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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

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The biggest problem I have with Dory is that it requires a counter as well as 4 specific revenge killers (breloom, roobushin, hitmontop, azumarill) to be 100% safe from a sweep. There are times when your main counter to something has taken a beating from something else and is no longer able do its job.
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The issue is that with Team preview you should be able to see that "O shit Excadrill is on my opponents team, better keep that Gliscor safe" rather than letting your Gliscor get fucked over late in the game and then whinge when you get swept (im not attacking you personaly I am just speaking in general terms)

I believe Chou made a similar mistake vs Panamaxis when he left his Gliscor to get weakened opening it up for Excadrill to sweep in his Warstory. Just keep your counters safe and everything should be fine.

EDIT

Chomp I think is O.k (Sand Veil is a bitch though) expecialy with Lati@s being so common.

Latios I have never really had trouble with and my Tyranitar owns it anyway.
 
ginganinja said:
The issue is that with Team preview you should be able to see that "O shit Excadrill is on my opponents team, better keep that Gliscor safe" rather than letting your Gliscor get fucked over late in the game and then whinge when you get swept (im not attacking you personaly I am just speaking in general terms)

I believe Chou made a similar mistake vs Panamaxis when he left his Gliscor to get weakened opening it up for Excadrill to sweep in his Warstory. Just keep your counters safe and everything should be fine
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I realize that but there are teams built around getting a late game dory sweep by forcing you to send out those counters early to get fucked up. Because my gliscor is not on the team for the sole purpose of countering dory. It's also there to counter a bunch of other stuff for example blaziken or roobushin etc (gliscor counters like half the physical threats in OU).

So really team preview or not, you have no choice but to send your counter out early because that's your counter and it has to cover multiple threats.
 
I realize that but there are teams built around getting a late game dory sweep by forcing you to send out those counters early to get fucked up.
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Well, many teams are built around eliminating a pokemons counters so X could sweep. It does not make X broken though. For example in Gen 4 I used Empoleon with Toxic Spikes to break past Blissey and Vaporeon. When it worked Empoleon swept. However this does not make Empoleon broken.
 
ginganinja said:
Well, many teams are built around eliminating a pokemons counters so X could sweep. It does not make X broken though. For example in Gen 4 I used Empoleon with Toxic Spikes to break past Blissey and Vaporeon. This does not make Empoleon broken.
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The problem as I mentioned is 2-fold. Breaking past a counter is only part of the issue. It's the sheer difficulty in revenge killing it after it has broken past your counter. It really doesn't matter that toxic spikes allows empoleon to get past blissey because even though it has, there are any number of other things that will stop it from sweeping your team. With dory, there's 4, 2 of which aren't even that commonly used because they're not that great.

I hate that every team needs to have gliscor + breloom or gliscor + roob or rotom-W + breloom or some other similar combination of 2 pokemon just so it doesn't sweep.
 
The existence of Lati@s prevents Chomp from sweeping as well as he did last gen, but what else?

I was about to say something along the lines of needing tyranitar to make Latios less of a threat before I remembered that everyone is already using Tyranitar everwhere already. Is an otherwise problematic pokemon no longer a threat because Tyranitar kills it? Latias was still killed by T-tar last gen.
 
It really doesn't matter that toxic spikes allows empoleon to get past blissey because even though it has, there are any number of other things that will stop it from sweeping your team
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Yeah? there ain't much that can Stop Emp once it gets going.

Also remember that people run pokemon together that break down there counters. For example you could run 2 physical sweepers that are both walled by Gliscor. You sac one to weaken Gliscor and the other KO's it. Again this does not make either pokemon broken. Yes Excadrill is tough to revenge. I'm not denying that. However it has its counters and checks and you don't need to run double counters to check it.
 
ginganinja said:
Yes Excadrill is tough to revenge. I'm not denying that.
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That's exactly why it is broken. To me, it's broken the same way the swift swim sweepers were broken. They had their counters but once those counters were gone through repeated attacks, then it's pretty much over because their sweep could not be checked by sending in something faster to revenge kill.
 
astrohawke said:
That's exactly why it is broken. To me, it's broken the same way the swift swim sweepers were broken. They had their counters but once those counters were gone through repeated attacks, then it's pretty much over because their sweep could not be checked by sending in something faster to revenge kill.
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You know, the same could be said of almost any Pokemon. If you build a team that is designed to set X up to sweep by luring and destroying its countters then X isn't broken. That just means you built a good team.
 
khz said:
You know, the same could be said of almost any Pokemon. If you build a team that is designed to set X up to sweep by luring and destroying its countters then X isn't broken. That just means you built a good team.
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I believe he's saying that Excadrill is not only hard to counter, but even to revenge kill. I have to say that he's partially correct because if you lose your primary Dory counter then chances are you're going to be swept by the mole.

I said partially because:
1) as you said many teams play offensive combos just to weaken Pokemon X with Pokemon Y, and then sweep with Pokemon Z, and that doesn't make broken neither Pokemon Y nor Pokemon Z;
2) Excadrill NEEDS sand to sweep effectively. This means that as long as you can keep control of the weather, with your own weather changer, you're not going to be swept by Excadrill;
3) Excadrill resists bullet punch and sucker punch, but it's weak to mach punch and aqua jet, meaning that strong priority user will usually manage to take it down if it has taken any prior damage.

For the above reasons I don't think that Excadrill is broken and don't tell me that having to pack your own weather changer makes the mole automatically broken, as the current metagame IS centered about keeping control over the weather (even with the drizzle+switf swim ban).
 
Yeah there are a few more ways outside of Gliscor/Skarmory + Mach Punch. If there isn't any sand in the first place, it can't sweep. And unlike Kingdra, it's worthless outside of its weather. You also don't have to use Ninetails/Abomasnow/Politoed. Several Mischievous Heart users can change the weather, and a few others are bulky enough to take unboosted attacks, because Excadrill doesn't always have time to use Sword Dance. Sableye can use priority WoW. People might even start using berries on like a Swampert to easily survive an EQ and ko with Waterfall because this thing is not bulky. Or even better, something like an Empoleon with Balloon can come in on EQ, resist Rock Slide/X-Scissor/Return and use Surf or Aqua Jet.

Anyways in my personal experience with my numerous teams, I've only been swept in the end maybe 2-3 times and that's usually when my counters were gone. In which case, my opponent was the superior player. I really don't think Excadrill is broken. I will say it is a bit centralizing though. But then again, sand is centralizing and Sxcadrill just happens to go hand in hand with it.
 
Doryuuzu might be not to broken, but in term of being suspect in every round, he sure did deserve to have that. Bulkier than machamp, Baloon to get rid of some check, Lefties for spinning, LO for power, and enough movepool complete with sand doubling its speed. It make such a great threat. Dory is probably the greatest sweeper and late game cleaner in this meta with its reliable offensive pressence. Thanks to team preview it become not as worse as it would be though.

But i think terra is worse in some cases. Hes weak to many priority more than dory but its raw power is just too insane. Lets just say its garchomp with worse typing in some cases with 108 speed. His Close Combat + Stone Edge Spam is just plain crazy
 
alphatron said:
I don't think inconsistent was banned unfairly, I just think that it wasn't impossible to handle by using viable pokemon otherwise (which is why I mentioned deoxys-d and suicune). I wouldn't have mentioned cune if not for rest.

In any case, aside from lati@s being in standard now, what has changed that allows Garchomp to roam standard now? The statement I hear is, "The metagame has become more agressive, so Garchomp doesn't seem as broken anymore". This statement doesn't necessarily specify anything. Nattorei is not tanking +2 fire fangs, especially if you opt to run garchomp in the sun. Niether is Skarmory. Jellicient is not taking +2 outrages either. Chomp is still hitting just as hard as he was able to hit last gen. This is not an arguement as to why Chomp should be banned, as I've had little trouble with him so far. I had even less trouble with him in Gen 4 and he was banned there anyway. So I would simply like to know how Garchomp has avoided suspect this time around. New checks and counters? The same can be said even easier about Ho-oh (whom I honestly believe should remain where he is. Any arguements I may have made for him at any time were just me playing Devil's advocate).

On the subject of Latios, I would also like to know what changed for him as well. How has fifth gen changed the metagame to allow Latios to fit better in standard. Unlike with garchomp, I honestly believe Latios should get the hell out of here.

Latios hits way too hard and can do way too much. Running a choice specs, he crushes switch ins underfoot with sheer power. We all know how hard specs draco meteor hits, with defensive steels losing around half of their health from it. On rain teams, Latios can just spam surf. Even steels will be losing a hefty amount from that. Ferrothorn? Outside of drizzle, hp fire is common on him. Ignoring the fact that trick cripples what already walls him, special walls such as Blissey and Snorlax get chewed up badly by things such as psycho shock. If Latios were a MTG card, he would read, "Flying, Destroy target permanant upon entering the battlefield"

Latios can be revenged, but you'll most likely lose something in the process or have a severely crippled pokemon. Ho-oh can be revenged simply by switching in an infernape, terakion, scarf tyranitar, gyarados, sand rush excadrill/sandslash, landorus, gliscor, kojondo, archeops, aerodactyl, wobbufett, rain boosted attacks, etc. But this doesn't matter because Ho-oh is an obvious powerhouse and is uber regardless. So I don't believe that switching in something that will cause Latios to switch out after it kills something justifies its spot in standard.

I'm not going to rant on his other sets simply because I lack the experience with them currently. Latios was shunned in place of rain and reuniclus last round. I wonder how long that attitude will last.
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1) Saying something can be countered by non-viable pokes means literally nothing. I can easily counter Rayquaza with Banded Mamoswine, but that kinda wastes a moveslot in most cases
2)Pretty much the premier Landlos set completely destroys Garchomp. The speed creep, especially in the genies, makes his troll speed stat significantly more manageable.
3)I agree, people will soon catch on to the fact that Sazando sucks, and then realize that Latios is freaking absurdly powerful and start abusing Specs and Scarf with him, and i have little doubt that it will be eventually banned.
 
To be honest, I'm surprised people use Hydreigon. It's COMPLETELY outclassed in EVERY aspect by Latios.

Should Latios get banned, I expect to see a rise in usage but aside from that I'm confused as to why people would use Hydreigon over Latios.
 
It can neither be insta-killed by Tyranitar, nor inst-killed by Sucker Pucnh. it also gets Flamethrower. That's it.

Dory is significantly easier to manage if it has to switch in on a bulky mon that can kill it. Say I've just killed my opps Dragonite with a Mamoswine Ice Shard, Dory comes in and either attacks with EQ doing ~65% or SD'd while I Icicle Drop doing around 65% following up with an Ice Shard that KO's.

As said Dory doesn't always have time to get SD up and when it doesn't the list of checks/counters widens significantly.
 
And uturn. On the other hand latios has much higher speed, slightly higher sp attack, and STAB psycho shock to go mixed without any ev splitting or -def nature. There is also the mach punch resistance. Yeah I'm going to go with latios, since he can just use hp fire (easy natty lure :P).

Dory has a bunch of checks that beat it even with an SD though. But the fact what it can set up upon is limited especially if it's running balloon does help make it strong OU material. Whether it remains that way when Sandslash comes out and sand teams get the super-HO edge rain teams sported last round...
 
SupremeDirt said:
Which reminds me, why do people still switch Nattorei into Latios? Is HP Fire just not that common or something?
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Latios is limited to four moves just like everything else. I don't know the statistics, but I can see why it would be popular to omit Hp in favour of a more powerful alternative. Or perhaps it's ignorance on the Nattorei players part. Either way, it doesn't matter at all in the context of the thread.

Furthermore, although Doryy is undoubtedly one of the better pokemon in OU, I'm very hesitant to support a ban mostly because of the OU weather balance situation. Although it's within the interests of everyone to have a more balanced and diverse metagame, in a way Dorry is probably one of the major counteractions to rain teams, and slower hyper offensive teams. Dorry is the boost sand teams received this gen, and as Hauter said it does rely on sand to be effective. There's a rough balance between the styles, and whenever something is removed or banned or adjusted, it always upsets the balance. It is conservative, but banning is a major action, and is extreme in and of itself. Unlike previous suspects, Doryy is not an obviously prevalent issue, and too interdependant to remove from the game with little thought. The same applies to most suspects, although any cases such as the former are augmented by their entwined relation to a strategy. That's just a fact, and it is a cause of the way that we ban aspects and attributes (even when talking of pokemon) instead of tackling the problem as a whole.
 
Which reminds me, why do people still switch Nattorei into Latios? Is HP Fire just not that common or something?
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I don't mind doing this simply because Latios will often lead with a DM. so I send in Natt and then switch right back out to scout if its choiced or not. Even if it uses HP Fire off the bat then T-Tar can either Trap and Kill it or I can set up with another pokemon
 
Latios uses momento on any non scarftar variant. Your opponent switches to a setup pokemon against your -2/-2 Tyranitar.
 
Brongaa said:
To be honest, I'm surprised people use Hydreigon. It's COMPLETELY outclassed in EVERY aspect by Latios.

Should Latios get banned, I expect to see a rise in usage but aside from that I'm confused as to why people would use Hydreigon over Latios.
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Not really.
Hydreigon's typing can be easier to fit on a team at times thanks to hit resistance to Dark,Ghost,and psychic.
He can still hit hard with just a scarf and doesn't auto-die against T-tar.
Hydreigon isn't COMPLETELY outclassed. He just serves a similar purpose.


On the topic of Excadrill,I don't think he's broken at all.
All it takes is:
1.A strong priority user.
2.A Bulky mon that can OHKO.
3.A Fighting type with a Balloon.

You can just slap on a balloon on most things and Exca wont stand a chance. I used Terrakion @ balloon and I used Rock Polish as he broke my balloon(Unless Exca was the last mon,then I would just CC) and I could out speed,OHKO him,and be ready to sweep.
 
Latios uses momento on any non scarftar variant. Your opponent switches to a setup pokemon against your -2/-2 Tyranitar.
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Yeah well thats what revenge killers are for

Also I have not yet seen Memento Latios since playing Gen V so th epoint is kinda moot anyway

EDIT

How much does a +2 brick break do to Terakion from Excadrill?
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you know most Excadrill run X Scissor or Return to either beat Gliscor or beat Grass and psychic types right?
 
wont OHKO iirc.
But exca while isnt broken is very reliable at clening up late game. Its check are rather small and your forced to use priority and even priority wont OHKO it when its not at +1 of at least base 130. Only 3 priority in the game can OHKO it actualy. Also removing its counter /checks is rather easy in this meta. Terakion + dory shove its check by sheer pwoer of CB Edge/Combat paving way for dory to clean the mess.
Dory's spinning prowess is also something to not underestimate. Also dory has one heck of a quite bulky stats for pokemon with low base stats and low defense due to its HP making it bulkier than machamp.

Yeah hes just very threatening. Hes a Top Tier and game defining one in gen 5
 
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