CM Roar Latias does not beat Rankurusu, because no good player using Rankurusu would keep setting up CMs on a Latias. It would Psycho Shock for the 2HKO right off the bat.
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?
- Thread starter Philip7086
- Start date
- Status
CM Roar Latias does not beat Rankurusu, because no good player using Rankurusu would keep setting up CMs on a Latias. It would Psycho Shock for the 2HKO right off the bat.
Assuming max HP Reuniclus(They need the bulk,so no investment in Sp.Attack),here are his Psycho Shocks against a 252 HP/0 Def Latias:
+0 = 286 Atk vs 216 Def & 364 HP (80 Base Power): 57 - 67 (15.66% - 18.41%)
+1 = 429 Atk vs 216 Def & 364 HP (80 Base Power): 85 - 101 (23.35% - 27.75%)
+2 = 572 Atk vs 216 Def & 364 HP (80 Base Power): 114 - 134 (31.32% - 36.81%)
+3 = 715 Atk vs 216 Def & 364 HP (80 Base Power): 142 - 168 (39.01% - 46.15%)
+4 = 858 Atk vs 216 Def & 364 HP (80 Base Power): 170 - 201 (46.70% - 55.22%)
+5 = 1001 Atk vs 216 Def & 364 HP (80 Base Power): 199 - 234 (54.67% - 64.29%)
+6 = 1144 Atk vs 216 Def & 364 HP (80 Base Power): 227 - 267 (62.36% - 73.35%)
As you can see,Reuniclus needs to be at +4 to even be able to 2HKO with Psycho Shock.
How much does Lati do back?
With Dragon Pulse(The second number is Reuniclus,the first is Lati):
+0 and +0 = 256 Atk vs 206 Def & 424 HP (90 Base Power): 120 - 142 (28.30% - 33.49%)
+0 and +1 = 256 Atk vs 309 Def & 424 HP (90 Base Power): 81 - 96 (19.10% - 22.64%)
+1 and +2 = 384 Atk vs 412 Def & 424 HP (90 Base Power): 91 - 108 (21.46% - 25.47%)
+2 and +3 = 512 Atk vs 515 Def & 424 HP (90 Base Power): 97 - 115 (22.88% - 27.12%)
+3 and +4 = 640 Atk vs 618 Def & 424 HP (90 Base Power): 102 - 120 (24.06% - 28.30%)
+4 and +5 = 768 Atk vs 721 Def & 424 HP (90 Base Power): 103 - 123 (24.29% - 29.01%)
+5 and +6 = 896 Atk vs 824 Def & 424 HP (90 Base Power): 106 - 126 (25.00% - 29.72%)
+6 and +6 = 1024 Atk vs 824 Def & 424 HP (90 Base Power): 120 - 142 (28.30% - 33.49%)
+3 and +0(After Roar) = 640 Atk vs 206 Def & 424 HP (90 Base Power): 300 - 354 (70.75% - 83.49%)
Assuming Lati switched in,Latias can use Roar at around +3,possibly recover the damage,and keep up the CM race later on or just downright rape him.
That was a Latias with no investment in Sp.Attack.
Can people stop assuming Latias cannot stop Reuniclus?
252 HP, 252 Sp.Atk (Rankurusu doesn't have to invest in speed lol)
252 SpA LO Psycho Shock vs. 252/0 Latias: 42.9% - 50.8%
So yes, there is a (small) chance of a 2HKO. EDIT: Sorry, forgot lefties (facepalm). But still, at +2, it's guaranteed through leftovers, so if your plan is to CM up alongside Rankurusu after getting up 1 CM you will have to keep recovering, because Roar has negative priority. Let's hope Rankurusu doesn't get a crit. Either way, what does roaring out Rankurusu do? Let it switch back in later for free?
Please don't bother post calcs if you are setting it up in your favor. "Min SpA Starmie's Thunderbolt vs. Max SpDef Gyarados: 39.6% - 46.7%!!!!!! Not a 2HKO!!!"
I didn't make those calcs, but even I know that they assumed 252 Def EVs.
What kind of Bulky Reuniclus runs 252 Sp.attack?
It wont survive jack unless it runs Bold 252 HP/252 Def.
Stop over estimating him.
It wont survive jack unless it runs Bold 252 HP/252 Def.
Stop over estimating him.
I haven't been following the discussion enough for any real input, but I have to call this out:
CM Rankurusu is 252 HP / 252 SpA? A few pages back it was 252/252 Bold, except for Trick Room / Psychic / Shadow Ball / Focus Blast sets, which are 252/252 SpA Quiet and lack CM.
Maybe I've been reading wrong but that seems like an inconsistency.
CM Rankurusu is 252 HP / 252 SpA? A few pages back it was 252/252 Bold, except for Trick Room / Psychic / Shadow Ball / Focus Blast sets, which are 252/252 SpA Quiet and lack CM.
Maybe I've been reading wrong but that seems like an inconsistency.
Because,people keep changing the sets to make him seem over powered.
It's ridiculous.
The TR sets are arguably easier to counter as it usually doesn't have the bulk to take SE hits.
I believe the standard is 252/252 bold for CM. It needs this to survive most ttar's crunches and CB scizor's uturn. I know that it's what I run. But theres a case for 128 or something sp atk to guarantee a ohko on max hp ttar at +1 or something, I forgot what it was exactly. But LO and/or max sp atk is very rare on CM Reiunclus.
This is why I light quoted every instance of the word 'irritate'. OHKO moves were not banned on the basis of a whim, but on the basis of being uncompetitive, as defined by similarly manipulated luck-based factors that affect the game in such a significant manner to warrant being called 'overpowering'. Inconsistent's luck can be manipulated to win matches alone and there are limited to no viable ways to avoid it. The same goes for Evasion moves.
Also, just so we're clear, Pokemon like Jirachi and Togekiss cannot do this. It will take some sort of cosmic event or divine intervention for them to accumulate enough damage KO some of the Pokemon that wall their movesets, and even then, they just don't have enough PP to keep doing it.
Moot point. People naturally do this because if you don't propose a proper argument as to why something in the metagame is overpowering, people will either ignore you, refute your statement, or demand evidence.
My argument as to why OHKO moves should remain banned is pretty solid: you have a 30% chance to OHKO a Pokemon no matter what and certain measures can be taken to either continue rolling for this chance or to make this KO guaranteed in two turns tops. Both the chance and stakes are too high for this kind of luck and can easily surrender the game to significantly less skilled players. As I mentioned earlier, this is just plain uncompetitive.
I would just like to point out some issues with a typical nomination. Nothing personal Zombeh, you're just an example.
So it was all fine up to this point.
But then this happened. If you aren't going to explain any reasons, then how do we know you aren't just bandwagoning or nominating on a whim?
I know that people have pretty much said everything already, but at least give some excuse to show that it's a serious nomination.
It cost you some battles, huh?
So have crits. And Stone Edge misses.
The problem with this one is that you really have to determine something. Is it broken/ruining-the-metagame, or do you just hate it? In short, just explain why you think it should be banned, instead of complaining.
@ the last sentence:
Why? Just why?
Will we be plagued with locusts if we ban only one weather?
If only one is broken, then why not ban only one?
Excellent question!
Once again, no offense Zombeh, but this "normal" nomination seems a little... "off" to me.
Zombeh said:
So it was all fine up to this point.
But then this happened. If you aren't going to explain any reasons, then how do we know you aren't just bandwagoning or nominating on a whim?
I know that people have pretty much said everything already, but at least give some excuse to show that it's a serious nomination.
It cost you some battles, huh?
So have crits. And Stone Edge misses.
The problem with this one is that you really have to determine something. Is it broken/ruining-the-metagame, or do you just hate it? In short, just explain why you think it should be banned, instead of complaining.
@ the last sentence:
Why? Just why?
Will we be plagued with locusts if we ban only one weather?
If only one is broken, then why not ban only one?
Excellent question!
Once again, no offense Zombeh, but this "normal" nomination seems a little... "off" to me.
This. Nothing says that we have to be equally "fair" to everything. I think everyone can agree that we want to create a fun, competitive, and diverse metagame. If one weather detracts from that goal, but the others don't, then we ban that one weather. The fact that, for example, it hurts rain stall but not hail stall doesn't mean it's being unfair to rain stall. Rain stall isn't a person; it isn't even a physical thing. As for the players, if you really don't think you can have fun using any sort of team other than rain stall, then it may be that the problem lies with you.
The standard ev spread for Reuniclus' set is 252hp/252Def Bold for CM and 252hp/252SpA for Trick Room. The calm mind set needs that bulk in order to survive Scizor's CB U-turns and Tyranitar's CB Crunch. The TR set needs 252SpA because it wouldn't have any real power without it.
KK so for counters Reuniclus has CMRoar Latias, CBScizor, Shubarugo, and Spiritomb. Can an arguement really be made to keep Reuniclus OU with these guys? CMRoar Latias seems unviable and Shubarugo and spiritomb arent used very much in todays metagame. Scizor seems to be the only one you can make a case with and it still has trouble constantly taking those Focus Blasts while switching in.
KK so for counters Reuniclus has CMRoar Latias, CBScizor, Shubarugo, and Spiritomb. Can an arguement really be made to keep Reuniclus OU with these guys? CMRoar Latias seems unviable and Shubarugo and spiritomb arent used very much in todays metagame. Scizor seems to be the only one you can make a case with and it still has trouble constantly taking those Focus Blasts while switching in.
It has crazy HP, it ca easily run some EVs in SpA
Why would it? It already has base 125 SpA and can run LO anyway so why not just make it 252/252 Bold if you're going to boost with CM anyway.
It helps to be able to do more damage after only one or two calm minds
Not as much as it does to be able to take physical hits like a fully invested Rankurusu.
It's not like it outspeeds anything, so there's no point in investing to get KOs when you're going to take hits anyway. Bulk is very important for a bulky booster.
CMRoar Latias
CBScizor
CBtar
Shubarugo
Heracross
Spiritomb
Anything with Taunt that can withstand his unboosted hits while doing decent damage
3 of those are quite viable and it's not like you NEED them. I only run Scizor but it's usually my Hydreigon that kills him.
???
Better to take one hit than two, even if you have invested, as you won't be doubling your defense
He still needs to fully invest in bulk to survive those strong SE hits.
For Shubargo.
Try a 252 hp, 252 SpD careful CB set with megahorn and iron head.
Legit.
At least you can also use it to revenge Kingdra,Ludicolo or dent whatever switches in, if I calc'd it right Nattorei needs Impish and max HP and defense to survive shub's megahorn from 0 attk CB'd. If rocks aren't up you'll kill common things in rain except I believe Zapdos. Maybe you'll see it as going for something specifically made to do something to rain but, it seems like it has more application then just rain. Heres hoping it will get brick break or close combat from a move tutor.
Just putting that out there for the merit of Shubargo to have more purpose then just Reunc killing.
Hell could probably pair it up with trick room Burungeru to kill rain teams.
Try a 252 hp, 252 SpD careful CB set with megahorn and iron head.
Legit.
At least you can also use it to revenge Kingdra,Ludicolo or dent whatever switches in, if I calc'd it right Nattorei needs Impish and max HP and defense to survive shub's megahorn from 0 attk CB'd. If rocks aren't up you'll kill common things in rain except I believe Zapdos. Maybe you'll see it as going for something specifically made to do something to rain but, it seems like it has more application then just rain. Heres hoping it will get brick break or close combat from a move tutor.
Just putting that out there for the merit of Shubargo to have more purpose then just Reunc killing.
Hell could probably pair it up with trick room Burungeru to kill rain teams.
@Kefka
1. Heracross is a check not a counter. It's ohkoed by a +0 neutral Psychic with no evs. That's a Calm Mind Set right there without a Calm Mind. It cant actually switch into a Reuniclus' Calm Mind set. It could only go in on the expected Calm Mind or when Reuniclus kills something. It can't switch in at all on Reuniclus if trick room is up. Reuniclus would "outspeed" under trick room and ohko with psychic.
2. What Taunt user that hasn't been identified as a counter to Reuniclus can take it's attacks and taunt back successfully without being crippled?
3. I get Hydreigon well enough however it could only switch in when something is killed lest you wanna take the chance of it getting hit with Reuniclus' Focus Blast.
I'm not talking about checks. I'm talking about things that can come in on it, take it's hits, and successfully cripple or kill it 1 on 1.
1. Heracross is a check not a counter. It's ohkoed by a +0 neutral Psychic with no evs. That's a Calm Mind Set right there without a Calm Mind. It cant actually switch into a Reuniclus' Calm Mind set. It could only go in on the expected Calm Mind or when Reuniclus kills something. It can't switch in at all on Reuniclus if trick room is up. Reuniclus would "outspeed" under trick room and ohko with psychic.
2. What Taunt user that hasn't been identified as a counter to Reuniclus can take it's attacks and taunt back successfully without being crippled?
3. I get Hydreigon well enough however it could only switch in when something is killed lest you wanna take the chance of it getting hit with Reuniclus' Focus Blast.
I'm not talking about checks. I'm talking about things that can come in on it, take it's hits, and successfully cripple or kill it 1 on 1.
1.It can switch in on Focus Blast,Recover,and CM. That's good enough.
2.Gliscor.
3.That's just me.
- Status