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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?
- Thread starter Philip7086
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How about metagross and snorlax?
Meta has a 4x psychic resist, and is neutral to focus blast and shadow ball. He gets pursuit, and has base 135 attack. Surely he can OHKO reuniclus with something? I think he can also trick a scarf onto it.
Snorlax can wall reuniclus decently and gets pursuit and crunch.
Musharna has great bulk. It can Calm mind alongside reun and use assist power. Not sure how effective it'd be, but it learns hypnosis.
Honchkrow? Subroost and sucker punch for trick room sets, night slash and pursuit otherwise.
Mandibuzz has great bulk and resistances and can whirlwind reuniclus away.
Cresselia has much greater bulk than reuniclus. It can switch in on a calm mind and boost up alongside it and use psycho shock with higher speed, psycho shift sleep onto it, trickscarf it...
Meta has a 4x psychic resist, and is neutral to focus blast and shadow ball. He gets pursuit, and has base 135 attack. Surely he can OHKO reuniclus with something? I think he can also trick a scarf onto it.
Snorlax can wall reuniclus decently and gets pursuit and crunch.
Musharna has great bulk. It can Calm mind alongside reun and use assist power. Not sure how effective it'd be, but it learns hypnosis.
Honchkrow? Subroost and sucker punch for trick room sets, night slash and pursuit otherwise.
Mandibuzz has great bulk and resistances and can whirlwind reuniclus away.
Cresselia has much greater bulk than reuniclus. It can switch in on a calm mind and boost up alongside it and use psycho shock with higher speed, psycho shift sleep onto it, trickscarf it...
I'm not going to go through every single one and go through why they're not a counter. I cba, really.
For example, though, Celebi would seemingly struggle with Scizor, or Tyranitar, or Heatran, yet it has the means to take out all of them in common sets. Stuff like Lati twins can't even dream of switching in on Garchomp. What if he subs, what if he outrages? Outpredicting does not make a counter since it works both ways. Assuming all Chomps are scarfed also does not work.
Gengar is another. It doesn't have any real counter. Pokemon like Celebi and Gengar are so versatile they just don't have one Pokemon which can counter them.
Well, Rankurusu is actually impossible to cripple, since it has immunity to status and it is able to Recover at any point of the game. However, Deoxys-D is actually an effective counter to CM Rankurusu since it can Taunt it and set up hazards/stall it out of PP with Pressure.
CB Bronzong is also an effective counter to Rankurusu that don't run min Spe if I haven't said that before since it can 2hko with Payback.
I already know about magic guard. However, things like trick still work. Deo-D still wont work against the TR set because It cant recover off the damage from shadow ball faster than it can recover and still set up. Mabye a combination of Cosmic Power and recover but that pretty much works against most things without taunt.
The above. At first it seemed Drizzle was a shoe in for finally being banned but then the proposal appeared and everyone jumped ship onto that. Drizzle is broken.
Same thing happened with Deoxys-N. Heavy groupthink syndrome this round. Ugh. I was this close to thinking the next round was going to be fun. Does anybody even remember how awesome 4th gen OU was post-Mence? Now the groundhog is going to go back into its hole, leaving us with six more weeks of broken metagame.
AGREED, THIS RAIN CANNOT STAND.
Odd yelling aside, any idea when they're going to release the voter list? It should be out within a few hours I imagine. I really don't like how this vote round will turn out if it works as I see it.
EDIT: Turns out the list is in the blind voting section, and... Goddammit. Fuck my shitty timeframe to actually do anything, let alone getting online. That shit is why I never get voter rights. Fuck. There goes any chance of me getting voter rights. Special permission apps just don't work for me...
I take full responsibility for the chain of events that led to that happening xD
Hmm how should I vote now...
Rain is a good weather, don't ban it :/ Rain, without its abusers, could easily become the new anti-meta weather, beating Sand and Sun, and netting its walls Leftovers recovery, removing Fire-weaks, and giving Water/Electrics the ability to use stronger STABs all around.
I still don't understand how Mence could be banned in Gen 4; the metagame was perfectly fine with him IMO.
I still don't understand how Mence could be banned in Gen 4; the metagame was perfectly fine with him IMO.
Everything in this post is wrong.
Rain isn't anti-meta, it IS the meta.
4th Gen pre-Mence was terrible. It was literally "Mence, Scizor, Bulky Water, Heatran, Celebi/another Dragon, Lead". Pretty much nothing else was viable.
What's the rush with getting drizzle out anyway. 5th gen is just getting started. You think you know that it's broken without swift swim but there's no way you can really know for sure. You don't even want to give it a chance to be tested? That's pretty closed minded. Chances are it won't even be that popular without swift swim.
It HAS been tested, dude. It's been tested by everyone who's played in this meta.
I'm talking about the proposals...testing each aspect of rain to determine what part of it is broken not just banning it entirely for a quick fix so we can have a "good" metagame as soon as possible.
Regardless, this is the 5th Gen thread.
Anyway I`ve sklowly adjusted my stance on OP pokemon. Originally I was extremely moderate in terms of banning pokemon. My ideal rpund of bans this time would look like: Manaphy, Doryuzzu, Randorosu, Reuniclus, Aldarons Proposal. The previous have been discussed to death and are what I feel the metagame would be healthiwer without.
I will touch on Aldarons Proposal. I have and will continue to maintain that neither Rain, nor individual Swift Swimmers are inherently broken. No-one will argue that the Swift Swimmers outside of Rain or Rain Stall is too OP. It is my opinion that banning Drizzle and Swift Swim on the same team is the best course of action as neither Rain nor Swift Swim is inherently broken.
Finally, I would like to touch on one other pokemon, Blaziken. Asume for a moment that the previos mentioned pokemon are banned undoubtedly, Rain and Sand team usage will drop leading to an increase in Sun teams. While Blaze can be a terror this round under Sun without the threat of opposing Rain a set of Protect, SD, HJK, Flare Blitz will destroy everything not named Chandeliuere since under Sun your hitting with a +2 double stab base 120 move. If the Aforementioned pokemon are banned look for Blaze to be next on the chopping block.
Protip: NP Ape destroys current popular stall cores.
Anyway I`ve sklowly adjusted my stance on OP pokemon. Originally I was extremely moderate in terms of banning pokemon. My ideal rpund of bans this time would look like: Manaphy, Doryuzzu, Randorosu, Reuniclus, Aldarons Proposal. The previous have been discussed to death and are what I feel the metagame would be healthiwer without.
I will touch on Aldarons Proposal. I have and will continue to maintain that neither Rain, nor individual Swift Swimmers are inherently broken. No-one will argue that the Swift Swimmers outside of Rain or Rain Stall is too OP. It is my opinion that banning Drizzle and Swift Swim on the same team is the best course of action as neither Rain nor Swift Swim is inherently broken.
Finally, I would like to touch on one other pokemon, Blaziken. Asume for a moment that the previos mentioned pokemon are banned undoubtedly, Rain and Sand team usage will drop leading to an increase in Sun teams. While Blaze can be a terror this round under Sun without the threat of opposing Rain a set of Protect, SD, HJK, Flare Blitz will destroy everything not named Chandeliuere since under Sun your hitting with a +2 double stab base 120 move. If the Aforementioned pokemon are banned look for Blaze to be next on the chopping block.
Protip: NP Ape destroys current popular stall cores.
CMRank usually runs 252HP/4 SAtk/ 252 Def Bold I thought. So Latias can comfortably CM up next to it. With no Defense Rankurusu has a who host of other problems, like staying alive long enough to hit a Physical threat. For example JollyScarfChomp does: 58.7% - 69.3% with outrage to the no Def one, and 39.9% - 47.4% to the Bold one. I also thought most people used Psychic because it 2HKOsBlissey at +6, but I might be wrong there because Psycho Shock seems equally viable. Roaring Rankurusu basically gave you free +4/+4 Latias. Dealing with that is what the player needs to think about, not how he can get Rankurusu back in and set up.
Stop being a party pooper and try the damn thing.
Psychic is better in general imo at least for the current meta because teams are heavily loaded with defensive walls due to the sheer number of powerful physical threats. I know my team is. Sure if you manage to CM to +4 or +6 you can still hit hard with psycho shock but honestly who's going to let you CM so much.
Having used a CM rankurusu, I can tell you that he's indeed a good pokemon but not really broken. So many things hit so hard these days, he never really gets to CM up much at all and has only ever swept against really bad teams. What happens in most cases is that he manages to kill something but is weakened to about 40-50% HP. Then the next pokemon comes in and kills it before it can recover.
I can understand how stall teams might have difficulty with it but honestly I believe pure stall just isn't very viable anymore. At least not the old formula of setting up hazards and have 6 walls try to counter everything ala obi stall. There are so many pokemon that only have 1 or 2 or 3 good counters that if you're not weak to ranku, you'll be weak to terrakion or landlos or garchomp or jarooda or roob or the 10 other things that are just really hard to counter.
Balanced teams are the way to go imo but if you're still intent on playing stall then there are pokemon that can counter ranku. If you're not willing to use them because they don't fit into your team or because replacing something would open your team up to another threat, then that's your problem for choosing to play pure stall as you will have that problem regardless unless you plan on banning every good pokemon in gen5.
Test each aspect of Rain to determine whether or not it's broken? Since when did we decide that picking and choosing balance methods for something broken was better than banning the culprit itself? Basically everyone who has been playing this round decided Drizzle was broken. Why are we trying to keep it? Sand has no clout whatsoever without Doryuuzu and Landlos, who have yet to be put to a vote. Sun is going to be broken regardless of whether or not Rain is there to check it. This is a completely futile endeavor.
You guys know what is and isn't the problem, don't bs me with all of these arguments about "testing every little part of every little mechanic to see what we can ban." Regardless of what we've tested and banned over the years, we've never enacted this kind of policy. And why should we? If something is broken, ban it. We didn't ban Swords Dance Garchomp or ChainChomp, we banned Garchomp.
You don't throw around random bans to weaken certain influences because one, there's no guarantee it'll work and two, it's logically unsound. For a playerbase that's suddenly obsessed with extraneous testing, I'm surprised we're letting it slip by that Swift Swim in and of itself just plain isn't broken.
If all we have to do is rally up enough people to get random things that aren't broken banned, then it's going to be a very bleak future for the competitive state of 5th gen Pokemon. We seriously need to cut this off at the source before this logic starts holding up with arguments like "Swords Dance Garchomp" or "Draco Meteor Latios."
Rain is inherently broken because it activates Swift Swim, among a multitude of other things, and entire teams of abusers can be created to destroy non-Rain teams. You seem to have this idea that banning Swift Swim would get Rain "alone" for individual testing, which is false. Rain is doing all of the things we dislike in this metagame. Name one person who's complained about how broken Swift Swim is. We are not banning Swift Swim for being broken, we're just nerfing Rain for irrelevant special interests. Or at least trying to. I still maintain the opinion that it won't work.
And one last thing: banning Drizzle does NOT ban Rain. It bans permanent Rain. Rain was not broken before it became permanent and we don't have a sudden requirement for it now that it is.
Agreed. Do we really need more proof that Swift Swim isn't broken, or are we going to continue to skirt the fact that permanent Rain is?
I went Weavile Lead + Scizor and filled my other slots as I wished and still ended up in pretty good shape.
Also, I said Rain without the main abusers. Even if you were to ban every single ability that so much as gets any benefits from the rain (Rain Dish, Dry Skin, Swift Swim, ALL BANNED) Rain would still be a very useful weather all around. There's at least 10 ways you can use Rain, and only 1 way you can play Swift Swimmers. Really, if you want diversity, you could keep Rain and ban every single damn Water-type.
Rain is a field effect that will be in place most of the time. Last gen I was one of the people for the Stealth Rock ban. What's the difference between them? Rain requires only the switch-in, while Stealth Rock requires the switch and the turn to cast Rocks. On the other hand Rocks are more difficult to remove from the field than Rain, when you can get rid of Rain by switching in another weather starter. "Oh Toad counters everything" then use Shadow Tag or something.
The really horrible Swift Swimmers are like Kingdra and Ludicolo precisely because they resist the common Electric/Grass weaks of Water-types. Rain HO will probably be more balanced once those two are gone, because Power Whip hits all the other Swift Swimmers except Qwilfish for SE IIRC, and I'm pretty sure Thunderbolt hits each and every single one except those two for SE. Sure you have 3 Swift Swimmers, but you can't switch them around with impunity because all of them are weak to Electric/Grass. Going to Zapdos/Natt? I'll just take the chance to screw your weather/wail on Zapdos/Natt so you lose your main counter.
There is nothing wrong with permanent Rain. It's just that Kingdra and Ludicolo have absolutely perfect stats and typing to abuse it.
No, you decided drizzle was broken. You think sun is broken regardless. You think it's a futile endeavor. If you read the majority consensus, it is that drizzle itself may not be inherently broken. It's broken with swift swim and to an extent the 3 best pokemon who abuse swift swim. That's why we want to test it to see if that's the case.
You may be right and it might still be too powerful in which case you will probably get what you want and drizzle will be banned. Or, you know, you might be wrong and it's not so bad without swift swim and drizzle won't be allowed on the same team as swift swim. Either way, the only thing we know for sure from this round is that drizzle + swift swim together is broken and that's all we're acting on until further tests are done. There's no rush.
And since when did we pick and choose what to ban? Since now because rain is not a single pokemon getting its moveset or its item choice or its ability limited. It's an entire playstyle and as Aldaron said it's a special case due to it affecting so many things.
Hey, SJCrew, at least take solace that my proposal did not go through for voting (so it seems, since Philip7086 didn't mention it on the voting thread ;_;... correct me if I am wrong, though!).
That would've put Drizzle under close scrutiny for a potential 2 rounds of Suspect Testing :p
I personally favored banning 2-3 Rain Abusers before resorting to Aldaron's Proposal. but I take this as a compromise between pro-Drizzle and anti-Drizzle camps. I hope Aldaron's Proposal passes to at least give Drizzle a round of closer investigation.
Of course your viewpoint holds high value, since you are apparently an avid player. However, I still take the stand that Drizzle is victimized and treated unfairly for appearing AFTER Swift Swim, and that Drizzle will not be distasteful once the proposal takes act, since most of the complaints are Drizzle + Swift Swim.
That would've put Drizzle under close scrutiny for a potential 2 rounds of Suspect Testing :p
I personally favored banning 2-3 Rain Abusers before resorting to Aldaron's Proposal. but I take this as a compromise between pro-Drizzle and anti-Drizzle camps. I hope Aldaron's Proposal passes to at least give Drizzle a round of closer investigation.
Of course your viewpoint holds high value, since you are apparently an avid player. However, I still take the stand that Drizzle is victimized and treated unfairly for appearing AFTER Swift Swim, and that Drizzle will not be distasteful once the proposal takes act, since most of the complaints are Drizzle + Swift Swim.
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