Announcement np: SM OU Suspect Process, Round 6 - A Thousand Miles [Zygarde is now Banned]

[Egor]

In my opinion, the reason of Zygarde's brokenness is the combination of its versatility, bulk, typing, and TArrows. The keyword is combination. For example, Protean Greninja is versatile as fuck, but it isn't broken. The metagame has many bulky mons with great defensive typings like Ferrothorn and Tyranitar; they aren't broken. TArrows is just a very spammable move, much like any other move without immunities like Ice Beam. But if we combine all these things in one mon, we'll get Zygarde. Tremendous versatility allows to possibly bypass its would-be checks. Bulk and typing give very much opportunities to setup DD or Coil. It's also backed up by TArrows. One of anti-ban arguments is "Zygarde is matchup-dependent". No. Matchup is definitely a very important thing, but Zygarde usually puts work in almost any matchup, especially if it runs Glare or Toxic. Another anti-ban argument was " Zygarde doesn't sweep every game". It shouldn't really. While yeah, sets like ZGround, Double Dance, and WP should sweep, please don't forget that there're also at least seven sets exist, and sweeping isn't their main aim. Instead, these sets usually will try to wallbreak, annoy foes with status, or pivot on attacks. These sets also can sweep if needed. Which any other mon has such versatility? And about teambuilding. Zygarde does actually restrict the teambuilding. You have to keep in mind this mon when building, and, for example, even if you put something like Tangrowth in the team, you won't be completely safe vs Zygarde, because Toxic variants exist. Or if you put, say, Curse M-Scizor, Glare Zygarde can hax it. It's very difficult to prepare for all Zygarde sets, and usually there's a Zygarde set that'll beat your team. I consider these teambuilding restrictions unhealthy.

All in all, I think Zygarde is broken in OU meta because of reasons above, and if I'll get the reqs, I'll vote BAN.

P. S. sorry for my bad english :/

 

[I like pink mons]

I would like to point out a question:
If Zygarde gets banned, will it make the OU metagame any better ?

Answering that question is what truly matters in my opinion. Zygarde being broken or not is merely subjective and is a much harder problem to answer because obviously, Zygarde is on the verge.

And honestly, I don’t think banning Zygarde will balance the metagame at all.
There’s much more than Zygarde that is unhealthy and restricts teambuilding in this tier (Greninja, Heatran to name a few).

This makes me wonder about the objectives behind this suspect: what’s coming next ?
Is Zygarde’s suspect a lonely case or other suspects are planned ?

If that is a lonely case, then I don’t see the point of banning it.
If more suspects are coming, then it makes perfect sense to me.

Basically this suspect is about deciding between:
1) To keep the metagame the way it is
2) To begin a ban scourge trying to balance it

Banning only Zygarde won’t change much.

 

[Dreadfury]

Local Zygarde overrater here to tell the pro-ban crowd that they're overrating the shit outta the snake. I ended up getting extremely frustrated with the pro-ban crowd in the Discord and kinda let that frustration cloud my judgment and ability to make a cohesive and convincing argument but hopefully this more constructive post here adds something to the discussion:

I genuinely don't really get what the point of this suspect test is. Do you people think Zygarde is broken, or do you think it's just really annoying? Because I'll give you annoying: this thing has a lot of sets to prepare for and Glare gives me a fucking headache every time I see it. But just because something can opt to run sets that beat its checks and counters doesn't inherently make it broken, even if it gets status on top of that. Most of this tier's most powerful threats, including the one that singlehandedly holds this tier together in Landorus-T, can run several different sets viably and the best set is never set-in-stone. But broken? Definitely not.

Moreover, does the meta really need to suspect something this badly? Because Zygarde isn't even one of the most oppressive presences in the tier unless it's under screens (which is admittedly a terrifying set but tbf anything with a good setup move under screens will mix your shit). Magearna, Heatran, Lele, Koko, Bulu, Tornadus-T, Protean Greninja, Landorus-T, and Mega Mawile are also surprisingly versatile and no team can account for each and every one of the viable sets that most of these can run, and some among these are infinitely more oppressive threats:

Stall can handle AV or Shift Gear Magearna decently well but CM+Pain Split Magearna can obliterate almost any competent Stall team, while teams that can handle CM+Split Gear may not appreciate CM+Shift Gear or AV or Fairium or OTR or any of the trillions of sets this fucking thing can run.

CM+Z-Move Lele can wreck anything that expects to come in on a Scarf or Specs set.

Tornadus-T has recently started running Fightinium Z specifically to handle many of its best Hurricane switchins and it still manages to be a nuisance for any team to deal with, whether it be offensive or defensive.

Mega Mawile is such a huge threat to Stall that it's starting to run Mega Aggron to even hope to switch into something not named Focus Punch.

Protean Greninja is in and of itself one of the tier's most versatile threats and it has the added benefit of bluffing an Ash-Greninja on team preview, and Ash-Greninja is easily one of the most overcentralizing forces in the OU tier at the moment and several of Zygarde's best answers are some of Ash-Greninja's best answers.

Heatran runs Steelium to lure in faster switchins to its other sets, including Zygarde itself, and Firium continues to be a massive threat regardless of the archetype Heatran is up against. Fatter Heatran sets are still as phenomenal as ever because the thing provides as assload of defensive utility by virtue of its godlike typing alone.

Bulu's best set is a SpDef Swords Dance set but it lacks the immediate power that people keep on forgetting Choice Band, which 2HKOs anything that doesn't 4x resist it, boasts. Bulu is decidedly limited in a sense but you can barely even scout for the thing without risking getting something OHKOed by a +1 Grassy Terrain boosted STAB Wood Hammer coming off of a base 130 Attack stat.

Landorus-T can act as speed control and a revenge killer, a wallbreaker with an impeccable matchup against Stall with two amazing potential Z-move sets, a potent suicide lead, a pivot, a rocker, and a setup sweeper depending on what set it opts to run and its movepool lets it account for anything that may want to deal with whichever set happens to be flavor of the month at any given time. Yet this thing is not only not inherently broken no matter how close to a dozen viable sets it can run but is arguably the one thing keeping this tier together.

...yet even with so many top-tier threats to prepare for that you literally cannot prepare for them all, the tier has been extremely stable. The tier has been extremely stable even with Zygarde's presence in the tier since its very beginnings. Moreover, the meta has been stable and all archetypes are viable to some extent. You have your Stall, your semi-Stall, your Balance, your Hyper Offense, your Bulky Offense, and you can still construct several viable teams that don't necessarily fall under a single one of these archetypes. Some are more consistent than others - Balance and Stall are going to be infinitely more consistent and therefore infinitely more tournament-viable than Hyper Offense, which is more prominent on the ladder - but they're all viable. In fact, Zygarde isn't even that polarizing in tournaments; it sees a decent amount of usage, but apart from a select few games where the thing either ran someone through or Glared everything and the winner got lucky the thing's sheer power and dominance is honestly being massively overrated.

So I've talked a lot about the tier as a whole. But what about Zygarde? Isn't that what the suspect is about? Well, I'm going to break this thing down for you all, set by set by set.

SubCoil+Glare: Incredible set. I'm not going to deny this. Glare is a ridiculously irritating move and it's part of why Serperior is even viable in this tier, and Zygarde is an even better user and abuser of this move. But you're massively overrating the chance of a full paralysis: you're running Stone Edge, Magma Storm, and/or Focus Blast on at least one team member at any given time but I definitely don't hear you calling Heatran bad when that crucial Magma Storm you were gonna use to trap something missed and you lost your Heatran and potentially the entire game because of it. Mob Barley put it pretty well: there is no fucking way this thing is realistically gonna hax past your Avalugg, Bulu, Tangrowth, Mega Scizor, or Clefable as often as you think it will. But I feel like y'all have more issues with Glare than you do with the Zygarde set tbh. I respect that, but this set, despite being one of the most consistent sets, still isn't going to be haxing past literally everything every game like every other post claims it will. The speed control aspect of this set is very nice, but Paralysis is inconsistent, as is the entire game we're playing. Crits exist. Misses exist. Stuff that eats a stat drop from Shadow Ball or Psychic or something that suffers a Scald burn can be irreparably damaged for the entirety of a game. But this game will never be consistent. Glare as a status move is consistent, but the status it inflicts upon its intended targets is anything but. And if this is the set that ends up ultimately getting it banned I'll be incredibly disappointed.

Choice Band: A simple set but nevertheless a solid one. Thousand Arrows is insanely good and CB Zygarde can spam it on the majority of the tier and nail the others with coverage options or its amazing priority. But I nevertheless feel like this set depends on Thousand Arrows too much, if that makes any sense: Outrage is a horrible move to be locked into, Superpower is exploitable, ESpeed isn't as good in the early game, and Iron Tail has as high a chance of not working as Full Paralysis does of working. You most certainly could nail Bulu or Clefable with Iron Tail but that chance to miss is actually very high in the grand scheme of things, and that's why Earthquake is even considered a viable option in that slot; to potentially 2HKO Clefable without relying on Iron Fail. Thousand Arrows is good but Zygarde's immediate power still leaves quite a bit to be desired; even just a +1 Zygarde still feels like it's not doing that much damage. The real thing going for these sets is that they can still give up coverage to just status something, but I don't think status is that insane even if it can be very polarizing at times.

DD+Z-Move: Don't use Dragonium. Seriously. Don't fucking use Dragonium. That set is actual fucking garbage and shouldn't have gotten even the slightest mention in the OP. The shit needs to be +2 to comfortably break past Tangrowth anyway since it eats +1 and Regens it off and then you're forcing yourself to be locked into Outrage every time that fucking thing comes in and Outrage is a bad move in this tier. Groundium, on the other hand, is a very solid set and I have no issues with it, though it again gets walled by Tangrowth, Bulu and Clefable without Iron Tail, or any Unaware wall. Steelium isn't great IMO but it still hits some very crucial targets that people tend to fall back on to check most Zygarde sets like Clefable (it's not a very good check honestly) and Bulu without having to rely on Iron Fail. But yeah, don't use Dragonium. It's not a set.

Double Dance (Coil+DD): This is the healthiest Zygarde set even though this is probably the one people legitimately get destroyed by the hardest besides a very lucky Glare set, and that's because this is the Zygarde set you will see 90% of the time on any HO team (WP also works and that's probably the other 10%). It is easily the most telegraphed Zygarde set out there and you will likely know from team preview that this is going to be the Zygarde set you're up against. It's insanely bulky with the support of dual-screens or Aurora Veil and can therefore pick up tons of boosts pretty easily, but it also requires a great deal of support to function since it is so frequently constrained to these HO teams. Banning Zygarde would have very little impact on the tier since its best counterplay (besides maybe Avalugg) will still be used very frequently since they're good beyond checking Zygarde but Hyper Offense would absolutely suffer if Zygarde was banned because this set is so fantastic on those teams. I know this argument was once used in support of Arena Trap Dugtrio on Stall teams, but there were so many holes in that famous argument that it's honestly quite sad people were so heavily in defense of it and it still proved problematic once bigger threats were dealt with. No ban should make an entire archetype borderline-useless when it's already inconsistent as is, especially when the tier isn't exactly very unbalanced or unstable as is.

SubDD+Protect: This set is honestly a lot worse than SubCoil+Glare. It's most frequently paired with Toxic Spikes support so it can muscle past the fat grasses. I can see why this set is an issue, though, since you could just as easily bluff Protean Greninja with Ash-Gren and run Toxic instead and then you've got yourself a behemoth of a core with near-perfect synergy, but I still don't find this inherently broken (and honestly, if anything between these two is broken it's probably Ash-Gren itself).

RestTalk (all versions): These are honestly honestly some very cool sets. You probably wouldn't catch most players dead using this but it's a genuinely creative set that allows it to deal with virtually all Heatran sets very effectively. Honestly, the fact that it's a viable set in general is more a testament to the fact that players managed to get very creative with Zygarde's decidedly limited movepool. That should not be a blow against Zygarde's brokenness or lack thereof; creativity should always be welcome in a tier such as this.

Other Shit: Specs is heat if you pick up that Sludge Wave on Bulu, bop a Lando-T with HP Ice, or nail a Gliscor or Tangrowth with Core Enforcer on the switch but don't use this garbage. Don't use Camouflage for STAB E-Speed unless you want to get really creative with a really shitty set; I tried this shit and it's really not a good set whatsoever. Thousand Waves variants are really cool on paper but its other options are usually straight-up better. During OLT an interesting Soft Sand+DTail DD set came up every now and then to deal with Acid Armor Reuniclus and Curse Mega Scizor but it's not as good nowadays since Glare is just super good in general. These are definitely creative but RestTalk is a better example of a more creative set.

I always used to nominate Zygarde to S on the VR every time a new slate was presented, and it was turned down every time without fail. It was even blacklisted for a time in-part because of how frequently that discussion would come up. Though that seems unrelated, one of the arguments against Zygarde going to S was that the whole "it has a lot of viable sets" argument was invalid because many of Zygarde's sets would ultimately be dead weight against many teams while SubCoil+Glare and Choice Band were the only ones that always posed a threat to almost every team. What the fuck changed to make this a valid argument again? And why the fuck is Dragonium suddenly getting a mention like every single person in here hasn't called it an unset for well over a year now?

I'm gonna ask this question again: does this meta really need to ban something that badly? While I'm of the mindset that there are some things that should be looked at, such as Magearna, Ash-Greninja, and Mega Mawile, that are easily more threatening in my eyes than Zygarde due to their versatility or sheer consistency against a specific playstyle, even those don't really deserve a ban. I really don't like this meta, but thinking about it long and hard I really don't think it's an unbalanced meta either. You pride yourselves on making a stable meta, even if said meta is incredibly stagnant. Some even argue that Gen 2 OU is one of the most stable metagames ever even if it's probably one of the least-enjoyable stallfests out there and even though Snorlax is on virtually every team. Moreover, is banning Zygarde even going to do anything? Hyper Offense is gonna be extremely lackluster without its star player, but all those teams using Tangrowth are probably still gonna be using Tangrowth because it's such a good Ash-Gren check and it's just so consistent and so bulky. You're gonna be seeing even more Bulu because Iron Tail Zygarde isn't gonna exist anymore and Bulu checks Ash-Gren pretty nicely too. And you'll probably see Ferrothorn a decent amount more. But these fat grasses are still gonna do the same stuff they've always done. You're not gonna see any less of them. Moreover, Serperior is still a damn good Glare user and you're probably going to want to tear your hair out when that thing literally clicks Glare, haxes your Heatran once, and suddenly beats a would-be hard-counter like it was nothing. You're gonna see a whole lot less of a playstyle that's already very hit-or-miss but the teams that are already good are going to see virtually no changes whatsoever because they aren't explicitly going out of their way to check Zygarde.

And once again, the things that check Zygarde aren't exactly unviable either. Avalugg is probably the most niche Zygarde check ever but stuff like Tangrowth, Bulu, Lando-T, Clefable, AA Reuniclus, Mega Scizor, and whatnot are still going to be good in a metagame where there is no Zygarde to check. Are you trying to shake the metagame up? Because banning something that is usually being covered by the teambuilding crossfire of "there's a lot of shit I need to check and these things check that shit well" isn't really going to shake the metagame up. And if you're trying to remove broken elements from a pretty balanced metagame, you may want to reevaluate your personal definition of "broken." Because as it stands this suspect seems to be aiming to ban something not because it's actually broken or massively overcentralizing but because people are getting annoyed by it.

If I get the reqs for this suspect, I am 100% going to vote to keep Zygarde in OU. My mind was made up the instant this suspect was announced and I'm admittedly super biased in favor of Zygarde (and I have no shame in admitting any of that, either), but that doesn't make many of my arguments in favor of keeping Zygarde - or my harsh criticisms of such a controversial suspect test - any less valid. Zygarde didn't become some overwhelming, overbearing presence overnight. Please stop acting like it did.

 

[ABR]

I wrote the initial post as well as this follow up post in a more neutral fashion, steering argumentation in the right direction without picking a certain side. After some further consideration, however, I decided I will be voting ban.

I don't intend to run down the list of potential checks/counters and explain how Zygarde gets around them with a myriad of different sets to choose from. Many people have done this already and the OP even provides an overview of this. It all boils down to subjectivity and perspective of how efficiently Zygarde truly does this but in my view it does so frequently. Something else to consider is that common game states can contribute to Zygarde being overbearing even if you have a "counter" to it. For example, the presence of Toxic Spikes can ease Zygarde's ability to break through common checks without dedicating a turn / move slot. There's also the possibility of a Zygarde check being needed for other pokemon, even if they aren't fully killed the necessary damage can already be done.

Now, on the surface, mon 1 wearing down a check for mon 2 is fairly normal stuff but Zygarde does this differently in a few ways. First and foremost, the very nature of Thousand Arrows means you can't fluidly / softly deal with it because it is ridiculously spammable. When you are so rigidly locked into using dedicated resists / walls for a certain move, the game has a tendency to fall apart in a really delicate manner. This isn't like Lele where you can at least have the option to pivot into Greninja to dissuade the spamming of Psychic type moves. If your main Thousand Arrows switch in is gone then Zygarde's going to do major damage every time it's in and that can be quite a few times given its natural bulk. Elaborating on that point, Zygarde's superb bulk means soft checking it is much easier said than done. This isn't like Greninja or Lele where any faster pokemon can knock them out after a sack. If you can't immediately KO Zygarde and it has the potential to set up / attack status / you, maybe even behind a sub, then it's not hard to see why games can deteriorate so quickly with its presence.

Continuing this point, it is important to note how Zygarde creates an unhealthy teambuilding burden / metagame restriction in SM OU. As described above, the spammability of Thousand Arrows coupled with Zygarde's impressive bulk creates a situation where you pretty much need to have dedicated answers to avoid an instantly losing situation. If you can't use soft answers as much and need dedicated ones then this obviously causes a tight restrain on building. I know personally that one of my initial thoughts when building is "so what Zygarde answer(s) can I fit here?" yet even with such attention it is still often not enough. While this is anecdotal I do believe it is a near universal experience for OU players. Look, I'm aware that prevalent threats being at the forefront of a builder's mind is not unique to Zygarde. What is unique to Zygarde, though, is a powerful blend containing the most spammable of STABs, raw bulk, as well as setup and status options.

I am all for embracing what generation 7 has brought us and the power level increase associated with that. As with everything, however, there are boundaries for when this goes too far. It has taken me a while to personally recognize but I am fully ready to accept that the line of health and balance has been crossed by Zygarde.

 

[JTD783]

Hey guys,

I just got reqs (first time ever) so I'll share my thoughts.

• Is Zygarde overpowered? I don't believe it is. It isn't obscenely powerful and despite being able to beat some of its counters it still needs a lot of support before it cleans up games in the case of DD or Coil sets. Access to Thousand Arrows, along with DD, Coil, and its great bulk is what pushes it near the edge, but I don't think it's quite over the edge of OP.
• Is Zygarde overcentralizing? Sort of. For various reasons, Zygarde included, fat grasses are all over the place, Lando has very high usage as usual, and teams have to adapt to the fact that the definition of a Ground immunity has changed. It's certainly a big concern for teambuilding. Zygarde's dominance has given rise to Curse Scizor, Acid Armor Reuniclus, and increasing usage of Buzzwole and Avalugg on stall builds. All of these can be defeated with certain niche sets however.
• Is Zygarde unhealthy? Debatable. It definitely drives meta trends and makes things less stagnant since new sets and old builds continue to become prominent. This also spawns the cycle of: Zygarde set is really good -> meta finds a way to check it -> new Zygarde set or old build sees usage -> Zygarde is really good again ad infinitum. I don't know about Zygarde as a whole but I think everyone agrees that TA and Glare are bullshit moves; fortunately their distribution is very limited.
• Do pros outweigh cons? For me, the answer is yes. It can be annoying at times but I don't find it too hard to deal with, whether I'm in high 1800s ladder or I tilt to 1500 like a pleb. It's very fun to use and I use it often, but I don't feel as though I'm losing out if I choose not to use it on a team. This was a hallmark of past bans, where a teambuilder would ask themself "why the hell should I not slap this on the team"; there's definitely an opportunity cost to use snake and even more so depending on the set. In almost every situation where I face it I can win the matchup by using Scizor, Clef, Tang, and scarf Greninja.

Keep in mind this is anecdotal experience based on the ladder, not tournaments, so take it with a grain of salt. I'm still on the fence but leaning No Ban.

 

[Ewin]

So I’ve been reading some of the more recent don’t ban arguments and just wanted to debunk some of them,

If Zygarde gets banned it won’t affect the meta that much/get better:

A Pokémon is not tested/banned because it should change the meta, it is tested/banned if it is either “broke” or unhealthy to the meta overall.If we wanted to make the meta better/change it we could just test heatran or lando.

If Zygarde a A+ tier mon is getting tested shouldn’t the other S tier mons get tested too:

None of the S tier mons can reliably make new sets to counter their checks.Point and case Ash-greninja, while being a top threat it has reliable answers (bulu,tang,pex,ferro,fini), while on the other hand Zygarde doesn’t have a reliable check.
Now you may say that Zygarde can only run one set at a time which is true but do you have the answer to that one set you are facing at the very moment.Unlike some S tier mons Zygarde can always do smth every single game (status spam with glare/toxic,spam tarrow,revenge kill with espeed,etc).

None of Zygardes sets are really “broke”

Well this is true but a mon doesn’t need just one very good set to be “broke”.In Zygardes case it has multiple good sets which makes prepping for it very difficult.

Other mons deserve to be tested more

While I’m not disagreeing the question at hand is should we ban this mon, not oh other mons deserve testing more insta not ban this is a waste of my time next please.If other mons should be tested more it shouldn’t affect your vote on banning/not banning the current mon at hand.Again with the point that not a single one my Zygardes sets are broke but all of its sets are very good n that differentiates itself from smth like Ash Gren which has one superb set.

it doesn’t restrict team building

Ok this isn’t true at all.If u have ever tried making a team n not said oh I don’t need a mon for Zygarde that team is most likely trash.Even if u slap a tang on every team you build n say oh I’m fine Zygarde can still cripple tang with toxic/glare (can cause some unwanted full paras).Which again comes to how versatile Zygarde is, it beats pretty much every single one of it’s checks.

 

[craing ;_;]

I normally don't ever post on these forums anymore but since this is the first change in policy for ou in a very, very long time i felt it was very much needed to have some discourse on the matter. As for the logistics regarding this suspect test, I feel best to address the metagame as a whole before we delve any further into the actual matter. First of all, many players I know as well as myself have felt that ou has become increasingly stagnant, in the sense that the tier itself isn't really progressing any further than it can and is stuck in some sort of limbo. That being said, that isn't to say that the tier itself is limiting in terms of what is deemed viable or unviable. You can use any mon, set, or core to lasting effect as long as it is sufficiently supported, while being able to cover common metagame threats to a reasonable degree. This does however exasperate a very important issue that has become increasingly prevalent over the course of generations, team matchup. Being only limited to 6 slots whose set viability is dependent on the mon itself, your tools are limited in tackling the entire metagame as a whole, especially considering the wide variety that it inheritly possesses. As it is right now, we have reached a tipping point; where the tier itself has seemingly balanced out, but is left unfiltered by the many nuances that make it appear to be suspect and cause for concern.

There are a couple of standout mons that personally annoy me when building/playing such as medicham, mawile, and magearna, but tackling zygarde is a start. It may seem underpowered in comparison (while even sporting much more checks and counters), however its versatility in moveset, obscene bulk, and splashability on teams allow it to overcome many of its obstacles while offering a lot of utility. Despite having a lot of things going for it, in practice it may more often than not fall flat because it can only use one set compared to the myriad it can threaten with. It's moreso the fact that its sheer presence in the tier forces players to account for the very many it can sport. In fact, offensive sr z rock/dragon garchomp has risen in usage because it consolidates a lot of what zygarde can offer to a team, but through a much more broad sense. Zygarde on the other hand is able to apply much more pressure just by being zygarde. It's toolkit is too comprehensive for anyone team to cover for every set it possesses, which is something that not a lot of suspect worthy mons can say for themselves.

Another lens with which to look at this is what makes zygarde itself so amazing in the first place, thousand arrows. With this move, it singlehandedly allows it to bypass prediction(flying/levitate mons get hit), potential checks and counters, as well as 4mss. Now that isn't to say it would be unviable without the move. It would probably function like a bootleg garchomp that had more bulk and different set up moves, but also annoying status moves to boot. If put in that context, it would be a marginally worse garchomp, but as you can probably understand is what gives zygarde that inherit edge over it. Though I understand the need to suspect the mon itself over the move(for zydog in lower tiers), I thought it would be interesting to address this dichotomy.

For those who don't believe this mon to be broken or overpowered in the traditional sense, they are not incorrect to come to such a conclusion. However as far as tiering policy on smogon goes, its not always clear-cut as seeing things in black and white, or in this case broken or not broken. It is moreso the lasting effects the suspect itself has on the metagame as a whole, as we want to not be as limited or constrained when moving forward with the tier(a good example of this happening in the past is with the sableye suspect in oras). That being said, getting rid of zygarde would free a lot of options for the tier itself. Some things off the top of my head are ice coverage not being mandatory on certain mons, bulky grass types not being needed on 9/10 teams, or more generally speaking teams not being spread to thin trying to cover as much zygarde set permuations as possible. Hell, probably zydog will see the light of day as a result of this but I digress. Hopefully this post wasn't too long and boring to you but tldr banning zygarde is a very much welcome change in progressing towards a much more fun and desirable metagame.

 

[MikeDawg]

A Pokémon is not tested/banned because it should change the meta, it is tested/banned if it is either “broke” or unhealthy to the meta overall.

(typing from my phone, so please excuse any typos)

Even disregarding the argument that brokenness is inherently tied to (negative) meta influence, "unhealthy" is entirely synonymous with having a negative impact on the meta. We aren't dealing with inherently uncompetitive traits like trapping and RNG. It follows, then, that banning Zygarde on the basis of "unhealthiness" is an explicit attempt to change the state of the tier--nothing more. The (wholly correct) comment above mine is a great illustration of that fact.

There are countless quality posts across the forum detailing why Zygarde isn't particularly overpowered, so there's no point in reiterating. In accordance with those, I think there are a solid handful of mons that are more unnerving to see on the opposing team from a purely offensive standpoint.

The most compelling ban arguments, imo, are the ones complaining about Zygarde's impact on teambuilding and (to a lesser extent) in-game decision making. In other words, the arguments claiming that a Zygarde ban will help mitigate the tier's stagnation.

There have been fine pro-ban arguments from both angles. I personally don't think Zygarde is particularly overbearing, nor do I think banning it would have an exclusively positive impact on meta development & teambuilding (balance still needs bulky grass mons; we lose a flexible answer to already-dominant threats like Heatran, Toxapex, and Magearna; etc.). On both of those grounds, I would tentatively vote No Ban, or to at least Abstain.

 

[BlueLobster]

As someone who uses zyg extremely regularly, it is far from broken. People act like it has about 10 good sets when actually only 3/4 are actually good and the rest are very unreliable/stopped being relevant 6 months ago. I might just go insane if I see camouflage/wp sets mentioned again, they are not relevant to the suspect as they haven't been seriously used in months, and even drag/steel zs that everyone seems to be so worried about have been no where to be seen. Theres basically 3 sets: Band, sub glare and double dance, with the odd variation like DD on sub glare > coil or something. This is far less flexible than painted in this thread for good reason: These obscure sets have glaring flaws. Dragz/steelz not only use up the z move but also force you to drop your utility moves (glare/sub), which are arguably the best assets of a setup zyg. Sub toxic doesn't have glare to help it V faster threats/para hax through other checks, unless it drops coil which is kinda dumb in general. Weakness policy doesn't have iapapa so can't feasibly run double dance and also can't use a z to break through tang so I completely fail to see it's purpose, it beats lando/clef which is already done by double dance behind screens (aka the main place it's used) but other than that doesn't achieve anything notable. Camouflage is a meme and I've seen it once this whole gen, which says enough. There are situations where someone can use a creative zyg set that happens to beat a team you might say is well prepared, but it is usually not worth straying from minor adaptations of the major sets as the drop in consistency is notable.

A big problem with zygarde isn't actually related to zyg at all, it's that many teams rely on patchwork answers to it that barely check zyg in the first place. Clefable needs very little chip before band 2hkos with tarrows, and that's ignoring band carries iron tail anyway. Lando cannot consistently switch in and, while it's a useful backup check, way too many people claim to not have trouble with zyg cause they have a lando paired with X mediocre check even though lando is likely going to be too chipped to do anything in the end/sometimes doesn't even have hp ice and people still call it a zyg check when it blatantly isn't. Bulu loses to coil sets without specific EVs and dies to band iron tail anyway. So you ask, why do people use these? It's not because of zyg, it's because they are good role compression. Bulu is primarily an ash gren check, while lando is the tiers best scarfer and clef is mainly used for rocks + wish. Them checking certain zyg sets is just a bonus, it doesn't mean you are certain to beat any zyg variant chucked at you. There are plenty of better checks such as tang and niche mons like buzzwole and avalugg that are much better equipped to handle zyg, we just use these since they're easier to fit onto teams and patch up the fact we don't actually prepare for zyg that well at all. I see people reference games such as https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-406724 in order to say a niche zyg set can break a well prepared team, but is the team honestly well prepared? On that team, there is an ice beam alomomola as the sole fix a notable zyg weakness, so it's going to have trouble with any form of toxic zyg, and if you see how little beam did to zyg then any form of sub zyg on screens would also be an issue. So while there was zyg counterplay, it wasn't as secure as it's being presented, and had literally nothing for the toxic/rest/dd zyg it faced mostly because it struggles with the very similar sub toxic to begin with, and a more obscure set that functions in a similar manner was brought. Is that an issue with zyg, or is that the case with any mon? I remember running shit like psychium z SD kart to cteam zapdos, mvenu and buzzwole back in the day, is this not just the same thing, except with a little more versitility?

This is a meta that has a very high power threshold, we have shit like ash gren running around with limited defensive counterplay. Zyg for me is just another example of that, that needs to be pressured heavily to prevent it from becoming an issue. We have the means to do that. Once in a while, we might lose to glare hax, or an unexpected zyg set and that's okay, because it's risk management that we handled badly, either because of a teambuilding oversight or a mistake in playing. Just because zyg makes these mistakes more obvious than any other mon in the tier doesn't mean it is "broken" or "uncompetitive", because it has counterplay which is not restrictive as we can patch it up with top meta mons if we don't actually want to prepare for zyg well, and even in the meta we have solid AF checks like tang, as well as stuff like bulu, clef, lando and mew which do the job most of the time despite having some flaws. I feel like a lot of this suspect is using zyg as an outlet for our frustrations of this meta as a whole, which is not a good mindset. This tier is stable and nothing is massively broken, I see no reason to ruin it because glare is annoying or the meta is "stale" and zyg is the easiest thing to attack for that, despite not actually being broken.

#SaveZyg

 

[Mellow]

People act like it has about 10 good sets when actually only 3/4 are actually good and the rest are very unreliable/stopped being relevant 6 months ago. I might just go insane if I see camouflage/wp sets mentioned again, they are not relevant to the suspect as they haven't been seriously used in months, and even drag/steel zs that everyone seems to be so worried about have been no where to be seen. Theres basically 3 sets: Band, sub glare and double dance, with the odd variation like DD on sub glare > coil or something. This is far less flexible than painted in this thread for good reason: These obscure sets have glaring flaws. Dragz/steelz not only use up the z move but also force you to drop your utility moves (glare/sub), which are arguably the best assets of a setup zyg. Sub toxic doesn't have glare to help it V faster threats/para hax through other checks, unless it drops coil which is kinda dumb in general. Weakness policy doesn't have iapapa so can't feasibly run double dance and also can't use a z to break through tang so I completely fail to see it's purpose, it beats lando/clef which is already done by double dance behind screens (aka the main place it's used) but other than that doesn't achieve anything notable. Camouflage is a meme and I've seen it once this whole gen, which says enough. There are situations where someone can use a creative zyg set that happens to beat a team you might say is well prepared, but it is usually not worth straying from minor adaptations of the major sets as the drop in consistency is notable.

Ever thought that maybe you don't think it's broken because you're dismissing like half of the sets it runs? Offensive DD is a perfectly good set that can sweep teams that rely on stuff like Bulu / Clef / Defensive Lando to beat Zygarde. Weakness Policy is the same deal - it not being able to break Tangrowth doesn't make it a bad option since it's not the only Zygarde answer run in the tier. Suggesting that it is just outclassed by Double Dance is pretty ignorant since you can only really run that behind screens, so you can't just throw it on any build. Rest is a great set that means it can stay around the whole game to check shit like Heatran and Blacephalon, can abuse Landos and Clefables if weakened, and can even break through Tang and Bro in the long-term if you're Toxic, which is a pretty good option on it (it's probably better than Sleep Talk tbh). SubToxic beats like every Zygarde answer in the tier bar Clef, Reuni, Gliscor, (can lose if it's coil zyg and non ice fang glisc) and Sciz, so I have no idea why you think it's not a good set. It not having glare does not make it bad since you have Sub to protect you from faster threats while you just Toxic them.
I'm pretty bored of the "camo terrible why peepull keep mention it???" strawman, because they don't. Gurpreet already said, but I'll say it again for clarity - aside from other goons pretending people are mentioning this set, it has been mentioned exactly once, and people have already disagreed with their mentioning of the set.

A big problem with zygarde isn't actually related to zyg at all, it's that many teams rely on patchwork answers to it that barely check zyg in the first place. Clefable needs very little chip before band 2hkos with tarrows, and that's ignoring band carries iron tail anyway. Lando cannot consistently switch in and, while it's a useful backup check, way too many people claim to not have trouble with zyg cause they have a lando paired with X mediocre check even though lando is likely going to be too chipped to do anything in the end/sometimes doesn't even have hp ice and people still call it a zyg check when it blatantly isn't. Bulu loses to coil sets without specific EVs and dies to band iron tail anyway. So you ask, why do people use these? It's not because of zyg, it's because they are good role compression. Bulu is primarily an ash gren check, while lando is the tiers best scarfer and clef is mainly used for rocks + wish. Them checking certain zyg sets is just a bonus

Did it not occur to you once in writing this that maybe, just maybe, that rather than us just being shit builders, that maybe Zygarde is broken because the majority of its common "answers" in the tier lose to at least one of it's prominent sets?
Nobody claims these mons are catch all answers or anything, we just don't really have many other options if we don't wanna just lose to Zyg. While all the mons we currently use to check Zygarde will not immediately become unviable if it leaves, you cannot deny that we won't be as pressured to use Tangrowth or Bulu (that lose to Zygarde a lot of the time anyway) on the majority of teams, and we'll be more free to use Ash-Gren answers that don't check Zygarde well like Tapu Fini, Amoonguss, and even Toxapex to an extent since building won't be as restricting.
Anyway, I'm curious as to what mons you use to beat Zygarde, since apparently we're all incapable of building properly. So, what Zygarde answers do you use?

There are plenty of better checks such as tang and niche mons like buzzwole and avalugg that are much better equipped to handle zyg

oh

On that team, there is an ice beam alomomola as the sole fix a notable zyg weakness, so it's going to have trouble with any form of toxic zyg, and if you see how little beam did to zyg then any form of sub zyg on screens would also be an issue. So while there was zyg counterplay, it wasn't as secure as it's being presented, and had literally nothing for the toxic/rest/dd zyg it faced mostly because it struggles with the very similar sub toxic to begin with, and a more obscure set that functions in a similar manner was brought.

bruh you can't have your cake and eat it too. How are you gonna call SubToxic and Rest bad sets, and then simultaneously say Alomomola is a bad check because it loses to those very same sets????

Just because zyg makes these mistakes more obvious than any other mon in the tier doesn't mean it is "broken" or "uncompetitive", because it has counterplay which is not restrictive as we can patch it up with top meta mons if we don't actually want to prepare for zyg well, and even in the meta we have solid AF checks like tang, as well as stuff like bulu, clef, lando and mew which do the job most of the time despite having some flaws.

This is another huge contradiction. You say bulu, clef, and lando "do the job most of the time" in this paragraph, despite having said in the last paragraph that they "barely check zyg in the first place"???????? which is it???????????

I haven't responded to every point from your post because I'd like to keep my psyche intact considering the arguments are either contradictions, not based on anything (referring to the deflection to ash gren and saying ppl are just voting ban bc they're bored of the meta), or just flat out wrong.

 

[BlueLobster]

Ever thought that maybe you don't think it's broken because you're dismissing like half of the sets it runs? Offensive DD is a perfectly good set that can sweep teams that rely on stuff like Bulu / Clef / Defensive Lando to beat Zygarde. Weakness Policy is the same deal - it not being able to break Tangrowth doesn't make it a bad option since it's not the only Zygarde answer run in the tier. Suggesting that it is just outclassed by Double Dance is pretty ignorant since you can only really run that behind screens, so you can't just throw it on any build. Rest is a great set that means it can stay around the whole game to check shit like Heatran and Blacephalon, can abuse Landos and Clefables if weakened, and can even break through Tang and Bro in the long-term if you're Toxic, which is a pretty good option on it (it's probably better than Sleep Talk tbh). SubToxic beats like every Zygarde answer in the tier bar Clef, Reuni, Gliscor, (can lose if it's coil zyg and non ice fang glisc) and Sciz, so I have no idea why you think it's not a good set. It not having glare does not make it bad since you have Sub to protect you from faster threats while you just Toxic them.
I'm pretty bored of the "camo terrible why peepull keep mention it???" strawman, because they don't. Gurpreet already said, but I'll say it again for clarity - aside from other goons pretending people are mentioning this set, it has been mentioned exactly once, and people have already disagreed with their mentioning of the set.


Did it not occur to you once in writing this that maybe, just maybe, that rather than us just being shit builders, that maybe Zygarde is broken because the majority of its common "answers" in the tier lose to at least one of it's prominent sets?
Nobody claims these mons are catch all answers or anything, we just don't really have many other options if we don't wanna just lose to Zyg. While all the mons we currently use to check Zygarde will not immediately become unviable if it leaves, you cannot deny that we won't be as pressured to use Tangrowth or Bulu (that lose to Zygarde a lot of the time anyway) on the majority of teams, and we'll be more free to use Ash-Gren answers that don't check Zygarde well like Tapu Fini, Amoonguss, and even Toxapex to an extent since building won't be as restricting.
Anyway, I'm curious as to what mons you use to beat Zygarde, since apparently we're all incapable of building properly. So, what Zygarde answers do you use?


oh


bruh you can't have your cake and eat it too. How are you gonna call SubToxic and Rest bad sets, and then simultaneously say Alomomola is a bad check because it loses to those very same sets????


This is another huge contradiction. You say bulu, clef, and lando "do the job most of the time" in this paragraph, despite having said in the last paragraph that they "barely check zyg in the first place"???????? which is it???????????

I haven't responded to every point from your post because I'd like to keep my psyche intact considering the arguments are either contradictions, not based on anything (referring to the deflection to ash gren and saying ppl are just voting ban bc they're bored of the meta), or just flat out wrong.

Ok since you seem to have misunderstood like half of what I said I'll clarify:

I never said sub toxic was a bad set, it's however a less frequent set for the reason it is relatively slow and lacks glare making it less notable as it does far less to offensive builds. I probably overlooked it a little due to me predominantly being an offense player, but yeah it's not shit and I never said it was. As for DD 3 attacks (regardless of if it be z or WP), it's like the worst of the viable sets and the stuff you said it beats I've already said are clearly the worst zyg checks that actually function. As for the mention of camouflage that's more cause it's mentioned like every fucking day in the OU room rather than this thread, although I can see why you'd bitch at my inclusion of it.

You seem to have taken the building part personally for some reason, all I was saying is the majority of ppl use 1 check that loses to zyg a good amount of the time and act like the team is not absolutely bodied by zyg. Yes bulu/clef/lando are checks to zyg but they're shaky and shit like tang/gliscor/reuni/buzzwole and more I'm probably missing do a much better job but we use the patchwork answers cause they do more shit overall. There's nothing wrong with that, you just can't say it's broken when you know your check is shaky and there are better ones available and think "It'll do", it's like having ferrothorn as your only ash gren check and blaming ash gren for that, I've no idea why ppl do it with zyg.

Again, I never said sub toxic and rest were bad (I didn't mention rest at all so idk what I said to make you think that), nor did I say mola was a "bad check". It doesn't check all of its sets (which is pretty fucking obvious) and just maybe that should be dealt with in the builder rather than blamed on zyg.

Again as much as they're patchwork answers they kinda do the job so they help, as much as they're gonna lose to a set of you rely on them too heavily (as in if you don't have another check). Also this isn't a contradiction because they barely do the job, so it's ok to say they do the job while also saying they're kinda shit at it (hence the barely). Again ppl have the ability to not constrain their teambuilding if they're happy to lose to a certain zyg set, which I think is fine but you can't pretend it's a solid check when it's just about doing the job and you accept that in order to have the team to be better on the whole.

 

[Not Miyan]

Just got the reqs, I will be voting for NO BAN
Zygarde is really good pokemon, however I think it needs a lot of support to set up.
If there's a bulu or tang in a team then it almost becomes really hard to get sweep with zygarde. Another reason for not banning zygarde is that it keeps certain top tier threats in check like heatran, alakazam, volc and blace etc and gives soft check to these mons otherwise a dedicated check/counter. I gtg rn I'll add more later

 

[Finchinator]

Another reason for not banning zygarde is that it keeps certain top tier threats in check like heatran, alakazam, volc and blace etc and gives soft check to these mons otherwise a dedicated check/counter. I gtg rn I'll add more later

Whenever you do come back, could you elaborate as to how it keeps Alakazam, Volcarona, and Blacephalon in check? And then why this makes it less broken? I feel like it’s not really a good countermeasure to any of the three and I also feel like increased defensive utility is a positive presence as opposed to one that makes it less banworthy. I think you’re misrepresenting your argument or misunderstanding some fundamental aspects of the suspect.

 

[Not Miyan]

As a regular user of zygarde, I don't think that it is unhealthy for the meta while I think it is a very essential part of the meta. The reason behind this is that it keeps a lot of mons in check while also being a prominent sweeper. I said it keeps alakazam, volc etc in check because some team archetypes do not have a specific check or counter or don't have a slot to have one. Zygarde fulfills this role really well. Zygarde gives a soft check to them in different ways like glare, band sets. I will provide some calculations

+1 252 SpA Volcarona Savage Spin-Out (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 148+ SpD Zygarde: 360-424 (85.7 - 100.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
This is the glare coil set and able to survive z volc. it can keep volc in check by paralyzing it.

252+ SpA Alakazam-Mega Psychic vs. 252 HP / 148+ SpD Zygarde: 165-195 (39.2 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
same as volc, it can take hits from alakazam and can paralyze it.

having zygarde on balanced teams really helps as it can check these mons and can potentially sweep late game. it compresses multiple roles.
if zygarde gets banned balanced teams will lose a key mons.

 

[Deleted User [433215]]

As a regular user of zygarde, I don't think that it is unhealthy for the meta while I think it is a very essential part of the meta. The reason behind this is that it keeps a lot of mons in check while also being a prominent sweeper. I said it keeps alakazam, volc etc in check because some team archetypes do not have a specific check or counter or don't have a slot to have one. Zygarde fulfills this role really well. Zygarde gives a soft check to them in different ways like glare, band sets. I will provide some calculations

+1 252 SpA Volcarona Savage Spin-Out (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 148+ SpD Zygarde: 360-424 (85.7 - 100.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
This is the glare coil set and able to survive z volc. it can keep volc in check by paralyzing it.

252+ SpA Alakazam-Mega Psychic vs. 252 HP / 148+ SpD Zygarde: 165-195 (39.2 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
same as volc, it can take hits from alakazam and can paralyze it.

having zygarde on balanced teams really helps as it can check these mons and can potentially sweep late game. it compresses multiple roles.
if zygarde gets banned balanced teams will lose a key mons.

That doesn’t tell us how it’s any less broken. If anything, you’re hurting your point. Since you’re just showing how absurdly bulky Zygarde for a setup pokemon as well as how much it can do in a single slot for a team. You didn’t even try to explain how it isn’t broken or how the points brought up by pro banners aren’t enough or valid to need Zygarde banned. And those threats you listed will actually be easier to provide counter play to once Zygarde is gone since you’ll have more freedom to run other stuff to check them.

 

[Dingosig]

Well, many people have been asking my opinion about this suspect, either because I have been spamming a lot of Zygarde variations lately in tournaments (and almost always having success when doing so) or because I have been arguing in favor of a suspect in OU for some time now, so yea there I go.

Firstly I need to say that this suspect is REALLY crucial right now, since we probably will not have any other in SM OU before the new gen gets released, plus Zygarde has not an obvious attribute that makes it ban worthy. It has many checks and counters, which seems fine at first, but none of those are reliable to stop the most used Zygarde sets at the same time (barring mew, it checks the most relevant variations but just dies to +1 Z-Stab anyway) and the main reasons that makes zyg an unhealthy presence are its uncompetitiveness thanks to its ability to wear down, overwhelm and/or lure supposing checks in such an easy way (and never having big drawbacks), an incredible capacity to support many offensive threats offensively and defensively (be it via wallbreaking or simply spreading bad status) while not needing much support of team mates to do its work, huge defensive stats to a bulky-offensiveish mon and besides it all, if thats not already enough, the fact that NOTHING is immune to its main ground-type move (also stab), which is definitely stupid and unbalanced, just by itself.

Talking about its versatility: no, it DOES NOT need the right set to win games, or even to do something in a game, simply because it has all it needs almost every time since Thousand Arrows always hits, and every single set works around wearing down supposed checks to either just spam arrows at some point later in the match by spreading its own bad status and coverage, or making team mates way more dangerous thanks to its offensive support, which is a thing that no other pokemon in OU does except for Greninja (thats also suspect material, by the way). And even when it has like "the right set" to win, seems absurd to me that a mon can have the right path to run over the opp's teams in such a recurring way. Literally every single used set has enough potential to be relevant in almost every matchup, and yes, it does limit the amount of options in a team building. I cant simply use tapu bulu and pretend like I dont have problems against Zyg, or even Tangrowth and Clefable: I need ways to check it and counter it too as a backup plan, because at least two out of the 5~6 MOST USED sets (I actually meant the most used, there are like 5 extra movesets that are also good enough) abuse these pokemon.

Some other things should be mentioned, like: bulky Tapu-Bulu (specially the BU one) DOES NOT check the main zyg set (coil + bad status), the Toxic version just wins for obvious reasons (also winning if your check is Tangrowth) and Glare gives room to outstall bulu's PPs since Horn Leech does not break Substitute in one hit after the Grass Terrain's effect goes away [calc] and Coil + Glare have such a big PP number that its really difficult to win in a scenario like this one (and im not even considering the SD + Synthesis version, whereas just loses pretty easily after getting paralyzed). SD + Ice Fang Gliscor is almost as good as mew when checking Zyg, except considering that you need to be faster to actually win the 1x1 AND can't simply throw it in the first time before checking the zyg set, otherwise you can potentially get paralyzed and just lose anyway (and will lose a considerable bulky to run so many speed too). Clefable, Latias-Mega and Landorus-T are fine checks but are way more susceptible to Zyg's natural ability to lure and wear down checks, since clef and lati hate getting paralyzed and landorus always gets chipped naturally against either zyg or standard threats during the games. I could even mention scizor but it always needs full HP to check CB arrows + it literally forces a 50/50 of who gets the crit first and zyg always has the substitute advantage + the paralyze factor on its side anyway so yeah, just another try to check broken zyg without many success.

Last but not least, the ground-type is known since the first gen as one of the best offensive types ever. Having ground immunities has always been one of the main things to consider when building a team because Earthquake gives a plethora of targets and a more than good coverage option to offensive threats, and after gen 4 earth power just added more sense to this need. Now, Thousand Arrows abuses this offensive type with mastery, ignoring ground immunities and making grass types the only answer to this move, which is not an issue to deal as seen by the zyg's coverage, typing, stats, etc.

Just to finish, here are some replays in where zyg was supposed to be checked but simply found a way to win or be relevant:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-404270 - OLT Vs. Zuch - Got haxed a lot but zyg just did what its supposed to do and was a pain to deal with. I had tang and landorus.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-400833 - OLT Vs. ABR - chipped his lando and just won with a DD version, showing how zygarde can just click setup and damage moves without drawbacks. He had clef and landorus.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-400834 - OLT Vs. ABR - Was really difficult to him not getting overwhelmed by zyg + ts, id prolly not click glare vs his tang if I had not a plan to possibly lure that with landorus. free turns against an already passive mon is always appreciated anyway. he had tang and offensive counters.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-395433 - Snake Vs. RedEmption - All I needed to do here was clicking arrows like twice vs his lando and then I had a clean sweep after a DD or two. Unfortunately I wasnt on my best day and he did what he needed abusing of a possible missplay by my part. Zyg was huge anyway, just wanted to show again that it doesnt have drawbacks in just spamming broken arrows.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-306812 - WCOP - John Vs. BlackOblivion - Not recent ofc, but evey time someone talks about zyg's ability to win vs anything this game comes across my mind.

I had a replay of a zyg winning vs BU bulu but I couldnt find it, I will try again tomorrow or w/e. From now I say that I will lose many teams if zyg gets banned because I really find it broken and spam as much as I can, but even considering it I think banning zyg is the way to go and the meta will develop positively after doing it so.

Most of these replays are not showing much:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-404270 : zygard did nothing but resting on gren, and could have died with better rolls or flinch

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-400833 : Z steel zygard is a matchup dependant set and he had an insane matchup there, so him sweeping isn't surprising. Also pretty much any other DD sweeper could've swept at this point.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-400834 : Z fly lando did all the job by luring tangrowth. If zygard counter gets removed he will obviously have a good chance to sweep. It's like being shocked that a fleur / focus gear or a gren can sweep after pex die. it looks normal to me.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-395433 : red only had scarf lando (and serp I guess) to defensivly check zygard so he was kinda weak to it but zyg didn't do anything exept chipping lando.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-306812 : this one is better. T spike + zyg is definitly very strong. However, protean gren did everything. He had no switch in, lured tangrowth, pretty much killed it and got hazard up.

I don't find these replays very relevant, and you could have done the same kind of post with pretty much any mon in the tier, like showing replays of ash gren winning against pex thanks to his own spike/pulse flinch or heatran beating his counter with Z move/burn.

Also people seems to forget that there is a lot of game where zyg doesn't have the right set and doesn't work really well, maybe you could post that kind of replay too.
Excuse my english if there is any mistake.

 

[Apotheosis Mod]

Now that I got the requirements, I'll share my opinion. DO NOT BAN Zygarde.

The main 'Ban Zygarde' arguments include:

• Unparalleled versatility: Zygarde has access to very interesting, scarcely distributed tool such as Glare, Coil, Dragon Dance, Thousand Arrows, Extreme Speed and more, which allow it to function as a bulky setup sweeper, an offensive breaker or even an anti-setup tank. By virtue of this, Zygarde can run an impressive amount of different sets and to tell which set Zygarde is running can be quite the challenge. Zygarde always does something relevant in every game thanks to this quality.
• Defensive and offensive checks and 'counters' can all be answered according to the tools Zygarde is using: SubProtect Toxic variants can dispose of Tangrowth and Hippowdon, SubCoil Glare beats Tapu Bulu, Choice Band Iron Tail or even Corkscrew Crash destroys bulky Fairy-types like Clefable, bulky Tapu Bulu or even Shuca Berry Magearna, Groundium Z or Dragonium Z answer Mew relatively well, Dragon Dance gives it the speed boost it needs to beat offensive checks before they can move, Weakness Policy sets utilize the sheer bulk Zygard has to turn it into a fearsome sweeper, and while all these sets are not equally viable and certainly not equally used, they exist and are to be accounted for while scouting which Zygarde set one fights before placing their bets.

As for the main 'Do Not Ban Zygarde' arguments:

• While in truth there exist many sets Zygarde can run to muscle past its counters, only a few are really being used. Dragon Dance, SubCoil Glare and Choice Band are the most common sets, with Toxic variations, Z-Crystals, Weakness Policy and more classified as obscure, underused sets. This said, Zygarde isn't nearly as versatile in practice as theory makes it sound it is.
• Besides, Zygarde can only effectively run one set, and this set is bound to lose to a counter in the opponent's team. Zygarde is a highly viable Pokemon and should as such be accounted for when teambuilding, much like Greninja-Ash mandates the use of appropriately specially bulky and/or resistant Pokemon, or like Heatran, Magearna, Landorus-Therian, Tapu Koko and many other Pokemon's presence and high viability in the tier dictates the need for Ground-type attacks, for Electric immunities, for hazard removal, for Ice-type coverage. Zygarde is not specially broken to the point where it overcentralizes teambuilding by forcing players to bring obscure, otherwise unviable Pokemon to defeat it. The same Tangrowth, Tapu Bulu, Clefable, Mew, Hippowdon, defensive Landorus-Therian, Gliscor, Charizard-Mega-X, Greninja and more are all highly useful not only against Zygarde, but against a wide array of different threats. Are players summoning Camerupt-Mega from the depth of NU to deal with Magearna? Are players bringing Cryogonal or Articuno to spin away/defog Landorus-T's stealth rock, attack it with a STAB four times effective move and be immune to its Earthquakes? The same answers you use against Zygarde are usable against different threats and are therefore never deadweight in any team, in any game.

I'm not making new points, just re-iterating most of what was said, because the discussion cannot drag to infinity. Most of the issue has been explored, and I side with the 'Do Not Ban' arguments because I find them more logical. In the end, you fight one set, and you either have answers, or must adapt your team to have answers to the most efficient tactics available.
This is why I'll be voting Do Not Ban. I will gladly discuss the stated points further with anyone who wishes to so long as we remain polite.

 

[talah]

As for the main 'Do Not Ban Zygarde' arguments:

• While in truth there exist many sets Zygarde can run to muscle past its counters, only a few are really being used. Dragon Dance, SubCoil Glare and Choice Band are the most common sets, with Toxic variations, Z-Crystals, Weakness Policy and more classified as obscure, underused sets. This said, Zygarde isn't nearly as versatile in practice as theory makes it sound it is.
• Besides, Zygarde can only effectively run one set, and this set is bound to lose to a counter in the opponent's team. Zygarde is a highly viable Pokemon and should as such be accounted for when teambuilding, much like Greninja-Ash mandates the use of appropriately specially bulky and/or resistant Pokemon, or like Heatran, Magearna, Landorus-Therian, Tapu Koko and many other Pokemon's presence and high viability in the tier dictates the need for Ground-type attacks, for Electric immunities, for hazard removal, for Ice-type coverage. Zygarde is not specially broken to the point where it overcentralizes teambuilding by forcing players to bring obscure, otherwise unviable Pokemon to defeat it. The same Tangrowth, Tapu Bulu, Clefable, Mew, Hippowdon, defensive Landorus-Therian, Gliscor, Charizard-Mega-X, Greninja and more are all highly useful not only against Zygarde, but against a wide array of different threats. Are players summoning Camerupt-Mega from the depth of NU to deal with Magearna? Are players bringing Cryogonal or Articuno to spin away/defog Landorus-T's stealth rock, attack it with a STAB four times effective move and be immune to its Earthquakes? The same answers you use against Zygarde are usable against different threats and are therefore never deadweight in any team, in any game.

I'm not making new points, just re-iterating.

On phone so excuse formatting.

I've already stated my position too much so I went go in depth. That being said, this has a lot of things that are just...wrong.

Z crystal sets and especially Toxic are not at all "obscure" sets. Toxic DD is arguably the best set atm and the Zs while underused are still very potent and relatively underprepped for. WP, Double Dance and Dragonium are the only niche sets and of all those only Double Dance is truly obscure, which is because it's only really good in HO.

You make a comparison to Ash Gren and multiple Pokémon that except Magearna have no real point of comparison. I've explained why before but a good TL;DR is that they don't offer Zygardes immense defensive utility while still maintaining great offensive presence. Only Magearna gets anywhere close to it and even then it's really not lol

Oh and as a side note can people stop fucking bringing up Ash Gren to compare Zyg too when it's literally the polar opposite of it?? 1 incredible set that you know and can prep for versus a myriad of sets that you can't

You also mention Hippo which would most definitely not have any usage outside of Stall if it weren't for Zygarde(not that it gets impressive usage right now),

Defensive Lando which would also be significantly worse if it weren't for Zygarde, it's not even particularly good right now,

Clefable which is on the down low and always should be ran alongside another Zyg check,

Mew that half the reason it sees the little usage it does is Zygarde

and then randomly 2 offensive Mons that aren't of particular note against it.

Hell, Bulus not a good Zygarde check at ALL, it loses to literally every popular Zygarde set(SubGlare, Toxic, CB, Steelium).

Tangrowth would still see substantial usage without Zygarde in the tier but NOT near the levels it sees atm.

Out of the very large list you mentioned, Zygarde is a vital part of their usage for all them(except for the random Zard and Gren that have nothing to do with it??)

Like obviously this is a discussion on opinions and I know I said this before but the no ban arguments in this thread are either shallow or pointless. Please carefully consider the arguments on both sides and take note of the best posts on each one. There's literally 1 good post on the no ban side and even that isn't concrete, compared to like 10 great posts on the pro ban side. Like sure it's anectodal evidence at best and I'm not trying to belittle anyone but seriously, read through the thread actually.

 

[lydian]

Just wanted to say something really quick, I've seen way too many comparisons of Zygarde with other top tier OU Pokémon. Like sure they each are strong in their own rights, but comparing Zygarde to the likes of Heatran, Ash-Greninja, and Mega Mawile is just extremely far fetched. Like, honestly, what do they even have in common aside from being good in the current metagame? Like Talah said already Ash-Greninja and Zygarde are nearly polar opposites. Heatran and Mega Mawile are somewhat versatile, but they have like two sets and Zygarde has a dozen. The only comparisons that make some sense are Magearna and Volcarona, but even then, the former has a couple definitive checks like Assault Vest Magearna, and Jirachi, and the latter requires a lot more support to set up and doesn't have nearly as much bulk as Zygarde does.

But even then, let's say these were fine comparisons. So what? The suspect test is on Zygarde not on any of these. Listing a dozen of random top tier OU Pokémon doesn't make Zygarde any less broken. If your mindset is that Zygarde is actually broken but blank is more broken and should be suspect tested first, well you're just being selfish then, because you're not thinking about the status quo of the tier and how a Zygarde ban would help but instead just your own biased view of which Pokémon should be suspect tested. If you're drawing these comparisons to make a point that Zygarde is normal just like the other top tier Pokémon, well, you're just being dumb then, like sure they can share a trait or two, but no other Pokémon has a way to literally cheese through and beat every single one of its checks with viable sets. And no, Psychium Z Volcarona and SubSwarm Volcarona aren't viable.

But yeah, echoing Talah's thoughts a bit but please consider the arguments you're using before brainlessly picking some random A+ and S ranks to compare to Zygarde. That's all thanks for reading

 

[5FingerMachPunch]

I haven't played mons seriously for over a year and I'm not really a frequent forum poster. However, I enjoy following tours and watching tour games whenever I have free time to do so, and I do want to start slowly changing my inactivity on here and w/ mons in general. I really just wanna drop in to respond to Dingosig's post because I feel there's misunderstandings in regards to the points that Eternal Spirit was trying to make or just flat out incorrect claims being made with nothing to back them up. Also, this is likely the best way to help myself try to maybe motivate myself get back into mons slowly, so even if I don't plan to go for reqs or most people already beat me to the points I would've made in favor of banning Zygarde, I think I've watched enough tour games/replays to give my opinion here both on the post and my general thoughts on Zygarde, so here we go.

Most of these replays are not showing much:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-404270 : zygard did nothing but resting on gren, and could have died with better rolls or flinch

idk what kind of game you watched, but Zygarde didn't do "nothing but resting on gren" really. While yes that was the only move it really clicked in the whole match, it honestly didn't really need to do much else to be the annoying mon that it is and do something. Infact, Zygarde Toxic'd Tangrowth, which was very good for Zuch (look at Zuch's team and look back at Tangrowth) and allowed him to actually make some progress. If anything, this replay shows how absurdly bulky Zygarde is as a whole.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-400833 : Z steel zygard is a matchup dependant set and he had an insane matchup there, so him sweeping isn't surprising. Also pretty much any other DD sweeper could've swept at this point.

While Z Steel is definitely not a common set by any means and it did have an insane matchup, I think other Zygarde sets would've done something here anyways. Banded just clicked Thousand Arrows pretty freely and Iron Tail smacks Clef around, and WP, while also fairly niche would've weakened the team too, and status sets do what status sets always do (mostly Glare). The main point I really wanna touch on here is the fact that you say that any other DD sweeper could've swept at this point, which is just blatantly wrong. Just listing off the good DD Sweepers, Zard X doesn't have the easiest time since it can't ever freely click DD since Lando is just gonna come in anyways so you gotta click Flare Blitz, not to mention Lando was Scarf here so unless Zard X somehow got 2 free DDs (gl with that vs ABR's team). Gyarados has an easier time, but it's hard pressed to really set up for free vs anything besides like Lando locked into EQ, and it's not like ABR doesn't have the tools to outplay Gyarados. To keep this from getting too long because besides Mega Gyara, there's no other really solid DD Sweepers that're OU relevant and I'm not even gonna touch on Mega Gyarados. The thing is these can't even be compared to Zygarde, like, at all besides just being DD Sweepers because Zygarde has much more going for it that basically every Pro Ban user before me has stated over and over (go read those btw if you haven't yet!).

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-400834 : Z fly lando did all the job by luring tangrowth. If zygard counter gets removed he will obviously have a good chance to sweep. It's like being shocked that a fleur / focus gear or a gren can sweep after pex die. it looks normal to me.

I honestly think you just entirely missed the point here. Even if Z-Fly Lando didn't lure Growth, ES had T Spikes support as well w/ Pex, so Growth was gonna be pressured regardless, and Sub Zygarde would put in work here in general since either M-Diancie or Gren is gonna have the sacrifice themselves so the other can reliably RK Zygarde as it'll likely be behind a Sub + other obvious reasons when they come out, and by then Zygarde's already done what it needs to.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-395433 : red only had scarf lando (and serp I guess) to defensivly check zygard so he was kinda weak to it but zyg didn't do anything exept chipping lando.

Ignoring the fact that ES misplayed this game badly, you're not really looking at the bigger picture here. The point of this replay was to show just how spammable Thousand Arrows is vs teams, and this is just a very prominent example of that in play here w/ this team. You even acknowledge this yourself and point out how spammable Thousand Arrows is vs this team, so if anything you just made the opposing argument even stronger here, even if Zygarde didn't do much due to how poorly it was played. Literally all Zygarde had to actually do was click Thousand Arrows 2 times vs Lando and then it would've pretty much swept.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-306812 : this one is better. T spike + zyg is definitly very strong. However, protean gren did everything. He had no switch in, lured tangrowth, pretty much killed it and got hazard up.

While Protean Gren did indeed weaken Growth to a point where Zygarde just won, Toxic Spikes again would've put pressure on Tangrowth regardless of whether Gren weakened it or not. Also Gren didn't do "everything" as you claim it did. Also, Zygarde had a very solid chance of winning this just on its own with solely the T Spikes support just looking at BO's team. All it really needed to do besides get Growth poisoned was find the right opportunity to get a Sub up and Zygarde would've weakened BO's team to a point where it couldn't come back and win if it didn't outright win itself. The point ES was trying to make with this replay was the fact that, despite all the countermeasures BO had for Zygarde, it still just wasn't going to be enough to keep it back with decent playing ability and that Zygarde can just steal games away, and it does so way easier than just about anything else in the tier.

I don't find these replays very relevant, and you could have done the same kind of post with pretty much any mon in the tier, like showing replays of ash gren winning against pex thanks to his own spike/pulse flinch or heatran beating his counter with Z move/burn.

Also people seems to forget that there is a lot of game where zyg doesn't have the right set and doesn't work really well, maybe you could post that kind of replay too.
Excuse my english if there is any mistake.

Alright so again I feel you entirely misunderstood the points that ES made. The replays are very much relevant to his argument and support everything he said. Whether you think this makes Zygarde unhealthy/broken is your own opinion and I'm not gonna try to sway you otherwise, but stating that the replays aren't relevant is just outright incorrect. Also, showing replays of something like Ash Gren flinching down a Pex or Tran blowing something away w/ a Z-Move rly isn't the same as posting these replays because Gren isn't as versatile as Zygarde in punishing counterplay nor has the bulk Zygarde does, and Heatran has much more offensive counterplay which means it's much easier to play out a game vs Heatran than it is vs Zygarde if both KO/cripple their intended targets. While yes, we can agree that Glare Zygarde parahaxing a Tangrowth to death or Ash Gren flinching a Pex to death is all luck, let's not try to bullshit and say that these things happens consistently. More often than not, Pex is gonna lose to Ash Gren cause it's too pressured by hazards or pressured trying to check something else to really come in on Ash Gren reliably than it will by getting flinched down by Dark Pulse. As for Heatran, while the argument isn't entirely wrong, you fail to acknowledge that Heatran has lots more offensive counterplay than Zygarde does, so this point looks shaky at best. Hell, these 2 shouldn't really even be compared to Zygarde anyways, as they don't have very strong parallels to each other. If you wanted to make any parallels with Zygarde to anything, Magearna is really the closest thing to having strong parallels with Zygarde.

As for your last point regarding how Zygarde isn't the right set and won't do a lot, this is also blatantly wrong unless you're literally throwing your Zygarde away because all Zygarde needs to do is click Thousand Arrows or status throughout a game to do something meaningful. Even if it's not outright sweeping itself, it's supporting its team very effectively while still remaining a potential threat and having the bulk to check things, which is something almost no other mon can do. Whether you believe this makes Zygarde banworthy or not is again for you to make your own spin on.

I'm not gonna sit here and rehash other points that people have already made since I think I've done enough of that above, but I believe that, between me watching lots of tour games with Zygarde in action and learning how to build myself taking Zygarde into account, I find Zygarde to personally be unhealthy for the tier, and I believe that banning Zygarde will lead to a healthier metagame both playing-wise and building-wise, even if Zygarde isn't outright broken in my eyes.

edited the post slightly to add a little more clarity to a couple points I made at the end

 

[LordHelix]

Just wanted to say something really quick, I've seen way too many comparisons of Zygarde with other top tier OU Pokémon. Like sure they each are strong in their own rights, but comparing Zygarde to the likes of Heatran, Ash-Greninja, and Mega Mawile is just extremely far fetched. Like, honestly, what do they even have in common aside from being good in the current metagame? Like Talah said already Ash-Greninja and Zygarde are nearly polar opposites. Heatran and Mega Mawile are somewhat versatile, but they have like two sets and Zygarde has a dozen. The only comparisons that make some sense are Magearna and Volcarona, but even then, the former has a couple definitive checks like Assault Vest Magearna, and Jirachi, and the latter requires a lot more support to set up and doesn't have nearly as much bulk as Zygarde does.

But even then, let's say these were fine comparisons. So what? The suspect test is on Zygarde not on any of these. Listing a dozen of random top tier OU Pokémon doesn't make Zygarde any less broken. If your mindset is that Zygarde is actually broken but blank is more broken and should be suspect tested first, well you're just being selfish then, because you're not thinking about the status quo of the tier and how a Zygarde ban would help but instead just your own biased view of which Pokémon should be suspect tested. If you're drawing these comparisons to make a point that Zygarde is normal just like the other top tier Pokémon, well, you're just being dumb then, like sure they can share a trait or two, but no other Pokémon has a way to literally cheese through and beat every single one of its checks with viable sets. And no, Psychium Z Volcarona and SubSwarm Volcarona aren't viable.

But yeah, echoing Talah's thoughts a bit but please consider the arguments you're using before brainlessly picking some random A+ and S ranks to compare to Zygarde. That's all thanks for reading

Stop pretending zygarde is some behemoth that cannot be compared to lmao.

Heatran has similar bulk and can customize its moveset to literally beat all its counters, same with magearna while both offer endless resistances and utility. How are they not comparable to zyg exactly?

Heatran has two sets? Lol it can use its firium z, steelium z, grassium z and toxic/protect to blast its checks. Oh and it can also use the all powerful toxic and willowisp to beat its defensive counters since nothing defensive wants to switch onto toxic and taunt

And magearna? It can run a z move or volt switch to beat all its counters, thats not mentioning how easily it beats u if u guess the wrong set. Like if u play thinking its av or tr and its shift gear ur getting swept and vice versa. Magearna doesnt even need to rely on para hax to beat all its checks

I dont care abt these two mons honestly and its not really relevant to the suspect test but to say that zygarde is the only unique mon in this tier that has attributes of being excellent defensively and offensively is very very misleading, so stop trying to paint it as such

Edit: also considering volcoranas two good sets to beat its counters as unsets while counting all zygarde sets to make it seem like a dozen is hypocritical

 

[SolaceAcheron]

I have some things to say about Zygarde. While I haven't played the meta as of late because it's pretty stale, I've played enough games and watched enough content to be able to make an informed decision. Sadly won't be getting reqs, but I like voicing my opinion so....

Like with the Dugtrio suspect test of old, it's sometimes important to analyze not the Pokemon as a whole entity, but what exactly about this Pokemon is broken, and is that singular thing large enough to warrant a ban. In Dugtrio's case, it would have been Arena Trap, which was tested later and banned quickly, lest the crowd realize the mistake that was made in only testing Duggie alone.

First, let's examine Zygarde and what makes it unique and potentially Broken/over the edge, and see if that applies here:

-Glare: As a move that can paralyze everything but Electric types with 100% accuracy, many people point to this move as prompting examination in the first place. Zygarde often runs it on both setup sets, and banded sets, hoping to cripple a switch-in. It's also a rare move that only a few Pokemon get, Serperior being the other one. Still, with a nerfed paralysis this generation and low availability, this is not the thing that drives Zygarde over. Why? Praying for free turns with hax does not constitute a broken Pokemon, just a lucky one. In a ladder setting, it means Zygarde gets more setups than usual, but it does not guarantee the setup will be successful. All in all, let's just compare it to the next closest move, Thunder Wave. The only difference is that Glare not only hits Ground Types, but is a little more accurate. In essence, that's not much of a difference.

-Dragon Dance + Coil: Zygarde is the only Pokemon with this godly combination of setup moves; it can choose one or both and still be devastating. Boosting defense with Coil raises an already impressive defensive stat to sky high amounts, which is why both work. There are, however, semi-common threats to setup moves in Unaware Clef and Quag, but not viable enough to warrant use on a majority of teams. That being said, I only see these types of setup situations win with good team support such as dual screens/aurora veil, or Iapappa Berry. Those fall outside the purview and should not be a factor whatsoever in deciding if Zygarde is broken.

-Thousand Arrows: Yah...about that. 1000 Arrows is actually a really REALLY good move. It essentially gives Zygarde an Ability that it lacks by letting it hit Flying/Levitate Pokemon, sometimes for Super Effective damage, without needing to use a move like Gravity first. That being said, it is Zygarde's only consistent move throughout it's sets as an offensive mon, and deservingly so. Some sets only rely on it for damage. As a move, I think this would be more broken on OTHER Pokemon, but on Zygarde it was a well deserved buff it desperately needed. Still up in the air about this being healthy or not, but banning it alone would be a far cry (not that it hasn't been done before **cough cough Geomancy in X/Y**).

Individually from that, I see nothing on Zygarde that is broken. There's no shining quality that screams "AHA there it is" that actually breaks Zygarde. So next, we should examine if Zygarde has an unhealthy influence on the metagame attempting to check it? Only as much as the next broken Pokemon in the tier, if not less (see my example above with Ash-Greninja). Tapu Bulu, Mew, Tangrowth, Landorus-T, Clefable, Mega Scizor...these are all viable checks, at least soft ones, and Zygarde does not cause abnormal or redundant usage in the tier. Some of the sets change slightly to accommodate this Pokemon, but most of them would not change their sets if Zygarde was banned today. In fact statistically, those soft checks to Zygarde are more often needed as soft checks to Landorus-T...hmmm...not gonna open that can of worms right now though. Zygarde does not affect the usage within the OU metagame in an unhealthy way, and I think there are other Pokemon much more guilty of this.

Lastly, and this is the hardest part, we have to examine Zygarde as a whole entity since everything else failed. That's all the above...put together in a single picture. This is what most people do off the bat, but I like to make sure I'm not missing anything first. I think comparing this Pokemon to the "recent" Naganadel ban is unfair, so I'm going to go with a Pokemon that is much more comparable, and that's Hoopa-U in Gen 6. Everyone talks about versatility with Zygarde, but Hoopa was (and is) the king of versatile sets. And it was that kind of versatility and unpreparedness that prompted a test and ban; in a metagame where it seemed natural to use Scarf and Band and there were no offensive checks to it, it was the Choice Specs set that actually broke it in the end. Now, I don't agree with that ban for personal reasons, but it's water under the bridge.

When going into a game against Zygarde, I can expect a few things that I must watch out for; Thousand Arrows, Status Move, Set Up Move, and scout for Choice Banded or Z move. I listed 3 of those things above as maybe being broken for Zygarde, go figure. Everything else is not really gonna be seen all that often, and is usually checkable by some degree. When players went into a game against Hoopa-U, they had to watch out for: Choice Band, Choice Scarf, and Choice Specs (and they still kinda do) in a metagame where power had not crept up that far yet. Forget the moves included on those sets because it's a lot, but the checks for each of those sets back then were usually completely different Pokemon from each other, unlike in Zygardes case where even with a variation in set, the same Pokemon still generally soft check it.

If I had time to vote, I would vote NO BAN. Zygarde is extremely strong, but it is not unbalanced nor does it cause an abnormal change to the metagame to deal with it. What "breaks" Zygarde are team strats like Dual Screens and Heal Berries + it's setup moves, the former that are not exclusive to Zygarde and should not apply. It has common enough soft checks which should be on most teams regardless because they also soft check other Pokemon, namely Landorus-T. And lastly, it is not as versatile as people believe it is, with 3 viable offensive moves, 2 viable setups, and 2 viable status moves. Some Pokemon have WAY more than that, including right now in OU. And for me, all this in mind, I don't think any of this validates a ban, and it's my personal opinion that other Pokemon should have been looked at before Zygarde, and I hope it's the same for anyone else reading this.

 

[spatula]

And lastly, it is not as versatile as people believe it is, with 3 viable offensive moves, 2 viable setups, and 2 viable status moves. Some Pokemon have WAY more than that, including right now in OU.

You are being disingenuous if you are not considering the number of sets it can run with combinations of these 7 moves as well as moves like rest, protect, substitute, in addition to the items it can hold such as 3 viable z crystals, leftovers, pinch berry, choice band, and weakness policy. Some pokemon in the tier might have more viable moves than zygarde, but zygarde does not need to sacrifice as much since it only has one required moveslot (tarrows). You might not be aware of the variety of zygarde's movesets and reducing it to "its not that versatile cause it only has 7 viable moves" is straight up false.

 

[vso]

i got reqs about a week ago and never intended to post here but several of the (especially recent) anti-ban arguments have been wrong imo. saying zyg doesnt influence top tier mons' moveslots is utterly wrong as sets like hp ice tang, curse scizor, hp ice lando-t, and ice fang gliscor would have been much rarer with ice beam clef also seeing a decreased usage. however, this doesn't solely make it broken as so do many other centralizing mons.

however, zygarde can use a variety of different sets and can make the tier worse as glare spamming can bs past many checks (curse scizor comes to mind first) and its overall nicher sets can make the tier far more matchup reliant as you can't handle every zyg set without using something ridiculous like ice beam slowbro + tang + ice beam clef. also, people saying zyg doesn't influence teambuilding that much since you're already supposed to have checks is also completely wrong. i tried playing a few test matches in a zygless meta with friends with teams and normally the teams i (and they) came up with were more offensively oriented because you have far more freedom to choose something like manaphy ferro spikes or things like that

also here were the teams i built + wishkiller https://prnt.sc/m0gkix. notice how they have very few common mons which were like ferrothorn gliscor skarm and ash gren twice and heatran 4 times and 4 of the mons were in team 2. while zyg isnt a glaring hole in the last 3 teams it can pose an issue to all of them not team 6, which looks like a pretty standard zyg meta team. they were also far easier to build and rather than being strapped for slots, i had plenty of free mons. i really like these teams and quick games in all honesty and the majority of teams go either to offense or bulky offenses as hyper offense (often considered mindless) gets far worse without zygarde. stall needs to outplay plenty of stallbreakers like gliscor heatran kyurem manaphy and whatever else.

finally, please don't use broken checks broken arguments because thats REALLY against the smogon policy and i highly doubt even a preceding heatran ban. tl;dr the things that truly make zyg broken are it being a huge teambuilding factor which can still make many games much more hax reliant and mu based that is the driving force of mindless cheese playstyles and overall slower playstyles are more pressured.

 

[Finchinator]

Stop pretending zygarde is some behemoth that cannot be compared to lmao.

Heatran has similar bulk and can customize its moveset to literally beat all its counters, same with magearna while both offer endless resistances and utility. How are they not comparable to zyg exactly?

The Heatran comparisons is really foolish and off base.

First off, there is universal counterplay. Heatran is never breaking any bulky Zygarde itself, SDef Mew on Stall (the set I posted on all my teams), Mega Latias, etc.

Second off and more importantly, it can adapt to most checks and counters through Z Steel or other Z moves, sure. The thing with that is that it breaking through just means it gets one extra kill or puts you in an awkward position. Zygarde breaking through means it gets multiple or sweeps eventually given what it’s sets are. There is a drastic difference between these two outcomes and that’s why Zygarde is so scary.

Magearna comparison is a bit closer, but it never really adapted to the metagame per se or settled with a couple dominant variants like these. I respect its versatility and the prospect of it being an actual suspect in the future as it has so many viable options between SG CM Pain Split IceBeam TBlolt FlashCannon FleurCannon FocusBlast etc, but it’s not there right now and it’s set distribution is scattered to the point where it’s pretty challenging to make a pinpointable argument on its behalf that draws parallels to Zygarde. Again, maybe if things develop in its favor moving forward, but I don’t see it being there rn.

I dont care abt these two mons honestly and its not really relevant to the suspect test but to say that zygarde is the only unique mon in this tier that has attributes of being excellent defensively and offensively is very very misleading, so stop trying to paint it as such

He is entirely correct in drawing this conclusion because of the potential win condition Zygarde can be, which I outlined above. I really think you’re underselling Zygarde here. I reckon that there haven’t been any similar cases to it specifically over the course of SM, so the debunk approach of comparison seems like a flimsy one to me, too.