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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?
- Thread starter Philip7086
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Can we please stop shunning PO's usage statistics just for what the lower statistics say? Believe it or not, GOOD players do exist on that server and all of the important statistics are at the top.
You didn't see anyone in fourth gen going, "Lol, smogon's shoddy server must have a bunch of shitty players. They actually use Ninjask and Electivire."
You didn't see anyone in fourth gen going, "Lol, smogon's shoddy server must have a bunch of shitty players. They actually use Ninjask and Electivire."
Except that those 'good players' don't influence the majority of the stats.
Seriously most "sand" teams aren't really focused around sand like rain teams are focus around rain. They have sand because they want to use Tyranitar because it's freaking good and at the same time provides a good check to rain.
The reason Tyranitar, Garchomp, Scizor, Nattorei etc have such high usage is because they're good pokemon. They would have the same usage even without sand. Only dory usage would drop with the absence of sand. High usage of Tyranitar and certain sand immune pokemon is really unrelated to whether or not the weather itself is broken.
The reason Tyranitar, Garchomp, Scizor, Nattorei etc have such high usage is because they're good pokemon. They would have the same usage even without sand. Only dory usage would drop with the absence of sand. High usage of Tyranitar and certain sand immune pokemon is really unrelated to whether or not the weather itself is broken.
My god Nat is not a kingdra counter. It is at least 3HKOd by HYDRO PUMP at max health
That is assuming rain, and specs on kingdra, and that Hydro Pump hits three times in a row successfully. Not to mention Natt has TWave, which will effectively neuter Kingdra for the rest of your team to handle.
And in those 3 turns Kingdra could get power whipped to death or t-waved, allowing it to be killed by another poke easily.
Edit: slightly ninja`d
Edit: slightly ninja`d
Experiences without proof are subjective. When backed by statistics they become more credible. Typically "statistics" that come into play are damage calculations, but usage should still be very important.
More so if you could actually break usage down into users with higher ratings. I mean, it's all very well saying that "Oh politoad is only ## in usage, so rain teams aren't that prevelant", but if it's "Politoad is ## in usage amongst top players, showing the power of rain teams" it becomes much more valid.
Even if I agree with most bans Smogon makes, I can't help but feel that everytime I see something get banned it was handled poorly. The process needs more of an update than the tiers.
WELL he obviously meant Kingdra in rain, as it wouldn't be used elsewhere, and DD Kingdra would likely do more, and many Kingdra carry HP Fighting, which does MORE. Need I go on?
Posting to say that burungeru shits on special kingdra. Taunt does pretty well against dd kingdra too, especially if you're running wisp or toxic (physical kingdra are forced to outrage, which is easily countered or stalled out). But rain teams don't use physical kingdra because LO/specs is so good.
But honestly, a good nattorei player won't let their nattorei die to kingdra. You take like 40% from HP, leech seed on the switch, and you took a net of like 20%. Assuming they didn't miss. Natty can switch into kingdra 2 or 3 times, and that's alll a good player should ever need.
But honestly, a good nattorei player won't let their nattorei die to kingdra. You take like 40% from HP, leech seed on the switch, and you took a net of like 20%. Assuming they didn't miss. Natty can switch into kingdra 2 or 3 times, and that's alll a good player should ever need.
If DD Kingdra has 2 or more DDs, Nat will just cry. HP Fighting is for when Rain is down, only some nat carry T-wave, and those who don't can do damn near nothing to Kingdra
Quite, Hydro Pump does literally 2% less to Nattorei than HP Fight - it isn't worth the moveslot to deal with Natt. Natt's best option is to T-Wave Kingdra, making it slower than him and the rest of his team, and hope for miss/parahax to be able to 2HKO with a 192Atk Power Whip.
Indeed, I never actually realised how well the (possibly foolishly) famous Natt/Burungeru core (now i suppose FerroCent or JelliThorn) deal with Kingdra alone.
Edit @ Masterful - anyone who lets Kingdra get to +2 when they have a Natt waiting deserves to be destroyed... But actually +2 Outrage still fails to 2HKO Natt, the same as Specs Hydro Pump does, and it also locks him in and possibly confuses too.
if rampardos has a rock polish and swords dance, everyone without priority will just cry. if you dont have rain up while you still have kingdra alive and its still not a guaranteed game and kingdra can help, then youre p dumb. only some nat carry twave but most all nat have either power whip or leech seed.
do you even look at what you type and think it over???????
do you even look at what you type and think it over???????
Specs Timid Kingdra's rain boosted Hydro Pump vs. 252/252 Sassy Ferrothorn: 32.4% - 38.4%
A 3HKO ignoring leftovers and leech seed.
Specs timid Kingdra's HP Fighting vs. 252/252 Sassy Ferrothorn: 34.1% - 40.3%
A 3HKO ignoring leftovers and leech seed.
Nuetral natured 0 EVs Ferrothorn's Power Whip vs. 32/0 Kingdra: 42.5% - 50.5%
A chance to 2HKO.
Dude, Kingdra IS countered. Yeah, he can always switch out. But don't ignore the fact that Kingdra is switching out because he's being countered.
I'd say that they do influence the majority higher up. As with any competitive game, when something is shown to be highly effective at a high level of play, it will become popular. In Magic the Gathering for example, Avenger of Zendikar only became popular and rose in price once a pro used him in a tournament and won. Meta Knight is the popular choice in SSBB because the best players used him well and won tournaments. Tyranitar is #2 on PO's statistics because good players use him to rise the ladders and other players try to mimic this.
How about if rain does down in the MIDDLE of a match!?!?!?!? Many Nat don't carry T-wave, and those that do can't always take 2 hits from a Kingdra, especially when it has no recovery outside of lefties and leech seed
Problem with this is Kingdra runs Modest as it doesn't need the speed afforded by Timid. So it can 3HKO Ferrothorn without fail, through lefties. However, it either takes 50%+ from a power whip, or is paralysed and then takes the same from a power whip as it kills Natt, effectively crippling it. If not paralysed Priority can kill it, if it is then a lot of things can outspeed and KO. If you don't want to lose your Kingdra, you'd be best off switching out of Ferrothorn, essentially.
get rain back up, not that hard. yes we already established some nat dont carry twave i dont see your point. what are you talking about those that do cant take 2 hits, its the same fucking pokemon with a different move. leftovers + leech seed is 18% per turn. thats pretty good.
where are you getting with this.
where are you getting with this.
I doubt Natt will be faster than anything after a T-wave unless the opponent's Pokemon has less than 70 base speed and is unboosted. Assuming Kingdra is in the rain it will probably still outspeed Natt. But yeah, the rest of the team could handle things after that.
1) Nattorei must've been on a lunch break while it got to +2/+2.
2) The Natty that do carry T-Wave neuter it though. Regardless of how common that is, it still ruins the Kingdra.
3) Apparently, "damn near nothing" now refers to a 120 bp STAB move coming off of 94 base Atk.
What move does Kingdra use to 2HKO Nattorei through Leftovers?
On a nap, you mean, SWITCHED OUT!!?!?!?!?!?! ZOMG! Yeah, T-wave from an above health Nat cripples it, but that doesn't make it a counter, since any slow poke can be switched in to take it. Nat just can't hold up to the power of repeated Hydro Pumps or HP Fighting when switching in, and it needs to be at at least 0% health to take 2 HP Fightings or Hydro Pump
Oh my god, SHUT UP! Everyone here who has ever used nattorei or kingdra knows that nattorei stops every single kingdra set cold
switch out = 1 turn of set up = 1 dd. in your example, nattorei just switched in, and forced the pokemon out, efficiently making it a counter. kingdra cant take repeated anything so the only time you can truly switch kingdra in is after a death, and at that point, unless the opponent has a really shitty team, they just won the game.
i also like how you just ignore points you lost
i also like how you just ignore points you lost
Yeah, I should have done the calcs with modest. However, as you said the nature only goes as far as to guarentee the 3HKO.
masterful, I mean no offense, but maybe you should just drop this arguement. I'm not saying we're all super informed here, but you made an earlier post in this very thread saying that smogon banned Genesect because it has an awesome ability, stats, and movepool. Your posts are losing credibility.
masterful, I mean no offense, but maybe you should just drop this arguement. I'm not saying we're all super informed here, but you made an earlier post in this very thread saying that smogon banned Genesect because it has an awesome ability, stats, and movepool. Your posts are losing credibility.
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