-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?
- Thread starter Philip7086
- Start date
- Status
Oh well, its started with shubarugo Ttar comparison then somebody say why you sue skarm anyway when someone say ttar 2HKO skarm with Stone miss. Fun time
About suspect lets discuss about Sun, or lets say the future of sun team.
I just found an idea to slap breelom on sun team
In theory, sun's biggest weakness is ninetales lose to every other weather summoner. SO, Breelom can handle most of the common weather summoner. It resist SR and enjoy the fire resistance the team have. It Resist Tar's STAB and able to get free sub fairly easily from most summoner. It outspeed Ttar, Hippo and most Politoed and get free sub/spore on them. Aboma is outsped and OHKO by common fire move user in sun team namely the ninetales itself(beware no switch in or you risk EQ, Punch etc), heatran, ken, etc.
It might work
About suspect lets discuss about Sun, or lets say the future of sun team.
I just found an idea to slap breelom on sun team
In theory, sun's biggest weakness is ninetales lose to every other weather summoner. SO, Breelom can handle most of the common weather summoner. It resist SR and enjoy the fire resistance the team have. It Resist Tar's STAB and able to get free sub fairly easily from most summoner. It outspeed Ttar, Hippo and most Politoed and get free sub/spore on them. Aboma is outsped and OHKO by common fire move user in sun team namely the ninetales itself(beware no switch in or you risk EQ, Punch etc), heatran, ken, etc.
It might work
I must admit that I LOVE Loom as a poke to help deal with other weathers, but I would just advise that you keep in mind its moderate fragility. Scarf Politoed can possibly 2HKO you with Hydro Pump, so it's always important to know that
Since when does Surf miss? Unless you're doing something weird like Brightpowder.
Oops thought he was talking about Hydro Pump. In that case, yeah, Scarf Surf Politoed can beat you, but Hydro Pump has a 28% of losing to you
This is me assuming that most rain teams don't use spikes and/or stealth rock
but rarely with spikes and sr. I'm not arguing here, I'm just saying that if you run Breloom ot counter rain, you have a very low chance of being able to switch in on even the weakest attacks, and you need some pretty major significant hax to succeed that way
Just in my experience, most Nats in rain run leech seed + sr/spikes, and rarely both at the same time. Yet that is neither conclusive nor extremely relevant. The point being that Breloom can rarely counter rain straight out, even WITHOUT spikes and sr, and the existence of either (or both) only makes his job harder
I personally am just looking forward to Drizzle to be banned so we can retest Manaphy in a Drizzle-less metagame. Few will argue that 8 Turn Rain is any easier to use and maintain than it was in 4th gen, and with Manaphy forced to support itself it becomes far easier to check, to the point where it is not broken outside of Drizzle-induced rain, IMO.
Or just retest Manaphy under the provision of Hydration + Drizzle being banned. Aldaron's proposal indicates that other combinations of weather-causing abilities and weather-using abilities could fall under the same exception as Swift Swim + Drizzle.
I don't agree with this. Swift Swim is MUCH more widespread than Hydration, meaning that banning the swimmers would mean banning like 15 pokemon until we got to Luvdisc level. It is one of the reasons why Aldaron's Proposal followed through.
If Manaphy is the only thing that effectively uses Hydration, then it needs to be the one to go (and the fact that it is really the only Hydration user around besides maybe Vaporeon indicates that it is, in fact, the only effective user).
And while I'm not referring to you in particular, this very same "slippery slope" argument is what some of the opponents of the proposal feared. Why don't we just ban SandStream + Sand Strength/Sand Rush? Drought + Solar Power? They haven't really been broken so far, so it wouldn't be the proper course of action. This argument has been done to death, though (the argument over the proposal in general, I mean), so let's not revive it.
Such bans are not a slippery slope; they fall completely within the scope of the proposal. So far, no Pokemon have been found to become broken if they make use of the combination of Sand Stream + Sand Throw / Sand Power, and yet we've seen a Pokemon that has displayed being broken with the combination of Drizzle + Hydration. Therefore, we need to find out if it will be beneficial to the metagame to allow Manaphy back into the metagame while away from rain teams at the expense of barring Hydration Vaporeon and a few other things from rain teams. If it is, we should go for it.
The same might have to apply to Sand Stream + Sand Throw / Sand Power in the future. Excadrill and Landlos are by far the most prominent users of each ability, respectively, and quite a few people have been questioning if they really belong in OU, even if the glitch on PO is ignored. I would say these people are incorrect, and that there is no need for such a ban, but there's still the possibility that one or both of them might be found to be broken on the basis of their abilities. If that happens, it would again be worth considering the possibility of banning the combination rather than the entire Pokemon.
The mistake is when people say that Aldaron's proposal should automatically be applied to other combinations, without regard for whether or not the other combinations are even broken. Rather, we should simply consider this an option that is perhaps preferable to banning an entire Pokemon but should not be invoked unless something within the scope of the combination has already been found to be broken. So we should obviously stay away from absurd bans of Drought + Solar Power and the like, but others should be considered within reason.
I wouldn't say this is the same argument that's happened many times. In other arguments regarding further implications of Aldaron's proposal, I tend to take the same stance as you're taking here. What I am suggesting is that these weather ability + weather ability bans should be considered just like any other sort of ban, to be used when needed and only when needed.
Manaphy isn't forced to support itself.
Unless you want to run 8-turn Rain (which is considerably more difficult this gen with Tyranitar and DroughtTales running around and greater offensive pressure), Manaphy is forced to run either TG / Surf / Rain Dance / Coverage or CM / Surf / Rest / Rain Dance if it wants to take advantage of Hydration. And that is severely limiting.
Well why not using bulky loom such as subseed(max speed max HP Jolly) ? Usualy our opponent think we might do spore etc so they usualy either switch to absorber etc. Depending on our prediction we can sub and then do things depend on opponent's move.
breelom is made to sub first anyway.
Also loom is not for countering rain. Its for make up for ninetales "omg im the worst weather summoner since i lost to everyone" trait
*at least abomasnow can beat Ttar and Hippo and toed
breelom is made to sub first anyway.
Also loom is not for countering rain. Its for make up for ninetales "omg im the worst weather summoner since i lost to everyone" trait
*at least abomasnow can beat Ttar and Hippo and toed
Waitwaitwait. This is obvious bull. That provision was made because it was a way of avoiding banning several Pokemon. You're trying to use this precedent to justify a significant rules change to avoid banning ONE Pokemon. That's not okay, especially because it bans Hydration Vaporeon as well, which is a viable OU Pokemon that has not been proven broken. This is as bad as banning Sand Veil/Snow Cloak to make Garchomp weaker. The problem is with the Pokemon, not the ability. If Hydration+rain was inherently broken on anything OTHER THAN Manaphy, then Vaporeon would be broken. If you can prove Vaporeon to be broken with it, then sure, I'll go along with you. Until then, don't suggest such an incredibly harmful precedent.
People don't want to ban Sand veil/Snow cloak to nerf Garchomp. They want to ban it because it is luck based, contributes nothing other than luck to the metagame, and takes away from someone's choice to choose a 100% accurate move rather than a not perfectly accurate but more powerful counterpart. And most who support banning it also feel it should've been in evasion clause from the start but it got away since that would have meant banning several pokemon.
As for hydration+drizzle, the reason Aldaron's proposal was made is not becuase there was 1 Uber pokemon under rain who swept teams, but it turned swift swimmers into super-HO pokemon. One alone usually could be taken out, at a cost to the check, but the fact there was a team of them allowed checks to be defeated and made rain into a super-HO type of TEAM, which is what was banned in Aldaron's proposal. So no, no hydration+drizzle ban.
- Status