OM Mashup Megathread

So me and The Number Man have been working on a VR for STAB 'n' Mega, and this is what we came up with.

Disclaimers:
  • We were working within our own experiences, and with some of these Pokemon were downright theorymonning, so if you believe we got something wrong with this, please just let us know!
  • We also have yet to break these Pokemon down into more specific tiering than S, A, B, and C ranks. There are currently no fancy A+ or B- yet. Maybe later. For now, they will be listed in their respective tier in no particular order alphabetical order.


S Rank


:corviknight:Corviknight (Sablenite, Venusaurite)
:ditto:Ditto (Choice Scarf)
:rotom-wash:Rotom-Wash (Banettite, Latiasite, Latiosite, Absolite)
:silvally:Silvally (Ampharosite, Ghost Drive)


A Rank


:braviary:Braviary (Lopunnite, Salamencite)
:chandelure:Chandelure (Houndoominite, Lucarionite, Charizardite Y)
:dragapult:Dragapult (Pinsirite, Diancite, Absolite)
:dugtrio:Dugtrio (Choice Band, Diancite)
:excadrill:Excadrill (Pinsirite, Scizorite)
:ferrothorn:Ferrothorn (Venusaurite)
:hippowdon:Hippowdon (Venusaurite, Slowbronite)
:lucario:Lucario (Pinsirite, Altarianite, Lopunnite)
:mandibuzz:Mandibuzz (Venusaurite, Sablenite)
:rhyperior:Rhyperior (Scizorite, Heracronite)
:rotom-heat:Rotom-Heat (Latiosite, Charizardite Y)
:snorlax:Snorlax (Aggronite, Sablenite, Banettite)
:toxapex:Toxapex (Banettite, Latiasite)
:umbreon:Umbreon (Audinite)
:vaporeon:Vaporeon (Audinite, Pinsirite, Audinite)


B Rank


:arcanine:Arcanine (Pinsirite, Altarianite)
:avalugg:Avalugg (Aggronite)
:cinderace:Cinderace (Lopunnite)
:darmanitan-galar:Darmanitan-Galar (Choice Band, Mewtwonite X)
:dracovish:Dracovish (Sharpedonite, Swampertite)
:gengar:Gengar (Lucarionite, Diancite, Absolite)
:gyarados:Gyarados (Audinite, Gyaradosite, Salamencite, Lucarionite)
:hatterene:Hatterene (Sablenite)
:jolteon:Jolteon (Charizardite Y, Lucarionite, Pinsirite)
:mamoswine:Mamoswine (Scizorite, Heracronite)
:mantine:Mantine (Audinite)
:orbeetle:Orbeetle (Sablenite)
:rotom-fan:Rotom-Fan (Cameruptite)
:shuckle:Shuckle (Gyaradosite)
:Sylveon:Sylveon (Venusaurite, Sablenite, Banettite)
:toxtricity:Toxtricity (Pinsirite, Aerodactylite)
:zamazenta:Zamazenta (Choice Scarf)


C Rank


:flareon:Flareon (Banettite)
:glaceon:Glaceon (Glalitite)
:heliolisk:Heliolisk (Lucarionite)
:seismitoad:Seismitoad (Gyaradosite)
:sirfetchSirfetch'd (Lucarionite, Pinsirite)
:tyranitar:Tyranitar (Steelixite, Scizorite)
 
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Sorry for taking this long but, STABmons LC setpedia is now here.
STABmons LC Setpedia
:bunnelby: Bunnelby
:dewpider: Dewpider
:dreepy: Dreepy
:dwebble: Dwebble

:eevee: Eevee
:ferroseed: Ferroseed
:frillish: Frillish
:joltik: Joltik
:mantyke: Mantyke
:munchlax: Munchlax
:onix: Onix
:pancham: Pancham
:pawniard: Pawniard
:ponyta: Ponyta
:ponyta-galar: Ponyta-Galar
:pumpkaboo: Pumpkaboo-Super
:stunky: Stunky
:woobat: Woobat
:wynaut: Wynaut

Back to the Spotlight:


I'm gonna give my view on why was Ditto so good in STAB n Mega:

The MnM council mentions that Ditto gets a buff in this generation due to two reason:
  • Limited Dex.
  • Lack of Return/Frustration.
The first reasoning is true, we have only few pokemon to choose from. The second reasoning means sweeper are unable to used Return/Frustration to potentially self-improof themselves. ( I. e. using Frustration so Ditto can only have 1 BP move rather than 102 BP due to maximum happiness.)

Speaking of Improofs, this RMT mentions that "Many MnM teams have little in the way of Imposter-proofing for their sweepers", which make sense because this isn't something like Balanced Hackmons. While it is from Gen7, this is more noticeable in Gen8 due to the aforementioned limited pokemon.

Ditto also isn't too niche in Mix and Mega compared to other tiers: it is currently ranked A- in Mix and Mega. And in terms of ladder usage:

Code:
| 24   | Ditto              |  6.60298% |
This is Ditto's usage in Gen7 Mix and Mega(1760) in October. Despite its few usage on some tours like OMPL, Ditto has decent amount of usage on the ladder. While it is from past gen, this is for some kind of proof about Ditto being used.

Code:
| 4    | Ditto              | 27.43044% |
Now, this is its current usage in Gen8 Mix and Mega(1760) on December when Eternatus was legal. It should be noted that Dynamax is banned in Mix and Mega right from the beginning, so that's not the reasoning behind Ditto's high usage.

While this is only from standard, its also affected STAB n Mega too. Ditto is now better given with the buffs mentioned above and the restriction of Extreme Speed. Others are already stated their reasoning, so read them.

Edit to avoid double post:
Announcement

Shedinja has been banned from Balanced Hackmons, and this will affect BH-based Mashups such as Camomons BH.
 
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I regret double posting this, but no one has ever posted anything here since the previous post, and i need to save some space on the said post for the setpedia...:psysad:. Anyways, here's another annoucement.

Announcement

Normal Sprite

Zacian-C and the move "Double Iron Bash" are now both banned from Balanced Hackmons, and this will affect our BH-based Mashups such as Camomons BH and LC BH (in case on the latter).
 
Sorry to delay this one again, but here's the AAA Setpedia.

AAA LC Setpedia
:bulbasaur: Bulbasaur
:chinchou: Chinchou
:croagunk: Croagunk
:diglett-alola: Diglett-Alola
:drilbur: Drilbur
:farfetch Farfetch'd-Galar
:ferroseed: Ferroseed
:frillish: Frillish
:hippopotas: Hippopotas
:klink: Klink
:krabby: Krabby
:mareanie: Mareanie
:morelull: Morelull
:oddish: Oddish
:onix: Onix
:pancham: Pancham
:pawniard: Pawniard
:ponyta: Ponyta
:ponyta-galar: Ponyta-Galar
:scraggy: Scraggy
:spritzee: Spritzee
:stunky: Stunky
:timburr: Timburr
:vullaby: Vullaby
:wingull: Wingull
:zigzagoon: Zigzagoon
Back to Spotlight:

So I've been seeing some STAB n Mega tours being made, but with someone requesting to ban Double Iron Bash before the match starts.(I admit I'm also setting the tour with the move immediately banned). I'm aware of its annoying 51% flinch chance, but is there going to be a proper announcement of the move being banned in STAB n Mega? its kind of weird that the move is getting banned without announcing it in this thread...

Another thing:
I've tested some Mashup codes, the tour rules "Gen 8 Almost Any Ability" doesn't seem to allow pokemon access to any legal abilities, and its effect is only banning abilities that are banned from AAA. I've also tried combining it with "!Obtainable Abilities" just like the ones from CAAAmomons, but it didn't work and shows a Custom Error instead. So here's the fixed version:

Camomons + Almost Any Ability
Almost Any Ability LC

In AAA LC, Gothita is now properly unbanned. The new AAA policy prevents it from using Shadow Tag, despite being a native user. Cherubi is also properly unbanned as well due to others having access to other weather such as Drizzle, Primordial Sea, etc., and there's also another pokemon with near similarities to Cherubi, which is Budew.

Tagging drampa's grandpa for the tour code.
Edit: Trying to avoid double post unless mine is posted like a week ago, it seems to getting inactive than i thought... :psysad:

Announcement
:ss/Obstagoon: :ss/Diggersby:
Extreme Speed is now
banned in STABmons, and this will affect our STABmons-based Mashups such as STAAABmons and STABmons LC. It should be noted STAB n Mega already restricted the move prior to this.
 
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ANNOUNCEMENT!

The Stab N Mega council is going to be looking at Ditto and Double Iron Bash in the next few days. We dislike the effect Ditto has on the metagame and are strongly considering quickbanning it, but we will first hold a few unofficial suspect tours where Ditto will be banned, to get a feel for the DIttoless metagame. If we still aren't sure whether to quickban it, we will hold an actual suspect test soon.
Double Iron Bash is another point of contention. While it's not officially banned, we have been adding it to the banlist when holding SNM tours as we dislike the RNG aspect. With that said there aren't many abusers and those that exist can be prepared for (with Ditto in a worst case scenario) but 180BP with Scizorite and 50% flinch chance is still overpowered. We will be reaching an official decision on DIB as well.

If anyone has any input, especially if you disagree with us on banning Ditto, please let us know!
 
With the release of Pokemon Home, I have decided to quickban Bolt Beak in STABmon Doubles, as Zeraora will be the premier Bolt Beak user due to it being one of the fastest Electric-type that would deal double the power to most of the Pokemon if they're not using priority move backed up by its good Attack stat. It also benefits from Max Airstream and Tailwind, with setting Trick Room not being reliable against it unless it's done beforehand or with redirection. This is also done to streamline the banlist since I would have to ban Thundurus and Tapu Koko if I were to ban Zeraora instead of Bolt Beak. For my next watchlist, it would be Decorate next.
 
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ANNOUNCEMENT!

The Stab N Mega council has decided to go through with banning Ditto and restricting Double Iron Bash (DIB). Reasoning:
  • Ditto - the prevalence of setup based wallbreakers in the tier strongly incentivizes putting Ditto on your team, so much so that most teams are just Ditto + five other mons. In these Ditto vs Ditto matchups, the first player to "pull the trigger" and set up an SD or Plot to start wallbreaking is often the one who ends up losing the game if the wallbreaker in question was not improofd. But, chances are, if your wallbreaker was able to punch a hole in your opponent's team, it will be able to do so to your team as well. The only difference is then that you cannot use Ditto to revengekill the wallbreaker threatening you team, as it has already been impostered. Keeping this in mind, Ditto spam encourages passive and drawn out gameplay, where the fatter team will usually win out because it gives less reverse-sweep opportunities to the opposing Ditto.
  • DIB - despite not having many abusers this is still a 120 BP move with a 50% flinch chance. The closest analog in regular play is scarf Jirachi with Iron head, but Jirachi's lack of setup, mediocre attack stat and Iron Head's middling base power mean that Jirachi has to string together multiple flinches to be able to beat supposed checks. Compare that to Scizorite Drill for example, which gets Spin + SD to boost speed and attack and Tech boosted DIB reaching 180 base power. With this much power 1 flinch can be all it needs to break through a supposed defensive check and win the game because of it, AND there's a 50% chance of it doing so. This is pretty uncompetitive and leads to feelbad scenarios. Steel types also resist both common types of Ate-priority, which means that a Drill at +1 speed from Spin can be quite hard to revenge kill, letting it quickly snowball out of control.
In other news, Home has dropped and with it came the previously unreleased mons. Among them is Kyurem Black which has not been quickbanned from OU for some reason. Regardless, it will be treated as an Uber for the purposes of SnM and will be banned from holding stones.

We will also be keeping an eye on Bolt Beak. Until now there haven't been any broken abusers of it - the best probably being Toxtricity due to shift gear - but home has given us Zeraora and Zekrom, two relatively fast physical electric types. Both seem like very powerful abusers of the move, so we might have to restrict it as well.

TLDR: Banning Ditto from SNM, restricting DIB in SNM, banning Kyurem Black from holding stones in SNM.

Tagging drampa's grandpa for the tour code.
 
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Ponyta @ Eviolite
Ability: Desolate Land
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Solar Blade
- Morning Sun
- High Horsepower

Ponyta seems to have some buffs in this generation. First, it has gained access to Solar Blade in this generation, which is useful on physical Desoland sets. The other buffs includes the reduction of other 19 and 20 Speeders with Abra, Staryu, and Elekid gone(though the latter might be able to be released via DLC) and the restriction of Ability even on native users, notably Arena Trap Diglett. This thing is going to be even greater than before.
Ponyta @ Eviolite
Ability: Flame Body
Level: 5
EVs: 76 Atk / 156 Def / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Play Rough
- High Horsepower
- Morning Sun
- Will-O-Wisp
Ponyta now has access to Play Rough, which gave it a reliable Fairy-typing. I've started to liked this Fairy/Ground set for good STAB combination and can act as a bulky attacker as well with its ability to spread burns through Flame Body or Will-o-wisp. Other offensive sets that involved Fire-typing can be good option as well.

Pawniard @ Eviolite
Ability: Adaptability
Level: 5
EVs: 156 Atk / 36 Def / 116 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance / Stealth Rock / Brick Break
Pawniard has finally regained its access to Knock Off. Previously, its offensive presence got greatly hurted without Knock Off and some defensive pokemon such as Mareanie are able to reliably check Pawniard with little to no drawbacks as it avoids a 2HKO from Adaptability Night Slash after Stealth Rock. Now it has returned to its former glory.
And other non-LC mons

Mew's already insane versatility is further improved with the returning of its old moves back, most notably, recovery move such as Softboiled and Roost. In this generation, Mew gets some nice offensive movepool such as Dragon Dance, Brave Bird, Flare Blitz. But what I liked is its access to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, which gives bulkier team an option for hazard-stacking.

Announcement
Double Iron Bash and Bolt Beak are now banned from STABmons, and this will affect our STABmons-based mashups such as STAAABmons and STAB n Mega.

I will hold a couple of STABmons LC tour withing a few days with Bolt Beak legal as a retest before I banned it immediately because I have mixed feelings of it for these reasons:

All available Electric-Types in LC have middling or average Attack stats, with the highest one being only reaching 14 Atk stat, which is achieved by Joltik, Electrike and Yamper. While Bolt Beak still deals a lot of damage against bulky pokemon when equipped with Life Orb, they aren't OHKOed unless its chipped down enough, even with maximum Attack investment. While 17 Speed is a good Speed Tier, some pokemon can reach the same 17 Speed to force a tie, such as Onix, Drilbur and Vulpix-Alola, and there are some other faster pokemon such as Dreepy, Ponyta, Cutiefly and even Wingull, as well as Choice Scarf users. While Electric-Types can run Choice Scarf as well, locking into Bolt Beak leaves them vulnerable against teams with a Ground-Types, even with coverage moves, its much dangerous if its trappers like Diglett and Trapinch, though this may have nothing to do with "broken checks broken" thingy. In addition, it also loses the additional power Life Orb provides, notably using coverage to hit bulky Ground-Types. Joltik has to invest in Attack stat for Bolt Beak to reliably 2HKO Munchlax and Spritzee after Stealth Rock, but it has to forgo a slight Special Attack EVs and makes Energy Ball unable to 2HKO 14 SpD Mudbray. If they're still problematic, then I'll quickbanned it.
 
I want to post this one team I've been messing around with in STAAABmons, that was built around a Regenerator Doublade/Turtonator core, it works decently well (though it's certainly outdated, since it was made pre-home), and should be a good place to start for new players

:turtonator: :doublade: :grimmsnarl: :corviknight: :ferrothorn: :togekiss:

Turtonator/Doublade make for a solid Regenerator core that can be very hard to crack without a ground type. As for Ground types, Stamina Corviknight hard-counters pretty much every single Ground type, especially Excadrill. Dazzling Grimmsnarl acts as a hard counter to Dragapult, while acting as a backup counter to Triage setup sweepers. Desolate Land Ferrothorn is about as close to a hard counter there is to rain, which is something I try to prepare for (at least, to some extent), and helps when dealing with a certain Pokemon that likely should be banned (which I'll get to later). Poison Heal Togekiss is a solid blanket fighting type check (though it will have a hard time with Terrakion, considering this team was made before it was released via Home).


After seeing a little bit of Home format, there's two things I'd like to mention. The first is that apparently, Dracovish is legal, despite being banned in base AAA. Not sure why this was changed, I don't think there was any suspect test for it being unbanned or anything. The second thing to mention is that Terrakion is very clearly broken beyond belief currently, and desperately needs a quickban. The problem is that it can run multiple different sets, and each one has a difficult time being walled. For instance, Doublade can be easily cracked open with Scrappy, and there appears to be now drawback for doing so. The only Pokemon that appears to reliably counter Terrakion is Hippowdon, which has limited use outside of countering Terrakion. As such, I do not believe that Terrakion should be allowed to stick around in STAAABmons.

The only other Pokemon that might need to be looked at is Keldeo. Its a special attack monster (though that alone doesn't break a Pokemon) that has Fighting and Water STAB, giving it two special priority when fighting offense, plus it can run Poison Heal CM sets against fatter teams. Not sure if it'll break the format quite like Terrakion will, but it does have the potential to just landslide from what I can see.


EDIT: So this was just tested after I posted this, but apparently, Sparkling Aria works with Sheer Force. Not sure this is how it works in-game, but that's how it works on the server currently. If this turns out to work on console, this might just push Keldeo over the edge, with Sheer Force STAB Sparkling Aria capable of ripping through stuff without immunities/quad resists.

Source battle.
 
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I'd like to piggyback on NOC's post and share some of my own thoughts on STAAABmons in the post-home meta.

1) Terrakion. I could not agree more on this being absolutely banworthy. We had a tour yesterday and every game we played revolved around Terrakion (or terrakions, if both players used it). There's multiple viable sets (Scrappy, Adaptability, Tinted Lens; Choiced or SD), but the best all around set imo is LO Magic Guard. This set abuses LO boosted Head Smash coming off of a base 129 atk stat, while also being able to set up an SD to pressure anything that could actually take a hit from it. Importantly, LO boosted Head smash hits about as hard as Banded Adaptability Stone Edge, with the added bonus of being able to switch moves and set up SDs.

:Terrakion:
Terrakion @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Head Smash
- Close Combat
- Earthquake/Accelerock/Stealth Rock/Mach Punch

This set is very similar to Tyranitar's LO Mguard set which also abuses the relative lack of viable Rock resists (Kommo, Doublade, Ferro, Hippo, Conk - none of these really want to get Knocked either) to spam Head Smash and collect 2hkos everytime it comes in. There's a key difference however - TTar is much slower and as such more easily revenged and it does nothave access to SD. Even scarier is the fact that despite Terrakion being noticably less bulky than Tyranitar, it's still not frail by any means, easily living Adaptability Dragon Darts from Adamant Scarf Dragapult from full. There's also the fact that Terrak can tech it's 4th slot to beat whatever it wants to - EQ for doublade, Accelerock to kill faster threats at +2 or even rocks/mach punch.
The only surefire way to check it defensively is Dauntless/Unaware Hippo, but even that doesn't KO back without attack investment and is notoriously passive, being bait for Magic Bouncers, Ferrothorn, Corviknight and similar mons. As for offensive checks, most Triage mons can revenge it as well as Dazzling Pult and faster threats that hit it SE and resist Accelerock, but that list isnt very long either (Scarf Keldeo?).

TLDR: Terrakion is way too strong in STAAABmons.

2)
Triage grass types. This is obviously not a novel concept, as triage grass types have been used in the past (Triage Bulu in gen7 AAA if nothing else), but I haven't seen anyone use em yet in STAAAB this gen. A disclaimer - the set I'm about to share isn't originally my idea as I saw Drampa share it in the mashups chatroom a while back and I recently remembered it and decided to build a team around it since its not the standard set ppl tend to use:

:ferrothorn:
Ferrothorn @ Life Orb
Ability: Triage
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
IVs: 30 Spe
- Horn Leech
- Swords Dance
- Strength Sap
- Sunsteel Strike/Knock Off

The beauty of this set (and similar ones) is actually strength sap. It lets you beat some supposed checks while also giving offering very good recovery and easing set up. Triage Sap also means you can switch it into resisted attacks with its great natural bulk and sap all the hp back - letting it act as a pivot early game. Triage HL obviously acts as a lategame wincon, notably breaking prankster pex (barring scald burns) since it moves faster than haze, with Sunsteel for unaware walls or Knock for doublade. Speed is set to underspeed minspeed Golisopod (so it gets a fast uturn out and has to guess what to bring in).

The team i used this on was built pre-home, but with home out there's another 3 mons that can use a very similar set (that operate pretty similarly):

:celebi:
Celebi @ Life Orb
Ability: Triage
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Giga Drain
- Photon Geyser
- Strength Sap

:Decidueye:
Decidueye @ Life Orb
Ability: Triage
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Giga Drain
- Moongeist Beam
- Strength Sap

:virizion:
Virizion @ Life Orb
Ability: Triage
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Grav Apple
- Strength Sap
- Drain Punch

Special sets are obviously preferred since it means burns arent an issue, but ferro is the only thing that is immune to toxic. Celebi and Decid also have the advantage of being able to switch into keldeo relatively safely. Viriz is the worst of the bunch imo, but it might have a niche.
 

drampa's grandpa

turtonator's gurtonator
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
Following the release of Pokemon Home we are going to be looking at several of the Pokemon released as potential bans or suspects.

To forestall any possible confusion Marshadow, Kyurem-White, Lunala, Solgaleo, Mewtwo, Reshiram, Zekrom, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, and Necrozma-Dawn-Wings are all banned from STAAABmons, CAAAMOmons, All LC OMs (lol), AAA Doubles, STABmons Doubles, Camomons Doubles, and from Mega Evolving in STABmons + Mix and Mega (no Mewtwo can't use Mewtonite). This is all by default, and the leaders or councils of these metas are free to undo any of these bans as they see fit. I doubt these will come as any surprise to most however.

On to the individual metagames and however slightly less broken mons!

STABMONS + ALMOST ANY ABILITY
:ss/kyurem-black:
Kyurem-Black is now QUICKBANNED from STAAAB. Its absurd attack stat backed up by Dragon Dance, Ice STAB, good coverage in Fusion Bolt, and good bulk makes this thing nearly impossible to deal with without totally warping your team structure. While Refrigerate sets aren't quite as potent this generation without Return / Frustration its STAB moves from STABmons more than make up for that, and it can run Technician, Adaptability, Poison Heal, Magic Guard, Sheer Force, and many other abilities. Essentially: The cover legend that never quite made it gets what it needs here.

:ss/terrakion:
As said previously in this thread, Terrakion is absolutely terrifying to face in STAAAB. Between Adaptability and Tinted Lens (and apparently Magic Guard :o) it has almost 0 switch-ins, primarily limiting you to Hippowdon. It also has access to priority and a good speed tier, making revenge killing it difficult.

We are strongly considering a quickban on Terrakion.

:ss/keldeo:
Keldeo has made fewer waves than Terrakion, but is still a notable menace. Water / Fighting is an exceptional offensive typing, and Keldeo is capable of blowing through most walls with a combination of Water Spout and Secret Sword. Adaptability, Sheer Force and Tinted Lens are the abilities I have seen run so far, but I expect to see more. Rain is what I see potentially pushing Keldeo over the edge, thanks to the absurd power of its Spouts in rain. However Keldeo does have its flaws: Chip damage such as from hazards greatly diminishes its biggest nuke. The most common Keldeo sets are choiced, and both of its STABs have immunities, making locking into a move abusable. Most of its coverage moves are very weak, only hitting very specific targets, if anything harder, than STAB moves. What do you think?

We are considering a suspect of Keldeo. If more evidence of Keldeo being over-the-top broken comes to light we are willing to consider a quickban.

:ss/kyurem:
While this has received less talk than the above Pokemon, I will still be keeping my eye on it for the time being. It has exceptional bulk for an offensive Pokemon, and has very good mixed attacking stats and coverage. It can set up with Dragon Dance or Clangorous Soul and absolutely has the bulk to use either, potentially more than once. Its main drawbacks are its atrocious defensive typing and its lack of good physical coverage moves for Dragon Dance sets (Earthquake or Fusion Bolt for instance).

There is no planned action for Kyurem, but we do have our eyes on it.

CAMOMONS + ALMOST ANY ABILITY
:ss/kyurem-black:
Kyurem-Black is quickbanned from CAAAMO. Its absurd physical attack stat combined with its ability to remove its biggest flaw, its typing, combine with newfound access to Dragon Dance to make an absolute monster.

:ss/kyurem:
We will be keeping our eyes on Kyurem for the time being. Kyurem is extremely flexible with high overall stats, recovery, and a good movepool. It is incredibly difficult to switch into while maintaining good bulk and unpredictability. Here are some sets I made for it but I'm sure there are many many more.

No action on Kyurem-N will be taken for the time being.

...
That's it for now! Please please let us know what you think about all the potential suspects and bans, anything I didn't mention that you think is potentially banworthy, and about all the new additions Pokemon Home brought us.
Sorry if a lot of this was obvious but I wanted to say it anyway and let y'all know what's going on :D

Cheers! :drampa:
 
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Announcement


Drifloon and Vulpix were now banned from LC, in addition to unbanning Cherubi, This will affect LC-based Mashups except BH LC. Vulpix will be remained unbanned in AAA LC due to others gaining access to Drought as well, and there's a rather superior Fire-Type in Ponyta. Drifloon will be retested in the meanwhile to see if the metagame is able to handled its Unburden set with Berry Juice + Recycle: Its main set behind its ban. ( I would strongly in favor of quickbanning Vulpix or Drought (If Charizardite Y + sun abuser were also deemed broken) in Mix and Mega LC if it became official or spotlight.)


Sneasel is now quickbanned in BH LC. It was already banned from the previous gen, and I don't see this staying longer. Type:Null is also now quickbanned just like in previous generation.

Bolt Beak will be temporarily banned in STABmons LC due to near lack of activity (I'm aware about this for a long time. Hence, I barely set it.)

Here are some updated LC Tour Codes (tagging drampa's grandpa for the code):
AAA LC
STABmons LC - Note: Fishious Rend, Double Iron Bash and Bolt Beak are banned as a whole. This is due to lack of native users available to used the complex ban ( -Pokemon + Move ).
Camomons LC - forgot to unban Arena Trap and Shadow Tag, as both were allowed by Little Cup rules. Sorry :/
Balanced Hackmon LC -also updated to include Double Iron Bash ban.

I'm going to update the existing LC Setpedia shortly to include Home updates.
 

drampa's grandpa

turtonator's gurtonator
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
This cycle's Spotlight is wrapping up! Thanks to the STAB n Mega council for everything they've done over the past month :)

The new spotlight is STABmons + Almost Any Ability

In regards to recent bans in STABmons and Almost Any Ability...
  • Double Iron Bash is already restricted in STAAAB (good riddance)
  • Bolt Beak is now BANNED from STABmons + Almost Any Ability. The addition of boosting abilities to already powerful abusers of the move pushes Bolt Beak even further into broken territory, practically forcing Electric immunities. Note that the tour code we have been using uses STABmons as a base so this was already in effect in tours since the STABmons ban went through.
  • Keldeo will remain legal for the time being. If it proves broken we can ban it here, however it has so far proven to be less of a standout issue than Terrakion.
 
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drampa's grandpa

turtonator's gurtonator
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
Keldeo is actually not being banned from STAAAB for the time being, as per my post on the 15th. This is despite it being banned in AAA.

Some sets for STAAAB!

:ss/darmanitan:
Darmanitan @ Choice Band
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature / Adamant Nature
- V-create
- U-turn
- Superpower
- Earthquake

This thing hits absurdly, absurdly hard.
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dauntless Shield Hippowdon in Harsh Sunshine: 298-352 (70.9 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Hippowdon in Harsh Sunshine: 225-265 (53.5 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dauntless Shield Seismitoad in Harsh Sunshine: 201-237 (48.5 - 57.2%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I don't think anything legal avoids a 2HKO from V-Create that isn't hit by one of the coverage moves. Flash Fire or Primordial Sea (and some Thick Fat Pokemon that, lol, already resist Fire) are the only things that actually wall this monster. And Desolate Land is far from the only ability it can run. Mold Breaker ruins Flash Fire / Thick Fat Pokemon, Tinted Lens doubles down on breaking resists, Magic Guard doesn't boost power but protects from hazards and can let you run Life Orb if you want to switch up moves, Tough Claws boosts coverage moves as well as your main STAB.

Checks and counters include:
Being immune to Fire (or Thick Fat bulky Water)
Prankster Jellicent. You can Strength Sap it and only maybe die after rocks. Also die to Tinted. Not a very good counter.
Revenging it after it drops its speed

:ss/kyurem:
Kyurem @ Light Clay
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blizzard / Freeze Dry
- Aurora Veil
- Earth Power
- Roost

This set is a cool Veil setter with nice offensive presence and recovery. Nothing particularly complicated. It has decent offensive presence thanks to its good Special Attack and type coverage, but its not going to be breaking teams in half. Leave that to the mons it supports. The main flaw of this set IMO is that it has no pivoting, meaning you can't bring in the sweepers you're trying to support with Veil as easily as you'd like.
252 SpA Kyurem Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 180-213 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

:ss/melmetal:
Melmetal @ Metronome
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature / Jolly Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Autotomize
- Body Slam
- Earthquake

Jolly outspeeds up to base 117 at +2
Adamant outspeeds up to base 102 at +2

Yes this set is utterly cancerous and totally leans in on haxing opponents. No I'm not sorry.

:ss/keldeo:
Keldeo @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Secret Sword
- Protect
- Calm Mind

While the standard Keldeo set is absolutely going to be a choice set (Specs ftw) I have been giving this a try. I'm not sure if Spout is ideal yet, but it's cool. Poison Heal keeps it at a fairly high BP, but the low PP isn't ideal. A good partner for the Kyurem posted. This was inspired by the BH Pogre sets from last generation that ran Pheal + Spout (although that was at least in part because it helped imposterproof the set so :blobshrug: ).

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I'm hoping to start moving on tiering decisions soon, but I would like to get some discussion going first. Please post your thoughts here on which, if any, Pokemon you see causing problems in the metagame, along with any neat sets you have!

I personally currently have my eye on, in approximate descending order of urgency: Terrakion, Keldeo, Darmanitan, Melmetal, Dragapult, and Kyurem :drampa:
 
I'm hoping to start moving on tiering decisions soon, but I would like to get some discussion going first. Please post your thoughts here on which, if any, Pokemon you see causing problems in the metagame, along with any neat sets you have!

I personally currently have my eye on, in approximate descending order of urgency: Terrakion, Keldeo, Darmanitan, Melmetal, Dragapult, and Kyurem :drampa:
I'd like to offer some input on the problem mons rn and hopefully others will as well.

I've already talked about terrakion in my previous post:
I'd like to piggyback on NOC's post and share some of my own thoughts on STAAABmons in the post-home meta.

1) Terrakion. I could not agree more on this being absolutely banworthy. We had a tour yesterday and every game we played revolved around Terrakion (or terrakions, if both players used it). There's multiple viable sets (Scrappy, Adaptability, Tinted Lens; Choiced or SD), but the best all around set imo is LO Magic Guard. This set abuses LO boosted Head Smash coming off of a base 129 atk stat, while also being able to set up an SD to pressure anything that could actually take a hit from it. Importantly, LO boosted Head smash hits about as hard as Banded Adaptability Stone Edge, with the added bonus of being able to switch moves and set up SDs.

:Terrakion:
Terrakion @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Head Smash
- Close Combat
- Earthquake/Accelerock/Stealth Rock/Mach Punch

This set is very similar to Tyranitar's LO Mguard set which also abuses the relative lack of viable Rock resists (Kommo, Doublade, Ferro, Hippo, Conk - none of these really want to get Knocked either) to spam Head Smash and collect 2hkos everytime it comes in. There's a key difference however - TTar is much slower and as such more easily revenged and it does nothave access to SD. Even scarier is the fact that despite Terrakion being noticably less bulky than Tyranitar, it's still not frail by any means, easily living Adaptability Dragon Darts from Adamant Scarf Dragapult from full. There's also the fact that Terrak can tech it's 4th slot to beat whatever it wants to - EQ for doublade, Accelerock to kill faster threats at +2 or even rocks/mach punch.
The only surefire way to check it defensively is Dauntless/Unaware Hippo, but even that doesn't KO back without attack investment and is notoriously passive, being bait for Magic Bouncers, Ferrothorn, Corviknight and similar mons. As for offensive checks, most Triage mons can revenge it as well as Dazzling Pult and faster threats that hit it SE and resist Accelerock, but that list isnt very long either (Scarf Keldeo?).

TLDR: Terrakion is way too strong in STAAABmons.

1) Keldeo (TLDR: seems to be warping the metagame, so a suspect would be good imo)

The metagame is beginning to warp around Keldeo. It has a very limited number of natural switchins (ie mons that resist both of it's stabs, these being Pex, Decidueye, Celebi, Venusaur, Roserade, Primarina, Jellicent, Dhelmise), but it's wide variety of viable sets let's it tech to beat pretty much any of these. For example, Pheal Keldeo can sit on Pex for days (unless pex runs gastro acid, but that is an important slot being sacrificed), as well as possibly CM out of range of Jellicent. SF LO Keld can tech Air Slash to 2hko all the grasses on the switch and there is always the Specs Tinted Lens set which 2hkos pretty much everything with Water Spout. Inteleon has a similarly powerful Specs spout, but it doesn't have secondary stab, which usually means you can slap Water Absorb (WA) on pretty much anything and be ok vs it. Keldeo on the other hand is only really stopped by WA ghosts or WA on mons that 4x resist fighting - such as Togekiss, for example - the existence of which is a direct consequence of Keldeo pressuring teambuilders to find adequate counters and would absolutely not be a thing if Spout Sword coverage didn't make it necessary.

On the other hand, the popularity of Keldeo and Terrakion means that Triage Grass types are very strong right now, as they are the best offensive counterplay for them.

2) Darmanitan (TLDR: is the problem Darm or Vcreate? - a suspect might be in order)

Im honestly not sure that Darmanitan is the issue here - the problem might be Vcreate's base 180 power. Even before home DesoBand Cinderace was terrorizing the meta with limited counterplay apart from prankster resists, Pheal Kommo (which is more of a soft check than anything else) and FF mons (ferro is 2hkod by HJK). Darm obviously hits much harder but sacrifices a considerable amount of speed for it so there is some tradeoff, but they also form a nice Firespam core together, eventually overwhelming fire resists and breaking through. As for non FF counters, 4x fire resists such as Turtonator can work, but it still takes a lot from Darm EQ.

252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Turtonator: 202-238 (62.3 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

3) Melmetal (TLDR: not banworthy rn)

This thing has been very effective in every game i've watched/played, but it hasn't seemed banworthy. It has the issue of being vulnerable to magnet pull, inviting in DesoBand wallbreakers to revenge kill as well as wanting multiple abilities to really shine in its role as an insanely bulky tank that dishes out a lot of damage. Regenerator can be run to improve its longevity (very useful vs more offensive teams) but then it struggles to break bulky resists, whereas damage boosting abilities like Tech/Steelworker/Tinted Lens help it break, but mean it gets worn down pretty easily. There's also the issue of Stamina mons that have been popping up to deal with DIB. I guess we have to see if the serene grace set is cancerous enough to push it over the edge.

4) Dragapult (TLDR: not banworthy rn, also think it has a positive influence on the metagame)

Band Dragapult can be tough to switch into besides Grimmsnarl and Dauntless/Intim/Stamina ghost resists, but the latter group has use outside of countering pult (general physical sponge + Melm switchins). More importantly tho, both of it's stabs have immunities, which means it forces a lot of 50/50s, rewarding good prediction (something I'd argue is a good thing).

My fav set however is Scarf Dragapult, which is by far the best revenge killer in the tier, especially in the absence of Imposter Ditto. Even if Ditto were legal, I'd much rather use Pult due to it having access to Uturn. It's amazing insurance vs a lot of setup sweepers and lets you get away with not running prankster haze/unaware. The only setup sweepers it can't check are some normal and dark types like Lax and Goon, but those can be handled with bulky Fighting types such as Cobalion and Kommo or just Band CC/Specs Secret Sword from Terrak/Keld. Adamant Scarf outspeeds pretty much everything relevant so Jolly isn't necessary. Adding on Adaptability means it retains decent wallbreaking ability in the lategame, after its checks have been chipped down. It obviously doesn't do much vs stall but there's 5 other slots you can dedicate to that. The other viable ability is Dazzling which lets it check most Triage mons pretty reliably.

I can't offer any insight on Kyurem as I haven't used it nor played against it yet.
 
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Just gonna drop some offensive STAAAB sets which are pretty great right now which need more attention:

Terrakion @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Head Smash
- High Jump Kick
- Swords Dance
- Accelerock
Gyarados @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Crabhammer
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
Tyranitar @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Head Smash
- Sucker Punch
- Stealth Rock
- Knock Off
Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flash Cannon
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Dynamax Cannon/Roost
Zeraora @ Life Orb
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Bolt Strike
- Play Rough
- Close Combat
Keldeo @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- No Retreat
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Calm Mind
 
STAAAB sets!

Lingering Doom (Jirachi) @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spdef
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Teleport
- Wish
- King's Shield
- Future Sight

This thing is bulky. Really bulky. It can teleport out of almost anything and bring in an appropriate answer while healing quite a bit of damage.
King's Shield allows scouting choice users, as well as innately synergizing with Wish - while wishpassing itself works incredibly well with Teleport's negative priority.
Future Sight allows Jirachi to gain some additional offensive momentum off passive threats, supporting its' teammates in breaking teams and generally easing setup and pressuring opponents into certain plays.

For best results, pair this with a good unaware or prankster encore/topsy-turvy support as rachi itself can be setup fodder.

Replay:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8stabmons-1066426333

Gyarados @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crabhammer
- Brave Bird
- Dragon Dance
- Roost

This set is about as straightforward as an offensive set can be. Mguard LO BB hits strong, crabhammer is great additional coverage alongside it and dd gives sweeping potential.

Roost aids longevity to allow switching into predicted EQs a bit more recklessly

The New Meta (Snorlax) (M) @ Sablenite
Ability: Immunity
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 188 HP / 128 Def / 192 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin
- Court Change
- Recover
- Transform

Kyurem @ Cameruptite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power
- Roost

A Solid Snake (Gyarados) (M) @ Lucarionite
Ability: Intimidate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Brave Bird
- Crabhammer
- Roost

We Washin' (Rotom-Wash) @ Ampharosite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Strength Sap
- Volt Switch
- Will-O-Wisp
- Spectral Thief

Arcanine @ Pinsirite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Morning Sun
- Extreme Speed
- Double-Edge

Tactical Luke (Lucario) (M) @ Altarianite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Close Combat


It's a real, solid HO if you find a good replacement for kyurem (which used to be a ditto).

This was originally built for the ditto meta, with each mon on the team imposterproofing another while posing an offensive threat itself. That part of the team (which basically ensured being 6-5 thanks to ditto's omnipresence) isn't the case anymore, but it turns out dual Espeed still hits pretty hard and transform sablenite snorlax is still a fine everything blanket.
 

drampa's grandpa

turtonator's gurtonator
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
:ss/terrakion:
Terrakion is now BANNED from STABmons + Almost Any Ability
Terrakion's incredible dual STABs, high Attack state, and good Speed tier, combined with the powerful new moves it learns, including but not limited to Head Smash, High Jump Kick, and priority in Accelerock and Mach Punch, push it over the edge as a broken offensive Pokemon capable of filling many roles.
The few counters to Terrakion tend to be passive and easy to exploit. Pokemon such as Doublade, which is pretty much the definitive hard stop to any Terrakion not running Earthquake in most metagame, cannot reliably switch in to Scrappy Terrakion. Magic Guard sets make chip from various sources difficult to wear it down with, as well as allowing it to spam 150 and 130 BP STABs for free. Dauntless Shield Hippowdon stands out as the best and most reliable single counter to Terrakion, with most others losing to at least one of its used sets.

Terrakion's priority means that revenge killing it, especially Swords Dance sets, is extremely difficult as well, because it can simply delete faster Pokemon that don't resist Accelerock (or sometimes Mach Punch) or have much more bulk than the average Pokemon that outspeeds base 108.

The community has overwhelmingly indicated that it wishes for Terrakion to be banned. Goodbye Porthos.

In other news...
:darmanitan: V-Create is one of the next things we're going to be looking at! The main question, as The Number Man pointed out, is whether Darmanitan or V-Create is the main problem.

V-Create:
There are other Fire-type moves around. None of them are nearly as strong as V-Create, but they also don't have nearly as nasty a drawback. For simplicity, I'm sticking with Fire-type physical moves here, as special Fire types haven't proven to be an issue and abusers can't switch types easily here :3

As I look at these moves I'm looking to see if they would replace V-Create to make an overall broken package IF we banned V-Create. I will do the same with the mons: looking to see if we ban Darmanitan see if there would be other broken Fire types.

Pyro Ball: This is overall the best of the power moves post V-Create.
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dauntless Shield Hippowdon in Harsh Sunshine: 199-235 (47.3 - 55.9%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o in Harsh Sunshine: 192-227 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dauntless Shield Jellicent in Harsh Sunshine: 154-182 (38.1 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 204-240 (67.1 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery (this matchup isn't effected)
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dauntless Shield Avalugg in Harsh Sunshine: 288-342 (73 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados in Harsh Sunshine: 311-366 (93.9 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO (Rock Slide OHKOs)
Flare Blitz: Flare Blitz is mostly good on Magic Guard mons, which Fire types tend to be good at. It's most the same as Pyro Ball, just slightly more accurate and with recoil. It does significantly less damage with Magic Guard and LO but is still a good move.
Fire Lash: A good stallbreaking move. I'm not sure what would prefer to run it though.
Heat Crash: Honestly I don't know if anything can effectively run this, but I thought I'd mention it for completeness' sake. In theory it's a good move on the right abuser. That abuser has to be physical, Fire type, and very heavy. And actually good :blobshrug:


Darmanitan::darmanitan:
Darmanitan is by far the strongest Fire type, just in terms of raw damage output (Flareon sucks). However it's not the only viable one now, with both Cinderace and Centiskorch having valuable roles of their own, and Cinderace arguably being just as good or even better than Darmanitan just by nature of being faster than the majority of the metagame.

Cinderace:
The rabbit outpaces much more than Darmanitan, while maintaining very high levels of power.
I'll edit these in later :(


There are other good users, but I'll leave them to others to discuss.

I'm not trying to come to any conclusions, just trying to get the ball rolling. Darmanitan still nails a lot of KOs with Pyro Ball, and doesn't lower its speed to do so. Cinderace KOs a ton with V-Create and does so at a higher speed tier than Darmanitan. I see legitimate arguments for both being the issue, and I haven't even touched on arguments for them not being an issue at all.

The last thing I'll say here is that the abilities I have listed are not comprehensive. You can effectively run Mold Breaker, Tough Claws, Magic Guard, and many other abilities with V-Create abusers. Please don't limit the discussion to Desolate Land V-Create, I was simply using it for power calcs.

:keldeo: Keldeo
Keldeo was recently banned from Almost Any Ability for its ability to nuke walls, particularly with its Tinted Lens sets, practically requiring a double immunity. In STAAAB this problem is magnified by its access to Water Spout and Water Shuriken / Vacuum Wave. However this is a different metagame and we won't be banning it just because AAA did.

There is no alternative to a Keldeo ban (no Water Spout isn't the problem), so the only question I have is: is it problematic enough to ban?

Barring an unforeseen and overwhelming wave of public opinion I plan to initiate a suspect soon (date TBD). Keldeo will be on the ballot, as will some option regarding V-Create / V-Create abusers. Please use the time until the suspect is fully announced to discuss how you'd like to see the Fire-type vote take shape.
 
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:ss/terrakion:
Terrakion is now BANNED from STABmons + Almost Any Ability

In other news...
:darmanitan: V-Create is one of the next things we're going to be looking at! The main question, as The Number Man pointed out, is whether Darmanitan or V-Create is the main problem.



Pyro Ball: This is overall the best of the power moves post V-Create.
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dauntless Shield Hippowdon in Harsh Sunshine: 199-235 (47.3 - 55.9%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o in Harsh Sunshine: 192-227 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dauntless Shield Jellicent in Harsh Sunshine: 154-182 (38.1 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 204-240 (67.1 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery (this matchup isn't effected)
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dauntless Shield Avalugg in Harsh Sunshine: 288-342 (73 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados in Harsh Sunshine: 311-366 (93.9 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO (Rock Slide OHKOs)
Flare Blitz: Flare Blitz is mostly good on Magic Guard mons, which Fire types tend to be good at. It's most the same as Pyro Ball, just slightly more accurate and with recoil. It does significantly less damage with Magic Guard and LO but is still a good move.
Fire Lash: A good stallbreaking move. I'm not sure what would prefer to run it though.
Heat Crash: Honestly I don't know if anything can effectively run this, but I thought I'd mention it for completeness' sake. In theory it's a good move on the right abuser. That abuser has to be physical, Fire type, and very heavy. And actually good :blobshrug:


Darmanitan::darmanitan:
Darmanitan is by far the strongest Fire type, just in terms of raw damage output (Flareon sucks). However it's not the only viable one now, with both Cinderace and Centiskorch having valuable roles of their own, and Cinderace arguably being just as good or even better than Darmanitan just by nature of being faster than the majority of the metagame.

:keldeo: Keldeo
Keldeo was recently banned from Almost Any Ability for its ability to nuke walls, particularly with its Tinted Lens sets, practically requiring a double immunity. In STAAAB this problem is magnified by its access to Water Spout and Water Shuriken / Vacuum Wave. However this is a different metagame and we won't be banning it just because AAA did.

There is no alternative to a Keldeo ban (no Water Spout isn't the problem), so the only question I have is: is it problematic enough to ban?

Barring an unforeseen and overwhelming wave of public opinion I plan to initiate a suspect soon (date TBD). Keldeo will be on the ballot, as will some option regarding V-Create / V-Create abusers. Please use the time until the suspect is fully announced to discuss how you'd like to see the Fire-type vote take shape.
First of all, glad that Terrakion is officially banned so I don't have to manually ban it on request anymore.

Second, some thoughts on Darm Pyro Ball (PB) calcs. You added Kommo as one of possible walls for Band PB under sun but that set had zero defense investment. I think the most common Kommo set has been physdef Pheal Body Press + Rocks, with different speed creep values. 24 speed hits 212 which outspeeds Band Darm after a VC, 56 hits 220 which outspeeds max speed Adamant Incin and 164 hits 247 which outspeeds Band Ace after a VC. Example (HP invest maximises pheal recovery):
:Kommo-o:
Kommo-o (M) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 244 HP / 240 Def / 24 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Protect

252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Pyro Ball vs. 244 HP / 240+ Def Kommo-o in Sun: 144-171 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
This calc is honestly still terrifying but protect lets you stall for recovery and after an iron defense you win 1v1 easily.

Third Arcanine and Incineroar could both have a place in the metagame - arcanine can run pixilate band to pressure all the dragons that are popular currently as well as more standard desoland sets, while Incineroar has a useful secondary typing and access to SD + Vcreate.

Fourth, Keldeo. I've mentioned this in the mashups chat before, but Keldeo honestly felt more restrictive in teambuilding than Terrak. Personally, when it came to dealing w Terrak I usually just accepted losing one whenever it came in and slapped a Triage mon on the team to be able to revenge easily. With Keldeo, the fact that you can make mons that blank most of it's sets (water absorb/desoland ghosts or 4x fighting resists) kinda pressures you into doing just that - which feels restrictive. In that case what happens is Keldeo either runs through your team or gets invalidated by a mon designed specifically to counter it. While most of these are pretty limited in use other than checking Keldeo, Real PHeal Spheal has made some nice Desoland Ghost sets which actually function as good wallbreakers in their own right while conveniently checking Keldeo as well.

In conclusion, I feel like Vcreate is more likely to be the problem factor than Darm itself, as for Keldeo, its presence in the meta puts a lot of pressure on teambuilding, despite being quite easily blanked by specific mons - which makes it bannable.
 
I'd like to chime in, but my phone is at 6% battery so I'll have to make it short.

Keldeo is extremely restrictive and while its' counterplay exists and has merit, this turns Keldeo from unwallably broken BS into an extremely Matchup-dependent mon at best which has no merit for the meta at all. I'm for a ban.

Having run LO Mguard fblitz darm already, I'm fairly certain that the problem here is Vcreate and Vcreate alone. Fblitz/Pball on darm are strong, but only on a similar level to other breakers and can be dealt with by blanket checks.

I'm glad Terrak is banned, not much to say on that mon except it was hella broken.

Also where's my triage suspect, that ability is broken

PHeal My Body (Umbreon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Mummy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Parting Shot
- Court Change
- Foul Play

Mummy to surprise chunk PHealers and rob dangerous mons like triage users of their ability, though umbreons typing means it often sacks itself to triage.
Works well as general purpose pivot too, not much likes losing its ability

NOC's Finest (Togekiss) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Strange Steam
- Defog
- Heal Bell

Set stolen from NOC Unlucky 13 , this beats about any relevant fire type and then some fighting types too, amazing mon rn

Them Swords (Doublade) @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Sacred Sword
- Spectral Thief

this was supposed to be the meme terrak answer but it ended up beating alot more mons too, turns out the typing chart's immunity and resist list doesnt lie

Let It Go (Froslass) (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Moongeist Beam
- Weather Ball
- Destiny Bond

One of the keldeo checks The Number Man mentioned, this p much just comes in, invalidates keld and clicks moves

Tactical Luke (Lucario) @ Life Orb
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Close Combat
- Meteor Mash
- Swords Dance

Tinted luke, experimental wallbreaker that didnt let me down yet, although just a teensy bit more power to 2hko mandi with cc could be nice

Big Broken (Escavalier) @ Life Orb
Ability: Triage
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Leech Life
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Sunsteel Strike

Triage abuser of choice, ends games way too often and rks almost anything
 
Announcement
:ss/melmetal:

Melmetal is now banned from AAA, and this will affect our AAA-based Mashup. However, this will not be immediately affect STAAABmons for the time being unless we or they (because I lacked enough contribution on the spotlight and just focuses more on LC Mashups) decided to ban it as well. This could possibly due to that we should be focusing on Keldeo or Darm/V-Create first (or other problematic things).

In other news...
Other LC BH resources will be in huge delay, including setpedia and a small guide (sorry). LC Mashups Sample Team should be up for, perhaps, next 2 weeks.

Edit: Forgot to include this.

Shadow Tag is now banned from Mix and Mega, and both Gothorita and Gothitelle are freed from said metagame. And of course, this will affect MnM-based Mashups such as STAB n Mega.
 
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