We do not ban because things bring nothing to the meta and/or are irritating and.or have no strategic value. We ban them because they break the game. If confuse ray had a 50% of KOing a poke without giving them the chance to switch out, you can sure as hell bet it would be banned. But things like Sand Veil and Confuse ray rarely, if ever, decide matches outside of highly specialized situations or when using a very poorly made team, and thusly, should not be banned
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?
- Thread starter Philip7086
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As I've pointed out previously, Inconsistent was not statistically broken per se, it simply brought nothing of value to the meta and made it more luck reliant. Evasion in general is likewise not broken statistically but is still banned. OHKO moves statistically are not broken but break the concept of countering, so fair play there.
We can indeed ban things because they make the meta not enjoyable - if most people hate a meta people will stop playing it and the community would die. Even if not broken, if something brings nothing beneficial to the meta and makes it less skill-based, then it a reasonable candidate for a ban.
SV and CR can easily cause one crucial turn of miss or hitting yourself that can lose you the match, just as easily as paralysis, crits, or missing with SE can do the same. By that merit there is nothing to distinguish them from other factors in the game.
Inconsistent was always broken, and is broken even in ubers. How can you possibly say that a strategy in which one gets either an evasion or speed boost and then goes on to sweep or BP without any skill at all. Broken things are the things that are banned. That's a fact
Again, I'll reiterate that it has been statistically proven that Inconsistent was not broken in terms of the chance of getting the boosts you need. More explicitly, if countered appropriately, more often than not an Inconsistent based strategy should not pay off - hence making it not broken as it will not lead to anyone using it automatically gradually rising up the ladder. But the fact is that sometimes Inconsistent lucks out and you get exactly the boosts you need (admittedly not based upon your own skill) and this luck based benefit is what makes it detrimental to the metagame rather than broken. Banned =/= Broken. That is all I am saying.
Here's a statistic for you. If you lead of with an inconsistent user, you will have at the very least 6 opportunities to get the boosts you need, usually more. That is at the very least a 86.7% chance of getting a boost that allows you to sweep. How is that not broken?
Notice that I referred to "if countered appropriately" in my post. Ie. if you immediately bring in a phazer, Taunter, Hazer, MH poke, Clear Smog user or similar to force the Inconsistent user out. In this scenario, as I explained, it is statistically more probable that you will not get the boost you need before being removed from the field forcibly, having your boosts erased, or being forced out. As with any strategy, if you have (and use properly) the correct counter then you have a good chance of beating it. That is how it is not broken in of itself.
Only an idiot would lead with an Inconsistant user. Oh wait. Carry on.
Except that most of its "counters" (which were unreliable at best) made you significantly weaker against all other teams. That's still broken.
I have to agree with masterful.
Getting free boosts by spamming Sub + Protect IS broken.
So broken,that it allows a Bidoof to sweep a team of Ubers.
Benlisted,just tell me one single mon that can consistently counter...Inconsistent.
There aren't any,are they? It's broken.
No counters. No checks.
They have 6 chances to set up...you're going to lose unless you get SUPER lucky.
Getting free boosts by spamming Sub + Protect IS broken.
So broken,that it allows a Bidoof to sweep a team of Ubers.
Benlisted,just tell me one single mon that can consistently counter...Inconsistent.
There aren't any,are they? It's broken.
No counters. No checks.
They have 6 chances to set up...you're going to lose unless you get SUPER lucky.
Wow. I am in awe. With such a witty, clever, well-thought-out argument, my point is forever defeated. Oh wait, no it's not. Because all you did was make a pathetic personal attack on my intelligence, despite the fact that I was not suggesting anything, and rather stating a fact. I have swept 6-0 something around 20 ubers teams by leading with an Inconsistent Smeargle, and being a Protect-spamming baby. That should not be happening in a balanced and fair meta. So next time you try to diss me, make sure you have a clue what you're talking about. Thank you :)
Admittedly, very little can counter Inconsistent 100% of the time (Unaware mons being one, and No Guard ones also if they have a Phazing move or priority). However, as I have said and seemed to have been misinterpreted, statistically, Inconsistent is nowhere near uncounterable. Immediately bringing in one of the things mentioned in my last post and repeatedly using Roar etc on the Subbing turn will more often than not allow you to remove them from the field before they get boosts needed to do significant harm to your team. So contrary to your point Kefka, if you counter appropriately, they are going to fail with their Inconsistent user unless they get lucky.
Admittedly, running 6 Inconsistent abusers and bringing your back in repeatedly means you have more chances to get lucky, but hazards, fast Toxic users, etc can all screw over an Inconsistent based strategy.
The free boosts is annoying, but arguably not broken as you leave yourself open to being phazed etc while you hope to set up, given that none of its abusers have stellar all round stats initially. Also, there is nothing but our own prejudices to base a statement like "Bidoof shoudn't be sweeping Ubers" on. Why shouldn't it?
You can't phaze if you can't hit, and I always ran AP Espeon on my inconsistent team as a BP receiver
Unaware mons are usually weak (Quagsire in particular will get raped by any Octillery running Energy Ball, and it doesn't like Toxic either), still have to deal with Speed and Evasion boosts, and aren't very useful against most other teams. How many No Guard users have phazing moves? Pretty sure none. And priority attacks are weak enough that they won't be much use if the Inconsistent user gets a Defense boost.
Assist Power on Espeon with Magic Mirror is illegal. Just to tell you. Egg move legality issues. Also. I'm not denying that inconsistent isn't broken. It's just not consistently broken. In other words its inconsistent. Assist Power Smeargle is proof of this. There's something wrong when a Pokemon with 20 Base SpA can 2HKO Specially Defensive Jirachi and OHKO non SpDefensive Jirachi with an UnSTABed Psychic-type move after some passive set up. But it isn't uncommon where Smeargle gets tons and tons of bad stat changes and becomes useless.
EDIT: OH yeah. Dream world :P. Smeargle isn't released yet DX.
However in order to safely pass to Espeon you need to avoid being Phazed/Taunted beforehand. If you are facing an imminent phaze - you sub as the phazer switches in, protect for one more turn, then pass otherwise you risk the Phaze. This is by no means a gamebreaking amount of boosts to be able to be safely passing to Espeon, who is very much counterable by a number of mons even at +2 in two stats.
EDIT @ Voodoo Pimp: Arguably Unaware mons are a good utility counter against a lot of setup sweepers in general. Machamp may get Overhead Throw this gen but fair play if not. And true, priority moves are weak, but along with hazards, subs and passive damage they can work well to help wear down an inconsistent user.
I can't see assist power smeargle actually sweeping ubers. Just like how I've seen stories of Octillery sweeping everything in sight. Water absorb (yes yes, dreamworld. Much like Smeargle) Suicune shuts down Inconsistent octillery easily, since Octillery can't actually do anything back. Yeah, suicune can't do much to Octillery, but you aren't getting swept.
Red card works great for forcing them out the first time and being prepared for them to come back in. PP stall deoxys-defense form handles every inconsistent sweeper and is probably the only pokemon in the game who can boost alongside them (they'll eventually struggle. Sub until they kill themselves).
I can see why inconsistent was banned, sure. But much like several elements of pokemon smogon has banned, people seem to forget the reason they were banned to begin with. They also overhype them (Garchomp).
Red card works great for forcing them out the first time and being prepared for them to come back in. PP stall deoxys-defense form handles every inconsistent sweeper and is probably the only pokemon in the game who can boost alongside them (they'll eventually struggle. Sub until they kill themselves).
I can see why inconsistent was banned, sure. But much like several elements of pokemon smogon has banned, people seem to forget the reason they were banned to begin with. They also overhype them (Garchomp).
This is assuming +evasion or +speed, both of which make phazing/taunting impossible or very unlikely
Unaware Mons lose horribly to Assist Power smeargle, or anything with Assist Power for that matter, since Unaware doesn't negate AP boosts.
EDIT: Why is this conversation happening, again?
And if you don't get either or sometimes both of these boosts then phazing etc becomes very easy, which is the exact point I've been making. Don't forget that these can also drop by -1, making a phaze or taunt even easier.
@Idunno, fair play, I was only listing a general group of things which make beating a lot of Inconsistent strats easy. Some will fail against certain abusers and be better against others (Mach Punch will hurt Smeargle much more than Octillery, for example).
Unaware still isn't a reliable counter, though, for the other reasons I mentioned. Overhead Throw doesn't work through subs. Likewise, priority is useless if it can't break their sub - if you use it after a regular attack, then you give them a free turn to attack you. Who's going down first?
You may not have seen it, but it's happened. Suicune has to deal with Octillery's second attack somehow (it's not likely to be running Rest without Sleep Talk, so it's vulnerable to Toxic as well). Deoxys-D maybe, but that relies on them not getting massive attack before you can boost up.
Fair enough on your first two points. On the last, I primarily referred to priority in terms of helping wear down the user's HP (attack the sub and break it one turn if slower, use priority the next as they sub up) but admittedly if doing under 25% it may not be too much help.
Inconsistent is not broken. So why was it banned? Oh, that's right, it's not fun to play against. It's cheap. It makes certain Pokemon better than it has been arbitrarily decided they should be.
In fact, yes. The fact that it is in the game is reason enough to allow it. But even more to the point, where does this idea that it adds no strategy to the game come from? Choosing Sand Veil on your Pokemon denies it its alternate ability. Garchomp loses the 1/8 damage on contact moves, Gliscor loses his poison healing, Sandslash loses his 30% sand power boost, etc*. Choosing one of these is a strategic tradeoff. If you're going to choose Sand Veil, you'd better make sure that your strategy makes use of it, or else you've wasted your ability.
*Admittedly not all of those abilities have been released yet, but in all likelyhood they will eventually, and this argument will return.
In fact, yes. The fact that it is in the game is reason enough to allow it. But even more to the point, where does this idea that it adds no strategy to the game come from? Choosing Sand Veil on your Pokemon denies it its alternate ability. Garchomp loses the 1/8 damage on contact moves, Gliscor loses his poison healing, Sandslash loses his 30% sand power boost, etc*. Choosing one of these is a strategic tradeoff. If you're going to choose Sand Veil, you'd better make sure that your strategy makes use of it, or else you've wasted your ability.
*Admittedly not all of those abilities have been released yet, but in all likelyhood they will eventually, and this argument will return.
Stupid argument is stupid. Inconsistent would have still been broken if it were on stuff like Garchomp and Scizor. It would have been even more broken, in fact. You are right, though, that it isn't fun to play against. Remember, this is a game. If something makes the game less fun for everyone except the person using it, then why should we keep that thing?
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It's a stupid ability.
Tell me how you plan to consistently stop it? You can't. Period.
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It also limits certain pokemon's movesets.
I.E. Gliscor can no longer have Stealth Rock or Roost.
Some Pokemon would be limited, but Gliscor isn't one of them, as it always has the option of using Hyper Cutter as its ability.
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