Metagame np: PU Stage 2 - Let's Go Crazy (Crown Tundra is out)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Specs

Getting in your own way
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
UUPL Champion
Council Minutes
Meta Discussion:
  • With Sawk, Galvantula, and Silvally-Dark getting banned very recently (see the post here), the council is keeping a close eye on the meta to see if anything else is in need of a vote moving forward.
  • :perrserker: is a very weird case where we initially voted to leave it banned but turned around and unbanned it a few days later. Council was and still pretty much is split 50/50 on the effect we expect. On the one hand, it is still very slow and not especially bulky despite the excellent defensive typing. Assault Vest is its most utility-providing set and also its least offensively threatening one, and we do have several new checks like Qwilfish, Runerigus, and Pincurchin to make up for losing Tangela. On the other hand, it's also hard to say it won't just break the tier again. None of its checks can consistently handle all of its sets reliably (except for Qwilfish which is always going to get chipped and die in basically the same fashion). Perrserker has powerful pivoting and lots of diverse options like Swords Dance and Taunt, and nobody could come up with a real guarantee that its checks would be effective and common enough to keep its presence in check. Ultimately the only person who changed their vote was MZ, which was due to the strong desire from the community to at least give Perrseker another chance to be balanced rather than any real change in opinion. We're going to be keeping a very close eye on Perrserker in the future, but for the time being it's back in action
  • :corsola-galar: was brought up, however we seem to be a bit unimpressed with it and don't feel it is an issue at the moment. It's prone to many things every time it comes in, most notably status and knock off. If it can avoid that though, it's tough to take down and has a ton of utility. Seems healthy to me and the rest of the council but please let us know if you feel differently!
  • Electric terrain is still being discussed. It's somewhat hard to tell how consistent it is, and we'll need some more evidence before voting again moving forward. However it is a potential concern with the amount of things that can abuse it. Again let us know your thoughts!
  • Council seems pretty happy with the non broken tools we got from shifts. Building has been fun and testing everything out has been nice after the somewhat stale meta we previously had.
  • Some personal picks I've been liking: :alcremie: is a solid option atm. Very splashable and has a lot of options for whatever you need it to do on a build. :jolteon: has impressed me a lot, being able to reliably out speed fast threats like Rapidash-Galar (or gorse for those who are cultured), Dugtrio-Alola, Mr.Mime Galar, ect. Jolteon also has some techs to hit ground types like Weather Ball + Rain Dance. :cramorant: is a fun mon to use and a solid defogger. Gulp missile shenanigans are cool and the dual stab is very effective rn.

VR and Other Votes:
  • The VR has been locked for now. However we're either going to be holding a vote for the new drops + some other changes, or making a list of High Tier, Mid Tier, and Low Tier options because of how much the meta has changed. Stay tuned!
  • As previously mentioned the council voted on Sawk, Galvantula, Silvally-Dark, Pincurchin, Cursola, Alcremie, Exeggutor, Kangaskhan, Silvally-Poison, Silvally-Bug, and voted to have Perrserker unbanned. Sawk, Galvantula, and Silvally-Dark were banned, and Perrserker was unbanned!
  • We hope you all liked the format of the voting, I personally think it looks a lot better to keep things all on site and not have to navigate Google sheets.
Forum Happenings:
  • Round one of the Official Room Tour Playoffs went up. There are some big names there, exciting!
  • Week six of Snake went up, lots of highlight matches as usual.
  • Finals of the ADV PU TOURNAMENT are up, go root for who you want to win!
  • Sign ups for the World Cup of PU will be going up on October 18'th, and the Tournament should start on the 1'st of November. Akir and tlenit will be co-hosting! Hope you're all looking forward!
 
So after the ban of Sawk, Galv and DarkVally I wanted to put out my thoughts of the meta we now have. (hopefully in one post this time with TL;DR at the end of each section if it’s too long)

Rain Teams
:ludicolo::drednaw::golduck::liepard::qwilfish::cramorant::jolteon::seaking::beartic::meowstic:

Getting rid of Galvantula seems like a good action initially, but SW helped to deal with rain teams making common scarfers or generally fast pokemon deal with the swift swimmers, which can now terrorize the tier without worrying about other weathers disrupting them. Water immunities are non-existent in the tier right now (besides Lapras) and don’t want to face the swimmers because they can’t take giga drain\stone edge.
Also, adding a fast electric to abuse Thunder not missing in rain is another way to help vs some of the Water Absorb mons, with the added power from the common Electric Terrain (will have its own part in this post).
There’s no viable way to stop rain from coming up- Choice Scarf (!) Hitmonchan has a chance at OHKOing Liepard with Mach Punch(and I don’t think anyone should run a scarf on chan)and it can’t be taunted by an opposing Liepard. This leaves First Impression, an uncommon move in the metagame right now.
There is the option of running Quick Feet Jolteon to outspeed the rain sweepers guaranteed, but it seems like a niche pick and you need a free turn to actually get the Quick Feet activated (as well as not being able to deal with Ludicolo).
Therefore, I suggest that the council will put damp rock on their watch-list at the very least, or even have a discussion about banning it (as Drizzle is already banned from higher tiers and heat rock is banned from this tier for similar reasons- though I acknowledge the difference between sun setting and rain setting in the tier).
From hanging around in the PU room for a while I saw that there is a big portion of the player-base that wants to see rain limited or basically gone- since it’s just broken.

TL;DR- Rain is broken right now.

Electric Terrain
:pincurchin::jolteon::drifblim::swoobat::liepard:(:raichu::manectric:)

I read what the council members wrote as their reasoning to ban\not ban it. In my opinion, Pincurchin is an ok pokemon at most. if it’s offensive, you can get rid of it with any ground type since it’s very slow. If it’s defensive, it will hazard stack- which can be dealt with easily by defog or spin. This is of course the case with no Electric Terrain up. With Terrain, It and it’s fellow electrics just mow through everything, with Manectric taking care of grass types (even though Jolteon can OHKO leafeon with life orb after rocks), and you can have another teammate take care of the ground types, which are quite slow and mostly specially frail (I know, Stunfisk exist) with jolteon 2HKOing Alolan-Duggy with unboosted Shadow Balls. Just use Lilligant, Leafeon or even Swoobat with Giga Drain or Energy Ball for the rest and you’re good. I already posted my thoughts about the centralizing effects of Electric Terrain before the council vote, and I think it’s still the case.
Therefore, I suggest that the council will look into banning Electric Surge and NOT Pincurchin. I honestly don’t see a scenario where Pincurchin is the biggest threat to the tier because of it’s stats or movepool on their own. Banning Pincurchin itself just seems like a way to sweep the problem under the rug, and getting rid of the terrain abusers ' way of abusing terrain will put them back in check.
Side note- Electric terrain prevents sleep, so don’t pair it with Sleep Powder or Rest. I guess it’s also a good counter to Throh, Type:Null, Dubwool and Lilligant. It always makes me laugh.

Electric terrain is still being discussed. It's somewhat hard to tell how consistent it is, and we'll need some more evidence before voting again moving forward. However it is a potential concern with the amount of things that can abuse it. Again let us know your thoughts!
While I do agree it's hard to tell how consistent it is, I can most definitely say that when Jolteon can OHKO Morpeko with Magnet Rising Voltage and 2HKO Every grass type that would at least check in under normal circumstances- you can see something here is wrong.
And thats only one of the many examples I can give from abusing terrain.

Examples:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1198276046-q2viua2aicfrvnw5df5c5rpmbqennuqpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1198677725-9fh057omttvkl8xnjd4uj4u4w6zsmk8pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1198702359-ycx9r3dhwbzcrx4o8729mdobr3vp95jpw

TL;DR- Electric Terrain is unhealthy for the tier, Pincurchin should stay with Lightning rod only.


Now for the drops\unbans:

Perrserker :perrserker:

I think the unban was a bit too soon seeing as the tier is a mess right now, and it will have competition in being the physical breaker with Kangaskhan and Boufallant. Dusknoir, Sandslash, G-Corsola and Gourgeist can usually 1v1 it, as it needs to choose between running Seed Bomb and Throat Chop, But it could give up on U-Turn, as Iron Head and CC are very much needed. In my opinion the unban should’ve happened with the other unbans or later down the road. I think it will be banned, since steel is a strong type in this meta and it has a good ability with an excellent atk stat and good coverage.
It also struggles vs special attackers such as Manectric, Flareon and Heatmor (that don’t really care about it) and even Cramorant, Swoobat and the Silvallys if they have Flamethrower, so I could definitely understand people who think it should stay.

TL;DR- Perrserker is a big wild card, we’ll have to see how the tier will turn out. I personally hope it stays.

Cursola :cursola:

Seems like it is shaping to be a sash lead, which is indeed interesting and somewhat counterable. Taunt and revenge-killing with priority\scarfer\base 110 speed mons seem to be the main ways to deal with it, along with not hitting it on the physical side. Still, it’s a huge threat and it’s spatk stat is very scary.
Obviously, it struggles on the physical side, and with all the physical threats we have in the tier- it’s going to struggle quite a lot.

Silvallys :silvally-bug::silvally-poison::silvally-ice::silvally-rock:

Silvally has a huge movepool and a great stab 120 BP attack with SD and a lot of support and even pivoting. Very versatile, very strong and it has a great speed tier. You can basically make it deal with it's counters- something I'm sure rises up whenever the Silvallys are being discussed about.
IMO they should all be banned from PU (even though ice is lower than pu) until the power level in the tier gets higher.

Ferroseed :ferroseed:

A solid pokemon in the tier, not too overpowered for a decent team, seeing as KO, CC and fire coverage are common enough. Sure, it’s annoying, but that has been true for ages.
Gives us another steel type and more rocks and spikes options.
It’s here to stay.

Alcremie :alcremie:

The future isn’t looking good for this sweet gal with all the physical steels running around rn. Sure, it gets Mystical Fire, but it wants to have Recover, CM, D-Gleam and sometimes Acid Armor, Stored Power and Aromatherapy. it can’t do it all and you can usually counter it with a toxtect Klinklang or A single iron head from Perrserker. To me it seems underwhelming. If it sets up you’re often in trouble, but all in all- a great pokemon for the tier.

Jolteon :jolteon:

I don’t think that we can properly evaluate if it’s broken while terrain is still in the tier. However, it’s still very powerful and very fast and has ghost coverage which helps in this tier.
It’s pretty much a one trick pony- specs, life orb, magnet- it just wants more power.
Right now it’s very common on terrain and rain teams because of the sheer power it has and the power boost it gains from terrain+Rising Voltage\Thunder.
If Electric Surge won’t get banned, it will go to PUBL.

Exeggutor :exeggutor:

It’s back and this time it has counters in the form of steel types and some flying types.
Started seeing it once Galv and DarkVally were banned, mostly specs, scarf and Leech Seed+Protect. A nice addition to the tier, don’t see a reason to re-ban it in the near future with Klang and Bouf in the tier.

Runerigus:runerigus:

Gives Gourgeist and Dusknoir some good competition as a bulky offensive\supportive ghost pokemon.
A good rocker and t-spiker with strong STAB moves, that can somewhat deal with Kang and Guts pokemon (mainly Throh) due to Wandering Spirit.
Since it doesn’t get any recovery moves it’s easy to wear it down over time, which means it’s not too much for the tier to handle.
As long as NU don’t want it, we get to keep it. Absolutely fine with me.

Avalugg :avalugg:
It’s a defensive wall that provides spin support and has good recovery. Going to be featured on stall teams quite often.
This generation gave it a big buff with HDB, but it’s still not going to be the star of PU in the near future. A good addition to the tier.

Corsola-Galar :corsola-galar:

A good defensive addition to the tier, though it’s very reliant on it’s eviolite, which it doesn’t want to lose. Can cripple physical attackers easily with WOW and Strength Sap, while dealing some consistent with Night Shade. It's also quite easy to deal with via KO and status so it seems balanced.
However, it can’t do much else- and it doesn’t need to. It does it’s job pretty well, and I think it will fit in the tier just fine.

Quagsire:quagsire:

It’s the same thing as always. A good physical wall, not the best right now.
I really don’t know what else I can say.


Qwilfish :qwilfish:

A versatile pokemon that can go for both offense and support, with a life orb Swift Swim set or a defensive Intimidate set. Gives the tier more Spikes and T-Spikes options, along with Thunder-Wave, Taunt and Destiny-Bond to better support it’s team.
An amazing addition to the tier, Glad to see it joined us.

Cramorant :cramorant:

I was waiting for this goofy bird to join us. It has a good speed tier in the tier with good special stats, and even a good attack stat for coverage options. has a nice matchup against the plethora of ground, grass and fighting types in the tier, and it’s ability gives it some offensive pressure.
Overall, I think it will fit in PU even though there are a million electrics here right now.

:bouffalant::klinklang:

They were here like a week ago, they’re the same but Bouf has competition with Kang and both have more checks in Quagsire\ Ferroseed\ Runerigus\ Qwilfish\ Corsola-G\ Avalugg (they don’t all apply to both klang and bouf).
IMO they could have stayed here before, they did nothing wrong.

Obviously, That's what I think. I would like to hear what people have to say about the drops as well and see how the tier shapes out.
Also I might've missed a few things- there's so much I can think of at once.
 

termi

bike is short for bichael
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
Rain Teams
:ludicolo::drednaw::golduck::liepard::qwilfish::cramorant::jolteon::seaking::beartic::meowstic:

Getting rid of Galvantula seems like a good action initially, but SW helped to deal with rain teams making common scarfers or generally fast pokemon deal with the swift swimmers, which can now terrorize the tier without worrying about other weathers disrupting them. Water immunities are non-existent in the tier right now (besides Lapras) and don’t want to face the swimmers because they can’t take giga drain\stone edge.
Also, adding a fast electric to abuse Thunder not missing in rain is another way to help vs some of the Water Absorb mons, with the added power from the common Electric Terrain (will have its own part in this post).
There’s no viable way to stop rain from coming up- Choice Scarf (!) Hitmonchan has a chance at OHKOing Liepard with Mach Punch(and I don’t think anyone should run a scarf on chan)and it can’t be taunted by an opposing Liepard. This leaves First Impression, an uncommon move in the metagame right now.
There is the option of running Quick Feet Jolteon to outspeed the rain sweepers guaranteed, but it seems like a niche pick and you need a free turn to actually get the Quick Feet activated (as well as not being able to deal with Ludicolo).
Therefore, I suggest that the council will put damp rock on their watch-list at the very least, or even have a discussion about banning it (as Drizzle is already banned from higher tiers and heat rock is banned from this tier for similar reasons- though I acknowledge the difference between sun setting and rain setting in the tier).
From hanging around in the PU room for a while I saw that there is a big portion of the player-base that wants to see rain limited or basically gone- since it’s just broken.

TL;DR- Rain is broken right now.
I'm not quite sure what would make rain more problematic now than it was in the previous metagame - and I didn't hear anyone complaining about rain in that meta. Sure, we gained two new rain abusers in Qwilfish and Jolteon, but neither of these are game changers when Ludicolo and Drednaw still strike me as the more immediately dangerous rain abusers. Furthermore though, we gained several new forms of counterplay: Ferroseed can check all rain sweepers aside from Superpower Drednaw decently enough, Quagsire walls Drednaw and Qwilfish (and can either counter or check Jolteon depending on if it runs Boots or Specs), defensive Qwilfish can weaken physical rain sweepers with Intimidate and annoy them with status moves, and bulky Cramorant checks Ludicolo decently. Kangaskhan also deserves a mention, because while it can't directly switch into a sweeper, its Fake Out + Sucker Punch combo helps it in stalling out rain turns and revenge killing weakened sweepers. In addition to that, hazard stacking seems like a very viable strategy in this meta what with the great number of viable Spikers, and rain teams often do not find the time to get hazards off once they're up, while running HDB on your sweepers will noticeably impact their ability to score the OHKOs and 2HKOs they need.

This all is not to say that rain couldn't possibly be worth looking into, but I would need to see quality replays of rain in action where it becomes apparent that a player who has some measure of counterplay and who makes the right calls still gets overwhelmed by the strength of the opposing rain team. Until then I really don't see it as much more than a niche hyperoffensive playstyle that is heavily matchup-reliant.

Electric Terrain
:pincurchin::jolteon::drifblim::swoobat::liepard:(:raichu::manectric:)

I read what the council members wrote as their reasoning to ban\not ban it. In my opinion, Pincurchin is an ok pokemon at most. if it’s offensive, you can get rid of it with any ground type since it’s very slow. If it’s defensive, it will hazard stack- which can be dealt with easily by defog or spin. This is of course the case with no Electric Terrain up. With Terrain, It and it’s fellow electrics just mow through everything, with Manectric taking care of grass types (even though Jolteon can OHKO leafeon with life orb after rocks), and you can have another teammate take care of the ground types, which are quite slow and mostly specially frail (I know, Stunfisk exist) with jolteon 2HKOing Alolan-Duggy with unboosted Shadow Balls. Just use Lilligant, Leafeon or even Swoobat with Giga Drain or Energy Ball for the rest and you’re good. I already posted my thoughts about the centralizing effects of Electric Terrain before the council vote, and I think it’s still the case.
Therefore, I suggest that the council will look into banning Electric Surge and NOT Pincurchin. I honestly don’t see a scenario where Pincurchin is the biggest threat to the tier because of it’s stats or movepool on their own. Banning Pincurchin itself just seems like a way to sweep the problem under the rug, and getting rid of the terrain abusers ' way of abusing terrain will put them back in check.
Side note- Electric terrain prevents sleep, so don’t pair it with Sleep Powder or Rest. I guess it’s also a good counter to Throh, Type:Null, Dubwool and Lilligant. It always makes me laugh.


While I do agree it's hard to tell how consistent it is, I can most definitely say that when Jolteon can OHKO Morpeko with Magnet Rising Voltage and 2HKO Every grass type that would at least check in under normal circumstances- you can see something here is wrong.
And thats only one of the many examples I can give from abusing terrain.

Examples:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1198276046-q2viua2aicfrvnw5df5c5rpmbqennuqpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1198677725-9fh057omttvkl8xnjd4uj4u4w6zsmk8pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1198702359-ycx9r3dhwbzcrx4o8729mdobr3vp95jpw

TL;DR- Electric Terrain is unhealthy for the tier, Pincurchin should stay with Lightning rod only.
Electric Terrain teams are definitely a potential source of concern and we'll undoubtedly be having another vote on one or more aspects of these teams at some point in the future. That said, there's not any real chance we're gonna be banning the ability over the terrain setter or its abusers. Smogon's tiering philosophy states that complex bans - i.e. bans on things that are not individual Pokemon - should be avoided if possible. The case that Electric Surge is banworthy over the abusers or Pincurchin would have to show that Electric Surge is innately broken and that no other aspect of Pincurchin contribute to its potency as a support Pokemon for terrain abusers and that the problem doesn't lie with select abusers instead of the playstyle as a whole. The latter point could be argued if it turns out that any fast-ish Electric type with a usable SpA stat becomes overwhelming under Electric Terrain, although I do not believe this to be the case. The former point is even harder to defend however, because Pincurchin is very obviously not a Vulpix-esque mon where its sole purpose is to be sacked while it sets Sun (or in Pincurchin's case, ETerrain). Its serviceable bulk, access to recovery, access to hazards, and decent offensive presence all contribute to its ability to set Electric Terrain multiple times while also contributing to the team's defensive backbone. Electric Surge would likely not be much of a concern as an ability if it were given to, say, an Electric-type Vulpix, so I really don't see the argument for its ban beyond "we would like to keep Lighting Rod Pincurchin in the meta" which would only set a bad precedent for future tiering decisions.
 
A big problem with E terrain is that all of it's abusers die to a gentle breeze (ironically, unless it's an electric type attack) and Pinchy has no pivotting capabilities.

You see Pinchy, you start throwing out the strong attacks and how do Jolteon, Manectric etc switch in? It's far more threatening on paper than in practice.
 

Raahel

MANO TENGO FE
is a Tiering Contributor
Hello, I come to give some opinions about the tier right now

Kanga Spikes



Kangaskhan returns to the level after having been previously banned but now with more controls and responses for her such as Avalugg, Runerigus or Ferrosed, also that does not make it a bad pokemon in fact if it is played well in certain confrontations it can be very dangerous and can carry 3 If you want pokemon with their Double Edge + Fake Out EQ and Sucker Punch set, you can also try some fighting moves like Focus Punch, Power-up Punch or Drain Punch. What makes her fearsome is her ability to Late Game if there are dangers on the opponent's field, hence the term Kanga Spikes. Kangaskhan with Ferrosed or Qwilfish, even Sandslash or Roselia can make a good synergy thanks to spikes or hazards like Stealth Rock or Toxic Spikes. To finish I would say that Kangaskhan is not as broken as before and I think it is a good option in this metagame.

Electric Terrain



The Electric Terrain is good at the moment although the galvantula loss did do something significant, it is still a very good type of Team Pincurchin for hazards + a Swepper like Swoobat or Drifblim even Liepard + Support from pokemon like Manectric, Jolteon, Morpeko or Raichu make it a very good choice. The problem with Electric Terrain is durability since Pincurchin cannot gain momentum and is not a very good pokemon defensively so you have to know how to play your cards if you play Electric Terrain. It seems to me a very good archetype of teams and it is not so broken I would say that it is fine if you know how to play against it.

Other Things



Stall:
Stall teams can do very well in this metagame thanks to various additions such as Quagsire, Corsola-Galar, Avalugg, Runerigus and previously counted Pokemon like Togetic, Lickylicky etc. The truth is there will also be a lot of variety in the tier and I think the stall teams will be one of them.



Rain: Manual Rain is much better now as it has new abussers like Qwilfish, Jolteon or Cramorant + the ones that were previously like Ludicolo, Drednaw, Golduck, Seaking or Beartic. The truth is now much more variety in the rain team and I think they are a very good choice in the metagame.


Before finishing I want to show this team that I made a Kangaskhan Spikes + Work Up Silvally Poison team very good tbh, it can be improved a little but I liked how it turned out.


(click sprites for importable)

here some replays of the team:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1199056414
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1198491255-0kveeitbww5gzfvg3oj26gr3r46ds2fpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1198479285-dmtwg4vt4ku6kz83qhj1h0ht4krtxg1pw

Closing Words: To finish I have to say that this metagame is the best that PU has had in my opinion so far and the most balanced I see almost nothing more broken than another pokemon, with nothing more to say I will see you soon at the PUWC :psywoke:
 
Last edited:

MZ

And now for something completely different
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Council Minutes
Meta Discussion:
  • Let's talk briefly about how all the new mons we voted on in the last slate are doing. On the more broken side, :Pincurchin: has solidified itself as a very extreme threat in the eyes of the council, Electric Terrain support is insane for Seed sweepers like :Drifblim:, :Swoobat:, :Alcremie:, :Musharna:, etc. and Pincurchin on its own is ridiculously good at support and breaking. :Exeggutor: and :Kangaskhan: are polarizingly powerful threats with excellent set variety and very few good stops, the former preys on balance teams that opt to not run :Ferroseed: (and some sets can abuse even that) while the latter is a powerful anti-offense tool with good techs to overcome pretty much any checks like Toxic and Fire Punch. :Perrserker: remains a pretty incredible breaker, has some of the same slow and easy to KO issues as :Exeggutor: but Choice Band and SD sets are pretty amazing at doing whatever they want.
  • On the less broken side, :Cursola: is still a concerning threat in that pretty much nothing can switch in safely but hasn't been as popular of a pick and doesn't seem to be on the same level as :Perrserker: or :Exeggutor: quite yet. :Alcremie: remains a really fun and fairly balanced addition in the eyes of the council, a very welcome defensive presence. :Silvally: Bug and Poison are both pretty excellent but suffer from a high frequency of checks, particularly with how common and incredible :Corsola-Galar: and :Runerigus: are. Speaking of those two mons, they're really incredible defensive threats and it's not impossible we'll need to look at Calm Mind variants of the former or Iron Defense+Body Press+Rest variants of the latter but that's not a huge concern right now.
  • None of the other drops we didn't vote on have really come onto the radar. :Quagsire: :Qwilfish: :Cramorant: :Avalugg: :Jolteon: :Klinklang: :Bouffalant: are all good to fine in their own right but shouldn't be appearing on quickban slates any time soon unless something drastic changes for their place in the meta.

VR and Other Votes:
  • We will be having another quickvote this Sunday, and there will be rotating council members included.
  • What will be on the slate? :Exeggutor: :Kangaskhan: :Perrserker: for sure, we've got another week or so to evaluate how powerful they are but all really deserve the scrutiny since they're pretty much in their own class of strong. :Pincurchin: and Terrain in general needs some evaluation. Banning just Electric Surge is not an option since we have a single offender here, banning individual abusers is an option but there are concerns that even banning :Drifblim: and :Swoobat: would just lead to other abusers like :Rapidash-Galar: getting used. I don't think anything else will be voted on, it's possible something like :Cursola: ends up back on as well but those are the things we've been focused on so far.
  • I would like to get out a viability list sometime soon. Given how soon Tundra is coming a list is preferable to a full VR update right now, we'll likely shift back over to the VR after the September tier shifts. How soon the viability list comes out is merely a factor of how busy I am right now.

Forum Happenings:
 
Gonna be real for a bit, I might be completely wrong but I find that exeggutor has plenty of viable offensive checks in this metagame. Things like heatmor, the rimes, unfezant, raboot, bugvally, liepard, pinsir, and poison vally can all offensively deal with it to some extent. Defensive options are a bit meh other than spDef ferroseed, but mons like duskinoir and klinklang can take a hit and damage it or put it on a timer. Eggy is very strong but I feel that its poor typing and low speed hold it back a lot. Once again, a more experienced player can correct me, but i think eggy is fine for now. (if yall need calcs let me know so i can edit this post).

Don't have too much thoughts on the other things, Kanga I'm more on the banworthy side while perrserker I'd likely abstain. As for the electric terrain issue either ban pincurchin or electric surge. I'd prefer the latter but the former also works.
 

ManOfMany

I can make anything real
is a Tiering Contributor
Honestly most of the pokemon I expect to be broken have felt mostly fine. I've been looking really hard at :Kangaskhan: but when I'm running it I often face really consistent counterplay in terms of Runerigus, Ferroseed, Corsola-G, and Avalugg, all of which are top-tier mons as well as a high prevalence of Rocky Helm users. Additionally, hazard removal is so easy now that sweeping teams late-game with Fake Out requires significant work to accomplish when there are now a good variety of pokemon that can revenge kill Kangaskhan at full with no trouble. It's probably the best pokemon in the tier but nowhere near as overwhelming as I expected it to be.

:Exeggutor: I feel pretty much the same about as what Monky25 said above. It's an incredible breaker but it's not without switch-ins and does actually require some prediction to use. And offensive counterplay is fairly easy.

I am trying to be as unbiased towards :Perrserker: as possible as one of the people who originally asked for it to be unbanned. I have tried all its best sets- AV, Choice Band, SD and yet I really can't see the broken argument to any of them. AV gets chipped down really easily and has plenty of defensive counterplay, and Steel isn't really that spammable of a typing with Qwilfish, Stunfisk, Cramorant, and Pinchurchin. Not a lot of mons really give Perserrker breathing room anymore for setting up SD either.

:Avalugg: I was very concerned about due to its titanic physical bulk as it invalidates the majority of physical attackers in the tier, which is dangerous paired with special walls and status removers. In practice it has been a bit more passive than I would have liked, vulnerable to item removal/swapping, setup and a good amount of special attackers like Cramorant who don't care about its coverage. It is something to keep an eye on for the future though.


on the other hand,:Pincurchin: This thing is quite stupid as a solo pokemon already which makes it much more serious than Grookey. Rising voltage is an extremely stupid move and paired with Pinchurchin's coverage of Scald (hitting Ground-types) and respectable bulk it is a lot to handle. Grass-types do handle Pinchurchin well but some of Pinchurchin's best partners like Swoobat and Drifblim can easily use a lot of them as setup bait. I still would like to see more replays of terrain teams sweeping. Right now I am leaning towards this being unhealthy for the tier.
 

Deleted User 350996

Banned deucer.
I'd tend to agree with precedent posts: in my opinion none of these mons are banworthy unless maybe Kanga; they have a decent amount of check or counters with the recent additions of Runerigus/Corsola/Ferroseed/Quagsire/Qwilfish which really help in that way. However my ladder experience is not significant at all so I'm open to read different point of view.
Regarding Electric terrain, well all I can say is that e-Seed sets are annoying if you're not prepared and things like Musharna become really hard to stop. Swoobat is manageable I guess (/wink to Liepard or Rising Voltage Jolteon).
 

Hera

Make a move before they can make an act on you
is a Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
PUPL Champion
I would like to preface this by saying that I didn't really expect a quickban slate so soon after the most recent bans. Not only is Crown Tundra just a few weeks away, which will almost undoubtedly shake up the meta and cause some of the potential bans to be rendered mute, I thought that most of the unbans and drops were pretty balanced in the tier. The fact that Kanga, Eggy, Perrserker, and others are getting more than just a quick check-up really shocked me, but it's a pleasant surprise because now I get to talk about the PU meta some more!

The situation with Electric Terrain

pincurchin.gif
Jolteon_EpEc.gif
Manectric_EpEc.gif
Liepard_EpEc.gif
Drifblim_EpEc.gif
Swoobat_EpEc.gif


So after its brief stint in RU, Pincurchin is back, and with it, two new things: Jolteon, the fastest unboosted mon in the metagame with a solid SpA stat to boot, and Rising Voltage, a seemingly harmless 70 BP Electric-type move that gets boosted by double its power if the opponent is grounded. This has led to the creation of Terrain teams, centered around abusing either the terrain with Electric-types and Rising Voltage, or using special sweepers with the Electric Seed item in order to boost their physical bulk, letting them set up easier. These teams have quickly come to the forefront of the metagame as a potentially broken archetype, with the ability to deny defensive and offensive counterplay normally found to be good against hyper offensive teams.

First, allow me to get my personal opinion out of the way. I do not believe that Electric Terrain as a whole is worthy of a ban. I think there is enough counterplay within the tier to beat full Terrain teams. There are numerous Ground-type Pokémon (Runerigus, Quagsire, Sandslash, Stunfisk), SpDef walls (the AV mons like Dusknoir and Hitmonchan, Corsola-G, Type: Null, Lickilicky), other Electric-immune Pokémon (Seaking, Raichu, opposing Jolteon and Manectric), and simple Electric resists (Ferroseed, Appletun, all of the Gourgeists, Roselia) that are popular on almost all builds right now. Jolteon has Rain Dance + Weather Ball and Shadow Ball for coverage, and Manectric has Flamethrower, but often these two, and other Electric-types, struggle to break through a team's well built defensive core, or even random SpDef walls on balance teams. Being forced to run either LO or Specs for power means the breakers are either worn down quickly or lock themselves into an undesirable move, wasting precious Terrain turns. Not only that, but Pincurchin itself is quite abusable because of it's low speed. While it does have decent power and bulk, it lacks Volt Switch, meaning it has no safe way of bringing in said abusers without relying on a teammate or Eject Button. The most "problematic" parts of Terrain teams are the Seed sweepers, but they end up either being easily pressured (Alcremie, Swoobat) or are susceptible to defensive counterplay (Drifblim, Liepard).

However, I see that I'm in the unpopular opinion here, so rather than reiterating why it's fine, I'd rather look at the options the tier has in dealing with Terrain.
  • Obviously the most extreme of these would be banning Pincurchin. I don't think this is necessarily worthwhile, mostly because there are enough abusers that it's hard to single out a specific one as problematic, but not enough that the enabler is the problem. The tier is in a weird limbo when it comes to abusing Terrain: does it ban the abuser(s) or the enabler? This would solve the Terrain issue cleanly though.
  • The next, less extreme, option is banning Electric Surge, which keeps Pincurchin in the tier. This probably isn't an option because, as it was said above, there's only a single offender of the ability.
  • After this, it gets a little muddy. First, banning Drifblim and/or Swoobat and/or other Seed sweepers. These are obviously the most problematic abusers of the Terrain, and the first option I would personally be fine with. Swoobat is kinda uncompetitive from an objective standpoint, being able to snowball extremely fast if given even a single turn, and the Defense boost from Electric Seed patches up the one weak point of Swoobat. The rest probably aren't as bad under Terrain, but it was still worth mentioning.
  • Then, banning an item. Like the Drought + Heat Rock ban, except without Drought. Banning Terrain Extender would limit teams to 5 turns of Terrain, forcing them to bring in Pincurchin more often. My personal favorite option is banning Electric Seed, as that is what makes the most problematic parts of Terrain, well, problematic. This might be too complex a ban for Smogon though.
  • This may sound stupid, but banning Rising Voltage is also an option. The main reason why the breakers are so scary is because they get a 184 BP move that's boosted by STAB under Terrain, letting them break through their checks easier. This isn't an OM though, so it probably won't gain traction.
  • Finally, the tier has the option of inaction: nothing is banned. This is easily the most farfetched option, as the council and players have expressed that Terrain does need to be dealt with. However, if by some circumstance nothing does end up getting banned, it would be pretty funny.
So yeah, those are basically the options I could think of. I'm fine with any of these options, because as much as I believe Terrain isn't broken, I would not be mad if it was gone either.

Checking up on the unbans

Kangaskhan_EpEc.png
Exeggutor_EpEc.png
Perrserker_EpEc.gif
Silvally_EpEc.gif
Klinklang_EpEc.gif
Bouffalant_EpEc.png


I really don't have much to say here that hasn't already been said. Kanga is good, totally makes sense for it to be on the QB slate, but I feel that it's really underwhelming. Scrappy making it able to spam Normal-type moves doesn't mean much when the two most used Ghosts usually run PhyDef sets anyway. Toxic is great tech that lets it wear down its own checks akin to Klinklang pre-DLC, but then you're losing the power you could be having with Band or Silk Scarf. It's weird.

Eggy is pretty cool, but I think it suffers from the defensive Steel-type that's on every team. Only its physical moves can hit Steels super effectively, and I haven't seen those enough, or at all, to call the egg broken. Often I end up running Specs Glaceon on my teams over Eggy due to similar power (Eggy's Leaf Storm is only slightly more powerful as shown by the calcs below), but Glaceon has Shadow Ball, Water Pulse, a better raw SpA stat, and a better speed tier.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor Leaf Storm over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mawile: 261-309 (85.8 - 101.6%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Ice Beam (2 times) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mawile: 249-294 (81.9 - 96.7%)


Perrserker is a thing, I guess. I really like the versatility, the power, the movepool, etc. The offensive sets are great, but end up having to look for good matchups in order to succeed. But the most popular sets seem to be AV, which strike me as the most boring. It's great glue, but Perrserker has so many options under its belt such as Taunt, Swords Dance, Hone Claws, Iron Defense, and Amnesia. Why must it be so heavily limited with an Assault Vest to be consistent?

When it comes to the Silvallys, it's basically A Tale Of Two Cities. Silvally-Poison has cemented itself as one of the best Pokémon in the tier. Being a Silvally, it's granted access to a plethora of support moves, what's basically a 180 BP move for free, great coverage options, and a customizable EV spread. Very happy it's back in the tier, although the sweeper sets have me concerned with their ability to destroy unprepared teams. Silvally-Bug, while not bad, is simply outclassed by every Silvally form currently in the tier. The only thing it has going for it is being a Ground resist, but the two offensive Grounds (Marowak and Duggy-A) can easily 2HKO it with a coverage move, and it has to deal with getting 1/4 of its health chipped off by Rocks.

I can easily lump Klinklang and Bouffalant together because they both fit a similar mold: they were recently banned, then unbanned, and now suffer from being outclassed. Klinklang has cool offensive sets, but as a defensive Steel, most builds would rather run Perrserker, Ferroseed, or Mawile. Bouffalant doesn't like Kanga being in the tier, and while Bouff has sheer power on its side, it's very hard to beat the versatility and unpredictableness of Kangaskhan. They're not bad, in fact they're probably good, but New Toy Syndrome and builds favor the newer stuff.

Other thoughts

Um...not much else to say. Nothing in the tier really strikes me as broken. Sure, Ferroseed is annoying, and pairing it with Quagsire makes me want to tear my hair out, but yeah, I really like the tier in its current state. DLC didn't mess it up as much as I thought it would. Sorry if it seems like I'm tapering off, I'm just tired from typing about something I'm passionate about. Have a good day!

Bonus: Here's a Kanga set I'm really liking right now.
Kangaskhan @ Leftovers
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 12 HP / 20 Atk / 172 Def / 160 SpD / 144 Spe
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Earthquake
- Protect

-The HP EVs maximize Leftovers recovery.
-The SpD EVs with a Careful nature make sure Stunfisk doesn't break a Subsitute.
-The Speed EVs creep fully invested base 65s and all Alcremie spreads.
-The Defense EVs make sure a Ferroseed Gyro Ball doesn't break your Sub most of the time.
-Rest is dumped into Attack to make EQ that much stronger.
-EQ deals with Steels and stuff like Qwilfish that like switching into Kanga.
-Protect scouts, heals, and increases Toxic damage.
-Inner Focus is the only useful ability for the set.
 

soulgazer

I FEEL INFINITE
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
Council Minutes
Meta Discussion:
  • :alcremie: ended up in the last voting slate because there was concern that its ability to boost up and potentially solo teams is too much for the tier, but it ended up staying. What are your thoughts on it?
  • In the same vain, I think :lurantis: does the same thing with its ability to snowball a team by continuously boosting;
  • :perrserker: and :pincurchin: almost received the banhammer. The former because of its monstrous offensive presence and the latter because it allows Electric Seed abusers to run rampant and provides Electric-types with a nuke. Do you think we should revisit them after the DLC?
  • What has been your favorite drop so far now that the meta game has settled down a little bit? Mine is :runerigus:.

When is the next vote & Other Things:

Forum Happenings:

sorry im french
 
Last edited:
Here's my predictions on what NFEs we get from this.
Golbat aint staying here
Electabuzz / Electivire
Magmar
Dragonair
Combusken
Lairon
Metang
Gabite

that's it
 
I've been hyping for the adiction of Magmar to PU. While it has to compete with Heatmor and Raboot as a offensive fire-type, it mixes the former's power with the latter's speed, which is amazing imo.
Combusken also adds diversity as a physical fire-type thanks to its access to Swords Dance and Speed Boost.

Electabuzz's only real advantage over its electric-type competition is being able to hold Eviolite to augment its bulk. As for Electivire, Idk how long it would take of it to fall to PU (Luxray and Bouffalant landed on RU the first time), but I think it would be a great adiction to the tier.

As for the other NFEs... I guess Metang and Gabite would find solid niches, but that's about it.
 
Hi guys, I'm starting a collection to buy carbon monoxide detectors for the 6 members who voted DNB on Kangaskhan since they're huffing somethings I'm worried for their health.

Jokes aside, Avalugg is a solid counter, next best bet is Runerigus even he can only switch into one Choice Banded Double Edge. Ferrothorn dies to Fire Punch so doesn't count.
Edit: Kangaskhan can use Aqua Tail to 2HKO Runerigus actually, so thats and option to get past it, Shuckle and Crustle, who are some of the only mons that avoid the CB DE 2HKO.

I don't but any of the arguments at all actually; it wants hazards and we have several ways to remove them? That isn't an argument...

I have no particular opinion on banning Exeggutor, I've never had trouble with it but equally I've rarely seen it. I agree with not banning anything else.

Alcremie is too predictable to get away with setting up easily. If the CM set was one of it's many sets it might be different but that's all it has. Lurantis is a bit scarier, but has plenty of offensive answers.

I'd personally see Kanga gone but otherwise the tier is in a great place. Looking forward to it being ruined by DLC.

Defensive Gabite could be neat as a Rocker and Combusken will be dangerous.

Edit: Also my fav drop is Cursola. I've been running an AV set and the thing just doesn't care about Special damage at all. Tons of coverage to choose from, dies to literally any physical hit though.
 
Last edited:

Deleted User 350996

Banned deucer.
I'll be waiting for the incoming drops so my opinion will probably change but anyway here what I can tell so far:

  • :Alcremie: I've tried Specs but it was mediocre honestly, it seems much better as a setter. It's hard to revenge kill after some CM boosts if you can't Haze and its ability prevents Taunt/Encore. And Acid Armor can work too if you intend to run a mono-attack set, which makes it really solid. Fortunately we have Qwilfish and Poisonvally who are faster and can punish it before it's too late.​
  • :Lurantis: It can be scary but it's slow and thus can be easily countered if you don't waste too much turns. Mixed sets are annoying (don't switch your Ferroseed/Bouffalant into Leaf Storm because Superpower is coming), Knock Off/Superpower has interesting coverage while Aromatherapy/Synthesis are helpful (although I doubt it's standard but it should be mentioned imo). I don't know its value as a defogger tho.​
  • :Perrserker: Its speed is its main issue. I haven't seen web for a while while Trick Room is not so common. There are a few safe swich-in to the Band set but I think we still have solid options (Qwilfish/Runerigus) to deal with it.​
  • :Pincurchin: As I expected, its drop was handy for Jolteon in particular who dropped at the same time. Not only it brings Electric Terrain but it also support the team with Spikes/T-Spikes, can safely bring your set-up mon with Memento and have good offensive presence with Rising Voltage/Hydro Pump/Scald. Bulky and Unburden mons appreciate the Electric Seed bonus. Rising Voltage spam is manageable but it's something we must be prepared.​
  • Concerning my favourite drop, I must admit that I really enjoy Cramorant and Ferroseed.​
 
Last edited:
I've been hyping for the adiction of Magmar to PU. While it has to compete with Heatmor and Raboot as a offensive fire-type, it mixes the former's power with the latter's speed, which is amazing imo.

Magmar (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Vital Spirit / Flame Body
EVs: 200 HP / 32 Def / 156 SpA / 120 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower
- Scorching Sands / Focus Blast
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic
- Taunt

I always say I like gimmicks, and this is one of them lol. As I mentioned before, I'm really excited for the addition of Magmar to the tier, and while it's main advantage over Heatmor is speed, its bulk when augmented by Eviolite it's useful for letting switch-in more easily and be able to actually check some threats.
200 HP EVs and 32 Def EVs let's you avoid the 2HKO
Rime's Psychic, Heatmor's Scorching Sands, Raboot's Sucker Punch, Roselia's Sludge Bomb, Klinkang's unboosted Wild Charge, Alcremie's Life Orb Psyshock, and the OHKO from Pawniard's +2 Sucker Punch and Mawile's Play Rough into Sucker Punch.

All after Stealth Rocks
120 Spe EVs are used to outspeed positive-natured base 65s like Heatmor and Roselia, as well as Alcremie, Adamant Hitmonchan and Drednaw (ut speed is fairly customizable, but I recomend to use at least 72 EVs to outspeed Modest Rime). The rest goes into special attack alongside a Modest nature for extra power, while guaranteeing the OHKO on Offensive Rime and Roselia.

For the moveset, Fire Blast is chosen as the main STAB, increasing the OHKO chance on mons like Rime and Eviolite Roselia without max investment, but Flamethrower can be use for better acc and more PP. Next is Scorching Sands assuming it gets it, which provides useful coverage against opposing Fire-types (like Heatmor and Raboot), Rock-types and on Qwilfish and Mareanie. Focus Blast is an alternative that still nails the Rock-types, hits the Fires hard and also gives Magmar a way to deal with other water (Specially Lapras and Drednaw) and Appletun. Will-O-Wisp is useful of spreading status while (sorf of) fixing Magmar low physical bulk, but Toxic is also useful, since Magmar can threaten Steels and Poison with it's coverage. Finally, Taunt helps Magmar beat bulkier walls like Type:Null and either of the aforementioned Waters.

For the ability I prefer Vital Spirit in order to absorb sleep from Grasses like Lilligant and Roselia, but Flame Body can be used to punish physical attackers and U-turn users.

Now, for a more likely standard set
:Magmar:
Magmar (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Focus Blast
- Scorching Sands / Psychic
- Taunt / Psychic

The move choices are the same as the bulky set, but adding Psychic to directly deal with Qwilfish and Mareanie.

For the items choice:
  • Heavy-Duty Boosts: Self-explanatory, by preventing Magmar from taking hazard damage (specially from Stealth Rocks) and be able to switch moves
  • Choice Specs: amplifies Magmar's already solid firepower, allowing to net 2HKOs on bulkier pokemon
  • Choice Scarf: let's it act like a solid revenge killer thanks to It's great speed for the tier
That's all I have to say for this mon, may edit this comment or make a new one for the other NFEs/Eventual new drops.
 
For now I'll post about NFEs (aside from Magmar above) that we're getting that could have some use in the current meta at least:

Electabuzz @ Eviolite
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Toxic
- Focus Blast / Protect
- Volt Switch / Protect

For now, Electabuzz functions as a bulkier alternative to other specially offensive Electrics. Has the same speed tier as Manectric while of course being much bulkier and having utility in Vital Spirit. Unfortunately it hates Hidden Power's removal like most other Electrics, and is hard walled by Runerigus but I still feel for a little while it could have a niche here. But it'd be more interesting to see how it fares in ZU. Of course when (or if) we get Electivire this thing will fade into obscurity really fast, but still.

Metang @ Eviolite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Atk / 80 Def
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Toxic

Facing competition with Mawile and Ferroseed of course, but the past has shown all three can coexist together and be viable together. And its no different here. Unfortunately being neutral to Bug ain't the best. Metang does what it did in the last few gens of PU. Not much more to say.

Combusken @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Fire Blast
- Focus Blast
- Substitute / Toxic

We all know what this does by now. Thankfully it doesn't have any ghost jellyfish to worry about anymore. (Though it also doesn't like Hidden Power's removal, let alone the removal of Sky Uppercut on the physical set) I'm a bit shaky on if this will stay here or not. We'll just wait and see.

Gabite @ Eviolite
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 248 HP / 180 Def / 80 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Roar
- Toxic

Gabite is a fringe Rocker but could have a niche. I don't know yet though. Can phaze at least for all that's worth.

Yes I know we're also getting Golbat, but no way in hell we keep that lmao.
 
Last edited:

MZ

And now for something completely different
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
https://pastebin.com/raw/5pWTeMkw
This comes from Kaphotics datamining Crown Tundra. As far as I can tell all the middle evos we thought could be good are there without anything new.
Electabuzz, Magmar, Gabite, Metang, and Golbat should all be getting added to the meta pretty soon, as well as other less relevant things.
e: Calyrex has 100 HP, 80 in the rest of its stats, awful grass/psychic typing, no nasty plot just CM and agility, nothing else exceptional in the movepool. I really think it's coming to PU.
 
Last edited:
Well, here it is... the CT mess. Here are my thoughts on some notable mons!

:Magmar: - This seems fine, although it might have a niche as a Lilligant check due to Vital Spirit.

:Electabuzz: - Buzz isn't impactful very much, especially when other electrics exist. The removal of HP cripples it too much.

:Golbat: We're not keeping this, but for the time being, more hazard removal helps. Especially with KangaSpikes being dominant here.

:Combusken: - More Speed Boost sweepy time. It might be a little less viable due to no HP and a lack of a good fighting attack, but it can still poke holes in teams well.

:Marshtomp: - This mon is putrid. With all the grass types running around, this will go nowhere. Maybe ZU will have more in store for it.

:Grovyle: - Grovyle is no better than the dozens of other grasses in PU, which all have better offenses,defenses, and overall viability then Grov. Maybe grassy terrain seed could be a gimmick.

:Gabite: Although this could be nice with SR, Runerigus's better typing and defenses outpace the shark. Rough SKin is nice for punishing rapid spin though.

:Metang: Even more SR, Metang might fit in the tier well. Being weak to Polter, ko, and eq doesn't help in the slightest, but its offenses aren't bad, and it can't have its attack lowered, so Qwilfish and Mawile can't stop it.
 
Gabite is way better than your all making out, because it hard stops a lot of the tiers Electric types, whilst Runerigus struggles with their coverage moves after some chip. It can also 2HKO Ferroseed with Fire blast with no investment and a negative nature.
 

Leni

formerly tlenit
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past SCL Champion
RUPL Champion
Council Minutes
Meta Discussion:
  • DLC2 was released meaning new NFE's are here: :combusken:, :metang:, :gabite:, :grovyle:, :marshtomp:, :golbat:, :magmar: and :electabuzz: are available in PU for now. From aforementioned mons the only one most likely getting enough usage in higher tiers will be Golbat. Although council believes it will make its return later back to PU.
  • Instead of going too deeply in meta discussion about up and running one, I'd like to know your opinion on new NFE's. Especially on :combusken:, :golbat: and :gabite:. Combusken has been (brrrr this ladder hero) in SM ladder very common with toxic spike support and in latest PUPL saw more usage with this specific playstyle, does this trend continue? Golbat never found it's way to PU thanks to NU taking really good care of it. Now boots being a thing, what do you think will be it's most viable set and why? Gabite has been definitely a mon that most people in discord mentioned to be great rocker with it's given speed. Do we still believe so, or are speedtiers gone way up and makes Gabite worse than it was planned to be?
VR and Other Votes:
  • 1603794769398.png
Forum Happenings:
That's about it pretty much for this week. Big tier shift coming and things most likely goes upside down, so get ready!

Other than that, stay safe and healthy, peace!
 
I've been running a defensive Gabite with max HP and Def EQ/SR/Toxic /Fire blast or Stone Edge since the DLC dropped and its really good.

Checks all the special Electrics nicely, but both Luxray and Boltund can pack Play Rough which can (but doesn't always 2HKO).

Packs a suprising punch and hits a decent speed tier without investment, I could probably be more clever with the EVs.

I've been meaning to try a Swords Dance/ Scale Shot set.
 

Deleted User 350996

Banned deucer.
:combusken: I think it's a good addition since we lack Fire types. Last gen I used LO + Fire Blast/Focus Blast/HP Rock but the big issue was that you rely on not missing because the chicken's bulk is awful without evio. This gen I want to use Endure + Reversal with either Weakness Policy or Liechi Berry, that looks gimmick but that can be really threatening. Somebody mentioned Sub/Protect/Toxic on PU chat some days ago but I haven't tried that yet.

:golbat: I rather not using it since it's likely leaving next week. Anyway my opinion on Golbat is that it's a solid defogger with an extraordinary movepool: U-Turn, Taunt, Super Fang, Toxic, Brave Bird, Dual Wingbeat, Haze, Whirlwind, Tailwind...see how many options you have. I'd tend to use Eviolite because you need that extra bulk but Boots looks fine too.

:gabite: It has always been one of my favourite rocker for some reasons: it has a natural good speed tier, nice typing while having offensive presence. I've tried Scorching Sand over EQ (so you can take advantage of low Mawile's Sdef for example) but it's kind of weak and makes you passive (base 50 SpA is poor). Naturally you can still use Roar if you want to kick out setters and substitutes.

:metang: it's a fine mon thanks to its useful resistances but I think we definitely have better options such as Ferro' so I see Metang dropping to ZU to make a nice core with Wigglytuff & co.

:grovyle: Honestly I don't really see any reason to use Grovyle over the other Grass types we have. Interesting movepool but it's frail and has mediocre offensive stats.

:marshtomp: Imo Palpitoad is better so I don't see it getting usage here. Enjoy ZU bro.

:magmar: Either Evio or Boots sets look fine. It lost HP Ice/Grass but gained Scorching Sand and even Teleport. It's going to be useful, checking Lilligant (thanks to Vital Spirit) or Alcremie (it learns Clear Smog to cancel any set-up), and I can even see some defensive sets with Seismic Toss/Wisp or Toxic.

:electabuzz: I guess it's a bulkier version of Manectric; you trade Flamethrower for Focus Blast/Psychic which is maybe ok. It also gained Teleport - I don't know if it's worth to lose Volt Switch - and Rising Voltage. Losing HP Ice/Grass is a problem for him. Honestly I don't really see a reason to use it over Raichu/Jolteon/Manectric but let's see what it can do.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top