thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85113
Lightning Tiger said:
This is because Aldaron's Proposal jumps to the conclusion that it's the ability of Drizzle + Swift Swim that is overpowered, and not everyone agrees to that. There are two questions that needs to be answered:
1) Is it Perma-Rain's primary effects that are broken or the combination of Perma-Rain + Swift Swim / Hydration?
-This will deal with the arguments stating that dual Water STAB and perfectly accurate Thunder is too much to handle. Once and for all. No more arguments about this issue after Phase 1.
2) Is it the combination of Perma-Rain + Swift Swim / Hydration that is broken or simply a few notable Rain Sweepers that are broken (Kingdra / Manaphy)
-Phase 2 answers whether we could simply restrict our bans to x number of Abusers, or whether we have more than x number of Abusers and must enact broader restrictions. So this stage determines which course of action is best to take if Drizzle itself is not broken (of course Drizzle may STILL be banned if other approaches are deemed reprehensible by the majority).
Lightning Tiger said:
I actually love that idea! I think it has even been brought up in the Policy Review thread. The only issue is that it is more complicated than Aldaron's proposal, since we are now banning a combination of Drizzle and specific Pokemon, but the difference is negligible. This proves to be a good alternative for Rain that passes Phase 2. I will go edit this into the OP of my proposal thread! Thanks, Lightning Tiger!
I hope you can now better appreciate this approach, LTiger. Please take a look and contribute to the thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85113
Minor question regarding special permission applications.
Would we hear back if we were denied through PM or would they not respond at all or something?
Would we hear back if we were denied through PM or would they not respond at all or something?
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